Home > Analysis, language, media, News > All your Schadenfreude are belong to us?

All your Schadenfreude are belong to us?

 

Lecturing others amounts to schadenfreude
Wait. What?

 

An interesting phenomenon seems to be in the air. With the current financial crisis in America and unrest in Britain, it appears that multiple western media outlets cannot resist the temptation to interpret China’s and other countries’ responses in terms of “schadenfreude“. Although not as amusing as accusing the politburo of smoking weed, it certainly has all the qualities that characterize the distinct flavours of garrulous western reporting about China and Asia in general.
In response to the crises in Washington, Xinhua, in a much cited phrase (One that the international media has gone completely gaga over), called upon the US to “cure its addiction to debt” . This was interpreted by The Economist as schadenfreude, claiming that “regional celebrations” have erupted in Asia over the debt crisis. It further crowed:

 

Commenting on the debt-ceiling fiasco in Washington, DC, Xinhua took American politicians to task, and asked: “How can Washington shake off electoral politics and get difficult jobs done more efficiently?” But it is hard now for even the most nationalist Chinese commentators to go to town about the superiority of the “Beijing model”. One of its supposed advantages is precisely that it “gets difficult jobs done more efficiently”. And one example it used to point to as a source of pride was the world-beating high-speed train system. Whoops.

 

The Economist, in its standard Modus Operandi of never letting the truth get in the way of a witty statement, could not resist the temptation of engaging in a bit of “schadenfreude” of its own. This particular sentiment, though not unique to The Economist, seems to be spreading in the western media like cheap porn – raising doubts over the entire Chinese system of government due to a single accident.

 

The second consideration dampening the regional celebrations is that many Asian countries are suffering from serious problems of their own. Of the three biggest, both Indonesia and, more acutely, India, are facing crises of confidence over their government’s failure to deal with corruption at the heart of their political systems. Even China is facing a rash of political protests. In particular, the fury caused by the high-speed train crash at Wenzhou in July, in which at least 40 people died, has raised troubling questions about the railways’ safety and, more broadly, about the political system itself.

 

One can only wonder whether it prefers the Indian model over the Chinese one. Presumably, while the author of that particular article quipped “The West’s economic woes are also Asia’s”, it did not strike his/her schadenfreude-ridden mind that that might be the reason for the so-called lecturing of the Chinese government.The Economist seems to have forgotten its own words: “The messenger’s morals are not a reason to ignore the message”.

The Guardian, not to be outdone, engages in a rhetoric of its own, claiming that international onlookers have been begun to “revel in schadenfreude.”

The National labeled a statement of bitter truth uttered by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, as “gloating”, when he said, “British politicians should look to help their own people instead of invading Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya to plunder their oil. Even if one hundredth of these crimes were to happen in countries opposed to the West, the UN and other organisations claiming to defend human rights would vehemently decry it.”

And these are just some of the reactions. A Google news search for “schadenfreude” reveals that more and more journalists and analysts (including Joshua Keating) continue to make fools of themselves, in an attempt to deligitimize such opinions (much like using scare quotes). Such elements in the international media seem to have succumbed to the oldest psychological malady in the book – labeling others’ opinions negatively to shift focus from the message to the messenger.

Schadenfreude 101
In all of the reactions above that have been labelled as “schadenfreude“, there is a stark absence of the very quality that defines the term – pleasure. Nowhere, in any of the statements quoted above, does it seem clear, to even the most inhuman of journalists, that Asian commentators or the Asian media are deriving pleasure – in any sense of the word – from the misfortunes of the west. Presumably, when a passenger lectures the driver on just narrowly avoiding hitting a passerby, he is also engaging in “schadenfreude“.

As far as I can remember, the world’s press (including the Chinese) has never used the word “schadenfreude” to describe the west’s reactions to any unrest in China or any other Asian country, perhaps because, in their minds, that criticism is legitimate. The journalists of The Economist, a newspaper that prides itself on “the quality of its writing”, might want to remember that “lecturing” or “advice” is not schadenfreude. If it was, they themselves would have been experten in it.

 

(originally posted at India’s China blog)
  1. zack
    August 25th, 2011 at 01:13 | #1

    if they expected schadenfreude, let them feel the schadenfreude; they certainly didn’t let up on the patronising during the 97 east asian financial crisis.

  2. raventhorn2000
    August 25th, 2011 at 07:08 | #2

    Schadenfreude apparently happens here too.

    For example, http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2011/08/broken-steam-valve-of-democracy-explodes-in-uk-and-other-places/#comment-43479

    Where, my post on UK’s riot and Democracy was called “gloating” by C. Custer.

  3. August 25th, 2011 at 19:25 | #3

    Not related to the topic, but for all HH commenters to read — just posting it here because this comment thread is relatively short.

    Following a rather long exchange with Raventhorn last night, which I’d encourage you all to read here, it occurred to me that increasingly, my participation in this site is pointless, and serves only to waste time I could be spending on much more productive things.

    And yet, I find arguing with some of you quite addictive, in the manner of fast-food or something else that’s temporarily satisfying but ultimately unfulfilling and probably bad for you.

    Unfortunately, it’s really time I don’t have. As some of you know, I have a full time job in addition to two regular freelance gigs, and I’m also working on a feature length documentary film. My participation in “discussions” here where I am repeatedly bashed and no one is willing to admit they’re wrong (see, for example, the above linked comment thread, in which I note several places where Raven is categorically, demonstrably wrong and he completely ignores it) is actually hurting those things, especially the film, as I’m spending my free time here instead of translating interview transcripts and other much more useful work.

    So, I’ve installed a website blocker in Chrome, and in a few minutes, I’m going to use it to block this site. I may turn it off from time to time and come back to see what you all are up to, but my regular participation in HH comment threads will end with this comment. I’m sure you’re all crushed. I’m equally sure that some among you will crow that I am “running away” because I’ve been “defeated”. Again, I urge you to read the comment thread I linked above, and see for yourself exactly why I feel that discussing things here is just a waste of my time.

    To the (few) of you who I was able to engage with in intelligent discussion, thanks. And to all of you, if you’d like to continue discussions with me, you’re welcome to visit ChinaGeeks. I know it can be scary to venture outside the bubble where everyone agrees with you, but there’s fun to be had there — ask your more courageous friend pug_ster about it. Or you can always contact me via email.

    One final thing: I made a suggestion on the charities page, and I hope you’ll seriously consider it. It’s an excellent cause, and I’ve been there personally, so I know that it’s all on the level. (Similarly, you might reconsider your recommendation of the Red Cross….)

  4. pug_ster
    August 25th, 2011 at 19:52 | #4

    C Custer,

    Excuses, excuses, you’ll be back. I’m sure that if I want more Schadenfreude, I will go to chinageeks.

  5. August 25th, 2011 at 20:08 | #5

    Maitreya,

    Interesting post. This notion of Schadenfreude in the international scene may arise from elements deep within the human psyche. People who live in developed, first world nations – being generally well-off – should feel well off, yet many don’t. Part of the reason is because the sense of well-being, of happiness, often derives from relative wealth, not absolute wealth. As the study noted, quoting John Stuart, “Men do not desire to be rich, but to be richer than other men.” Thus as people get richer, they don’t necessarily feel more well-off, because as they become richer, their “peers” become the richer, too, prompting a never-ending chase of becoming richer that brings little satisfaction.

    Does this explain the schadenfreude that derives from the suffering or setback of other peoples, cultures, and governments? Must people in the developed world feel good only when most of the rest of the world is doing bad?

    This notion of Schadenfreude reminds me the related – perhaps cliche (depending on your point of view) notion of “win-win” currently espoused by the Chinese gov’t. If the geopolitical of every nation is to be the top dog – or top x percentile – then geopolitical – or geopolitical based – discussions will always be zero sum in nature. One can do well only at others’ expense; others doing well can only be interpreted as a potential threat. If this is the foundation of geopolitical discussions, then we are always going to live in an unstable, essentially confrontational world.

    I hope we can break out of this type of thinking into win-win. Consider even something that seems so zero sum like the territorial dispute between India and China. One might think such disputes (land is limited after all) must be zero sum. What is India’s gain has to be China’s loss and vice versa. If one focuses only on the land, I agree. But if one looks at the big picture of strategic trust and economic integration and the synergies that can be gained from China and India working together based on mutual trust – how we divide the land is only a small piece – it’s only a step that enables the bigger things – the strategic synergies from which flow unprecedented win-win – not zero sum…

  6. Gregory
    August 25th, 2011 at 20:35 | #6

    @C. Custer
    This guy sounds like a total douchebag. Who the hell posts just to ‘announce’ that he’s deciding to boycott a website? Oh great you have a job…so do a lot of people. No one begged you to drop in and offer your two cents

  7. raventhorn2000
    August 26th, 2011 at 06:05 | #7

    @Gregory

    He’s not the only one, few others regularly threaten to go elsewhere, and then come back after a few weeks or months.

  8. raventhorn2000
    August 26th, 2011 at 07:08 | #8

    In the interest of fairness, I suggest to other moderators that we allow Custer’s “last” fuming spam (sounds like a terrible dish), even if it is completely irrelevant to the current thread and should be in the “open forum” if at all, even if his personal gripe is with me.

