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Some rabid Falun Gong followers show their ugly side in Flushing, NY

May 22nd, 2008

China’s crackdown on Falun Gong (FLG) is frequently cited in the west as evidence of human rights abuse and suppression of religion. On the other hand, some of the FLG followers make it really difficult to sympathize with their cause.

Case in point, there are reports of FLG followers publicly cheering the Sichuan earthquake as a karmic response from heaven on the Chinese Communist Party. ESWN provided a translation of a report from Ming Pao dated May 21, 2008:

The confrontation between Queens county residents and the FLG practitioners is now on its fourth day …

Yesterday at 10am, several dozen FLG member appeared in front of the Flushing Public Library.  Just like the past three days before, they unfurled banners that pronounced “The Heavens destroy the Chinese Communists,” “Experts sent Sichuan earthquake prediction report confidentially to authorities” and so on to show the passer-bys.  Some of the FLG members said that they have been criticising the Chinese Communist regime and they thought that the Sichuan earthquake revealed the evil nature of the Chinese Communists.  Some FLG members even said that the Sichuan earthquake was the result of the violent rule of the Chinese Communists.

The New Voice also had an entry. Please note that some FLG supporters disputed the nature of the confrontation in the comment section. I find it difficult, however, to interpret the “天滅中共” (Heaven is destroying the CCP) signs so prominently displayed by the FLG protesters as anything other than their perspective on the Sichuan earthquake. This understanding is further supported by another commenter and eye witness named Thomas J. Hillgardner:

… I live in Jamaica, New York, about two miles from the Flushing library where the protest took place and this report originated. I can absolutely confirm that the Falun Gong practitioners were gleeful about the earthquake. It was a pretty stupid thing for the FG to do. There were lots of angry people in the streets; angry at the Falun Gong for kicking China when its down. Who can blame them. It was a boneheaded thing to do.

I won’t bother to argue it is wrong and despicable to invoke God or heaven in explaining the happening of the Sichuan earthquake as many have already touched on this topic. (e.g. see “What have they done to deserve this?” at Sun Bin) As Mr. Hillgardner put it, “it was a pretty stupid thing for the FLG to do.”

Perhaps there could be a silver lining to this event. Surely there would be a large number of reports in the newspapers of this multi-day and ongoing confrontation involving large number of people and police in New York, which is one of the best covered regions in the world, news media wise. And maybe, just maybe, some of the habitual criticizers of China would read about such behaviors of the rabid FLG followers, look into their beliefs and acts, and take a more nuanced view of CCP vs. FLG in the future. Right?

However, this is not going to happen since they won’t be able to read about it anywhere, except, on the Epoch Times, which happens to be the propaganda arm of the FLG and where this confrontation is described as another case of CCP paid agents harrasing peaceful FLG protesters. Seriously, try typing in “Falun Gong Flushing” or some other variations in the Google News Search and see what you get.

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  1. Bing Ma Yong
    May 22nd, 2008 at 04:35 | #1

    FLG do get lots of kind hearted people beleive FLG practicer in China get executed just because of the belief and their organ get harvested. many reads and believes the stories on
    Epoch Times.

    FLG is well financed and organized but certainly not by Li HongZhi.

  2. Buxi
    May 22nd, 2008 at 04:45 | #2

    Don’t forget the Youtube video also linked from ESWN:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y78iaMm2I7s

    Most of those interviewed are saying things along the lines of … “FLG is inhumane, they actually banged on gongs and celebrated the earthquake on Saturday”.

    I do not have much opinion about FLG as a “religion”, because I’m not educated on the spiritual aspects. But I will say my personal experience with its political activities in the years after the Communist crackdown has just been… disgusting, disturbing.

    I personally know some FLG practictioners, a few of whom are active in the movement itself. I know they’re not evil people, and they might fervently believe that what they’re doing is appropriate as a way of fighting back against the Communist government… but their methods have failed. They’ve done more to turn the Chinese community against them than anything Beijing could do.

  3. Mr. Ma
    May 22nd, 2008 at 04:52 | #3

    FLG practitioners’ unpalatable speech does not in any way improve the CCP’s case for outlawing FLG in China. Is that what you are trying to suggest by a “silver lining?” When you say, people should “look into their beliefs,” do you mean that if the “west” just knew more it would concur that they are in fact an “evil cult” as labeled by the CCP? I have found FLG practitioners to be a bit out there, but they have shown nothing that in any way merits the persecution that has been their lot in the last ten years. What more nuance do you want than that? By the way, thanks for your attempt to break their monopoly on media coverage of the incident.

  4. Bing Ma Yong
    May 22nd, 2008 at 05:07 | #4

    for me ,the video just shows the anti-CCP and pro-CCP protesters

  5. overseaschinese
    May 22nd, 2008 at 05:22 | #5

    “some of the FLG followers make it really difficult to sympathize with their cause.”

    As if you sympathized with their cause before this incident… fangpi!

  6. DJ
    May 22nd, 2008 at 05:44 | #6

    Mr. Ma,

    Please note that I purposely didn’t take a position on Chinese government’s treatment of FLG in this entry.

    Similar to Buxi, I have nothing against FLG as a religion per se. But I am put off by actions of some of their more fervent believers outside of China. Some of the things are merely “amusing”, such as their claim that more than 35 million, and counting, CCP members have quit as the result of their campaign. Some of the things are not exactly laughing matters. Have you heard of their insistent but discredited charge that the CCP systematically arrested, tortured and harvested organs from FLG practitioners in China.

    So by “silver lining” I do not mean it should or would improve CCP’s case for outlawing FLG. Rather I would like to see those “concerned” politicians, opinion makers and activists no longer treat FLG vs. CCP as a simple case of good vs. evil. I am not asking much for a “nuanced” view in this case, am I? But sadly I find such appeal actually necessary.

  7. Mr. Ma
    May 22nd, 2008 at 06:28 | #7

    Dear DJ,

    I don’t give credence to the most outlandish of the FLG newspaper reports. And I don’t think much of the foreign media does either. I’ve heard about the 35 million people leaving the party, organ harvesting, etc. When the FLG press reports on those things they completely discredit themselves. The fact that they don’t recognize how foolish some of these things sound leads me in part to believe that they are a bit “out there.” The question is not whether they are pure “good” (as opposed to pure evil), but whether or not goofy but innocuous spiritual groups have a right to believe what they wish. In this sense, the CCP policy is loathsome. Wouldn’t you agree? This point, I believe, doesn’t require much nuance.

  8. Bing Ma Yong
    May 22nd, 2008 at 06:30 | #8

    Personal attacking is just distasteful on a blog to share views

  9. DJ
    May 22nd, 2008 at 06:51 | #9

    overseaschinese,

    You may be surprised that I do sympathize with many of the people who were caught between FLG vs. CCP.

    My father-in-law told me once about a guy in his DanWei (work unit) who wasn’t in good health and joined FLG group to practice its variant of QiGong (a form of therapeutic movement, breathing, and meditation). He was heavily pressured by the bureaucrats in the DanWei to renounce FLG after the government decided to crackdown on it in 1999. He did not deserve the trouble and I sympathize with him.

    I assume that there were many people in FLG for the same health consideration in the 90’s. I also assume that there were many members simply looking for spiritual guidance and found so in FLG. Frankly I see some of the teachings and believes in FLG as far fetched. But who am I to tell others what to or not to believe? Either way, they were innocents and I don’t doubt that many of them were similarly harassed. Some perhaps experienced worse. (But I simply refuse to believe the BS about them being tortured and organ harvested.) I sympathize with them.

    That said, I am nevertheless disturbed by the actions and words of some more rabid FLG followers in the US I have seen or heard. With regard to this Flushing incident, I will repeat my rather understated comment: some of the FLG followers make it really difficult to sympathize with their cause.

  10. DJ
    May 22nd, 2008 at 06:59 | #10

    Mr. Ma,

    In principle, I don’t disagree with you. However, I think the problem, as of today instead of 1999, is that FLG is perhaps no longer a “goofy but innocuous spiritual group” any more.

    RE: “I don’t give credence to the most outlandish of the FLG newspaper reports. And I don’t think much of the foreign media does either.” But what if some of the foreign media and some of their readers do? And I suspect that it is not necessarily a small percentage.

  11. Falen
    May 22nd, 2008 at 07:29 | #11

    FLG is just an avenue for people to claim political asylum status towards getting their Green Card.

  12. Hyan
    May 22nd, 2008 at 10:12 | #12

    I used to have sympathy for those FLG followers, but after the incident where they verbally attacked and maliciously slandered ordinary Chinese students in a very vicious way at LSE(London School Economics) in London, I just think they are way too crazy.

  13. Bing Ma Yong
    May 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 | #13

    亲爱的overseaschinese,
    从您的其他留言得知您在中国教过书,应该称您为老师了。
    在这里,中外人士在友好热烈的气氛中交换意见。fangpi一词显得有些突兀,有损师雅,有辱师尊。请老师明鉴。

  14. asdf
    May 22nd, 2008 at 16:38 | #14

    Of course, everyone here realizes that FLG is finance by the CIA and other secret parts of the US government so that the US can repeated site it as an issue against China, right?

  15. May 22nd, 2008 at 16:48 | #15

    This blog is certainly showing its panda licking colors by saying that only the FLG believes that the earthquakes are a sign that the CCP has lost the mandate from heaven.

  16. Buxi
    May 22nd, 2008 at 18:13 | #16

    I do sympathize with individual Falun Gong practitioners forced to give up their religion. I think the Chinese people should have the right to their faith, within legal reason. (Many Chinese are concerned with the faith-healing aspects of FLG, for example.)

    There are a thousand other quirky, similar religions throughout China. I don’t like many of them on a personal basis, but I don’t think the government should deny them to the people.

    But China has a great fear of organized religions, and I personally can understand why. The Taiping Rebellion wasn’t all that long ago. FLG clearly became something more than just a religious faith when it took its activism to the streets in China.

    When FLG faithful show up in great numbers when ordered to harass scientists and journalists who criticize the religion (this is all before the crackdown), something is wrong. When FLG faithful show up in great numbers on the same day in order to harass government offices, something is very wrong.

    In a more perfect world, in a China that has an established legal order, we could depend on the legal system to manage this. Those who break the law by assembling illegally would be charged openly and tried fairly. Those who break the law by preventing others from seeking medical help would also be charged openly and tried fairly. But that legal system doesn’t exist in China now. I think much of the ill in Chinese society can be traced back to that.

  17. May 22nd, 2008 at 22:13 | #17

    Religious nuts exist in the west and they are a nuisance. As long as laws regarding their freedom of speech and their targets’ freedom of safety and speech are equally respected and enforced there is no problem.

    If Beijing wants China to be respected as a Great Power than the government and the individual people are going to have to learn to accept things they hear and don’t agree with both domestically and internationally.

    Basically, the government has to stop throwing temper tantrums at home and the Chinese people have to stop throwing temper tantrums abroad.

  18. shannxibiangbiangmian
    May 23rd, 2008 at 00:10 | #18

    @nanheyangrouchuan,

    I am glad to see your less angry words of “If Beijing wants China to be respected as a Great Power than the government and the individual people are going to have to learn to accept things they hear and don’t agree with both domestically and internationally” than something you posted on shanghailist like ” Burn down the Forbidden shit”

    I agree with this and this has caused a lot of trouble. FLG is just one of the example. FLG people could not accept the scientist’s criticizing while the same scientist who also criticized other similar practices and FLG people massed gathered in the university and surrounded the government buildings used to be part of the buildings you shouted to burn down. And the CCP could not take FLG’s showing off like this and caused the crackdown.

    CCP and many Chinese people never live in a democracy environment and have more to learn. CCP leaders educated in the 50s,60s under Soviet style system and few of them could read English and never been taught about the good western values, it’s hard for them to change over night. Taiwan’s democracy only happened after the death of Chiang Kai-shek and his son. These two were same with CCP leaders in terms of both under dictatorship or war environment and have no much ideal of democracy. Democracy has a long way to go in China and would get there by all the peaceful means but not by the violence like ” Burn down the Forbidden shit” you suggested and your ancestors did it.

    putting the photo of PLA soldiers disguised as Tibetan monks on the front page might be creative but not very constructive criticizing to CCP or some Chinese people you hate.

  19. May 23rd, 2008 at 02:22 | #19

    Dont be riducluas Falun Gong would never cheer the deaths of any person. This is an outright lie ognasied by teh Ccp to attack FAlun Gong’s good reputation. No one in teh west wiht a free mind would beleive that. Instead read this..

    CCP interferes and urges Chinese nationalist to attack Falun Gong peaceful appeals outside of China

    Peaceful Rally Attacked in New York City’s Chinatown
    Chinese regime believed to order attack
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-19/70825.html

    “The attack on the rally seems to have been coordinated with Chinese-language media that are controlled or influenced by the CCP. These media outlets, such as CCTV, ordinarily do not cover rallies held to urge people to quit the CCP.
    On Saturday, these media outlets were present in force. Immediately after the event ended, they published and broadcast stories whose themes were that the participants in this rally “do not care about the victims of the Sichuan earthquake” and “do not love China.”
    Witnesses at the scene saw individuals providing drinks and Chinese flags to the crowd that gathered to oppose the rally for quitting the CCP. Other individuals worked to arrange the scene to provide CCTV with good opportunities for filming.”

    Organized Crowds in Chinatown Repeatedly Harass ‘Quit CCP’ Center
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-20/70827.html

    Chinese Regime Tries to Quash Dissent in New York’s Chinatown, Say Activists http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-21/70866.html

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-21/70877.html
    Overseas Chinese Students Harass Quit CCP Center in Japan

    This was printed in the CCTV news in China a few days ago.
    http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/200805/news-gb2312-605101.html

    Please view part translation of an article from CCP media spreading inside China. This has been forwarded to New York Police and other authorities for further investigation and possible evidence to stop these interferences in peaceful FG appeals outside of China.
    This attack in Flushing, with the interpretation given it by regime-influenced Chinese-language media, appears to be an attempt to play on the strong feelings evoked by the disastrous earthquake in Sichuan in order to stigmatize opposition to the Chinese regime.

    CCTV Article
    “Global Times report: When many overseas Chinese were in sorrow of the Wenchuan earthquake and collecting donations, FLG people held a series of gathering in New York, trying to stop local Chinese communities and groups to collect donations for the earthquake. Many local Chinese were very angry.

    According to a US Chinese website report, on 17th, FLG gathered in front of Flushing library in New York, in the event of earthquake in China, many Chinese people died or injured, FLG people betting drums, and saying that the disaster is related to politics of China.. Passers bys who was donating money can not forbear this and more and more people gathered there and protect to them. Two days later, FLG gathered in the same place again. People gathered and protect once more. The Chinese people at the site said that in the disaster of the nation, FLG want to link the disaster with politics, we Chinese people can not accept it. Chinese people shout out loud ” Go China” etc. Many people can not hold their anger and speak out to denounce FLG, they said even they’re all Chinese, but FLG didn’t donate money, on the contrary, the said these words, this is totally contradict to their ZSR. This is unacceptable to all Chinese people.”

    Falun Gong were not stopping people from donating to the earthquake victims. In fact we were holding our Tuidang site and encouraging people to quit the Ccp. About 400 Chinese nationalists surrounded the group at Flushing in NY and began to swear and hit out at the FG. The Chinese nationalists have become emboldened from the protesting at Olympic Torch relays and the Ccp playing other anger at the loss of their families life from the earthquake. Please see Falun Dafa Info Centre from NY

    Aftershocks: Chinese Mobs Incited to Attack Falun Gong in New York, Elsewhere
    http://www.faluninfo.net/downloads/FDI_Press/FDI-080521-FL.htm

  20. Bing Ma yong
    May 23rd, 2008 at 03:42 | #20

    @Jana,

    glad to see you are here.