    Just so that nobody will say that I abuse my authority as a moderator in threatening to ban people, I let him griped on my thread all he wanted, and all he could with various inferences/assumptions/implications.

    OK, back to a REAL topic.

  9. raventhorn2000
    August 26th, 2011 at 08:35 | #9

    RE: DL and the Exile Tibetans,

    I attach a link to a Spiegel article that actually detailed quite a bit of the Exile Community’s own “double talk”.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,782329-3,00.html

    During the 2008 popular uprising in Lhasa and other regions in the Chinese-controlled territory, many Tibetans died at the hands of brutal police officers and plainclothes security forces. But the violence was not one-sided. Tibetans, apparently encouraged by fellow Tibetans in exile, destroyed Chinese businesses. And the recent self-immolations of Tibetan monks in China are also not without precedent. As an act of protest, a member of the TYC set himself on fire in India a few years ago. And the TYC leadership is currently staging a hunger strike in New Delhi in protest against the siege of the Kirti monastery.

    Violence against others, as well as violence against one’s own body, is forbidden in Buddhism, and the Dalai Lama condemned the acts of protest. Sangay agrees with him, but he also expresses “great understanding for the courage of my fellow Tibetans, who are understandably outraged and distraught,” and says that he respects their actions. He is performing a careful balancing act, as he tries to reconcile the highly contradictory positions in his community.

    “I also welcome the intervention of the United Nations in Ivory Coast and Libya,” says the new premier, “and I call upon the world to intervene in our cause, as well.”

    Is Sangay seriously calling for an armed international campaign on behalf of Tibet, within the internationally recognized borders of the People’s Republic of China?

    “No, no, not military,” he adds. He is careful not to portray himself as an unrealistic dreamer. “But Tibet should become the subject of serious negotiations at a level that would involve presidents and prime ministers,” he says. “The whole world is morally and politically obligated to get involved.” He believes that the revolutions in the Arab world could become a model in China. “Wherever there is repression, there is always resistance. But I do not advise my fellow Tibetans who are oppressed in the People’s Republic to use violence.”

  10. Pete North
    August 26th, 2011 at 09:03 | #10

    How’s the “fostering a community of intellectual and influential citizens from around the world interested in China to comment, discuss, praise or critique” working for you guys?

    Must suck being Americans, but keep up the good work.

  11. raventhorn2000
    August 26th, 2011 at 09:15 | #11

    Pete North :How’s the “fostering a community of intellectual and influential citizens from around the world interested in China to comment, discuss, praise or critique” working for you guys?
    Must suck being Americans, but keep up the good work.

    Better than elsewhere, that’s for sure. We just had Custer do his massive “critique” on this forum, which he encourage everyone to read! (But sadly, he doesn’t seem to believe anyone is listening to what he is saying. Or at least, he seems to equate “critique” and “listening” to “agreement”).

    But hey, we let him have his soapbox moments, even with his F bombs.

    And I don’t know why you are gloating over “Americans”, or for what. It’s not like you have said anything about Americans worth gloating.

    Maybe you are missing the whole concept of “Schadenfreude”.

    :)

  12. Charles Liu
    August 26th, 2011 at 10:08 | #12

    @raventhorn2000 2008 popular uprising in Lhasa

    Yeah, about that. If popular means popular with western governments, yes the unrest coincided with Beijing Olympics was “popular”:

    http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56145

    “German Foreign Ministry front organization is playing a decisive role in the preparations of the anti-Chinese Tibet campaign. According to this information, the campaign is being orchestrated from a Washington based headquarters.”

    If this is true, it’s beyond Schadenfreude, more like Elendmachen.

  13. raventhorn2000
    August 26th, 2011 at 10:25 | #13

    @Charles Liu

    I think it’s called Fallacy of composition: assuming that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole.

    For example, putting “popular” and “uprising” together in the label, that in itself is a Fallacy of composition, to infer that because it was (a) popular by some definition for some motives/goals, and (b) it was an uprising, therefore, OVERALL it must be a “popular uprising”.

    … instead of analyzing the entirety of the event to determine whether it was a “popular uprising”, and completely discounting glaring loss of civilian lives it caused, which was hardly “popular” in the aftermath, not even to the Dalai Lama.

    It’s again, Ridiculous.

    It’s like saying, my Ford Pinto was a Great Car, because it was great when I 1st bought it way back then, (regardless of how it ultimately turned out to be a piece of junk).

    Newsflash to moronic journalists at Spiegel, something is NOT popular merely because it started out as “popular” among a small group of people.

    By that logic, Bush Jr. was a very “popular” president in US history!! LOL!

  14. August 26th, 2011 at 18:21 | #14

    @C. Custer

    May I engage in Schadenfreude at CC’s announced departure? Bitte schön?

    I’ll refrain from further comment at this time since it seems like CC’s announcement itself may be off-topic and relocated.

    BTW, I love Maitreya’s article a lot. The title is really funny.

  15. August 27th, 2011 at 22:40 | #15

    Thank you everyone for commenting.

    @Allen
    That’s an interesting point. The notion of being rich is certainly influenced by how “rich” (or not, as the case may be) others in our vicinity are.

    The Chinese government most certainly does espouse a win-win philosophy as much as it can. On the other hand, doing well at others’ expense and a win-lose philosophy is in fact current US policy. (Of course, there will always be people who will argue that the reality is not that simple, but in the end, this is what it boils down to. )

    The Sino-Indian border dispute is a textbook example of this sort of thing at work. As I have discussed in some detail here and here, the Indian negotiating stance, as far is publicly known, amounts to a zero-sum game – India wants ALL the disputed territory. China, on the other hand, on numerous occasions, had offered to settle the dispute with a deal that was in India’s favor by a land-area ratio of around 3:1, i.e. of converting the current status-quo borders into the international boundary.

  16. August 27th, 2011 at 23:01 | #16

    In a recent article, one correspondent of The Economist characterized China’s defending itself from the Pentagon’s latest annual report on the Chinese military, as “thumping furiously on the table”, and then went on to describe it as the China’s preferred choice for “convincing the world of its pacific intent”. Presumably, the correspondent reasons, that if a country tries to defend itself from another country’s (false) assessment of its military, it is sounding as aggressive to its neighbors. Perhaps The Economist assumes that if China had just stayed quiet, or even better, praised the Pentagon report, it would have created a better impression of pacific intent. ;-)

  17. Pete North
    August 27th, 2011 at 23:22 | #17

    So you see nothing in the middle between ‘thumping furiously on the table’, and praising the report?
    How about saying nothing?

  18. raventhorn2000
    August 28th, 2011 at 08:45 | #18

    @Pete North

    Good point. How about Pentagon just shut up and say nothing?

  19. August 29th, 2011 at 03:21 | #19

    So you see nothing in the middle between ‘thumping furiously on the table’, and praising the report?

    Indeed I do, which is why I mentioned “staying quiet” as an option i.e. ignoring the report completely.

  20. Pete North
    August 29th, 2011 at 04:33 | #20

    Indeed, great idea. If the report is so clearly inaccurate then surely intelligent people can discover that for themselves. The report will stand on its own truth or falsity. Having a hissy fit doesn’t win anyone over.

  21. raventhorn2000
    August 29th, 2011 at 05:37 | #21

    Great idea, the report doesn’t say anything more factual than what intelligent people already know. So the Pentagon having a hissy fit, as it does all the time, doesn’t win anyone over.

  22. Pete North
    August 29th, 2011 at 09:10 | #22

    SO…if the Pentagon is really just having a ‘hissy fit’, why the need to comment?

  23. raventhorn2000
    August 29th, 2011 at 10:26 | #23

    Just to point out that Pentagon was having a “hissy fit”. Thus, Chinese government called the Pentagon report a “cock and bull story”.

    Why are you having a “hissy fit” over China’s “comment”??

  24. Pete North
    August 29th, 2011 at 17:29 | #24

    I don’t theoretically speak on behalf of the worlds most populous nation, nor am I commenting on a report from the worlds most powerful and influential nation. I am an individual, and any hissy fit I may have will potentially reflect poorly on myself among the people I know. The Chinese government, depending on how they act and comment, reflect on 1.x billion people. Can you see the difference now?

  25. Al
    August 29th, 2011 at 17:45 | #25

    Nope, cause ur hissy fit is dictated by dynamics completely different from those which prompted the supposedly hissy fit of Chinese government…can u see the difference now?

  26. raventhorn2000
    August 29th, 2011 at 17:49 | #26

    @Pete North

    Yeah well, Hissy fit by “the worlds most powerful and influential nation” reflects US’s insecurity quite nicely, Despite its $650 Billion per year in defense department budget.

    ( as 1.x billion people in China pointed out)!

    :)

  27. Pete North
    August 29th, 2011 at 17:57 | #27

    Can you quote me some specific passages in the report which you consider use ‘hissy fitesque’ language?

    Maybe something like ‘…..hurts the feelings of the 300 million American people’ or ‘meddling in American internal affairs’

  28. raventhorn2000
    August 29th, 2011 at 18:07 | #28

    Oh, you don’t like “feelings” and “autonomy”?! I thought Chinese people have those “rights”.

    Hissy fit example: “potentially destabilizing”.

    Oh, is China rocking your boat too much??!! Whiners!!