    Are you able to approve your claims on Richard Spencer’s blog are true? So I can learn more about the evil CCP.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/richardspencer/march2008/tibetbiascutsbothways.htm#comments

    Sorry I cross quote your words without your permission. I can request site admin to remove them if you don’t like I grab your words here

    —————Jana’s post starts—————

    Is there a regime more ghastly than that of the People’s Republic of China?

    Jana 30 Mar 2008 06:43

    Is there any other government that so systematically suppresses all religious liberty, erecting religious bureaucracies to which believers are required to belong in order to worship?

    Is there any other regime that still imprisons and kills bishops, priests and monks who fail to swear loyalty to the state?

    Is there any other country where the entire population is subject to child-bearing control, with forced sterilization and abortions for those who decline to submit to state rules on family size?

    Is there any other regime that executes thousands of its citizens annually, the majority for the crime of challenging the ruling party?

    Is there any other country accused (by credible sources) of executing the Falun Gong and harvesting their organs and selling them? Is there any other regime more dependable in its support of the worst kind of evil around the world (Darfur)?

    Even the vile regimes in Saudi Arabia, Cuba, North Korea and Zimbabwe do not compare to China across the breadth of its human rights violations.

    The question is whether China’s size and growing prosperity mean that all this has to be ignored. The answer the world has given has generally been yes. There is business to be done, and political leaders are there to facilitate that, human rights be damned.

    So dont tell me the western media is biased and hates China because they have all being ignoring these violations up to date.

    The Ccp will fall, its terminally ill and in its death throws.

    ————Jana’s post ends—————–

  21. May 23rd, 2008 at 06:00 | #21

    do you guys want to write something regarding ‘spiritual movement’?

    i mean, FLG regard themselves as a religion (or qigong group, i don’t know). dl lama and his followers definitely see themselves as buddhists.

    yet the Mainstream media stubbornly insist to classify them as ‘spiritual movement’. i was puzzled every time i see this word. a friend suggested the MSM (or people from these ‘movements’) may want to make this more acceptable the christian majority in the western world? maybe you guys can do some research on this. 🙂

    what is the real difference between a religion, a sect, and a ‘movement’?

  22. Buxi
    May 23rd, 2008 at 06:06 | #22

    sun bin,

    I don’t hav time for that, I’m still trying to find out the Western media’s definition of a “peaceful protest”…

  23. May 23rd, 2008 at 06:12 | #23

    @ shannxibiangbiangmian

    I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now. But the picture of the PLA soldiers in Tibetan monk robes stays. Just because CCTV says it is a something else means nothing and in fact reinforces the theory. Especially when CCTV was there to film “monks” knocking down the doors of Han businesses. How convenient.

    The picture of Mao certainly needs to burn, and his tomb as well.

  24. May 23rd, 2008 at 06:26 | #24

    BIng Ma, Please see these sites as they will show you what the real nature of the communist regime is.

    Links to Why is Falun Gong persecuted in China?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynqyI5s3WoM&feature=related

    An Independent Investigation into Allegations of Harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners in China
    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/

    Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong in China (CIPFG

    http://www.cipfg.org/en/

    Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group
    http://www.flghrwg.net/

    The Falun Dafa Information Centre
    http://faluninfo.net/
    Falun Gong “Disappearing by Thousands”
    by Georgianne Neiaber
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/georgianne-nienaber/beijing-olympics-is-us-su_b_95934.html

    Here is a site on what is Falun Gong AKA Falun Dafa

    http://www.falundafa.org/eng/home.html

    Here is an independent verification and study from Professor Ownby
    http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~tnchina/commentary/ownby1000.html

    Misconceived thoughts about Falun Gong
    http://www.david-kilgour.com/2008/Mar_21_2008_03.htm

    Staged False Immolation in Tiananmen Square exposed –
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/self-immolation.html

    Gao Zhisheng’s third open letter to Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/5-12-16/35876.html
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070921/NATION/109210069
    http://en.epochtimes.com/211,107,,1.html

    Falun Gong Humanity’s Last Stand
    http://www.falunhr.org/newsletter/TheLastStand.pdf

    YOu might like to also read The Epoch Times book “The Nine Commentaries” which is an expose of the last 60 years of communist rule in China with 80 million un-natural deaths of Chinese people by the communist regime.

    This book has been responsible for 37 million resignations from the ccp and its affiliated organisations since 2004.

    http://ninecommentaries.com/

  25. DJ
    May 23rd, 2008 at 06:34 | #25

    sun bin,

    You certainly made an interesting suggestion. Coincidentally, I was just reading up the discussion of the term “cult” on Wikipedia an hour ago because of the same thought. I probably won’t be able to write anything on this though, given how big this project seems to be.

  26. shannxibiangbiangmian
    May 23rd, 2008 at 07:07 | #26

    @fenqing nanheyangrouchuan

    It’s wonderful to learn from you about “Just because CCTV says it is a something else means nothing and in fact reinforces the theory. Especially when CCTV was there to film “monks” knocking down the doors of Han businesses. How convenient.”

    You would be many ‘s hero and would write the history if you just go to Tiananmen and burn Mao’s picture and tomb. just make some petrol bomb and put them into your backpack would do the historical mission.

    I’ll be always here and waiting for your moment.

  27. May 23rd, 2008 at 17:14 | #27

    @ fenqing shannxibiangbiangmian

    Anything I can do to broaden your mind! And that one was free btw.

  28. Buxi
    May 23rd, 2008 at 18:04 | #28

    Enough already. No more personal sniping back and forth. We’re here to discuss China, not nanheyangrouchuan. Any more gets deleted.

  29. Haha
    May 23rd, 2008 at 22:29 | #29

    Jana,

    You links are meaningless and full of lies, who the @#$% believe Epoch ? a complete joke !

    Think of that, a religion that can make people forget his/her nationality, Is that a religion anymore ? it is just a brainwashing machine.

    Human Right ? give me a break, your so called religion wont allow any doubt, let alone criticism.

    You can keep bashing chinese government which is supported by 99% of the chinese, dont foolishly argue about that. The earthquake proved how much people believe in these government : people in misery just sat there and waited for the help of PLA and government.

    Keep spouting those BS, no Chinese give a F#$%.

  30. Haha
    May 23rd, 2008 at 22:48 | #30

    BTW, I live in New York, The story is 100% true. did you see the balloons in the tape ? WTF did those goner need balloons for ?

    The other day, one Falun goner even asked the organizer of donation group why he collected money for CCP.

  31. May 23rd, 2008 at 23:40 | #31

    Buxi makes me feel not so special…

  32. May 24th, 2008 at 06:40 | #32

    Re Ha Ha,
    you said “The other day, one Falun goner even asked the organizer of donation group why he collected money for CCP.”
    Here is why the Falun Gong practitoenr asked you this question.

    Question :Ask you self why the rich and famous people in China have not given as generously as the poor people in China?

    Answer: The rich people know where the money is going—into the pockets of the corrupted Ccp.

    Distrust Over Donated Relief Funds
    Voice of America
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-22/70909.html

    Chinese writer and critic Zhao Dagong said he believes there is a reason behind the negligible donations from billionaires, and the Chinese state-controlled media would not dare to expose it.

    “I don’t think China’s billionaires aren’t willing to donate. The question is to whom should the donations be made? Will this money get to the disaster victims? Can China set up civilian charitable organizations? The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) monopolizes charitable organizations. Since all these donations have been made to it [the CCP], how will it be spent when the CCP is rife with corrupted officials?”

    Mr. Zhao said that he and his colleagues had made donations for disaster relief; but he wasn’t sure how much of the monies would actually get to the victims. He said that even if one tenth of their donations reach the people in need he would consider that good.

    Hong Kong Chi Heng Foundation Secretary Du Cong said that many Chinese felt compelled to make a donation after seeing news reports about the crisis, but whether they will continue to make donations depends on how the money is used.

  33. Haha
    May 24th, 2008 at 21:06 | #33

    Jana,

    Dont give me the Epoch crap.

    I visited Epoch website once and only once in March, it makes me vomit.

    In a group of picture in Tibet in March, two pictures were obviously taken at the same place, but Epoch claimed one was in Lhasa, the other in Gansu.

    A letter published on Epoch, by a “dissident” to US congress, claimed that Chinese want human right, not Olympic, WTF ?

    BTW, Falun goners have been celebrating in Flushing, NY everyday since last week. Humanity ? BS !!!

  34. LLL
    May 25th, 2008 at 01:57 | #34

    Jana if you think that praising the deaths of fifty thousand and blaming china which is thousands of miles away for the protests against you’re cult then there is a really big problem here. Epoch times and NTDTV is from falun gong members so i wouldn’t even trust them.

    I don’t know what you and your cult was trying to prove in Flushing by saying about how china didn’t care about their people, you probably haven’t seen the PLA struggling to find survivors in sichuan. But the hundreds of chinese young and old didn’t act kind to your lies in the week.

  35. Chris Tuey
    May 25th, 2008 at 13:15 | #35

    I have just returned to the US from China. I was in Chengdu during the earthquke and assisted with rescue and recovery efforts in Beichuan and a refugee camp in Xiaoba and a what used to be a small villige nearby. Before the FLG continues to crow about the Chinese government they should be thinking about the innocent victims, the dead children and the millions without homes. I will remember the trucks full of body bags coming out of the Beichuan school for the rest of my life. Hopefully I will remember FLG not at all.

  36. DJ
    May 25th, 2008 at 16:15 | #36

    Chris Tuey,

    Thank you for the assistance in Sichuan. Please accept a bow from me.

    I think I speak for many on this blog that we very much would like to have had a chance to lend a hand literally, and are truly appreciative to the people who were there to help.

    Please also share your story with us more.

  37. May 26th, 2008 at 01:50 | #37

    CHINA EARTHQUAKE TRIBUTE

    A photographic record of nature’s fury, and my deepest heartfelt wish for the Chinese people.

    http://atruechineserenaissance.blogspot.com/

  38. Anonymous
    May 26th, 2008 at 04:29 | #38

    I am looking on Internet to see how Christian reacts to the disaster, and especially how they think why God lets people suffer. I know many Christians are helping, but the theory about why God let people suffer seems to claim something beyond my understanding. Falun Gong practioners claim it is a Karma on innocent people due to the guilty of party they hate, which is absolutely stupid. As far as I know, Falun Gong organization is not donating or rescuing.

  39. specul8r
    May 26th, 2008 at 08:01 | #39

    Chris Tuey,

    “I will remember the trucks full of body bags coming out of the Beichuan school for the rest of my life. Hopefully I will remember FLG not at all.”

    Yes, FLG will become falun gone and gone away.

  40. specul8r
    May 26th, 2008 at 08:20 | #40

    Anonymous,

    falun gone people not only do not donate one cent but they are trying to brainwash kind people with “compassion” not to help those Sichuan earthquake disaster victims because of their bizzare belief – “the karma retribution of CCP”. However, their brainwash system is not effective and instead backfire badly like they have just created the “bad karma” for the falun gone.

    I feel sorry for those people who got brainwashed by the ‘devil in fake buddha suit LHZ and the gang’ to do all the FLG propaganda work to bring suffering to themselves unless they are awaken to their consciousness and repent all those wrong intentions.

  41. specul8r
    May 26th, 2008 at 08:37 | #41

    Jana,

    Why LHZ didn’t come out and prevent the disaster from happening like he did with Earth collision? Are you telling me, he told god to attack Sichuan? I believe he said before that he is always talking to other gods not to interfere but this time I guess they cooperate together?

  42. Bing Ma Yong
    May 26th, 2008 at 12:33 | #42

    @Jana,

    you see people don’t beleive The Epoch Times here. I don’t know what reasons behind them.

    I believe the what The Epoch Times says about culture revolution and 1989. my parents had first hand experience with culture revolution and I participated 1989.

    But many stories about these days are just untrue(some are true). I don’t know why FLG use the culture revolution style words on every story on The Epoch Times to abuse CCP. The Epoch Times bashes CCP for everything CCP dose and for everything bad happens in China. When there is slave labor, that’s CCP’s fault. When CCP made labor law to protect workers rights and some forien invested factories closed down because of higher labor cost. FLG laughed and blamed CCP again.

    I just don’t buy this kind of probganda and lies.spreading hatred dose not serve things well.

    I’ve been reading The Epoch Times every week for years but just as entertainment and I’ll be still reading your paper as entertainment.

    I would suggest you don’t waste your time and try to convince people here at this stage. You might be marketing in the wrong market.

  43. Nimrod
    May 27th, 2008 at 00:13 | #43

    A key issue about the persecution of Falun Gong is whether it is religious persecution, as outsiders have labeled it. It is not. Clearly, the organization is being shut down for its political activities, specifically its anti-government and anti-Party activities. That isn’t any better, but the distinction is worth bearing in mind. In fact, this is the case with many so-called religious rights issues in China. The government can care less about some harmless cult (which Falun Gong is, but there are others), but it does not tolerate well groups that use religion to advance some political agenda, be it overthrowing the government, or separatism.

  44. Haha
    May 27th, 2008 at 21:27 | #44

    Jana,

    There was a parade by about 2000 Falun goners in Manhattan Chinatown on Sunday. Please tell us how on earth that was “heartfelt wish”.

    http://sinovision.net/news.php?act=details&col_id=6&news_id=46435

    and about your link,

    That was a extremely stupid letter, What ? those protests against Falun goners were organized by Chinese government ? they didnt even have a loud speaker !!

  45. May 28th, 2008 at 01:01 | #45

    Dear Ha Ha,

    New York Times printed this story about the crfimes of hatse against Falun Gong in New York by Chinese rent a crowd mobsters.

    2 -3 chinese nationlists have been arrested already for crimes of hate and violence agasint Falun Gong. NO FAlun Gong practioners have been arrested and nor will we ever.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/nyregion/26falun.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion
    &pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

    The parade was all about the beauty of Falun Gong. What is wrong about that- NOTHING in any eyes excpet the brainwashed Chinese and Ccp.PLease stop your lies now for a a good future Ha Ha.

  46. Haha
    May 28th, 2008 at 02:05 | #46

    Dear Jana,

    I am asking you a simple question : how on earth is that “heartfelt wish” ?

    Now suppose one week after Katrina, Westboro Baptist Church had organized a parade like this, what would Americans people think ?

    Here is the tape of the parade, see for yourself.

    http://sinovision.net/news.php?act=details&col_id=3&news_id=46364

    How on earth did NYTime not inteview those pro-china protestors ?

    When Falun goners claimed they cared about victims in the earthquake, an obvious question would be “what Falun organization has done for the victim?” Why didnt reporters ask that question ?

    Oh, I seeeeeeeeeee, he knew he couldnt, as Falun has done nothing for the victims in earthquake, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!!!

    It couldnt be more obvious that the reporter tried to mislead the American people.

    You know China had double digit growth in last 10 years, right ? It is very simple to prove NYTimes is unbiased about China :

    Just show me an article by New York that said something positively about China. Can you ?

  47. john
    May 28th, 2008 at 02:38 | #47

    How about putting up a pic of their sign and have a real language expert translate it.
    I dont know much about FG, but it is distrubing that the Chinese Communists can get a group to come out and attack dissidents.

  48. May 28th, 2008 at 03:09 | #48

    Ha Ha, I dont speak or read Chinese i am english. The link i sent to you re:Chinese earthquake tribute was produced by a Falun Gong practitioner. Did you watch it?

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ip656ddj3gI

    The propoganda show of the earthquake efforts to make the ccp look good is shocking enough. Those foreign journalists have sold their souls.

    The annual parade was to show the Chinese people who have been victums of the brainswashing mind numbing propoganda against Falun Gong that elsewhere in the world in fact in another 80 countries all around the world that Falun Gong is good and no where else in the world is it persecuted.Only in China. Why is that Ha Ha?

    The Ccp is not good if it can persecute and commit Genocide on a large amount of good people in China while slandering and spreading their lies about Falun Gong thru out the world.

    To take away the fundemental rights of belief from 1.3 billion people is a crime against humanity. One day you will realise what we are doing and why.

    We have the greatest wish for all Chinese to be free of the Ccp lies, persecution, corruption,and Genocides.

    The Chinese media are known for having no freeom of press but are told what they can write about from the Ccp’s propoganda . And everyone knows that even most of the Chinese people.

    Falun Gong Marchers Are Jeered in Chinatown by Chinese mobsters NY Times
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/nyregion/26falun.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

    An open letter to the U.S. Secretary of State from the China Support Network; calls for diplomatic demarche to Communist China by John Kusumi
    http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=7492

    It’s about the news media by John Kusumi
    http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=7464

    NYPD Arrest Three More People for Assaulting Falun Gong Practitioners
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-27/71050.html

    Chinese Consul General Admits to Orchestrating Mob in New York
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-24/70954.html

    Freeing China from Disaster
    Why the Chinese regime needed to stage a riot in Flushing NY
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-20/70842.html

    Chinese media toe the survival storyline
    http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/chinese-media-toe-the-survival-storyline/2008/05/23/1211183103769.html

    Distrust Over Donated Relief Funds VOA
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-22/70909.html

    China Red Cross Officials Suspected of Embezzling Donations for Quake Victims
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-26/71039.html

    The Earthquake tribute for Chinese people
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ip656ddj3gI

  49. May 28th, 2008 at 03:34 | #49

    Ha Ha, you ask what Falun Gong have done for Chinese people? They risk their lives everyday for the last 9 years to keep on practising and will not give in to the Ccp for they have no right to ban or commit Genocide of Falun Gong and no right to deceive the Chinese people from their basic human rights . This is what we do for you because it is right!

    I ask you what the ccp did for the earthquake victims apart from orchestrate a world wide media campaign to show hoe good they were? They also orchestrated a propoganda campaign against FG to say we do not care and incited their Chinese nationalists overseas to commit hate crimes against Falun Gong.

    Heres what you don’t know

    The Many Unexplainable “Whys”

    While a natural disaster, the earthquake brought calamity because of human errors. These human errors are not technical in nature. They are related to the issue of the CCP’s power. The CCP put concerns for its own power before the requirements for disaster rescue.

    Why didn’t the CCP investigate when signs of an earthquake were first reported, but instead jumped at discrediting the information as rumors? The Sichuan government even investigated the “rumor” and publicly “dismissed the rumor” on its official website.

    Why did China claim over ten years ago to have an all-weather airdrop force of over 10,000, yet no air drops were performed in the three days after the earthquake?

    Why, in the critical 72 hours after the earthquake, did only 20 military jet-planes and less than 1,000 soldiers enter the epicenter in Wenchuan County?

    Why did the CCP wait until the fourth day after the earthquake to bring in the world’s largest all-weather jet planes that can carry engineering equipment?

    Why at the crucial juncture of the emergency rescue of heaven-bestowed human lives did the CCP refuse the entry of foreign rescue teams?

    Why have so many innocent children died or been injured in the collapse of their school buildings, while regime buildings are standing safely?

    Why does the Olympics have a budget of over 400 billion Yuan (US$57.4 billion), surpassing the grand total of all previous Olympic games, while the CCP is so careful with money in saving people in disasters?

    Why has the CCP issued orders to maintain positive propaganda, instead of reflecting the true suffering of the people in the disaster-hit area?

    And don’t say this hasn’t been done before? CCP Staging riots on Falun Gong to deflect the scorn off themselves to others. This is a great opportunity for the world’s people to see first hand how devious the ccp is and how sadly the Chinese living abroad are brainwashed. Of course the ccp would have had to pay them some money to do it but they capitalising on the anger and pain from those they lost in the earthquake.

  50. Haha
    May 28th, 2008 at 03:44 | #50

    Haha, Jana,

    I see how pathetic Falun goners are : they basically dont read anything other than the website and newspaper sponsered by Falun.

    To answer one of your question :

    Why did China claim over ten years ago to have an all-weather airdrop force of over 10,000, yet no air drops were performed in the three days after the earthquake ?

    Two days heavy rain after earthquake, and heavy clouds.

    Landslide destoried or blocked all the roads to heavily damaged area.

    Keep spouting the BS IN USA, no Chinese give a F@#$ !!!

  51. Haha
    May 28th, 2008 at 03:48 | #51

    John,

    Falun goners has celebrated the earthquake in China for 10 consecutive days.

    Every heard of Westboro Baptist Church ? google it.

    I am happy that Chinese government kicked Falun out of China. It would be a disaster for China and billions of Chinese if Falun had become a political power in China.

  52. Haha
    May 28th, 2008 at 04:05 | #52

    To Jana,

    I missed your other post,

    Anyone who said anything good about chinese government sold their soul to CCP, that is FLG’s logic, am I right ?

    That is why NYT didnt have any positive report about China, right ?

    Dont even bother to type so much, I live 10 minutes from Flushing, New York. What kind of cold-blood animals would cheer for the earthquake 10 days in a row ? huh ? What kind of religion would make those “chinese” showing no sympathy for those victims in their motherland?

    Dont f@#$ing talk to me about brainwashing, I didnt have much opinion about your beloved cult until the earthquake.

    Let me tell you, after this incident, Falun is finished among Chinese.

    BTW, talking about brainwashing, here is something you would like :

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/2575433/I-SEE-DIFFERENT-TIBET-A-FRENCH-HOTEL-TYCOONS-BIKE-TOUR

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/photo/2008-02/15/content_6458228.htm

    http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

  53. specul8r
    May 28th, 2008 at 05:16 | #53

    here’s the taken from clearwisdom.net:

    “See hate propaganda for what it is

    The CCP lies and slanders Falun Gong, alleging that Falun Gong does not help with disaster relief. They instigate Chinese people to hate Falun Gong, recently employing their henchmen to instigate crowds of hundreds of people to besiege the Flushing Service Center for Quitting the CCP. People were pushing, shoving and violently attacking Falun Gong practitioners. It was strongly reminiscent of the Cultural Revolution in China. Seeing all this, Ms. Li Ailing from Washington DC said, ” I must come to New York to explain to the Chinese there the facts about Falun Gong. Many Falun Gong practitioners were very sad upon learning about the Sichuan earthquake. Falun Gong practitioners use their own ways to provide victims of the earthquake disaster with practical help.”

    She explained that, “The CCP takes advantage of a national disaster to once again smear Falun Gong. Many Chinese read newspapers controlled by the CCP. All reports there are against Falun Gong. Actually, the CCP is the source of disaster for Chinese people. The CCP did not report earthquake forecasts, nor did it warn citizens so that there would have been fewer casualties. Many school buildings collapsed, but few government departments’ buildings collapsed in the earthquake. The CCP was reluctant to allow international relief support to enter. The CCP takes people for granted, and delayed efforts to save people. All of this can be seen by those willing to accept the truth. To save China, people must quit the evil CCP. ”

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    These are the reasons falun gone are pathetic.

    “The CCP lies and slanders Falun Gong, alleging that Falun Gong does not help with disaster relief. They instigate Chinese people to hate Falun Gong, recently employing their henchmen to instigate crowds of hundreds of people to besiege the Flushing Service Center for Quitting the CCP.”

    Chinese people hate falun gone not because of of CCP but their outpouring compassion towards Chinese in homeland and it has nothing to do with CCP’s instigation as alleged by the falun gone propaganda. As always, anyone oppose to falun gone must be sided with CCP, their extreme logic theory.

    “It was strongly reminiscent of the Cultural Revolution in China.”

    This is U.S.A. wake up. Anyone can assemble to counter protest peacefully but as you can see in news video, falun goners invoke the violence because their people were using cameras approaching towards and sticking up to the earthquake sympathetic protesters. They know they can create sensational news to provoke angers so they can claim “see I told you so”.

    Ms. Li Ailing from Washington DC said, “Falun Gong practitioners use their own ways to provide victims of the earthquake disaster with practical help.”

    Hmmm. what is their practical help?

    Then she said, “Many Chinese read newspapers controlled by the CCP. All reports there are against Falun Gong. Actually, the CCP is the source of disaster for Chinese people. The CCP did not report earthquake forecasts, nor did it warn citizens so that there would have been fewer casualties. Many school buildings collapsed, but few government departments’ buildings collapsed in the earthquake. The CCP was reluctant to allow international relief support to enter. The CCP takes people for granted, and delayed efforts to save people. All of this can be seen by those willing to accept the truth. To save China, people must quit the evil CCP. ”

    The only newspaper and TV news that are not CCP influence is “epochtimes” and “NTD TV” because it’s under CIA influence.

    Like U.S. can forecast earthquake for 1994 Nortridge earthquake or look at what has the prediction like “California Has More Than 99% Chance Of A Big Earthquake WIthin 30 Years, Report Shows”. (source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414203459.htm)

    Show me the pictures of government building in the epicenter and I will believe you.

    China allowed rescue workers and aids from Japan,Singapore,Russia,U.S. – where has she been? I think China should allow Li Hongzhi and all falun gones to return to China as rescue workers. Will they return is the question.

    You can never win when you argue with falun goners because their ego is so hugh and they couldn’t hear a word, their heart is so cold and their eyes are spinning with falun at a dizzing spell and can’t see any truth except evil Li and the gang’s order.

  54. Jan
    May 28th, 2008 at 13:45 | #54

    The Chinese Consul General for New York City, Mr. Peng Keyu, was recorded by an investigator for the World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong as he admitted that he had “encouraged” the mobs in Flushing.

    You can visit this website for further details: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-24/70954.html

    The Consul General says, “I have always gone to them and thanked them in person.” He continues, “I ran other things on the scene.”

    The Consul General admits in that conversation that he is playing on the passions generated among the Chinese people by the Sichuan earthquake.

    The Chinese-language media controlled by the Chinese regime have thrown a match on these combustible feelings by reporting that Falun Gong practitioners in Flushing have interfered with the collection of earthquake relief and are against China—although those media reports do not have a single piece of evidence to back up their claims.

    Source: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-28/71101.html

    As for the CCP’s claims of, “Falun Gong adherents are happy about the Sichuan earthquake,” Mike Hu, who is working in Flushing pointed out, “Such sayings probably come from someone with an axe to grind.”

    Hu continued, “I did not see that Falun Gong adherents were against providing disaster relief or gloating over China’s disaster. It is an error in logic to talk about the two topics together. Many people are wrong that Falun Gong practitioners were happy about the earthquake, disagreed with sending relief to the disaster area and hoped that China would have bad luck.”

    “Please take a careful look at their banners—’The Gods bless the Chinese nation.’ The Chinese nation includes all Chinese people. So everyone should take a look or they will be fooled again. It is sad for us, the common people, to be fighting each other again as if it was the Cultural Revolution. Our Chinese nation has gone through too many disasters. I hope everyone will finally live a happy life.”

    Source: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-27/71050.html

  55. Buxi
    May 28th, 2008 at 16:05 | #55

    Jan,

    The Chinese Consul General for New York City, Mr. Peng Keyu, was recorded by an investigator for the World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong as he admitted that he had “encouraged” the mobs in Flushing.

    You can visit this website for further details: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-5-24/70954.html

    The Consul General says, “I have always gone to them and thanked them in person.” He continues, “I ran other things on the scene.”

    The Consul General admits in that conversation that he is playing on the passions generated among the Chinese people by the Sichuan earthquake.

    I’ve gone to the above link and listened to the recording, and I encourage others to do the same. You can compare it to the English translation.

    And the result is precisely why so many Chinese have become increasingly disgusted with the Falun Gong. The article is a clear twist on the consul-general’s words.

    The consul-general, in the spirit of full disclosure (apparently thinking the caller is someone he can trust?), admits that he gives “signals” to the overseas Chinese organizations about key issues. But even with a trusted caller, he doesn’t say anything about “organizing” the protests. He only says he personally thanked the overseas Chinese groups who’ve led the protests, and that he believes one of his important responsibilities is making sure overseas Chinese groups feel a part of the Chinese community.

    All of this boils down to the Chinese community having had enough of the Falun Gong’s message. Saying “God Destroys the Chinese Communists” in the aftermath of an earthquake that killed 80,000 people has successfully unleashed the fury of a whole community that’s usually very passive.

  56. specul8r
    May 28th, 2008 at 21:59 | #56

    source: http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-1904-1-1.html

    what i learn on the western media
    A devastating disaster came!

    We won’t be defeated.

    The western media remains silence when they withnessed our government’s quick action and perfect relief aid!

    While some of them still misunderstood China and its government.They accused that it was unfair that China turned

    down their request of coming to China to do some commentary report.

    When I heard this news,I was quite striking.I know that you western people consider life as everything.How can you

    commented that China had done wrong.

    As we all know,every minute counts,even in rescuing time.I don’t know why can you come up with such a foolish question.

    You said that you have the rights to report the truth. But you don’t have the rights to add burdens to the government there.

    Chinese government now focus on rescuing people who are still suffering.They have no time for your visit and have no extra

    hand to protect you.

    Please think of others before thinking of yourself.If you can’t,you can’t be a real journalist or reporter,cause your purpose

    is very simple,which is money or others.

    All in all, I am not going to against the western media.It’s their fault,not mine.I needn’t to be angry about those lies.It’s no use.

    What I going to do is to protect and construct my country.And we’ll be stronger and stronger.

    At last,welcome to Beijing!