  29. Pete North
    August 29th, 2011 at 19:12 | #29

    I can’t see how ‘potentially destablising’ counts as hissy fit kind of language. Doesn’t appear to be overly emotional or anything, but I guess you see what you want to see

    Rocking my boat? Not at all. I live in China anyway. Is that how it feels to you guys, you know as people who chose to become Americans?

  30. silentvoice
    August 30th, 2011 at 03:29 | #30

    Reading some of your posts, you seems to dislike China quite abit (the Chinese Government IS part of China). So maybe you should consider moving.

  31. raventhorn2000
    August 30th, 2011 at 05:29 | #31

    “I can’t see how ‘potentially destablising’ counts as hissy fit kind of language. Doesn’t appear to be overly emotional or anything, but I guess you see what you want to see.”

    That would explain yourself, that you see what you want to see. Whatever keeps you up at night. Enjoy.

    “Is that how it feels to you guys, you know as people who chose to become Americans?”

    You should know, you chose to to become American. You don’t speak for me, so you must be ONLY speaking “on behalf of” yourself, as you previously admitted.

    Why are you “hissy fitting” about other people??! Why can’t you just “say nothing”, like you suggested for yourself??! :)

  32. Pete North
    August 30th, 2011 at 17:34 | #32

    ‘Reading some of your posts, you seems to dislike China quite abit (the Chinese Government IS part of China). So maybe you should consider moving.’

    Maybe I will move at some stage. If its any consolation, I least I didn’t actually give up my original passport and become a Chinese citizen…..

    ‘You should know, you chose to to become American. You don’t speak for me, so you must be ONLY speaking “on behalf of” yourself, as you previously admitted.’

    Your habit of lying or being mistaken is not a particularly good trait raven. I’ve never said either that I am American, nor God forbid that I speak on your behalf. You have democratically elected leaders who do that for you…

  33. raventhorn2000
    August 30th, 2011 at 19:12 | #33

    “Your habit of lying or being mistaken is not a particularly good trait raven. I’ve never said either that I am American, nor God forbid that I speak on your behalf. You have democratically elected leaders who do that for you…”

    Well, I know you don’t speak on my behalf, that’s no lie. Why do you hissy fit about that?!

  34. raventhorn2000
    August 30th, 2011 at 19:14 | #34

    @Pete North

    If you don’t speak on my behalf, why do you pretend you know anything about me? That’s you lying your face off while having hissy fit.

  35. denk
    August 30th, 2011 at 19:47 | #35

    when the world’s no 1 war mongering nation feel free to question china or any other counry’s military preparedness
    only a psychopath would be unable to see thru its stunning hypocrisy
    http://tinyurl.com/4xsg9rv
    whats more , true to its racist form, the assholes at economist managed to bark up the wrong tree n implied that the chinese are throwing a fit
    well i am not surprised, like i said, they deleted all my 3 comments within mins of posting.

    ever consider working for the economist p north ?
    i’m sure it beats banging ur head against the wall here any time

  36. denk
    August 30th, 2011 at 21:32 | #36

    as for the assholes at economists *barking up the wrong tree*…..
    http://tinyurl.com/3o7gxgh
    i guess its kinda natural for them hehehe

  37. silentvoice
    August 31st, 2011 at 00:33 | #37

    Pete North :
    ‘Reading some of your posts, you seems to dislike China quite abit (the Chinese Government IS part of China). So maybe you should consider moving.’
    Maybe I will move at some stage. If its any consolation, I least I didn’t actually give up my original passport and become a Chinese citizen…..
    ‘You should know, you chose to to become American. You don’t speak for me, so you must be ONLY speaking “on behalf of” yourself, as you previously admitted.’
    Your habit of lying or being mistaken is not a particularly good trait raven. I’ve never said either that I am American, nor God forbid that I speak on your behalf. You have democratically elected leaders who do that for you…

    @Pete North:

    See? There lies a major difference between you and most Chinese people. For the most part, Chinese are able to settle almost everywhere around the world. They don’t bring their prejudices with them are able to accept the political and cultural ethos of their adopted country. You on the other hand, come to China with an aloof attitude and at every chance attacks the system. Do you see Allen, YinYang and other Chinese-Americans proclaim the universality of the Chinese culture or communist system of government? No, but you do that to us.

    Oh yeah, if you leave China, don’t bother coming to Southeast Asia too, I guarantee you won’t like it here. And we don’t want you here.

  38. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 02:02 | #38

    ‘silent’ your comment is lacking in any specific details so is nothing but hot air. Chinese dont bring their prejudices with them when they move to other countries? Really? They are able to just leave them all at the airport eh? How wonderfully convenient, I wonder why all the worlds people can’t do this….As for Allen, YinYang et el, why would I expect them to extol the virtues of Chinese culture or systems…they voted with their feet and clearly made a choice as to which system they preferred when they handed in theirin previous passports, along with the many thousands of their ex- countrymen who apply every year…
    ‘attack the system’ I guess one of the major differences between myself and most of you guys is that I actually live here and have to try and work with the system, whereas it’s much easier for you guys who can deny or play down the problems, or are ignorant of them.
    You worried I can bring down the system with my “attacks” silent?

    BTW I love SE Asia, in fact I lived in the Philippines for 2 years. Wonderful people

  39. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 05:25 | #39

    “As for Allen, YinYang et el, why would I expect them to extol the virtues of Chinese culture or systems…they voted with their feet and clearly made a choice as to which system they preferred when they handed in theirin previous passports, along with the many thousands of their ex- countrymen who apply every year…”

    Maybe your “feet” are where your brain and heart are located at, not mine. My brain remembers all the places I have been, and where I was born.

    (And my “feet” locates in China part of every year, I still have a home in China. HAHA).

  40. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 05:28 | #40

    “You worried I can bring down the system with my “attacks” silent?”

    Boring! your “hissy fit” is getting really old. You must be REALLY frustrated if you are bringing your whining into this forum (full of people who you think don’t even live in China). Gee, how hard are you working “with the system”??!! NOT!!

  41. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 05:50 | #41

    How does it feel coming back to China on a tourist visa and queuing up in the foreigners line?

    Must suck losing your Chinese “political rights” too.
    BTW do you still remember this by heart ‘I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God’?

  42. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 06:07 | #42

    @Pete North

    I don’t know what your US citizenship oath has to do with me, or this thread.

    You are off topic and spamming this forum.

    Move on, or get lost, SPAMMER.

  43. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 06:09 | #43

    Serious question for you guys……What would you do if China and America went to war, and you were called up, as American citizens for the US Armed forces to help in the war effort?

  44. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 06:11 | #44

    Raven, I told you about the lying already….. You’re not in Henan now….

  45. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 06:18 | #45

    @Pete North

    Right back at you about your lying already. You obviously know US citizenship oath SO WELL. LOL! :)

  46. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 06:21 | #46

    @Pete North

    Quit SPAMMING this forum with your ridiculous personal questions.

    If you really want the question answered, answer it yourself 1st, “What would you do if China and America went to war??”

    :)

  47. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 06:46 | #47

    “Right back at you about your lying already. You obviously know US citizenship oath SO WELL. LOL!”

    I Baidu’ed it man. Seems a popular search here. Must be lots of people here studying up…

    ‘If you really want the question answered, answer it yourself 1st, “What would you do if China and America went to war??”
    OK, I’ll answer it first, I like this game. I’d sit back and watch on CCTV-1. But than I’m not someone who used to be Chinese, but then gave the pledge of allegiance and became an American.

    So, how about you?

  48. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 06:54 | #48

    @Pete North

    “I’d sit back and watch on CCTV-1.”

    Wow, you are a cold heartless human being. War, and you just “sit back and watch”?

    Oh, I forget, Americans like yourself enjoy watching War on TV. :)

    See you just gave yourself away. :)

  49. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 07:16 | #49

    Its crap playing this game with you. You never answered the question, but more importantly you aren’t even funny. Oh well, at least you’re not one of those kinds of Americans that no one likes- the kind that always insists on having the last word.

  50. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 07:20 | #50

    @Pete North

    That’s a laugh. You are the one constantly having “hissy fits”, and now you think you were playing a “game”?

    Who agreed to play this “game” with you?? I certainly didn’t. (You wanted to ask an irrelevant question to other people. And I told you to answer it yourself. I didn’t say I was going to answer it if you answered it. LOL!)

    This is a forum for serious topics, not a place for your ridiculous irrelvant “games”.

    Oh, Boo-hoo, people aren’t playing the “game” the way Pete North wants to. Waa….

    Get lost, SPAMMING Troll!!

  51. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 07:25 | #51

    Serious topics discussed by Han Neo- Nazi American idiots.
    Btw, you said answer it ’1st’. So who is second? Any volunteers?

    I really am starting to wonder if you are from Henan

  52. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 07:36 | #52

    @Pete North

    Troll begging a “second” for volunteers for his “game”? Keep waiting.

    “I really am starting to wonder if you are from Henan”.

    Who said I was from “Henan”? Where did you get that from??

    Yeah, keep “wondering” your own fantasies!! OK.

    “Han Neo- Nazi American idiots”

    yeah, OK, that phrase doesn’t even make sense. You are clearly just ranting non-sense now!

  53. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 08:22 | #53

    Hey raven, I’ll do you a deal. I’ll stop posting if you can manage to stop yourself from having the last word….OK?