  57. specul8r
    May 28th, 2008 at 22:05 | #57

    Crying Nurse Guides Rescue Team

    http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-1917-1-1.h

  58. specul8r
    May 28th, 2008 at 22:30 | #58

    Source: http://www.gmw.cn/01gmrb/2008-05/17/content_775470.htm

    “I won’t have you saying that!”
    “I won’t have you saying that!” (Liu Jun, Guangming Correspondent, Geneva, 2008-05-17 07:37, source: GuangMing Daily) 【Translation】ltbriar “I won’t have you saying that!” Marie Heuzé, the Director of the United Nations Information Service in Geneva, today rebutted certain Western reporter criticism on China’s quake relief based on the so-called “Freedom of the Press”. The attack by severe earthquake in Wenchuan area of China receives strong concerns from the World. Swift and effective relief efforts by the Chinese Government also gained international approval and a lot of media applauded “China impressed the World”. Yet in midst of Chinese people’s heavily involved in their relief work, certain Western reporter tied the so-called “Freedom of the Press” with China’s relief work over a regular Press Briefing in UN’s Office at Geneva,Europe, but was strongly countered by the spokesperson of UN, as well as spokespersons of various UN organizations, who all highly rated China’s relief efforts. In this morning’s News Briefing, various UN organizations gave briefing over Chinese progress in its relief, and details on the joint relief efforts by UN and China. Just when the Briefing was about to end, a Western reporter claimed that Chinese Government’s prohibiting Western media from entering the quake zone for news coverage was a violation of “the Freedom of the Press”. His comment was strongly rebutted. Marie Heuzé, the Director of the United Nations Information Service, not her usual self of being calm and nice, instantly gave a strong response, “I won’t have you saying that!” Then she explained in detail the cooperation of UN with China after Wenchuan’s quake. She emphasized that rescue effort is to save lives, an humanity emergency which should never be tied to other unrelated issues. Elizabeth Byrs, spokesperson for the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in her reddened eyes and shaken voice, commented that the rescue was a race with time; the quicker the relief team reached ground zero, the more chance of saving one more life. The prime most important mission for the first few days after the quake was to rescue lives under the debris. Chinese relief teams faced severe conditions of road blockages which disabled moving heavy equipments on site. The fact that they rushed to the sites on foot and rescued with bare hands by itself was remarkable. She stressed that the cooperation between the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs and China had been very smooth since the quake. The principle of rescue relief is to guarantee the swift mobilization of China’s own relief forces on site for emergency rescue, and China did not deny International relief efforts. Other UN spokespersons also expressed that media should be objective and fair, and should not relate humanity relief with other issues, that they will try their best in assisting Chinain its relief and rebuilding. Listening to all these voices, from the press area I raised my hand to request to speak. My request was granted and I tried to hold back my emotion to speak calmly to about a hundred reporters on the scene,”I have to give this uninformed inquirer a lesson of “Geography and Ethics”! China is much bigger than Europe, and the quake occurred in remote mountain areas in S.W. China. With the severe damage made by the quake, and on top of the bad weather, even Chinese relief teams were unable to be right on spot in the epic centre area. How will it be possible under such poor transport and communications conditions, that we, at the expense of saving valuable lives, allow foreign reporters unfamiliar with local condition and languages to be there first? Western media uses to claim they “cherish Life on top of everything”, don’t they? Just how could you intervene our life-saving efforts by the so-called “Freedom of the Press”?! There was a complete silence. (May 16, 2008 Guang Ming Daily, from Geneva)

    「我不許你這麼說!」本報駐日內瓦記者 劉軍 發佈時間:2008-05-17 07:37 來源:光明日報「我不許你這麼說!」——聯合國新聞發言人瑪麗·厄澤女士今天嚴詞駁斥了某西方記者以所謂「新聞自由」抨擊中國抗震救災的言論。中國汶川地區遭受特大地震災害後,受到全世界的強烈關注。中國政府迅速有力的救災行動也得到了全世界的認可和讚揚,不少媒體稱讚「中國令世界感動」。然而就在中國人民頑強抗震救災的危急關頭,極個別西方記者今天卻在日內瓦聯合國歐洲辦事處舉行的新聞發佈會上,將中國的抗震救災與所謂的「新聞自由」強行聯繫在一起,遭到高度評價中國救災工作的聯合國新聞發言人、聯合國各組織發言人的嚴詞反駁。在今天上午的新聞發佈會上,聯合國各組織首先介紹了中國抗震救災的進展情況和聯合國與中國在抗震救災過程中團結協作的詳情。就在新聞發佈會即將結束之際, 一名西方媒體記者提問稱,中國政府不許西方記者進入災區報導,有悖「新聞自由」。此言一出,當即引起強烈的反應。聯合國新聞發言人厄澤女士一反慣常的沉穩溫和態度,嚴厲地搶先回應道:「我不許你這麼說!」隨後,她詳細地解釋了汶川發生地震災害後聯合國與中國的合作情況。她強調,抗震救災是搶救生命,是人道主義緊急救援行動,絕不能與其他不相干的事情聯繫在一起。聯合國人道主義救援署發言人伊莎貝拉·比爾斯女士紅了眼圈,她聲音顫抖地說,抗震救災是在與時間賽跑,救援人員早進入災區一秒鍾,就能多救出一條生命。災情發生後的前幾天最重要的任務是搶救被埋在廢墟下的生命。中國救援人員是在道路交通嚴重堵塞,重型機械無法進入救援現場的情況下,徒步前進,用雙手搶救受災群眾,可歌可泣。她強調,聯合國人道主義救援署與中國的合作從地震發生伊始就非常順暢,救災的原則是首先保證讓中國自己的救援人員迅速進入災區開展緊急搶救,中國也並沒有拒絕國際援助。其他聯合國組織發言人也紛紛表示,媒體應該客觀公正,不能將人道主義救援與其他問題牽扯在一起,表示將盡一切努力幫助中國抗震救災,重建家園。聽到這些公正的聲音,坐在台下記者席中的我也再按捺不住,立刻舉手要求發言。得到發言許可後,面對現場百餘名記者,我強忍心中的激動,努力維持平穩的語速:「我要給這位無知提問者上一堂『地理和道德課』!中國的面積比歐洲還大,而且地震災區位於中國西南部的偏遠山區。地震造成的破壞巨大,加之氣候條件惡劣,即便是中國救援人員都很難在第一時間進入災區中心地帶。怎麼能在交通通訊資源已經非常匱乏的情況下,置危在旦夕的生命於不顧,而讓不瞭解當地環境和語言的外國記者首先進入?西方媒體不是一向標榜『最珍惜生命』的嗎,怎麼能以所謂的『新聞自由』來干擾我們搶救生命的努力?!」全場靜默。(本報日內瓦5月 16日電) http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/thread-54664-1-1.html [ Last edited by TRuth-home at 19-5-2008 17:14 ]

  59. May 29th, 2008 at 01:45 | #59

    I am deeply sorry that you cannot see the truth of Falun Gong and that you insist on supporting a brutal communist regime who murders and tortures anyone who puts a higher power ahead of it.

    I won’t be speaking any further on these matters on this blog as it appears to fall on deaf and already poisoned hearts and minds. This is what I am most sad about for you.

    I will hope and pray for the Chinese people to come thru this great tradgedy that has befallen them now.

    Take care and please in you hearts remember “Falun Dafa Hao”!

  60. Buxi
    May 29th, 2008 at 03:13 | #60

    specul8r,

    Are you a regular visitor on Anti-CNN? I don’t have time to visit, but I would be happy to translate anything on your site that you think the Western audience might be interested in seeing.

    http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/?p=121
    http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/?page_id=2

  61. Jennifer
    May 30th, 2008 at 00:59 | #61

    Your comments that Falun Gong members were showing their ‘ugly side’ are complete garbage. I had friends that went to the Falun Gong meeting and commented on how amazingly peaceful those people were. But considering the brutal methods the CCP used to suppress Falun Gong, I am not at all suprised that they are still quite angry. How would you feel if you had family members tortured and murdered for absolutely no good reason what so ever?

    Furthermore, any members of Chinese diasporas, or members of diasporas of any national origin for that matter, that attempt to infringe upon the free-speech or freedom of religion of US citizens via intimidation should be deported from this country PERMANENTLY. To use CCP style rhetoric, “Such acts hurt the feelings of the American people and are an affront to American values and principles.” BTW, I am not anti-Chinese, but I will not condone barbaric tactics of Chinese citizens in my own country. As I see more and more of such shameful acts being perpetrated by Chinese citizens, I lose more and more respect for them.

  62. DJ
    May 30th, 2008 at 01:32 | #62

    Jannifer,

    And what are those “barbaric tactics of Chinese citizens”? Please provide some examples with evidence.

  63. DJ
    May 30th, 2008 at 02:07 | #63

    Jana,

    I am sorry that you feel disappointed. Please be assured this blog is not meant for only those who think alike. If so, what would be the point?

    I would also like to respectfully suggest that your accusation of “poisoned hearts and minds” is misplaced. As far as I can tell, a majority of the people participating on this site engage in discussions and debates in good faith.

    As for your defense of FLG in the context of this blog post “fall[ing] on deaf”, I would like to point to your own blog site and the entry titled “China’s earthquake tribute”, which contains the following:

    CHINA EARTHQUAKE TRIBUTE
    Precious Chinese people
    I am grieving for you
    The earth is trembling
    And your eyes are filled with fear
    Your children are dying
    Your family is suffering
    From the bottom of my heart, I wish for you:
    Quit the CCP Hurry! Quit the CCP
    Quit the CCP Hurry! Quit the CCP
    Heaven’s will is clear
    Make a choice for your future
    Hurry! Hurry! Quit the CCP

    I think I speak for most of the readers that we do not agree with your position. When tragedy of this kind hit, the most important thing on our mind is definitely not what the CCP do or what to do about the CCP.

    And by the way, I am not pro-CCP. I am just pro-China.

  64. Jennifer
  65. specul8r
    May 30th, 2008 at 05:13 | #65

    Buxi,

    I am not that regular visit that site but I told my western friends about the western media bias regarding China. I am not from China but I am Chinese American now and when people sell their country to lie about our motherland, I am angry and will expose all those scums to show who is telling the truth.

  66. Jennifer
    May 30th, 2008 at 05:26 | #66
  67. Jennifer
    May 30th, 2008 at 05:28 | #67
  68. specul8r
    May 30th, 2008 at 05:48 | #68

    Jennifer,

    “I had friends that went to the Falun Gong meeting and commented on how amazingly peaceful those people were. But considering the brutal methods the CCP used to suppress Falun Gong, I am not at all suprised that they are still quite angry.”

    You are contradicting yourself; peaceful people will not get angry; enlightened people will not get angry because they know what is enlightened means and people who don’t usually think they are enlightened but they are not. If you want to know more on spiritual words, go and read J. Krishnamurti and you will understand what I am talking about.

    “Furthermore, any members of Chinese diasporas, or members of diasporas of any national origin for that matter, that attempt to infringe upon the free-speech or freedom of religion of US citizens via intimidation should be deported from this country PERMANENTLY.”

    To instill fear will have no affects on people who has done everything according to the law. We didn’t burn cross and we didn’t spray swastika on the walls of synagogue or things like that nature. How are we intimidating, madam? We are expressing our disgust of why falun gone members are not doing as normal human beings should to help the suffering fellow chinese people in their homeland; instead, they were celebrating days after days of “heaven destroy china”. Even if they don’t have donation drive, that’s understandable but why celebrating “heaven destroy china” during this emotional period? It’s very insensitive part of their culture that invoke regular Chinese to get angry at them.

    “To use CCP style rhetoric, “Such acts hurt the feelings of the American people and are an affront to American values and principles.” BTW, I am not anti-Chinese, but I will not condone barbaric tactics of Chinese citizens in my own country. As I see more and more of such shameful acts being perpetrated by Chinese citizens, I lose more and more respect for them.”

    Let me ask you this, have you been to China and see things with your own eyes or you just hear hearsay from certain people? Many Americans and Canadians have completely change their stance against China after they actually visited China and Tibet, and started to realize their countries were feeding them biased news and recent FLG media is one of the source of negative biased news. For your information, I am not Chinese citizens.

  69. Jen
    May 30th, 2008 at 06:33 | #69

    “I am not Chinese citizens.”

    OK. Try, “I am not a Chinese citizen.” Judging from your lack of command of English, you aren’t a US citizen either. Anyways, I’ve known people who have visited or lived in China who came back with a less than favorable impression of it. Anyways, RE: barbaric tactics, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb8v4j6nLko

  70. DJ
    May 30th, 2008 at 06:53 | #70

    Jennifer,

    You have said “I had friends that went to the Falun Gong meeting and commented on how amazingly peaceful those people were.” This seems to mean that you are positioning to make the comment as a neutral third party observer. But your posting of the video from the mouth piece of Falun Gong leads me to suspect that you are actually a follower of Falun Gong. So please help us understand where you are coming from. Are you a Falun Gong follower or not?

  71. DJ
    May 30th, 2008 at 07:01 | #71

    Jen,

    There is no need to mock someone’s imperfection in mastering the English. And I fail to see how this helps you make a point in this thread of discussion/debate.

    And are you the same person as Jennifer?

  72. Jen
    May 30th, 2008 at 17:23 | #72

    My point is that “specul8r” is lying about not being a Chinese citizen. I have taught English to Chinese speakers before and I know exactly what kind of grammar errors they make. And if “specul8r” is not a Chinese citizen, why does he/she refer to a collective “we” when trying to defend the Chinese mob in Flushing? This blog is clearly a joke.

  73. Buxi
    May 30th, 2008 at 17:36 | #73

    Jen,

    Really? Grammar mistakes are related to citizenship and political status? Well, I am a Chinese citizen, and proud of it. Am I making the kind of grammar errors that “we” make?

    There must be a joke here, but I’m not sure it’s the blog that’s responsible.

    On this blog, we’re trying to get past emphasis on grammar (and even citizenship status). Think you can try responding to specul8r’s numerous other points?

  74. wahaha
    May 30th, 2008 at 19:10 | #74

    Jen is liar, she is a Falun goner.

    Only a Falun goner would call the chinese protestors in Flushing, NY “mob”.

  75. specul8r
    May 31st, 2008 at 00:45 | #75

    to Jen,

    “OK. Try, “I am not a Chinese citizen.” Judging from your lack of command of English, you aren’t a US citizen either. Anyways, I’ve known people who have visited or lived in China who came back with a less than favorable impression of it.”

    What make you so sure that I am a Chinese citizen? 🙂 Just because I am against falun gone? You are dead wrong over and over. I am not against those people who practice spiritual way of living but I am against those leaders who teach flase spiritual ways with instilling fear on their followers, using borrowed terms from Buddhism without fully understand what the terminology means, and besides… their hidden propaganda of political movements. I don’t get involve in politics and I can care more or less of what Communist do or do not. but I am in favor of speaking the truths and I find truths not from one sided reports like you all have from epochtimes or NTDTV.

    Since I was so critical of those falun gone leaders and you are so defensive for falun gone, you must be one of the leaders of those falun gone. “You have known people visited …” but you are not the ‘first person experience’ of the truth. If you can take other people’s truth because they look so kind and naive, you should be worried about yourself. Buddha Sakyamuni said to his disciples, “Don’t take all of my words as truth because I am so and so, you have to test them, contemplate them and experience them. If you don’t experience the same as I said, then those are not the truths to you.” Can you or falun gone practioners do that?

    I know exactly why you suspect of me a Chinese Citizen. You have read those (bad) english translation I posted. I didn’t change a thing and I posted the way it was in the anti-cnn.com forum.

    May you be enlightened someday.

  76. specul8r
    May 31st, 2008 at 00:53 | #76

    To Jen,

    “My point is that “specul8r” is lying about not being a Chinese citizen. I have taught English to Chinese speakers before and I know exactly what kind of grammar errors they make. And if “specul8r” is not a Chinese citizen, why does he/she refer to a collective “we” when trying to defend the Chinese mob in Flushing? This blog is clearly a joke.”

    I can meet with you face to face and proof to you 100% that I am not a Chinese citizen. If you are wrong, will you apologize to the moderator of this blog? I dare you to take this challenge. 🙂

    For your information, I am in California and nowhere near to be at Flushing, N.Y. I was expressing as “we” on this blog and not representing in Flushing, N.Y. haha.

    May you be enlightened someday.

  77. specul8r
    May 31st, 2008 at 01:04 | #77

    Buxi,

    Jennifer wants to get at me because she cannot defend those points on this blog and the only way to discredit me is to smear me as “Chinese Citizen”, just like “falun goner” do and no doubt about that she is one like them. I don’t mix politics with spiritual living nor sports. Let the politicians do their own politics.