  54. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 08:30 | #54

    @Pete North

    I don’t make personal deals with Trolls.

    Your posts are off topic and irrelevant. Just stop your “hissy fits” and move on.

    You are just wasting bandwidth here. You know where this is all going. Eventually, the Moderators here will just delete your SPAM posts (like the last time, http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2011/07/on-chinese-language-dialects-and-chinese-people/#comment-43013).

    Wise up and give up, Troll.

  55. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 08:49 | #55

    Surely you wont delete my posts. I thought you American believed in free speech…
    Another question for you guys. How do you feel knowing your tax dollars are going to fund wars in other countries?
    Anything you’d like to add raven?

  56. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 08:55 | #56

    “Surely you wont delete my posts. I thought you American believed in free speech…”

    Well, you just continue to prove that you don’t know me very well.

    “Another question for you guys. How do you feel knowing your tax dollars are going to fund wars in other countries?”

    Again, you can answer your own ridiculous questions. But you just keep on “hissy fitting”, don’t you? What business is it yours how anyone “feels” about their own tax money?

  57. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 17:31 | #57

    I personally think you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Funding wars and causing trouble all over the world. Supporting such evil organisations as NED, and the CIA to destabilize other countries including China by supporting the DL and Taiwan independence forces. Bad enough for someone born American. But for you guys who chose to be American for your own benefit, truly disgraceful!

  58. Al
    August 31st, 2011 at 18:36 | #58

    U really are not smart enough to understand u’r making a joke of urself, right Pete?
    The more I read u, the sad ur comments become.

  59. raventhorn2000
    August 31st, 2011 at 18:37 | #59

    @Pete North

    Aww, you are trying so hard to make your imaginary friends feel bad.

    You know, you have some aweful imaginary friends, and your life is pretty pathetic, even by imaginary standards.

  60. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 19:20 | #60

    These are reasonable questions, questions which I am sure you have thought about and have the answers to. Since this site is supposed to be a bridge between those who were Chinese, but decided to become Americans, and the rest of the world, then it seems the best place to ask.

    Why do you feel unable to give me straight answers?

  61. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 19:26 | #61

    p north

    tks tsk tsk
    so u do know about cia, ned ?
    but u forgot to mention mi5 !
    like i said, this is an anglo crime syndicate old chap
    every time amerikka made war
    u can bet the brits [the lapdogs] , aussies, canucks etc
    would tag along
    one big happy war making anglophone family ;-)
    i’ve asked u several time, as an anglo what’ve u done to stop this
    scourge of the world instead of chafing at china, one of the biggest
    victim of this anglo crime gang [as per ur own word ]
    n u’ve been avoiding my question dude !

    if the others are gringos
    i think they ought to be proud of themselves
    unlike those *my country right or wrong* rednecks
    they’ve been exposing their counry’s shenanigans against china
    these’re upright folks

    u’re the one who ought to be ashamed for
    barking up the wrong tree all along

  62. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 19:34 | #62

    Why do you assume I’m an ‘anglo’? And what is an Anglo anyway? Do they have their own country? I looked on a map and couldnt find it. Since you guys are American, are you ‘anglo’ too? If America is anglo and war-mongering, why did you choose to join them?

    Help me out tongzhimen..

  63. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:07 | #63

    isnt p north an anglo name ?

    who says i’m a gringo ?

    whether u’re gringo or anglo
    u’ve been barking up the wrong tree thats for sure
    in fact u’ve been blaming the victim all along
    since u know that china has been the victim of cia/ned/mi5

  64. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:15 | #64

    But many of you guys are American, in fact chose to become American. Did you decide it was better to become the bully than remain the bullied? You chose to join a country that causes pain around the world, chose to pay taxes to fund the biggest war machine in history.

    How could you do such a thing?

  65. August 31st, 2011 at 20:27 | #65

    @Pete North
    Being a German citizen doesn’t mean one has to support the Nazi. Noam Chomsky is out spoken enough because he REALLY cares for the well being of USA unlike those war mongers and those that caused the financial meltdown.

    Being patriotic doesn’t mean being blind to the sins of the country. It is you who cannot tell the difference!

  66. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:29 | #66

    P NORTH

    we’ve got an anglo here who for reason best known to himself
    doesnt want to admit it
    lol

    ok i’ll humor u for once
    anglos refers to the inhabitants of england
    these are the world’s most rapacious *property collectors*
    this is much more lucrative than stamp collection
    u can mark my word old chap

    any way these enterprising chaps fanned out from their
    motherland to grab most the the world’s premium real estates
    in america, canada n beyond
    hell u even have 2 anglo land australia n nz smack dab in asia !
    [robbed from the indigenuous as usual]

    see
    angloland = england + all of its war booties
    in fact we need an update pronto
    now it includes kosovo, iraq, afpak, libya n soon …..syria
    very enterprising folks these anglos hehehe

  67. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:38 | #67

    These ‘anglos’ seemed to have created countries that Mainland Chinese love to emigrate to….I get it now. Is it the stolen land they love, or the societies built on looted booty?

    So ray, it’s really me, not denk who cant tell the difference?

  68. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:39 | #68

    god damned it p north insufferable anglo

    i told u i am not a gringo

    n u haven answered my question
    when are u goona petition the bush, blair, howard, camerons, etc etc
    [see , all these are anglos war criminals] to stop raping the world

    instead of make a living [pun not intended]
    outta china bashing here ?

  69. Al
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:48 | #69

    “These ‘anglos’ seemed to have created countries that Mainland Chinese love to emigrate”
    U see Pete, those “anglos” created those lands killing, robbing and raping the natives, and have “developed” them keeping on stealing, oppressing and raping other cultures in other parts of the world (US have lived above its own means for decades now – as Britain has done before it -, simply cause of this, simply living and getting rich on the shoulder of others who became poorer and poorer cause of them).
    Mainland Chinese emigration there and elsewhere is a direct consequence of aformentioned “anglos” colonialism, imperialism and warmongering….
    Pete, really, if u don’t have ANY intelligent argument, it’d be far better if u shut up….for ur own sake.
    Better to shut up and leave people with the doubt ur are a troll and an idiot, than keep on posting and confirm people’s impression beyond and reasonable doubt.

  70. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:48 | #70

    p north

    dude
    i dont know why some chinese wanna immigrate to angloland

    but how does it excuse the anglos ongoing rape of the world
    n how does it excuse u as a hypocrite who blames the victimes ?

  71. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 20:59 | #71

    So….assuming someone was an ‘anglo’ this makes them responsible for every action carried out by people of the same ‘anglo’ ‘race’? Fascinating theory, would you care to expand on it.
    Even Ray clearly disagrees with you…Are you guys really the voice of a ‘new China’?

    And denk….you might want to reread my most recent posts. Comments like ‘ Funding wars and causing trouble all over the world. Supporting such evil organisations as NED, and the CIA to destabilize other countries including China by supporting the DL and Taiwan independence forces. Bad enough for someone born American. ‘ might give you a clue as to who I’m ‘bashing;…

  72. Al
    August 31st, 2011 at 21:16 | #72

    Ahahah, nice try Pete…..U really think there’re people going to believe this little trick of urs? It’s clear as sun that that comment of urs was intended to be ironic and “challenge” the other guys….
    come on….

  73. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 21:19 | #73

    P north
    *So….assuming someone was an ‘anglo’ this makes them responsible for every action carried out by people of the same ‘anglo’ ‘race’? Fascinating theory, would you care to expand on it*

    are u feigning ignorance kid
    i’d say that if i am an anglo, the last thing on my mind would be
    to point finger at others while my tribe has been committing mass murder
    all over the world
    john pilger is a top anglo, he feels ashamed about his tribe’s crimes
    n he has been condemning it for the past 50 yrs
    n u’re are at the bottom rung dude, instead of trying stop the bush, blair, etc
    u camp here bashing the victim china

    as for ur latest *outburst* about amerikka
    its just a sly attempt to embarrass the others
    n it doesnt work
    like i said the others have nothing to be ashamed of
    its u who are the hypo old chap

  74. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 21:35 | #74

    ahhhh, the Victim China. This old peal. Most populous country in the world, 2nd largest economy in the world, with the largest number of military in the world. Yes, all the hallmarks of a ‘victim’

    Interesting that you think my comments that America is a bully who causes trouble around the world are ironic…….personally I think it’s terrible the way America has behaved and it’s foreign policy is generally detestable in its liberal use of military force. That anyone would choose to change their nationality, and join these bullies is simply immoral. Right?

    BTW, can you be a bit less lazy and try typing complete sentences. This isn’t a sexting competition my tongzhimen

  75. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 22:01 | #75

    p north
    *ahhhh, the Victim China. This old peal. Most populous country in the world, 2nd largest economy in the world, with the largest number of military in the world. Yes, all the hallmarks of a ‘victim’*

    why dont u read ur own post
    about cia/ned/mi5 attacks on china ?

    know something, u’ve have been twisting n wriggling like an old eel
    typical of those speak in tougue anglos i’d say

    *Interesting that you think my comments that America is a bully who causes trouble around the world are ironic*

    not ironic, its bs
    if u know about all this
    why have u been bashing china for its *ill treatment* of
    ur *uighur friends*
    instead of calling out the cia/mi5 for another crime against china ?
    http://tinyurl.com/ko58au
    http://tinyurl.com/ykmqc4j

    look
    i dont know what u do for a *living*
    sorry i have got work to do
    btw if this had been a boxing match with a referee
    u’d have been declared koed dozens of time by now

  76. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 22:17 | #76

    ‘instead of calling out the cia/mi5 for another crime against china ?’