  78. specul8r
    June 1st, 2008 at 01:05 | #78

    why “falun gone is a cult”

    Here’s the proof why falun gone is “self promoting cult” by watching these falun gone propaganda websites and sites that refute the images are hoax

    Falun Gone propaganda websites:
    1) Images (google search – udumbara flower + falun gong)
    http://images.google.com/images?q=udumbara%20flower%20falun%20gong&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=DVFA,DVFA:1970–2,DVFA:en&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

    2) udumbara flower found in Australia (clearwisdom.net)
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/9/2/89172.html

    3) udumbara flower found in California (clearwisdom.net)
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/8/18/88700.html

    4) udumbara video broadcast from NTDTV to promote another Buddha (meaning LHZ) returning to save mankind
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7mycKWApIc

    ___________________________________

    ARE YOU READY? COMPARE IMAGES FROM LACEWING EGG WITH UDUMBARA FLOWER (as falun gone sites claimed) AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. READ 2 FOR EXPLANATION.

    1) IMAGES OF LACEWING EGG (GOOGLE SEARCH)
    http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=lacewing+egg&spell=1

    2) FLOWERS GROWING ON STEEL? I BEG TO DIFFER…
    http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2007/06/20/flowers-grow-on-steel-pipe-in-china.htm

    ___________________________________

    Do you see now why falun gone has been telling the truth? They lied and cheated their members to make LHZ appears larger than life, a new BUDDHA returning to the world to save mankind. Yeah… right.

  79. Wahaha
    June 1st, 2008 at 03:45 | #79

    Today, (Sunday) Falun goners gathered again in Flushing, New York, around noon time, talking about how CCP caused the earthquake.

  80. lee
    June 1st, 2008 at 06:20 | #80

    As Chinese American, all I want to see is CCP to stop the persecution of innocent people, that’s all. We all know the communist offers no human rights in China and that’s a fact! I support FLG simply they are the only group dare to stand up to the communist. Obviously, there are some pro communist Chinese people here in the states and you know what, they are not welcomed here.

  81. Wahaha
    June 2nd, 2008 at 02:49 | #81

    Lee,

    As you support FLG, your opinion means nothing to Chinese. More or less, we dont consider you as one of Chinese and you are not welcome in China.

  82. lee
    June 2nd, 2008 at 04:08 | #82

    w,
    i think otherwise. Perhaps communist won’t welcome people like me, but just like FLG said, Communist ruled China not equal to China.
    Is the word “we” in your comment represent the ordinary Chinese people, or communist party, or other group or individual? Please specify. As far as I know, there are still people practice FLG in China silently, do you consider these people Chinese?
    BTW, you sound very much like a communist by threaten and against anyone who think different, but you know what, this is America and I can support who ever I want.

  83. specul8r
    June 2nd, 2008 at 05:43 | #83

    Lee,

    A cult is a cult no matter how it is practicing silently or not. Will you support David Koresh and Branch Davidian of Waco Texas if they were practicing silently? Will you support Jim Jones, Heaven’s Gate by knowingly they are cult and mind their own business?

    It has been repeatedly shown that falun gone group is not practicing of their “truthfulness-compassion-forbearance” at all; they cheat and lie, they have no compassion to humanity and their compassion is narrowly defined to falun goners only, and they don’t have any forbearance quality at all. The leaders has been cheating practioners who were originally innocent people and turn them into anti-China for their political purpose and use them as scapegoat to die for their cult leader.

  84. lee
    June 2nd, 2008 at 15:15 | #84

    from my observance, flg has no history of your claim out side of China. Only the communist china started called them cult in their propagandas, and you know what, I never trust them nor their controlled media.
    The communist made a mistake by started everything and it just got too brutal, now will cause them a lot of trouble to get it resolved because unlike any other group/individual, it seems flg is the toughest and isn’t going away anytime soon. The communist party has many issues on its hand inside China, corruption, Olympic, earthquake, pollutions, etc, and they got the flg and tibet pressure from outside of China. FLG is the toughest “challenger” communist faced so far. If flg is really a cult, communist would have got rid of them long time ago, but til today, flg still exists in China, and how is it possible they can diminish flg outside of China?
    People can tell me flg is bad this and bad that, but they seem very peaceful and never caused much trouble.

  85. Wahaha
    June 2nd, 2008 at 17:29 | #85

    Lee,

    I met dozns of new oversea chinese students in last 5 years, I went back to China and met hundreds of China, none of them talk any negative things about this governemnt.

    When I asked them what they think of the dissidents in USA, the answers were “let them mess up with themselves.” or ” what on earth do they want from China ? another India or another Russia ? ”

    Enjoy your rampage, we dont give a damn. As you call me a CCP member, you are damn wrong, I participated in 1986 and 1989 democracy demonstration. I dont care communism or capitalism, one party system or two party sysme, it is a good government if majority of its people support it.

    BTW, I have seen the west democracy, China would be in complete chaos with west democracy. Maybe that is what you like to see, sorry we wont listen to you.

  86. Buxi
    June 2nd, 2008 at 17:40 | #86

    I think FLG is more like a religion than a cult, but I don’t know how to properly distinguish between “cult” and “religion” in English. FLG is certainly not similar to other traditional “Chinese” religions; it’s very secular, and it paints unbelievers as potentially being evil and dangerous. As I’ve discussed before, traditionally, religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, ancestor-worship) were treated more as schools of thought.

    Most Chinese borrowed teachings from these religions as necessary; if you were to look closely, I think it’s probable that even the Chinese who’ve converted to Christianity still burn incense at a Buddhist temple now and then.

    The FLG has been very successful in terms of maintaining a presence on the mainland, that’s certain. Despite tight government censorship, truth is many (most?) Chinese have been “exposed” to FLG writings. This is done through random telephone calls, fliers stuffed into mailboxes, random emails, chatting online via QQ or MSN. I personally know many have read the infamous 9 Commentaries, for example.

    But my personal observations tell me that FLG claims that it is building any influence in China today, taht it is a “challenger”… that’s a complete myth. All of this exposure hasn’t increased any sort of public sympathy for FLG in China.

    The FLG’s ridiculous claims which make it suspicious in the West (30 million resigned from the Communist Party?), also make it suspicious in mainland China. The one-sided, one-minded political agenda in its writings have inoculated many Chinese against what they have to say. Most netizens are just annoyed at being repeatedly spammed, and mock the messages they receive.

  87. lee
    June 2nd, 2008 at 18:56 | #87

    w,
    I traveled all over China twice on train for 2 months twice and both was a good experience. The “happy Chinese” are those got richer over the past years but that’s still a very limited number. A lot Chinese are still poor, many are unhappy about the conditions and unfair treatment. Yes, I agree on the economic side of china has improved and many people got richer. However, there are so many problems exists that fundamentally impossible to resolve. For example, no check and balance, top to down corruptions, and deteriorate moral standard, etc, and if you ask me, communist government is the origin of these problems. Some people said to allow some time to change, I am very optimistic on that suggestion. If democracy works in Taiwan, why it won’t work in China? Back to the subject on flg, regardless their political intention or not, it’s only good for all the Chinese people that the flg’s pressure putting on the communist government for the better.
    Out of curiosity, why did you participate 6/4, and why you’ve changed your views now?

  88. Wahaha
    June 2nd, 2008 at 21:08 | #88

    Lee,

    That is right, there are still tons of problem in China, that doesnt mean democracy wouldve solved the problem, actually there would be lot more problems in China with west democracy. Actually, West democracy is basically “mememe” philosophy, and never work well in a poor or developing country. and it has allowed all kinds of garbage flooding into every corner of the society.

    Let me use an example to illustrate the situation in China :

    Suppose you have to take 20 children to lunch, one of the children wants McDonald, one wants pizza, one wants chinese foods, one wants donkin donuts, etc.

    What will you do ?

    No matter where you take them to, there will be some kids who are unhappy with the food YOU CHOOSE FOR HIM.

    So the best you can do is to make most of them happy; if 18 or 19 of 20 children liked the foods, you did an excellent job, THOUGH ONE OR TWO CHILDREN ARE UNHAPPY.

    Now imagine you have to live with 20 children for 4 weeks, sometimes, sometimes you will yell “shut up.”

    That is the problem of human right in China West has been talking about in last 10 years.

  89. Wahaha
    June 2nd, 2008 at 21:09 | #89

    Here is the so-called west democracy :

    Russell A. Castro Department of Sociology & Criminal Justice Southeastern Louisiana University, proposed the Elite Model for Americal politics in which he states:

    The elite model argues that power within society is highly concentrated. The elite model posits THREE levels of power in American society:

    1) the power-elite (extremely powerful) 2) the government (powerful) 3) the mass public (relatively powerless).

    Less than 1% of the U.S population own approximately 85% of the nations “income-producing-wealth.”
    (Diana Kendall 1999, Sociology in Our Times)

    The top 400 households in the United States earned over 1% of the total income paid out to the ENTIRE U.S national population of 280 MILLION people.(New York Times 2003)

    The tiny “Power-Elite” class control: Energy (Oil, Natural Gas, and other energy technologies). Banking & Investment Securities. Insurance (life/health, property, & commercial). Transportation (Automobile, Aircraft, and Sea Vessel production & sales + the air-travel and transport businesses). Pharmaceuticals. Commercial Food Production. The Mass Media (TV, Radio, & Entertainment).

    THE ELITE MODEL: Summarized In this way, candidates selected (through economic support) by the elite compete in elections arranged and driven by organizations supported by the elite (political parties) and are voted into office (and thus, made legitimate) by the mass-public, who get all of their information about the social world (and about politics) from the mass media, which is dominated and controlled by the elite.

  90. Wahaha
    June 2nd, 2008 at 21:15 | #90

    About corruption, it is universal problem, Russia had widespread problem of corruption under Yeltin.

    the same in US, Bernard Kerik

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Kerik

    ……..
    A week later, Kerik withdrew his nomination, explaining that he had employed an illegal immigrant as a nanny; subsequently, numerous allegations surfaced which would likely have led to a confirmation battle. In 2006, Kerik pled guilty to two unrelated ethics violations after an investigation by the Bronx District Attorney’s Office, and was ordered to pay $221,000. He is currently under Federal investigation: A grand jury issued a multi-count indictment on November 8, 2007 alleging conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud and lying to the IRS. Kerik surrendered to authorities on Friday, November 9, 2007, was arraigned before Magistrate Judge George Yanthis in White Plains, New York Federal Court, and pled not guilty to all 16 charges

    BTW, for those who dont know who Bernard Kerik is :

    he was the chief of NYPD during 911, a hero at that time

    ____________________________

    Of course, as you hate chinese government, you will blame anything bad in China on the government.

  91. Wahaha
    June 2nd, 2008 at 21:30 | #91

    To your question :

    Out of curiosity, why did you participate 6/4, and why you’ve changed your views now?

    My answer :

    We didnt try to overthrow the government, we wanted west democracy and believed that China would be much much better with west democracy. (for example, see the way they handle after Katrina, government doesnt care.)

    Then I came to Ameria, I found out the West system is basically a system for rich, totally different from what I believed. and More, West system caused tons of social problems in society : drug, mafia, unions (they fighted for every dollars even in recession, as result, lot of city bankrupts), paying lot more than necessary for medication.

    What is worse, people know the problems, but the system wont be able to solve them.

    I am not saying chinese government is perfect, it will get better gradually, a change like in Russia would be a disaster for China and chinese people.

  92. lee
    June 2nd, 2008 at 21:42 | #92

    w,
    First of all, in your example, to treat Chinese people as “children” is not appropriate and disrespectful. Second, Chinese people were never able or offered to choose “pizza” or “McDonald”.
    Like I said earlier, Taiwan already proves that democracy can work for the Chinese, it already paved a way and set example to illustrate how the nationalist gave up its power and adopted democracy. But of course, the Nationalist is not at the same level as Communist.
    American government is not perfect but that’s another topic and if you want to discuss, we can focus on that later on.

  93. DJ
    June 2nd, 2008 at 23:23 | #93

    Lee,

    I actually see the Taiwan model to be a big failure disappointment, so far. It’s a miracle that Taiwan wasn’t torn apart in the last eight years. (Hmm, I should qualify my claim; I mean physically. Psychologically, …)

    If you think the last seven and half years are bad in the US, Taiwan serves as a reminder that it could have gotten much much worse. Yes, they elected Ma now and it is interesting to see how things would be turned around in the next 4 or 8 years. I wish the best for Taiwan as it struggling to get out of its prolonged nightmare.

    Call my perspective a glass half empty one, but I simply see Taiwan serving as a bad example of how disruptive and destructive it could be for a system to transit to the democracy in a sudden manner. And don’t forget that the overall condition in Taiwan was far more favorable for such a transition than it is currently in the mainland.

  94. Wahaha
    June 3rd, 2008 at 00:45 | #94

    Lee,

    The job of a government is making its people living better and happier.

    How does it accomplish that ? Listen to its people (children in my analog), see what they need and design the best plan and carry it out.

    Did west system accomplish that ? No. The following are some examples and explanation :

    ________________________________

    WEST SYSTEM IS BUILT ON WEALTH, the reason you feel so perfect about this system is that you are allowed to make $10,000 more after 3 years while those richest make 10 million dollar more. That is why US system worked so perfectly after WWII till 1970s.

    For example, the current oil price, one effective way is that Government put pressure on those oil companies giving away some of their profits. Did you ever hear your media talking about ” the pocket of oil companies is getting fatter and fatter.” ? Bush will never do that, Obama wont be able to do that even he wants to.

    NRA, the national rifle organization, why cant congress pass a simple and reasonable law of background check ? and Read your media, it is like either complete ban of gun sale or no control at all, like there is nothing in between. Why didnt your media set up a column talking about effective law that keep guns from criminals ?

    Even in economy recession, no money is spared on military,(you know that one less SR-71 plane wouldve saved a big city for a year.) NEVER !!! WHY? Lockheed Martin corp wouldnt allow that !!! Did you ever see your media talking about cutting military spending ?

    In 1998, when government had surplus for the first time in 20+ years, Greenspan suggested to pay back some debts with surplus, which is the idea of Reaganism. What happened ? Nothing !!! You know why ? cuz Wall street didnt like it, they wanted to use those money to booming the economy so they could keep making millions and millions of dollars.

    Now about New Orlean, since after the first 1 month of Katrina, how often do you hear media talking about rebuilding Katrina or the current situation in New Orlean? what happened to those people who lost their house ? How were those schools that were under water during Katrina ? Why was there no reports? Why not government order one less SR-71 plane ? 100 million dollars wouldve done tons of help to the poor people in New Orlean.

    ____________________________

    Before you criticize chinese government, you should know two concepts :
    1) the difference between criticizing the government and bashing the government.
    2) The differnece between “you can vote.” and ” your vote count.”

    and also you should explain why China would be better with the idea system in your mind. Taiwan was one party system all the time until about 1990, the democracy didnt do much for Taiwan. Chinese certainly dont want to become another India.

    Actually, Chinese government listen to its people lot more than West unless someone try to bash the system, which is not allowed in West either, remember McCathyism ?