    Did you see where I typed… ‘Funding wars and causing trouble all over the world. Supporting such evil organisations as NED, and the CIA to destabilize other countries including China by supporting the DL and Taiwan independence forces’?

    America has, and continues to do some ghastly things. Closer to where I live, and affecting friends and family more directly, China has and continues to do some ghastly things. Just because one country’s government does something bad doesn’t absolve other governments responsibility for the bad things they do.

    Clearer now?
    And since I have been kind enough to answer your questions, how about you guys answer mine? Only fair right
    How about these people who voluntarily hand over their passport to become a citizen of the greatest bully in the world? What does it say about these folks? Are they selling out their countrymen for their own self- interest?

    PS, why are you sending me links that are blocked in China? Clearly they must be illegal. Says a lot about where you are though…clearly not in the PRC…

  77. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 23:29 | #77

    p north
    *Did you see where I typed… ‘Funding wars and causing trouble all over the world. Supporting such evil organisations as NED, and the CIA to destabilize other countries including China by supporting the DL and Taiwan independence forces’?*

    so have u made up ur mind now
    is china a VICTIM of anglo aggression ?
    dont beat about the bush

  78. Pete North
    August 31st, 2011 at 23:36 | #78

    NO, no…..time for YOU guys to answer some questions now. Thats how it works.

    Why did you become Americans when America’s riches are built on the suffering of others, when america’s political system is so deeply flawed and America continue to use its military muscle all around the world, causing untold suffering etc etc etc?

    And I ask again, why the blocked links?

  79. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 23:49 | #79

    dude

    are u blind
    i say im no gringo

  80. denk
    August 31st, 2011 at 23:52 | #80

    N U havent answered my q

    is china a victim of anglo aggression ?
    n stop doing that 3 monkies trick
    the biggest bully in the world is ur anglo clan, the anglophone countries
    led by amerikka
    its not an amerikkan thingee only

  81. Pete North
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:00 | #81

    I can’t understand your engrish man…… ‘gringo, anglo, n,u, monkies, amerikka, q’ Really, WTF?
    Isn’t there some kind of language proficiency test that you guys took before getting your green cards?

    And for the third time, why the blocked links?

  82. denk
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:05 | #82

    i take it that ur silence means consent
    that u admit china is a victim of ur anglo aggression ?

    so here’s the next q [dont be coy babe, u know what im taking about ]
    why have u been bashing china’s security measure in xinjiang
    instead of condemning the instigator of the bloodbath ?

    who blocked which links dude ?

  83. denk
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:09 | #83

    u keep insisting that im a gringo
    if u cant produce proof in 5 mins
    that means u’re a liar

  84. Pete North
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:14 | #84

    Clearly you haven’t been in China a long time dunk. One of the url’s you sent me was for a blogspot link. Blogspot has been blocked in China for years….

    I answered your first questions but you yanks haven’t answered mine yet. Once you guys do this we can move on…America the ‘instigator’ of the Xinjiang riot….haha, clearly you’ve never been to Xinjiang either.
    You need to ask the other Americans on this site about their aggression, not me I’m afraid…try yinyang and so on

  85. denk
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:20 | #85

    kid

    i am posting outside china means im a yank ?
    hey ladies n gentleman
    this p north chap must be a genius hahahaha

  86. denk
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:24 | #86

    SO p north has been proven a psychopath

    as for *dunk*

    ad hominen is the last refuge of a loser
    the guy is gettin desparate ;-)

  87. Al
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:44 | #87

    Poor Pete, come on Denk to be too harsh on him, he’s trying to “save” at least a little face…

  88. denk
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:49 | #88

    al

    p north has been very disingenuous
    n he likes to use circular logic too
    a typical speak in tougue anglo

  89. Al
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:53 | #89

    He uses circular logic cause he doesn’t have anything more in his hands, so he tries to save what he has with this little rhetoric tricks, and ad hominem attacks

  90. denk
    September 1st, 2011 at 00:58 | #90

    AL
    i think p north is a *pro* ;-)

  91. Pete North
    September 1st, 2011 at 17:14 | #91

    Care to stick to answering the questions…namely why did patriotic Chinese such as yourselves return you PRC passports and take American Green cards ? Or are you not patriotic Chinese, merely selfish opportunists?
    Secondly, in event of a war between America and China would you fulfil your pledge to ‘ bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law’ ?

  92. raventhorn2000
    September 1st, 2011 at 18:21 | #92

    Who says one needs to “return PRC passport” to take “American Green card”??

    And who told you that there is a pledge for taking “American Green Card”??

    “Required by the law”?? Do you even know “the law” to even pose such a question??

    Patriotic and decent people do not dream up scenarios of war, (and then sit back and watch).

    At least we know you are just a couch potato. (yeah, work in the system indeed. Right….)

  93. Al
    September 1st, 2011 at 19:17 | #93

    Poor Pete, come on, leave him to his fantasy world, don’t be so harsh on him, he just tries not to completely lose face…

  94. Pete North
    September 1st, 2011 at 20:56 | #94

    Oh so you didnt apply when you were between the ago of 18-25? You are clearly far more well briefed on the process of becoming an American than I…..

    ‘Patriotic and decent people do not dream up scenarios of war’ Since I’m neither Chinese nor American what does patriotism have to do with it?
    A war between America and China may be the rest of the worlds best hope for a better future…..kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

  95. denk
    September 1st, 2011 at 21:21 | #95

    p north
    *A war between America and China may be the rest of the worlds best hope for a better future…..kills 2 birds with 1 stone*

    what has china got to do with this kid ?
    http://tinyurl.com/3bpzss2
    how about a war bet amerikka n its lapdog uk ?

  96. raventhorn2000
    September 2nd, 2011 at 15:39 | #96

    “Oh so you didnt apply when you were between the ago of 18-25? You are clearly far more well briefed on the process of becoming an American than I…..”

    Apply for what? Green Cards don’t require “pledges” or turning PRC passports. You ridiculous questions don’t even make any sense.

    “A war between America and China may be the rest of the worlds best hope for a better future…..kills 2 birds with 1 stone.”

    Oh, who’s the “selfish Opportunist” now? You hope to “kill” both China and America?

    Well, Gee, Now, ANY citizen of US and China should be watching for your “terrorist plots”. I guess now we have you on record, there is nowhere you can hide! :)

  97. scl
    September 7th, 2011 at 11:23 | #97

    @ Pete North,

    Here is my answer to your questions. Assume for a moment that we are all U.S. citizens, or Chinese Americans. We abide by U.S. laws. We pay taxes for the U.S. government. Some probably pay much more than you do. As a whole, Chinese Americans have contributed a lot to the American society. We enjoy the so-called freedom of speech (this is another topic) here. But we are not blind “patriots”. we criticize the injustice rendered by U.S. corporations. We complains about the hypocrisy demonstrated by the U.S. government and U.S. media. And we expose the prejudice about China we see in the U.S. and Western media, as an American, and as an intellectual.

    As for your stupid question which side we will be on if a war breaks out between China and U.S., the simple answer is it depends. It all depends on if the war is just. I will not support a war with the purpose of splitting out parts of the Chinese territory. On the other hand, if Chinese carrier strike groups show up in the San Francisco Bay Area with the intention of invading my homeland, I probably will behave no different from other American patriots.

  98. raventhorn2000
    September 7th, 2011 at 11:46 | #98

    That actually brings an interesting question about the “Oath of Allegiance” taken by naturalized US citizens, purely from an academic point of view in US laws.

    The oath has 3 phrases of performing duties relating to military, with 3 instances of “when required by law”.

    Now, some people simply say that’s just whenever US government declares war, or compels a citizen to perform military related duties.

    However, that’s a simplistic reading of the oath, especially considering that the OATH is not a law, and naturalized US citizens have no more legal requirement in performing duties than native born US citizens (who did not take the oath).

    So, the phrases qualifies with “when required by law”, meaning, if a citizen may still disagree with the interpretation of law by the US government, or conscientiously object to what is considered to be “illegal war”.

    @scl

    In your answer, you illustrate the point. If you believe a war is illegal, then you may choose to refuse to serve (because you believe the war was not “required by law”).

    That’s a very good point.

    Chinese Americans shouldn’t be compelled to serve in any illegal Wars declared by the US government, any more than any other US citizens.

  99. Charles Liu
    September 7th, 2011 at 13:47 | #99

    1) does the slant apply to people who never had PRC passport to begin with?

    2) the oath said “enemy foreign ***AND DOMESTIC***”. US citizens, born or naturalized have the common responsibility to defend our country against war mongors that do not represent patriotic, peace loving Americans.

  100. xian
    September 8th, 2011 at 21:01 | #100

    Well, I for one AM pleased.

    No, I’m not celebrating in the streets, but the West is a competitor. And in competition you must rise above others as well as undermine them. Oh I’m sure it’s sad… for them. But not for me. It’s not personal, that’s just how the world works.

    Besides so far the Chinese model IS better. Much better than their idealistic politicians in DC, much better than their immature whiners rioting in the UK.

  101. raventhorn2000
    September 9th, 2011 at 07:23 | #101

    I read an interesting article from a Western Academic commenting on why extremism ideologies are on the rise in the West.

    His reasoning has some merits. His arguments boil down to that Western traditions are based upon the cultural history of confrontational approach, which is fundamentally uncompromising.

    1 God, no other gods.
    God good, Devil evil.
    Absolute right, vs. Absolute wrongs.

    Western legal system of advocacy itself pushes the interpretation of facts to extremes, to advance 1 side’s cause at the expense of the other.

    The other side is always portrayed as negative as possible.

    The author reasoned, in such a system of cultural history, there cannot be compromises, because to compromise with the other side, is to make a deal with a sinner or a devil, which is equal to committing the sin oneself.

    *In contrast, Eastern cultures tend to view all things as in shades of gray, not in absolutes. “Pure evil” only exists in terms of “intolerable conditions”. (though periods of radical extreme ideas do occur in Eastern histories, such as the Cultural Revolution, they are often in response to other perceived extreme “intolerable conditions”, and they gradually give way back to the “norm” of “shady tolerances”.)

    And that’s the point, in the East, the NORM is a general social/political acceptance of all “shades” of ideas.

    In the West, the NORM is a general polarization of ideas into their “purity” form, which are extremism. Ie. pure “human rights”, pure “democracy”, with NO regard whatsoever to the practical realities.

    We hear such arguments even from our fellow Western commenters in this forum, ie. “Just because US does ___, doesn’t mean it would be right for China to do the same.”

    But the very same Western logic of purity also gets turned back in circular logic, i.e “Because US is pursuing the purity of democracy, it’s progressing, so it’s OK for it to make mistakes such as ____ along the way.”

    Ie. when West does A, it’s NOT OK for China to do A, but because West is pursuing this absolute position, it’s OK for West to make mistakes such as A, and keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

    Much like the Western culture of Extremism, Extremists themselves portray their position as pure and good, and not as extreme and evil.

    But in reality, extremism in the name of good in any form is ultimately Evil. History has proven that over and over again.

  102. raventhorn2000
    September 12th, 2011 at 08:03 | #102

    Egypt and Jordan on high alert around Israeli Embassies, as yesterday’s “peaceful protesters” turn against the military rulers.

    Turkey’s PM visits Egypt stirring the anti-Israel pot in the Middle East.

    * Germany prepares for Greek Default.

  103. raventhorn2000
    September 12th, 2011 at 10:28 | #103

    Turkey threatens to use “freedom of navigation” excuse to, (put it nicely, render impotent), Israel’s Navy.

    Gee, I feel a draft of War blow through the Middle East.

    Looks like the Spin Schadenfreude comes back to US. “Freedom of Navigation” indeed. Hey, Turkey is a member of NATO, afterall.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4121396,00.html

  104. zack
    September 13th, 2011 at 00:46 | #104

    hey raventhorn
    can i get a link to that western academic’s paper? sounds interesting:)

  105. raventhorn2000
    September 13th, 2011 at 06:27 | #105

    I don’t have the link to that article anymore. It has been a while.

  106. raventhorn2000
    September 13th, 2011 at 06:36 | #106

    In the shadow of coming Greek default, US is getting more nervous.

    Italy is asking China to bail it out, sensing that Germany and France will be no help.

    UK is begging Russia to “move on” and help it out with investments.

    Translation: Please, forget yesterday, when we lectured you about your human rights, and lend us some money as “friends”.

    *How mercenary can the West get?

    **I propose China and Russia issue their own “Credit Rating” systems on Western nations, based upon their overuse of “human rights” and “democracy” slogans.

    Ie. EVERY time a Western Politician or Media lies, spins, distorts about non-Western nation issues, fist pump for foreign interventions, war-mongers, etc., China and Russia should “down grade” their nations’ “credit rating” and jack up interest rates of lending to these nations.

    I mean, seriously, ALL of those things Western Nations do, are hurting their own economy.

    So let’s not even pretend US has a AA+ rating, that rating means nothing. US has a lot of baggadge, chaos of wars and terrorism should be reflected in the credit rating!!

  107. zack
    September 13th, 2011 at 08:01 | #107

    excellent idea, raventhorn
    it really disgusts me, the level of hypocrisy western countries have when it comes to China; if they really had a shred of self respect they wouldnt do business with an entity which they perceived as having ‘appalling human rights record’, and yet they do whilst indulging in the same schtick of pretending their shit don’t stink.

  108. raventhorn2000
    September 13th, 2011 at 08:30 | #108

    Absolutely,

    Right now, even if China and Russia lend to Italy and UK and US, (ie. NOT by buy their bonds), they should jack up the interest rates.

    All the Western nations are presenting as substantial financial risks for investments from China and Russia.

    Afterall, these nations made no qualms during good times about using money borrowed from China and Russia to restrict technology developments in China, Sponsoring groups with historical terrorist links against China and Russia (while denigrating China and Russia for “crack downs” against these groups), etc.

    If one day Western nations’ economies make come back, these loans would still be used for such purposes against China and Russia.

    It’s ONLY fair for China and Russia to gauge the risks of their investments in the West by accurately measuring the risks posed by Western “Democratic” political rhetorics, as much as Western nations have often called China’s political system as “risky” for business.

    If Western nations are sanctioning Chinese and Russian companies, well, it’s RISKY for Chinese and Russian companies to invest in the West.

    It’s completely unpredictable how the Nationalist slogans in the West are going to risk Chinese and Russian investments in the future. (Huawei was a perfectly good recent example of how US politicians used politics to destroy a Chinese company’s competitive plans in US, in favor of domestic companies).

    *I for one, am for investing in the West. Trade promotes long term cooperation.

    However, Chinese companies and government should speak up, and LOUDLY mark and complain about the RISK of Western politics to business.

    Because it is obvious that the West is USING politics to jeopardize the world economy, to the detriment of EVERYONE involved, for the sake of “human rights”.

    So that reality should be reflected in the credit ratings of the Western nations.

  109. September 13th, 2011 at 09:28 | #109

    There’s already a Chinese credit rating agency:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagong
    “The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission has refused to recognize Dagong’s ratings because of the commission’s inability to supervise the Beijing-based agency.”

    http://www.dagongcredit.com/dagongweb/english/index.php

  110. September 13th, 2011 at 22:04 | #110

    There is talks right now involving Dagong and other financial firms forming an international sovereign credit rating agency. It will be interesting to follow that development.

  111. raventhorn2000
    September 14th, 2011 at 05:25 | #111

    Dagong is not being taken seriously enough, and primarily because it is relatively new, and don’t have much of a history behind it.

    Furthermore, it doesn’t have any informal government backing/acceptance, (as in the case for the Western credit rating agencies, whose rating systems are being actively used to reflect loan risks by many government agencies).

    So, I would further suggest that the Chinese government backed banks get involved with Dagong to formalize some Chinese economy backed rating system, ie. “risk to Chinese investment” credit rating system.

    Dagong is trying to be too generic and too internationalized. It needs to start from home 1st, ie. “risk to Chinese investment” instead of generic risk ratings.

    And since now everyone including US wants Chinese investment, “risk to Chinese investment” should become internationalized naturally over time.

  112. September 14th, 2011 at 22:16 | #112

    @raventhorn2000
    I agree Dagong doesn’t have the clout. However, the problem with Moody, Standard & Poor, and Fitch is that they all have vested interest in the financial market and has lost their objectivity. Can you imagine a referee is allowed to play in a game too?

    http://www.stockbrokerfraudblog.com/2008/11/moodys_standard_poors_and_fitc.html

    That’s why despite the US rating downgrade by Moody, China stocks, bonds etc are still rated lower than the US. And if you do not have AAA rating, most retirement or govn’t fund worldwide will not invest in you. However, Chinese banks are letting their market cap and profit speaks for themselves. So only time will tell.

  113. September 14th, 2011 at 22:20 | #113

    That’s why despite their deficit and debt ratio, EU and US still have better rating. Look at the world map.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_and_Poors

  114. September 14th, 2011 at 22:23 | #114

    Correction: US credit rating downgraded by S&P not Moody.

  115. raventhorn2000
    September 15th, 2011 at 05:56 | #115

    @Ray

    I agree that the Western rating agencies have lost their objectivity. Recently, HK government began to investigate the Western rating agencies over their perceived bias in rating of HK economy.

    Similarly, even UK began to investigate their own rating agencies.

    Their clout seem to be in the decline.

    *I think as more and more countries are asking Chinese businesses to invest in the West, the Chinese rating systems may become more important naturally.

  116. raventhorn2000
  117. zack
    September 15th, 2011 at 06:38 | #117

    watching al jazeera english today reporting on the Chinese uighur situation, i couldn’t help but notice that the journalists appeared to be exhibiting a…hope that the uighurs would revolt more; my theory is that news in the west is no longer about informing as much as it is about reassurances, and reinforcing fixed views for their audiences.
    Such infotainment is meant to give aid and comfort to a population that knows it’s on the decline-the very same media that comforts has now been forced to report on the very real and very tangible fact that their world and culture is in decline, and that of the BRICS is on the rise. So every now and then, little spoonfuls of schadenfreude are given even on slow news days to ease the pain of the knowledge that europe and britain are fast becoming more and more irrelevant.