  95. lee
    June 3rd, 2008 at 02:34 | #95

    Good info, it makes me realize the good part being here in the states is we are able to gather more information than in China and thus allowing people to think independently. Let’s face it, none of us could openly discuss this flg issues in china’s website without getting into trouble from the police. Is it good or bad?
    To keep matter simple and focus on the topic on the discussion, and after read over almost every reply on this blog, I think people here forgot what the fundamental cause of our disagreements. Many here don’t agree with flg and related activity but few ask why they are doing it. Instead arguing round and round, situation would be better here if we can dig to the root of the problem of argument. From my record and to trace back, it was the communist started to defame and persecution of flg, and that leads to all the headaches and public relations nightmare they are facing now. If communist weren’t being so harsh and maybe used other more peaceful methods, I think we wouldn’t see so many flg handing out flyers and newspapers, thus we wouldn’t be here arguing our hearts out. Personally, I think the communist have overdone it and it was a mistake.
    Now if we look at the whole picture:
    At one corner in the ring, we got the Communist party, they are well equipped, they got guns, they got army, they got big propaganda machine, they got years of experiences of hurting people, and they got every tricks in the book and never ever fail a battle they encounter….. And at the other corner, we got some naïve, silly civilians, they got no weapon, no experience, not much resources, no supporters and way out numbered, the only weapon is the so-call flg belief. The fight would be over before it gets started by looking at these contestants if I was the judge. Early in the fight, the communist came out from nowhere and threw the first punch and normally that should be more than enough, flg swallow it hard but amazingly didn’t get knocked out. It would take a miracle to win but Flg continue on with the fight for several years, and now is gaining some momentum. Hey people, if anybody is witnessing, you got give some credit to flg because they are the underdog, they got some awkward style, and they are putting the communist in defense.
    Okay, all jokes aside, us Chinese don’t like violence and prefer peace, so why can’t them make peace with one another and it would be over? In my opinion, the initial gesture should be made by the communist; after all, they are the instigator and started the trouble. However, truce is unlike to happen because communist took it too extreme and they never admit wrong doing. Donald Trump said this:”if somebody punches you, you have to punches back ten times harder.” So how can anyone blame them for their way of survival?
    Lastly, on the Flushing incident, if the Chinese communist can’t diminish flg in China, you think some people in Flushing will succeed? Well, unless you are worse than the communist.

  96. Buxi
    June 3rd, 2008 at 04:06 | #96

    Lee,

    You’ll have to explain this to me. Why is the FLG “fighting” the Communists at all? Why can’t individual FLG practictioners work on improving themselves, and be happy with it?

    What is the motivation behind trying to gain power in China and amongst the Chinese community? Is it revenge, or what? If you really care about “injustice”, there’s a lot of it in the world. Why do you care about injustice more in China than you do in Iraq, for example?

    I’m not asking the question to argue. I’m genuinely curious. I’ve never understood why FLG followers invest so much time in fighting the Communist Party.

  97. Buxi
    June 3rd, 2008 at 04:07 | #97

    Wahaha,

    Great comments, and hope you’ll contribute your stories to the 6/4 discussions we will have in upcoming days.

  98. Junn
    June 3rd, 2008 at 04:44 | #98

    lee,

    “Obviously, there are some pro communist Chinese people here in the states and you know what, they are not welcomed here.”

    On a simple note, as an American myself, I don’t think you can say or restrict people to enter America. People are allowed to have opinions (I’m not saying that they are CCP supporters), remember the point you’re trying to make; America is a democracy and people are allowed to have their own opinions.

    So, who the hell are YOU to say other Chinese are not welcomed in America??You’re also Chinese judging by your name…It’s not a decision for you to make in the first place! So stop acting as though you speak for all Americans…

    Before hearing this news & watching the videos on the internet, I had a positive image of FG, but after this incident…They’ve proved that they’re no better than the CCP. My deepest sympathy for the Chinese people (parents who lost their only child).
    My partner and I will donate whatever we can.

  99. lee
    June 3rd, 2008 at 06:03 | #99

    b,
    My guessing is the communist will continue their brutality on flg and others if nobody speaks out. flg is simply seeking justice.
    j,
    Pretty much everyone knows Communist is about dictatorship, America is about democorcy and freedom. So please don’t tell me Americans would prefer dictatorship over democracy. Yes I am not afraid to say I don’t like communist because I have some personal reasons, and that’s why I come to America to get away from them. Give you one example, when people immigrant here and applying for citizenship, one of the question I remember is “are you a member of the Chinese Party?” Obviously, that question proves America does not welcome communist and communism.

  100. Wahaha
    June 3rd, 2008 at 14:44 | #100

    Lee,

    There is no peaceful way to ban Falun, as it didnt allow any doubt, let alone criticism. So the problem comes down : Do you think Falun would do great harm to China and Chinese people ? and if it did, then how should chinese government ban it ? I dont totaly agree the way chinese government handling Falun, but after watching what they did in Flushing, I cant think of a peaceful way to ban it.

    BTW, IN MY OPINIONM, there was never real democracy in human history, the west democracy is something allowed WITHIN ITS SYSTEM.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1968

    Also, freedom of speech can do something good, but it also can do tons of harm to people and society.

    This is my last post on this thread.

  101. specul8r
    June 4th, 2008 at 06:05 | #101

    Lee,

    If you ever read “Zhuang Falun”, they have many reference to ‘attachment’. What does attachment means? Attachment is your thought constantly being remembered from the past and can’t let go of it. If they are cultivating and they know that ‘attachment’ is bad, why are they repeatedly trying to bring so called ‘justice’ against China? For your information, FLG is not the only qigong group got banned. Another group ‘Putigong’ is also widely followed in China were also banned in China but the master ‘JinBodhi’ came to Canada and still teaching ‘Putigong’ to people. They don’t try to bring ‘justice’ against China.

    http://putimeditation.org/

    Guess what, master ‘Jin Puti’ is real buddhist monk and his compassion show in this article:

    http://www.faithandmedia.org/articles/show/254

  102. specul8r
    June 4th, 2008 at 06:17 | #102

    Lee,

    Since you are very fond of Western style Democracy, think about this.

    If your country is trying to push “Western style Democracy” to another country to follow, can your country still be called “Democratic” based on what you have done, in other words, forcing another country to follow your ‘democracy’ is considered ‘democractic’? Isn’t that what you would call dictatorship? What if the people in that country won’t accept your “Democracy Style”, can you still tell them there’s no ‘Democracy’ in that country because they don’t accept your idea they way you wanted?

  103. lee
    June 4th, 2008 at 18:28 | #103

    S,

    Maybe it’s irrelevant, but your question reminded me used to picking out sections of the bible to my now 95 year Christian grandmother and tried to convince flaws and questionable remarks, and her response most of the time was:”just believe, don’t be afraid.” She’s been a Christian for 50 years btw.
    Let’s get to the point of your question, I don’t know whole a lot about the book (maybe I should start to read since you brought it up), but I feel it would be very wrong and not making sense that flg remain silence during the persecution. If you observe carefully, flg are bunch of regular civilians who has no weapons, their way of “fighting” is asking people know the truth about the persecution and withdraw from communist party. Usually they hand me a flyer or newspaper but never forced me to join them. Why are people so object to that? On the other hand, if Chinese communist (I always use communist and not China is because often it’s communist’s responsibility) not so fond of flg’s method, why can’t they just make peace? After all, it’s the communist started the whole thing. Honestly, I never imagined flg can last this long and I admire their resilience and bravery.
    On the topic of democracy, I don’t think the system is perfect. After many years in China and aboard, like many, I feel the reason America become so powerful is this country were built with a solid foundation, and the foundation is the 10 amendments and bill or rights. The freedom of belief, religion, press, owning a weapon, speech, right to trial, etc, these basic human rights is the difference between a communist country and America. Contrary, the condition in China is people don’t have these basic rights and the reason for that?
    On the topic of China and where is China’s future? Pretty much everyone knows that this country has 5000 years uninterrupted glorious history, the reason for that? Culture—that is the foundation for China! Dynasty comes and goes, but culture remains. Without Chinese culture, Chinese people will have no identity. Sadly, the communist tried to destroy the Chinese Culture. So if you really care about China, try to be a Chinese instead a communist.

  104. lee
    June 4th, 2008 at 18:53 | #104

    w,
    We see many people continue to practice after the crackdown outside of China, especially in Taiwan. That fact alone should conclude flg isn’t what the communist claimed to be. Therefore, it was a mistake they did what they did. Time always reveal the truth.
    History tells us, after once the great Roman Empire persecuted Christians, they vanished from earth. If you ever been to Rome, you know what I am talking about.
    Peace out.

  105. observer
    June 4th, 2008 at 19:05 | #105

    What Lee said is a typical FLG’s way of thinking: Christian was once supressed by authority, now Christian is popular and Roman Empire vanished; so, FLG will prospery and CCP will vanish too.

    I want to remind FLG: you may hate CCP, but the victims in China Earthquake are not CCP! Show your respect of the dead!

  106. specul8r
    June 5th, 2008 at 06:30 | #106

    lee,

    When flg member hand out papers and newsletters on the streets, they always stick it to your face and if you don’t accept it, they will say things like “come on… just watch them.” and things like that. I was in Japan in February and they were acting the same as those falun goners in New York 4 years ago in New York Central Park. I was vacationing there and I did not ask for the materials. If I want them, I will go over and pick them up. Why do they have to come to me and hand out the stuffs? It’s their selfish intent to just try to save their own kind of people in China and I am not surprised why China wants to lock those people up. They may not own weapons but they are disrupting normal business activities where they are protesting and it has become a nuisance. They are acting just like a ‘loser’ standing on the street day after day. And I am not surprise to learn that a Christian like you cannot understand of what flg is about in term of religion or cult and siding with flg.

    Do you believe America still have democracy? If you are labeled as ‘terrorist’, then you are not different as you are labeled as ‘dissident’ in China. You can be locked up without due process of law. Look at Guantanamo bay prison and you will find out.

    The freedom of belief, religion? Can David Koresh practice his cult in Waco Texas? I am saying that not because I agree with cult but the point to make is ‘democracy’ – ‘freedom of belief, religion’. U.S. Government still try to destroy Branch Davidian in order to save those kids in the compound. Is that different treatment from Chinese government and flg?

    How did the China destroy Chinese Culture? Remember, before Chinese Communist take over, there were a high rate of illiteracy in China. So, what did the communist do? They created simplified writing system so more people are able to read and write the chinese language. Is chinese language part of Chinese Culture? China continue to make those minority cultural dances without extinction while it become less and less support in Taiwan. No wonder when these flg cultural shows were “ooh and ahhh…” by the Taiwanese because they have never seen them in their lives. Who made it available?

  107. MM
    June 7th, 2008 at 13:36 | #107

    Did you try google Falun Gong Flushing now?

    see what you get.
    Maybe you should investigate some more. I am neutral in the case, but
    when “peaceful chinese residents of Flushing” spit at my camera just
    because I am taking pictures, somehow I’d rather sympathize with Falun
    Gong people, simply because of their civil behavior.

    Great publicity for China right before the Olympics. Just awesome!

  108. DJ
    June 7th, 2008 at 15:28 | #108

    MM,

    So I did a Google search as you suggested. And there are mostly Epoch Times reports as before. I did find a New York Times article dated May 30th, which sounds neutral but fails to interview any counter protesters or explain their anger at FLG followers’ alleged glee over the earthquake as a punishment for CCP.

    The most interesting part of the NYT article is the photo displayed. Please take a close look at the big sign at the right side. It contains the same 天滅中共 “Heaven is destroying the CCP” slogan I discussed in the post. The character 中,which is the “Chinese” part in Chinese Communist Party, shows a clear earthquake crack through the middle. So how does this help FLG’s argument?

    And which article contains the spitting incident? Or is that your personal experience? Could you give more details?

  109. June 13th, 2008 at 05:24 | #109

    RE BUXI question “You’ll have to explain this to me. Why is the FLG “fighting” the Communists at all? Why can’t individual FLG practictioners work on improving themselves, and be happy with it?

    What is the motivation behind trying to gain power in China and amongst the Chinese community? Is it revenge, or what? If you really care about “injustice”, there’s a lot of it in the world. Why do you care about injustice more in China than you do in Iraq, for example?

    I’m not asking the question to argue. I’m genuinely curious. I’ve never understood why FLG followers invest so much time in fighting the Communist Party.”

    My Answer: “The moment the Ccp illegally and immorally made 100 million FGP in China criminals for meditating and practising principles to improve themselves then that is when we all had to tell the Chinese and the world the truth about this persecution – in that the Ccp fabricated so many lies and staged so many hoaxes about Falun Gong to incite fear and hatred against FG.

    The CCP were and still are scared of us because we have a higher belief than the Ccp. We do not want power, we do not want to run the country we just want the persecution to stop. We have never done anything violent anywhere. But the Ccp has done something so inhuman the Heavens will not tolerate any Government or human persecuting people whose only wish is to cultivate into a good person.

    The Ccp has told so many lies and spent so much money and manpower on this persecution that they have no way out now to tell the truth to the Chinese and western worlds. Although the western worlds do believe the truth about Falun Gong being good.This is the issue. The Ccp would rather fall over this issue than do the right thing not only for FG but for the Chinese people who were beginning to enjoy a new renaissance of spiritual and freedom life after the cultural revolution ended.

    No human being can take away any other humans being right of belief in Gods Buddhas or Daos, that is why the Ccp can never eradicate us. This is what scares them the most. But they have dug themselves into a bulls horn and will not turn around and be truthful thereby really putting the Chinese peoples good future first.

  110. specul8r
    June 15th, 2008 at 07:01 | #110

    To Jana,

    When falun gone people secretly notified overnight and assembled themselves in Beijing in a short moment in 1999 had to be well organized event and it’s not a small mickey mouse gathering especially when falun gone told the world that there’s no organizaiton in flg. If that’s not a national security threat, then what is? The shutdown of falun gone is not because of meditation and practicing mixed buddhism thoughts interpreted by the leader of falun gone. Falun gone has secret group and method of communicating among themselves through email systems.

    If there is no organization and no membership, how can you say the number of falun gone members are higher than CCP? How do you know you don’t have double counted your falun gone members and exaggerated your membership?

    I had never believed the news about “Sujiatun Organ Harvesting” propaganda by falun gone and it was fabricated with so many lies and staged the recordings of conversations with hospitals. How can you trust a news from a wife of a brain surgeon who was doing corneal surgery? Give me a break when you make up a story. It’s full of deceit.

    Western worlds don’t know jack about buddhism and especially when people fall into believing the fabricated propaganda by falun gone. I was first sympathetic of falun gone at early years but eventually learning to know the group has become extreme and no longer practicing of what they have believed in. It’s a shame that they were doing the talk but not the walk.

    You still believe CCP is scare of you? It has been nine years and your leader said CCP will be destroyed soon. How soon? I am just wondering where is he hiding now? Where is the Chinese Nostradamus? He is even afraid to be seen in public and make anymore predictions that have never come true. Forget about his psychic abilities.

  111. June 16th, 2008 at 01:11 | #111

    re Specul8y

    Falun Gong is national threat? How? If the persecution stopped tomorrow we would pack up our signs and go back to just meditating and cultivating in the FA. You have misunderstood who the real culprit is here. Do we murder people? Do we torture people do we take away people rights of belief and expression to have relationship with their God? Are we violent? NO to all the above questions. Do I need to ask you if the Ccp does these things? I think everyone knows that they do.

    When a human being learns something is good and will help them become a better person and then a govt says it’s wrong do we not have a moral duty to correct this issue to help more people know that this is good so they too can benefit from such a good practice?

    When your heart has become selfless and you wish for all people to know this if it is their destiny then it requires no organised effort to get cultivators to turn up at the Gov’t buildings to peacefully talk with the Officials to try and correct this matter.We were invited to Zhongnanhai that day.Were we violent and rowdy? NO, we even picked up all the cigarette butts and garbage the policeman left on the street. 10,000 FG practitioners peaceful standing there wishing the very best for all of Chinese people so was there for jiang zemin to be scared of?

    Buddhists and Christians alike also did this to help all people know that their path is good. All good things that come into this world are persecuted by evil people. There is good and bad on this earth. Haven’t you noticed this? Which side do you stand on? The path of whats right or whats wrong?