  118. raventhorn2000
    September 15th, 2011 at 06:50 | #118

    hope, cheer, cajol, etc. I would call them “incitement”.

    It’s like some Republican wingnuts hinting for “revolution” and “lock and load for 2012″. (And the TGIE calling periodically for “uprising” day).

    It’s beyond schadenfreude. It’s terrorism, pure and simple.

    Imagine if some Chinese media or politician annually celebrated “LA peaceful uprising memorial day”.

    *Fortunately, Chinese can take it in strides, knowing they are just getting desperate for attention. IGNORED!! (As “human rights trolls” should be).

  119. September 15th, 2011 at 08:01 | #119

    @raventhorn2000
    “I think as more and more countries are asking Chinese businesses to invest in the West, the Chinese rating systems may become more important naturally.”

    Sad but true, ultimately money talks. That will only happen when China’s economy reached parity with EU or US. I am against buying too much foreign govn’t bond as they are bound to depreciate in the future. A larger portion should be invested in MNC stocks which Chinese companies are already making OEM for, or invest in MNC that has large presence in China or great potential for growth.

    I also believe that China’s education system is under funded. Country like Malaysia spent more than 1/5 of govn’t budget on education by contract China’s figure is 1/10. By funding lots of medical or engineering schools (don’t need too many law schools, not taking a swipe at you personally, my elder sis and younger bro are attorneys too lol)

    These professionals are badly needed in development in many parts of Asia, Africa or S.America. Chinese state enterprises should be made to use part of their profits to provide free medical and engineering services to those countries. The numbers base of how big China’s investment is there. In the future medical and engineering schools can be set up there too. It is a win-win situation.

  120. jxie
    September 16th, 2011 at 09:32 | #120

    Ray, “I also believe that China’s education system is under funded. Country like Malaysia spent more than 1/5 of govn’t budget on education by contract China’s figure is 1/10.”

    Not sure about Malaysia’s number, but in 2009, it was 15.2% in China. In 2010, the chance of a school child in China getting college-level (2+ years) education in his/her lifetime is about 50%, which is quite likely a bit higher than his/her Malaysian peer. If factored school hours, now Chinese students are among the best educated in the world.

    What China needs to fund more is adult education. The one-child policy creates a rather strange demographic phenomenon. The 6 – 18 age group at each year is significant smaller than 10 to 30 years ago. While the school children now in China are very well educated, their predecessors on the other hand, weren’t educated that well.

  121. September 16th, 2011 at 11:19 | #121

    @Ray
    Not too long ago I did some back of the envelope calculations – China has about 1 legal professional serving 9000 citizens whereas the U.S. has 1 for 300.

    For China to become a more law based society, I think that ratio has to improve. U.S. might be too contentious a society. I don’t know what Japan’s ratio is, but I figure if China can get to 1 for 1000 citizens, that’d be a 9x increase in number of lawyers etc than today.

  122. zack
    September 16th, 2011 at 21:46 | #122

    @YinYang
    yet we don’t want China to become a litigious society like the US; have u been to LAX? even the PA has to inform us that the lawyers pestering u for work aren’t a part of the airport establishment.

  123. September 17th, 2011 at 07:43 | #123

    @jxie
    Well, because many countries have their local schools funded by local taxes, the poorest region of Chinese schools are very underfunded. These areas are so under developed that even the teachers don’t want to work there. That’s why I believe that the central govn’t should step in to subsidise these areas.

    I know this is probably controversial but I think China’s education budget need to gradually increased to 1/5. In China, the universities got a disproportionate amount of the education budget but it is still low, as for example in the US the Ivy Leagues schools are privately funded and mosts state universities are also locally funded.

    I do agree that things are getting better but there’s still room for improvement.

  124. September 17th, 2011 at 07:46 | #124

    @YinYang
    Thanks for putting the number into perspective, I agree the number of lawyers are too few in China. What I am saying is that China cannot expert legal services but can export engineering and medical expertise.

  125. raventhorn2000
    September 19th, 2011 at 07:12 | #125

    @YinYang

    Japan has about 1 lawyer for every 5500 people. Japan wants to increase the number to 1 for every 3000 by 2018, but this would be difficult considering Japan is graduating fewer and fewer people from Universities.

    As a lawyer, I personally think US is too litigious, NOT because there are too many lawyers, but rather the non-lawyer population in US are too lacking in civic knowledge, ie. they don’t understand the basics of laws and thus rely too much upon lawyers.

    I always say,
    “The danger of a highly transparent legal system is that it is far too easy for stupid people to NOT understand their rights and the legal system, and waste taxpayers’ money for the courts to prove to them, in public and once and for all, that they are indeed stupid!”

  126. September 19th, 2011 at 11:01 | #126

    @raventhorn2000
    Thanks for sharing the Japan numbers.

    On the issue of lacking civic knowledge, I can see this being a big problem in China too, though improving. In my last conversation with my cousin in Shanghai, he told me he’s refused paying taxi fare a number of times, because the driver violated some traffic rules. He said that was law, and the driver by violating the rules, put him in danger.

    I can imagine his parent’s generation mostly unaware of such a thing. I know he’d be much more predisposed to use the courts whereas his parents would rely much more heavily on guanxi.

  127. raventhorn2000
    September 19th, 2011 at 13:41 | #127

    @YinYang

    What your cousin did, I hate to say it, is rather taking law into his own hands, and somewhat dangerous. While I understand the danger of traffic violations, I don’t think Chinese laws allow individual citizens to enforce the traffic law by refusing to pay for taxi fares.

    (Actually, I hate to say it, this is borderline extortion, ie. refusing to pay for service with implicit threat to report a crime. And I’m pretty sure this kind of extortion is considered a crime, in both China and USA. AND IT can easily turn into a criminal conspiracy charge, ie. the minute the extortion attempt is accepted to cover up a known crime).

    Not to get too personal on accusations against your cousin, but I think he may not know the Chinese laws as well as he thinks he does. (And people taking laws into their own hands, based upon their own assumptions about the laws. That’s the same kind of problem as US has.)

    *Just to say that I understand where your cousin comes from, and I have a cousin like him. My cousin ended up in jail for doing some deals with some officials.

    It’s pretty common for people to “assume” their understanding of the law, without spending much time actually researching the laws.

    *There is an “understanding” in the Japanese legal system, I think applicable universally, that “EVERYONE is GUILTY of something, Just Not all of them have been caught yet!!”

    It’s a warning that, you can’t go around assuming that you understand the law.

  128. wwww1234
    September 19th, 2011 at 16:39 | #128

    @raventhorn2000

    that is not how “law” works in china. The 1 in 9000 ratio is not evenly distributed. I would say lawyers are all located in big cities with population over several millions, and lawyers are basically unaffordable by most.
    So most disputes are settled by lengthy negotiation, within the context of practicality.
    eg there is no sense going after a biker who scratched your car , or a peasant who totaled it with his tractor, as he would certainly not be able to pay and invariably carries no insurance. There is no sense not to compensate an injured pedestrian who is 100% at fault, as he is the pension of his village parents and food for his kid, and if he does not get money to treat his injury etc., he is getting a death sentence from you, and likely will resort to unusual means.
    So car insurance is funny by north american standard. I am paying about the same insurance in China as in north america where I had coverage of over 2 million. But in china, my major coverage is mainly for the replacement of the car. Each passenger is worth no more than 4000 USD (my car has 5 seats).
    I put up a sign in the car warning my friends about their bodily worth while getting a ride from me and they should get travel insurance!
    After much contemplation, I come to realize my insurance is actually not only for covering myself, but it covers everyone and everyTHING else. That includes tricycllers , bicyclers, cars, pedestrians and pigs, cows with their unborn.

    Once I asked a villager in mountainous guizhou how disputes are settle, as I see no police stations or government offices. In most cases it is by negotiation. In the rare situations they call in the city police, but the police may not agree to come, and the village often has to pay for the gas/food/accomodation.
    So what is the basis of this negotiation, it is mainly practicality(affordability), plus a sense of JUSTICE that has been passed down mainly in the literature/movies/folklords/family education as stories.
    In the old time when mobility was unknown, the gives and takes in villages were even out by time through generations. People do remember which family has been good in previous generations and give credits to it.
    But what enforces justice nowadays? The villager gave me an illustration.
    When a death occurs, many people are needed to carry the coffin, often up the mountain to a feng shui spot. People would just refuse doing it for you if your family bad and no money can hire anyone from neighboring villages to do it.

    In the US it is easy to navigate, as behaviour pattern is predicatable and any divergence is negatively reinforced by law and money. In China this absent add on lawyer fee is born out by lower cost of everything and when disputes occurs it is paid through patience and in the final analysis, time. And so far, most chinese have time.

  129. September 19th, 2011 at 23:06 | #129

    Chinese society is indeed complex – there is the country side and then the city and the microcosms within each.

  130. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 05:36 | #130

    @wwww1234

    I understand “negotiations”, but individual citizens do not have the legal authority to “negotiate” punishment for traffic violations.