  112. June 16th, 2008 at 01:12 | #112

    Falun Gong is national threat? How? If the persecution stopped tomorrow we would pack up our signs and go back to just meditating and cultivating in the FA. You have misunderstood who the real culprit is here. Do we murder people? Do we torture people do we take away people rights of belief and expression to have relationship with their God? Are we violent? NO to all the above questions. Do I need to ask you if the Ccp does these things? I think everyone knows that they do.

    When a human being learns something is good and will help them become a better person and then a govt says it’s wrong do we not have a moral duty to correct this issue to help more people know that this is good so they too can benefit from such a good practice? When your heart has become selfless and you wish for all people to know this if it is their destiny then it requires no organised effort to get cultivators to turn up at the Gov’t buildings to peacefully talk with the Officials to try and correct this matter. Were we violent and rowdy? NO, we even picked up all the cigarette butts and garbage the policeman left on the street. 10,000 FG practitioners peaceful standing there wishing the very best for all of Chinese people so was there for jiang zemin to be scared of?

    Buddhists and Christians alike also did this to help all people know that their path is good. All good things that come into this world are persecuted by evil people. There is good and bad on this earth. Haven’t you noticed this? Which side do you stand on? The path of whats right or whats wrong?

  113. specul8r
    June 16th, 2008 at 02:12 | #113

    Selfless… that’s one very correct words to use. However, look around what falun gone people are doing with the word ‘Selfless’. They were selfless only towards their fellow falun gone practioners. There are many people suffering and falun gone has no interested to helping those people nor will they try. Why? Isn’t that the selfish when you are measuing up against humanity? What’s so different of those people who are suffering in the world? They are not worthy to be saved? You can talk and twist the word your way but the walk is not showing.

    It’s not true that all good things that come into this world are persecuted by evil people. There are many ‘saints’ doing to relieve sufferings of the people around the world and they are doing regardless of what religion or political differences the suffering people belongs to. That’s the nature of ‘selfless’ means. With the true ‘selflessness’, then a true ‘compassion’ arise towards another human beings or animals or nature and not only restricted to your race or your religion. Learn to understand the meaning beyond the word instead of attaching on the word alone.

  114. June 16th, 2008 at 02:30 | #114

    If Falun Gong were only helping them then we would not continue to practice Falun Gong out in the open. But we are practising out in the open dignified and strong in our belief of right. This is what the Ccp cannot defeat. If we were selfish we could just keep practising our way in private with out any persecution right?

    But because we are selfless we wish to help people stop creating more bad karma against them and their future lives by themselves aiding this persecution started by the Ccp. We are laying down our lives in order to save people who persecute us. Many officials and prison guards now know that Falun Gong is good and they do not persecute it anymore. These people have been saved because they know its wrong to hurt good cultivators of a righteous way.

    All Falun Gong practitioners have to do is to get out of jail is denounce Falun Gong by signing a statement. This will get them out of prison immediately and then they could go back to practising in private. They choose not to because they know that to denounce Falun Gong in front of such evil doers would not help save these evil doers in the near future. Falun Gong are selfless as we are putting down our lives in order to save Chinese people from this great evil that has fallen upon them –the Ccp.

    Truly good people are always persecuted. Buddha and Jesus and Lao Tzu were all persecuted by evil people and rulers who were jealous of their following. If the way is not persecuted then it’s not righteous. This is a law of co existence of good and bad on this human realm.

  115. specul8r
    June 16th, 2008 at 12:46 | #115

    what you have described is the same rhetoric over and over again without any concern for those people’s livelihood being destroyed by falun gone deceitful practices. You have to stir-up those innocent people to cause problems against the government while your leader is out in U.S. having a good life. A great way to become Buddha while the disciples are suffering. There’s no sense of any compassion at all.

    Where did you get the information that Buddha was persecuted? Show me the scripture that said Buddha was persecuted.

    You dare to compare your leader with Buddha and Jesus status is definitely laughable. Jesus dared to meet face to face with his persecutor and knew his life would be in danger but his bodhisattva instinct made him courageous to meet face to face with the king Herod, while your leader is hiding in comfort. Good and bad are the same duality nature of the mind just like light and dark, wisdom and ignorance. A true Buddha will not be affected by the duality nature.

  116. June 16th, 2008 at 14:00 | #116

    You know not what you say. So i will stop here before you cause yourself any further harm.

  117. specul8r
    June 17th, 2008 at 01:18 | #117

    thank you and you take care of yourself and reach your enlightenment.

  118. specul8r
    June 22nd, 2008 at 20:10 | #118

    Jana, Make me try to understand if you can in human understandable language that you and I speak like … English, for example. This is the article from October 21, 2000: http://www.clearwisdom.net/eng/2000/nov/05/jingwen110500.html, As you know, Li Hongzhi is doing this undertaking in an ordinary human form, with a human body, using the lowest form of language among lives in the cosmos–the human language, this most simplistic human language of today–and using the lowest form of cultivation, qigong. This has left all beings throughout the cosmos oblivious. In order to evaluate and determine the xinxing position of each sentient being in the cosmos and reposition them, it was necessary that each one’s true xinxing level be revealed. So they haven’t been allowed to know the truth. No being in the entire cosmos knows the truth. They regard me as a cultivator, and so they dare to do what they have. Here’s what your master has to say about himself in his May 25 Fa Conference in Manhattan: http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2008/6/22/98383.html In this world, the ordeals that Master faces, as with the accompanying pressure, come in numbers greater than tens of thousands each day, yet no one has managed to make me waver, and that cannot be done. No one can alter what I want to do. No one can alter it, no matter what form the ordeals that I face take. The same holds true for your validating the Fa. But in your case, as you validate the Fa and save people, you are a cultivator still, and cultivators have human attachments or else they would be gods. And could a god do cultivation? Gods cannot cultivate. Only those with human bodies can cultivate, and only that can be called cultivation. So, precisely because you have this human body, you have the opportunity to cultivate and to improve. Here’s my question: Does your master has human body to cultivate? If he is cultivating, then he is not God because Li Hongzhi said “Gods cannot cultivate”. If he is already been the status of God, then he could not cultivate in this life. If he did not cultivate in this life, how did he learn from his mysterious unknown masters to reach the “Consummation” in this life and become God? Did he become God from previous life? How can an enlightened being like your master have pressure? Pressure develop in human form because the being has human attachments like (anger,frustration,resentment towards another entities) and cannot ‘let go’ of those human attachments. If you are an already enlightened being or person, then you should know what to do, don’t you? Your master have been preaching all those human attachments for many eons and still cannot let go and feel the pressure? If you are already enlightened, then those will not be called pressure, There is a word for that… DAILY TASKS.

  119. mm
    June 24th, 2008 at 12:59 | #119

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=36032046&id=1800056 spitting. 🙂

    I am not on FG’s side either. But this is a free country, If I want to run around with a billboard saying “Our president is a jack@$$” I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO SO and nobody has the right to come rip it out of my hands. Check the first amendment.

    and since the crowd attacking FG sympathizes so much with CCP doctrine and ways, maybe the local authorities should have gone CCP ways on them: armed soldiers and tanks. The problem would have been solved in seconds, wouldn’t it?

  120. June 25th, 2008 at 01:56 | #120

    HI again Specul8r, The only way I can help you understand is for you to read the book Zhuan Falun for yourself and take the teachings/Law (Fa) as your guide.

    These things that you have printed out are for cultivators who have cultivated in Falun Gong for many years. They will not make much sense to someone who does not understand the basics /fundamentals of the teachings. This is very high level and I would not dare to tell you what I think it means. You must figure that out for yourself by becoming a Falun Gong practitioner. Even reading the book with attachments will not work.

    It would be like me reading something that Buddha taught or said many years ago and trying to understand that cultivation system at a very high level when i am not cultivating in that system right?

    I hope you understand what I am saying as I am not trying to put you off. If I tried to read a book on physics I would have no chance to understand except maybe at an extremely shallow level. And if I did not agree with what was said I could turn it around to reflect my position thereby missing the ultimate or higher truth that the physicist would know.

    Thank you for asking as I can really see you wish to understand this phenomenon that is occurring in today’s dharma ending period. I can only suggest that you put aside what the Ccp has said about FG and read Zhuan Falun with no attachments and a sincere wish to cultivate to return to your origin.

  121. specul8r
    June 27th, 2008 at 05:17 | #121

    jana.

    Thanks but no thanks. I don’t need another form of cultivation where my cultivation is working for me. If you cannot explain of what you are cultivating to another user, then it doesn’t even make sense to you. How do you know your cultivation system is high level if you have nothing to compare with? You cannot be the best if there’s only one candidate and that’s not the best. I understand everything what you are saying and I know exactly how you get there. If you read a book on Physics and you don’t understand the book, you can consult another book written by another teacher that can explain better and you don’t need to attach to the only book and get stuck on the subject, if you know what I mean. There are some teachers that can explain better than some others. I am asking you to see if you know your material well enough and there’s no CCP involved in my question. I don’t believe in politics and I don’t care who is rich and who is poor but when there are people suffering, I am there to help. I will still help people even my help is reaching only 1% of my effort because that’s the right attitude to save sentient beings. If you are worrying about your efforts wasted 99% and stop aiding, then you are as ignorant as those not helping at all. I hope you understand my point and I pray for you!

  122. specul8r
    June 27th, 2008 at 05:38 | #122

    mm,

    Your reasoning is quite amazing and I am not surprise about your attitude; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Evolution do not take place overnight but Revolution can. Freedom of speech in U.S. did not come without sacrifices in the 60s. Your civil rights can be taken away anytime if you are labeled as “terrorist” and your phone conversation will be wiretapped by the phone company, your rights will be gone overnight in U.S. Do you think this will not happen in U.S.? Look at what Bush Administration is doing now. Every government in the world and the political system is the man-made creation to control one way or the other and there’s no such thing as total freedom. So, it’s useless to discuss about freedom. The true freedom you can have is go away to a place that no country has any rule over it.

  123. June 27th, 2008 at 06:54 | #123

    re Specul8r,
    I am glad that you cultivating in a system that works for your ideas and beliefs.. isn’t that what we all do? If you are a Christian and read the bible then you can read it many many times over and over again right?

    Each time someone reads it they have a deeper understanding so by that rationale you can see when you pull something off a site that is primarily only meant for Falun Gong practitioners (and the ccp spies too) then what hope would the non cultivators have in understanding at those high levels. What i understand is at my level so i would not dare to explain to you my understanding because 1. You are not cultivating in Falun Dafa and 2. You are hostile to Falun Gong. So it would not matter what i say except maybe to slander FG (And that will never happen.) then only would you agree right?

    True freedom is having no attachments in this world and cultivating in a genuine true cultivation system that can take you home.. Falun Dafa may not be for you but it is for me and 100 million more around the world and the Ccp is scared enough of us to persecute us.. ruthlessly. You know never in the whole wide world has any Falun Gong practitioner retaliated with violence or anger even against their persecutors.

    NO political power has any right to decide what religion any human can believe in especially since the Ccp destroyed all cultural relics and religions in the Cultural Revolution. Now thru public pressure and a deep desire for the Chines epople to beleive in Gods again they have installed sham temples and churches that are run by the ccp themselves. What evil is this? Does any God support that ? No the ccp have damaged themselves and they will fall . Because its Gods who give out the retribution not humans they can only accrue it themselves.

    1.3 billion epChinese people are suffering and I am glad that you have the heart to help them wake up from a nightmare that has been going on for 60 years. The poor Chinese have lost their abilty to know right from wrong becasue they have been ruled with terror violence and imorality for 60 years.

    Falun Gong grew so quickly in China from 1992-99. Becasue it directly appealed to their ancient culture
    and sense of morality and the Dao. Only when Ccp saw it was too big they felt threatened and jealous and they could no longer control people minds thru fear they illegally and imorally cast 100 million Chinese people into being criminals and hated by the rest of the nation because of intense Ccp propoganda campaigns designed to incite hatred and fear…the rest is history and will be a sad demise for the Chinese people if they dont wake up to it.

  124. specul8r
    June 30th, 2008 at 17:23 | #124

    jana.

    If you cannot explain and your leader cannot make it straight, it’s just a spin. Even Gautama Buddha (Sakyamuni) told his disciples “Don’t take my ‘word’ as ‘TRUTH’ because I am your ‘teacher’; you will have to ‘test’ my ‘word’ and experience that ‘TRUTH’ yourself with your ‘subtle mind’; then it becomes ‘TRUTH’ to ‘you’.” I guess you haven’t tested that is the ‘TRUTH’ to you yet.

    I don’t know how you can get the figure of 100 millions if there’s no membership to keep track of your practioners. You can move people from one location to another when there is mass gathering to show strength but it still doesn’t proof that those are the actual number of members. You may brag as much as you want and you may even say 200… 300… millions but still no one is going to believe Falun Gong. The credibility is lost.

    For your information, what you are describing is not just limited to people in China and it’s all happening in the societies in the world. You will not know because you are so attached and focused in China only and think only happening in China. All these are created by the ‘POWER’ and ‘GREED’. Not every CCP members are bad person. Just because there are a few people who infiltrated up to the middle and upper echelon and abuse the power doesn’t mean the organization itself is bad. It happens all the time in all over the world. You can find exact same thing happening in Taiwan, U.S. corporations, Philippine, Myanmar, Indonesia, African countries, South American countries etc.in every part of societies.

    You claim that Falun Gong teaches non-attachment. What do you understand about ‘attachment’ besides the word? Have you or your Falun Gong group ever try to understand beyond the word ‘attachment’? What does it involve for a human to have ‘attachment’? Doesn’t it means your human ‘mind’ is constantly thinking about something and cannot let go? That’s what exactly what Falun Gong group is doing and your ‘mind’ is constantly trying to proof that Falun Gong is strong and will not bow down to CCP. Isn’t that the ‘Pride’? Where is your ‘Xin Xing’? What are you cultivating for? Don’t tell me I don’t understand and I don’t have the high level ”what so ever’ (or in other words, ‘spin’) you guys have. This is the most fundamental part of cultivation in most of the spiritual system and falun gong has proof that It’s all just talk but no action. You can copy from other religions, you can read and you can talk but if you don’t practice, you won’t get enlightened; it’s the individual enlightenment and not a group enlightenment. You are born to this world alone and you die alone; you are not born together and die together (your innate spirit) and it’s even true for twins. Believe me… what I am saying is not slandering. If you take it otherwise, I don’t blame you. People do make mistakes and move on with what you learn from your mistakes. Stop losing credibility among Chinese people and the spiritual world.

  125. specul8r
    June 30th, 2008 at 17:39 | #125

    Jana,

    “NO political power has any right to decide what religion any human can believe in especially since…”

    Just to name a few, have you heard of David Korash and Branch Davidian in Waco, Texas? What about Warren Jeffs and Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? What about Shoko Asahara and Aum Shinrikyo in Tokyo, Japan?

  126. July 1st, 2008 at 00:39 | #126

    Did those groups hurt people in the name of their so called religion? If so then then not only have they broken the law of the land but also heavens law.

    Falun Gong has never hurt anyone . There have been no reports ever all around the world in 80 countries of FAlun Gong practitioners hurting others or themsleves, or breaking the law of the land or heavens law.

    But the Ccp has murdered 80 million Chinese people in the last 60 years and continues to day to murder good people.Falun Gong practitioners are the very best of humnaity. This persecution is against humanity, kindness and conscience all over the world. The Ccp is persecuting FAlun Gong precisely because we are good honest virtuous people and they are not. This is a battle of Good versus evil…this is the time that Buddha said would be the “end of law or the the end of the dharma” when no one would know the difference between right and wrong.Falun Gong knows the difference and thats why we are being persecuted
    Even Jesus talks about this time..