    If a taxi driver is committing traffic violations and endangering lives, that’s a Criminal matter, not something the taxi passenger can “negotiate” on behalf of the public by withholding his own fare payment.

    I also know that this is “how it works in China”.

    But that’s technically not “law”, that’s just people taking the law into their own hands.

    As a lawyer, I am of the opinion that such “negotiations” are no good for the long term stability of the society.

    It’s only a hair away from mobs taking law/justice into their own hands and starting riots.

  131. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 06:19 | #131

    Raven, I agree with you entirely. One thing though. In this scenario doesn’t the driver have a legal duty of care to protect your safety to the best of his ability, which in the case of a taxi ride would mean not going through red lights or the wrong way up one way streets? In the case that they were not protecting you safety wouldn’t you then have the right to withhold payment for breach of contract, assuming such a contract exists in some form?

    Irrespective of the legality, I fear you wouldn’t last long in this country or anywhere if you went around short- changing taxi driver…

    It’s the only time I’ll ever agree with you about anything raven, so let’s make the most of it.

  132. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 06:43 | #132

    @Ron Jeremy

    “In the case that they were not protecting you safety wouldn’t you then have the right to withhold payment for breach of contract, assuming such a contract exists in some form?”

    There is a Civil Liability if the Driver endangered ANY ONE, including passenger and bystanders. In which case, the remedy is that the passenger and bystanders MAY sue the Driver (and his employer) for Civil damages.

    But the key word here is “DAMAGES”. If you are a passenger, the Driver was driving dangerously, but didn’t ACTUALLY get into an accident, and did NOT cause any actual damages to YOU, then you have ZERO damages to go after him for.

    Contract laws also do not cover this, because there is no implied Warranties of “safety conduct standards” in service contracts.

    There are “DAMAGE” or insurance clauses in many service contracts, but these AGAIN, relate to WHEN there is ACTUAL DAMAGES, and do NOT apply when there is MERELY dangerous behavior but no damages.

    *Laws are like this, because it is NOT for the passenger to judge when a driver is being “safe” or “unsafe”, if there is no damages.

    That’s called “back seat drivers”, it is not a valid legal recourse for the passenger to withhold payment for violation of some “passenger safety standard” when there is no damages.

    Also such a standard, EVENIF drafted into a contract, it will likely be UNENFORCEABLE, because the standard for violation would be too arbitrary, AND it be likely against “public policy” because it would create a dangerous driving condition for the driver to have a “back seat driver” constantly criticizing the driver and taking “points” off for every minor traffic infractions.

    *Imagine if you will, you are the taxi driver. While you are driving, your passenger in the back, holding a clipboard, saying to you, “Oh, you just cross the median line. That’s $1 off my payment!” “Oh, you just forgot to signal when you changed lanes. That’s $2 off my payment!”

    Your passenger will likely be causing an accident by distracting you this way.

  133. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 06:46 | #133

    @Ron Jeremy

    “It’s the only time I’ll ever agree with you about anything raven, so let’s make the most of it.”

    I assure you, this is entirely due to your own stubbornness, which doesn’t matter a pence to me, one way or another.

  134. jxie
    September 20th, 2011 at 09:16 | #134

    Ray, “Well, because many countries have their local schools funded by local taxes, the poorest region of Chinese schools are very underfunded. These areas are so under developed that even the teachers don’t want to work there. That’s why I believe that the central govn’t should step in to subsidise these areas.”

    Actually starting in the mid-00s, poor localities’ educational funding has most come from the central government. The Chinese central government is flush with money nowadays (quickly approaching the US federal government in terms of fiscal revenues).

    I fully agree with your premise that educational funding needs to be put at a high priority — education is by far the single most important leading indicator of how well a nation performs. In virtually every country (other than China) with sizeable ethnic Chinese population, Chinese on average have higher income, wealth and educational attainment than the general public. What has held China back, is education, education and education.

    China’s population pyramid is a bell shape, with its own “baby boomer” bulge. While the current school children in China are among the best educated in the world, the “baby boomer” generation (born between early 60s to late 80s) wasn’t so lucky when they were at school age. The labor force as a whole, is still vastly under-educated. My opinion is, other than continue providing the best education to the school children, adult education is quite important too. The adult education funding, may not show up in the official education stats.

  135. raventhorn2000
    September 23rd, 2011 at 06:54 | #135

    In diplomatic “schadenfreude”, we should study Germany’s handling of the Euro financial crisis. (regardless of how it might turn out).

    European countries are begging Germany to bail them out, and Germany is playing hardball (by pretending that they don’t really need the rest of Europe).

    In reality, Germany knows that if they let Euro collapse, German Economy will downturn as well, yet they still play hardball and reluctance diplomatically.

    In comparison, China is like the German Economy of the world. Everyone wants China to help bail out, US, Italy, Greece, Ireland, Spain, etc., and yet China doesn’t play hardball enough, and countries like US take China’s help for granted, and EVEN characterize China’s help as primarily self-motivated and even SINISTER “take-over” moves.

    *Let’s be real, China’s economy is holding up the tumbling world economy by a significant proportion. Especially in Asia, where much anti-China sentiments are spreading politically in Philippines, Vietnam, India, etc.

    So I think China needs to amp up its diplomatic game a bit more, and realize that it needs to play hardball (learn to be like Germany).

    Now is the perfect time, when China has the most financial leverage.

    Yes, China may suffer a little economically, but consider the German argument: Why suffer WHILE bailing out people who you don’t like?

    Germans say, why should we spend German tax money to pay for Greeks on social welfare?

    I say similarly, why should Chinese spend Chinese tax money to pay for countries who bar Chinese companies, and spend money in media calling Chinese “sneaky”?

    Hey, if the world economy will go down, China can’t stop it. And why should China try to save those who won’t save themselves but rather blame China instead?

    China should save its money, stockpile food and resources, to save its own citizens, just in case the collapse does come.

    * like I said before, I give up trying to help Westerners (and others who won’t listen).

    Germany realized that People (and countries) can ONLY be helped, if they first admit that they have a PROBLEM, and they are willing to demonstrate that they are willing to change. Germany is making Greece go through a kind of 12-step program, to demonstrate that Greeks are willing to change their ways of overconsumption (by austerity measures). EVEN then, Germany is reluctant to believe that Greeks are admitting to their own problems.

    So that’s the KEY: China needs to make other nations understand that THEY have the PROBLEM, if they are coming to China for help. China shouldn’t play the nice guy who puts up with the abusive behaviors of his alcoholic/addict friend, bail him out of jail, pay for his drinks, let him crash on the couch, etc. China should realize that its help are simply wasted by such people who won’t admit to their own problems.

    US (and others) are the ADDICTS. They keep pounding on China’s door for “help”, knowing that China is a push over.

    I say, we need to break that pattern of enabling them.

  136. Ron Jeremy
    September 23rd, 2011 at 07:10 | #136

    ‘* like I said before, I give up trying to help Westerners (and others who won’t listen).’

    You really are full of yourself raven. Don’t worry pal, Jesus wasn’t appreciated in his own time either….

  137. raventhorn2000
    September 23rd, 2011 at 07:26 | #137

    @Ron Jeremy

    I never said I was trying to be Jesus.

    Us mere human beings are known to “help” each other. That concept may be beyond the Troll’s system of morality.

  138. Ron Jeremy
    September 23rd, 2011 at 07:37 | #138

    Why not come back to China then and help your people? Hey maybe you can walk on water too…

    Like I said before, I give up trying to help PRC Han, and other morally bankrupt opportunists who won’t listen.

  139. raventhorn2000
    September 23rd, 2011 at 09:25 | #139

    @Ron Jeremy

    “morally bankrupt”? You need a mirror, Porn Star Troll! LOL!

    Sounds like you are the one who needs “help”, but can’t get it outside of China.

  140. raventhorn2000
    September 23rd, 2011 at 10:32 | #140

    “morally bankrupt opportunists”??

    Must be talking about the descendants of Western Opium sellers, weapon dealers, war profiteers, slave traders, Land stealers, etc., because all of my “opportunities” are completely ethical and moral.

  141. scl
    September 24th, 2011 at 11:19 | #141

    @ raventhorn2,

    Forget about Ron Jeremy. By his generalization of all PRC ethnic Han people as “morally bankrupt”, he has “achieved” two things:

    1. He demonstrated that he is a racist – generalization is a hallmark of prejudice and bigotry.

    2. He has poisoned the well of discourse. According to his logic, from now on, anything you say will be false, no matter whether it is really true or false, because it’s said by a “morally bankrupt person”!

    Any one who implies that Westerners have higher moral values than other people is an unmitigated bigot not worth debating with.

  142. John Holmes
    September 25th, 2011 at 02:25 | #142

    ‘* like I said before, I give up trying to help Westerners (and others who won’t listen).’’

    Thats perfectly acceptable.

    ”I give up trying to help PRC Han, and other morally bankrupt opportunists who won’t listen.”

    But that is somehow different. This place is getting more and more like the comments section of China Daily.

    ‘SCL’like raven, I’m just trying to help….though I, unlike him are actually in China

  143. raventhorn2000
    September 25th, 2011 at 11:07 | #143

    ‘like raven, I’m just trying to help….though I, unlike him are actually in China”

    No, you need help, Troll.

You must be logged in to post a comment.