  127. July 1st, 2008 at 01:54 | #127

    Jana, putting aside the sins of the CCP, I have read a bit of the Falun Dafa. This is not a good philosophy. Intellectually, it is on par with any other fundamentalisms out there. But worse, it advocates an understanding of humanity that is evil. Epidemics are caused karma? Practicing FLG will cure illnesses? “We think that his suffering is eliminating karma” – would FLG deny palliative care? The list can go on and on but my favorite is Li Hongzhi teaching about races and mixed children.

    The wrongs of the CCP doesn’t make Falun Dafa right.

  128. specul8r
    July 1st, 2008 at 06:05 | #128

    Jana,

    How much do you really know about Buddhism? I see you are quoting Buddhism and I suppose you learn about the Buddhism from your master’s book Zhuan Falun because your master forbid you to read any other books out there. Ask youself this question: Where did Li Hongzhi learn his Buddhism while he was in China as you were saying CCP destroyed all those religious texts? How can he learn from authentic buddhism scriptures? Even monks have to learn many years to understand and decode the meaning in Buddhism because many of those Buddhist scriptures are written in Sanskrit words that have dual meaning. I am wondering how can a moderatedly educated Li Hongzhi can acquire and understand Buddhism in a short period of time and not just understand but he has acquired more power than Sakyamuni Buddha.

    Let’s talk about Falun Gong. Here’s what Dr. Feng Lili said (source: http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/index.php?news=154):

    Typical qigong practices increase and purify qi. Falun Dafa, meanwhile, works on a different type of energy called gong, or “cultivation energy.” Qi is ubiquitous and is found in all living things. People all have qi, but it inevitably diminishes with aging. Gong, in contrast, is developed only in the bodies of those who practice xinxing cultivation. The higher one’s xinxing, the greater the quantity and higher the density of one’s gong.

    Practitioners who cultivate their xinxing are actually changing the energy and substances in the body. Over time, as xinxing is cultivated, gong continues to increase regardless of chronological age. Gong is the energy that exerts powerful anti-aging effects and repairs the dysfunction of cells and tissues in the body. To clarify: It is not the five exercises, but the cultivation of xinxing that increases and refines gong. Only xinxing cultivation can achieve the state of “a clean heart and few desires.”

    On June 22, 2006, Falun Gong core member Feng Lili died of pancreas cancer in Houston, US. Feng had been giving lectures everywhere, and advocating that, “Falun Gong had magic power in keeping people fit and strong”. She was claimed to be “a leading figure of Falun Gong in the medical community”.

    In March 2006, Falun Gong core member Li Guodong died of liver cancer in New York.

    As Falun Gong’s “Chief Scientist” Feng Lili had been promoting “Fa” all over the world, racking her brains to “make scientific interpretation” for Li Hongzhi’s heretical fallacies. She died of pancreas cancer while preaching “Dafa can cure all illness” everywhere. Li Guodong, an anchorman with New Tang Dynasty Television, had been working his heart out to show his loyalty to Li Hongzhi by mongering numerous rumors. He finally died of liver cancer.

    Li Shulin, 53-year-old, suffered from outburst of cerebral thrombosis at a Falun Gong training course held by Li Hongzhi in August, 1994. According to Li Hongzhi’s explanation, it was a normal reaction as Li Shulin was practicing higher-level Falun Gong and there was no need to take medicines or injection. A couple of days later, Li died.

    This is one but not the first and only case of death of Falun Gong practitioners who died at Li Hongzhi’s training courses.

    Did the spin from Li Hongzhi get out of control? Judge for yourself.

  129. July 1st, 2008 at 10:46 | #129

    Buddhism is different from the Buddha’s FA or Buddha’s Law. Buddhism is one cultivation school in the Buddha’s Law. Do you understand the difference? Falun Dafa is also another cultivation school in the Buddha’s law or FA. There are 83,000 cultivation schools in the Buddha’s law. Buddhism is but one. I do not quote Buddhism yet it is widely known that the Buddha of 2500 years ago said this time we are in now is the end of the dharma ending time. He also said when asked by his monks “Then who will spread the Dharma and who should we seek out in this Dharma ending time? His reply was “Look for the man who turns the law wheel.”
    Buddha did not come back nor did Jesus.. that would just be too easy right? One must enlighten in delusion..Believing is seeing… not the other way around..

    Cultivation is very hard and is one of constantly giving up attachments. There is no promise of success from the Master unless one gives up all attachments and adheres to the principles of that school. Cultivation is not about healing illness which is at a very superficial level of understanding. Improving ones mind and heart nature is what is fundamental to success in a genuine cultivation. The Master can only teach you the principles but then it is up to the disciples to do the hard work. If you yourself cultivate then you should know this. Seeking to heal illness is not the aim of or the success of any genuine cultivation practice.

    If someone falls ill or dies while practising cultivation them it must have been because there were issues/attachments they were not paying attention to. And they fell to an everyday level in which all human being must die. Xinxing is the way to increase your Gong but it is not done to heal ones illnesses. If you have an attachment to healing your illness it will not work at all. To cultivate is a noble and arduous path to attain your right fruit status.

    Not everyone will succeed in cultivation and I can tell you know that no genuine Falun Dafa disciple would advocate practising Falun Gong to heal illness nor would they boast about it openly. I think that many such propaganda articles were organised from the Ccp to discredit/defame FG,. It was all part of their strategy.

    I did not practise FG to heal my illnesses (which we all have) but I can tell you my illnesses are healed. There is a fundamental difference in what I am saying and what you are reporting from some dubious sources of Ccp propaganda .Only when I improved my xinxing (heart and mind moral nature) did my illnesses go. I had no attachments to healing illness ; my heart was devoted to attaining the right fruit and helping to save all sentient beings in this dharma ending period.

    No spin here just a truthful path of return.

  130. specul8r
    July 1st, 2008 at 21:42 | #130

    Jana,

    There you go. When you discuss about Buddhism, you turn into Buddha Fa. When you discuss about Qi Gong, then you turn into Buddhism. “THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BUDDHA FA”. There is only Dharma and Tantra/Kundalini meditation in Ancient India. There is no Buddhism either. Buddhism is created after Gautama (Sakyamuni) reached enlightenment which is called “Buddhi” state and who reached “Buddhi” state is called “Buddha” or “Enlightened One”. After Sakyamuni reached what is enlightened means, he started to teach Dharma for 40 years and there were still no Buddhist religion. They were just monks who used to worship Vishnu and Shiva Hindu God. What Sakyamuni taught those monks are that should not find God that doesn’t exist outside but looks inward to find “Buddha Nature” through meditation instead. Only then, they will reach “Buddhi” enlightened state. Only after Sakyamuni passed away, all those monks get together and wanted to be differentiated themselves from Hindu religion and since they are the followers of Sakyamuni Buddha, they called themselves “Buddhist”. Still, what they were transmitting was Dharma and not Buddha Fa. I have read China Falun Gong and I am very familiar with what is said. Only you are ignorant and don’t know anything about religion and spiritual life other than your Falun Gong.

    Have you heard of Kaliyuga? Is that what you called “Dharma ending time”? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga). Is that “Dharma ending time” predicted in Buddhism or it’s been there long before Buddhism started? I am pretty sure you haven’t even aware about what is Kali Yuga means. That’s why you need to look at other teacher’s books and stop wasting your time and life on useless middle school course subjects like “Zhuan Falun” and start reading College level courses. But it’s your life and you can do what you want with your life.

    How much did you know about Jesus? What happen after Jesus was 13 years and before he reached 30. Have you find out where he had been, what had he been cultivating and doing what? Just like “Buddhism”, there was no “Christian” before Jesus Christ. There were only “Essene”. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes). The rest is history and if you are interested, you should research on your own. Don’t debate something you don’t know and you better do some research before you argue and of course you cannot argue with middle school level book knowledge. Of course, Li Hongzhi doesn’t want you to learn from other sources and he is afraid that he has been plagiarizing other people’s ideas and combined them as his own.

    The ancient sages of India knew about attachments and karma are part of your personal conscious level and attachments affect your conscious level which in turn affect your subconscious level and which is part of your karma. Karma doesn’t cause a person to get sick but what Karma is causing you to repeatedly continue to do things the way you do like a habit without knowing the ill-effects (fruit of Karma) that bring you down. This ill-effects is not the illness like your “Zhuang Falun” said. What your Zhuang Falun teaches the other way; master’s Fa body can protect the practioners from illnesses and Karma is the cause of illnesses. It’s far from the truth. Karma do not cause illnesses; your unhealthy subconsciousness buoyed to conscious level causes your mind to be disturbed which in turn stimulate your hypothalamus to affect your autonomic nervous system and you have problems with over stimulation of hormones in your body like overworked engines. When engine overworked, then the engine breaks down and the same in human beings.

    It’s not seeking to cure illness is the issue. Your spiritual body is using the body to do cultivation and when the body is fragile, then your cultivation is hindered. Only when you nourished your body and your body is healthy, then you can cultivate your spiritual body. That’s exactly how Sakyamuni Buddha found out before reaching his enlightenment while he was meditating near the riverbank. His body was so weak because he had been living ascetic way to cultivate his mind but he couldn’t focus. Then, one day, he ate the rice and milk offered to him from a village girl “Sujata” nourished his body and his mind was alert and could continue to cultivate mindfulness and taught his disciples to practice “Middle Way”. I have never mentioned that you cultivate for your body.

    Human being must die is not arguable. We all Die and that’s the truth and that’s why it’s very precious to have a human body. What is not the truth is that when you practice “Falun Gong”, it can cure all illnesses and reverse them. When you spin so much false and the reality is not, then you have problems.

    Can you cut your attachment from CCP? Everything you do must be reminded by CCP? How can you cultivate without CCP? Are you always in fear of CCP? In Science, there is “Precision” and “Accuracy” for Quality Assurance/Quality Control. When you are precise with your experiments all the time doesn’t mean you are “Accurate”. You need to be both “Accurate” and “Precise”. What you were doing is “Precise” but it’s not “Accurate”.

    This is the last thing I am writing and you are not ready to discuss any further. Good Luck with your path to enlightenment.

  131. July 2nd, 2008 at 03:52 | #131

    Specul8r,

    No one believed in Jesus at his time except the 12 disciples and then over quite a few years of him teaching maybe 300 people at the most. Only after he had been crucified and rose from the dead did the people begin to believe, same with Buddhism, He fought ideological battles with the Brahmanism religion all his life. He also had bigger following after he died. That simply shows how unenlightened humankind is if they cannot believe before they see and only believe after they see.This shows very poor enlightment quality .

    Sorry to tell you this but Buddhism is in Chaos now too- same with Christianity. The law from those religions no longer works does it? Chaos and imorality is everywhere in the Temples and Churches. The Buddha did not write down the scriptures and many years later they were written down by lesser monks who only could write what they understood.Buddha only left the precepts as the guide nothiong more . All the scriptures were written by lesser humans.

    We can respect other teachings we just cannot cultivate in more than one teaching at a time until we enlighten in that school. You have mixed way too many teachings together so which Master or Buddha will save you?

    I don’t have any attachment to the Ccp . You misunderstand .This persecution needs to stop by every person on the planet making a conscience decision that this is wrong and only by peacefully turning our backs on this great evil in the world will that happen. This is the dharma ending time and the man that turns the law wheel or dharma wheel is here. Enlighten to it . Do not slander Falun Dafa, even your teacher
    ( if you have one) would turn his back on you for doing so .

  132. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 04:08 | #132

    Jennifer, do you really believe “tortured and murdered for absolutely no good reason what so ever”? How about talk about it to a judge.

  133. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 04:10 | #133

    Lee , do you really believe?
    “persecution of innocent people”
    “communist offers no human rights in China and that’s a fact! ”
    “the only group dare to stand up to the communist.”
    “there are some pro communist Chinese people here in the states.”

    Let me answer the last question. If they really “pro communist”, then they should wave the CCP flag, instead of China flag.

  134. July 2nd, 2008 at 04:17 | #134

    The blood red flag that you all swore alliegence to is the Chinese flag.

    There is lso no rule of Law in China only Rule of Man- no point in talking to any judge in China. Read Lawyer Gao’s book “A China more Just”. He is Christian not Falun Gong.
    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/07/18/new-book-a-china-more-just-story-of-lawyer-gao-zhisheng/

  135. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 04:27 | #135

    There’s nothing wrong practicing Falun gong, which seems very similar to Qi gong, or any other gong originated in the East. Over the months or years of practice, not much difference than the rigorous physical exercise, people will gain mental and physical strength. Few from the West, a lot from the East, fall in this category.

    However, Falun (Law wheel – highly religious term in the East) gong brings religion to practice. In it’s worst case, the Falun DaFa (Law wheel Grand law – another highly religious term in the East that governs the universe including any other religion such Christian and Catholics), involves heavily mind manipulation, revere their man made God Li Hongzi. It’s members are willing to lie for its agenda. They become cult.

    As the review by a Christian put it, Falun gong is a religion of lie. The above mentioned is actually the bait and switch tactics to bring in new converts. That tactics is illegal in the East and the West. Google “Falun bait and switch” for more information.

    The oldest and largest Humanist organization, American Humanist Association rejected to endorse Falun gong, citing “intolerant positions”, “irrational and unfounded claims”, “supernatural powers”, which are “incompatible with our dedication to reason and science”. See the open letter to Falun gong at http://www.americanhumanist.org/press/falungong.php

    To those who may not familiar with Falun gong, you can find a wealth of information at Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey http://www.rickross.com/groups/falun.html. The institution is expert on cult studies.

    Please do get yourself familiar with “How To Detect Bias In News Media” (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=121)

    Thanks for your attention.

  136. July 2nd, 2008 at 04:45 | #136

    Just so you know because its obvious you dont Rick Ross cult buster believes that Christianity is a cult. Hes an atheist and believes in nothing which ranks him as being a very superstious simpleton with an axe to grind… Now there is a dangerous man to all of society.

  137. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 04:46 | #137

    jana11@bigpond.net.au

    CCP member swore allegiance to CCP flag
    Chinese swore allegiance to Chinese flag
    The CCP flag if bloody, but accuse “you all swore alliegence to is the Chinese flag” is unfounded.
    I know that China is far from perfect, but I doubt “lso no rule of Law in China only Rule of Man”.
    If “no point in talking to any judge in China” then talk to any judge in Australia.

  138. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 04:49 | #138

    Sorry. what I mean is “The CCP flag is bloody”

  139. July 2nd, 2008 at 04:55 | #139

    If you were born in China and went to primary school in China then you all swore alligence to the CCP blood flag.
    Thats why we say quit the Ccp otherwise when heavens destroy it they will take you down with it.

    Yes some judges in Australia have been sucessfully agreeing to arrest any CCP offical who comes to Australia who has been verified to have been comitting persecution and murder of FAlun Gong.In other words they can no longer hide behind their diplomatic immunity.. 4 of the politburro officials can no longer come to Australia without being arrested to face crimes agansit humanity charges…Can’t do that in communist led China now can you?

  140. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 05:19 | #140

    I was born in China, and went to primary/middle/high school, and college, in China, and I, like millions of other Chinese, did swore allegiance to Chinese flag, but never swore allegiance to CCP flag, which only happens when people join the CCP.

    When you say “tortured and murdered for absolutely no good reason what so ever”, do you really mean “has been verified to have been comitting persecution and murder”?

    “they can no longer hide behind their diplomatic immunity”. wow, the new world order has just began under the leadership of Hongzhi Li.

    Criminals will be persecuted in China. But I doubt they can do anything toward diplomats, except expel them.

    BTW, what exactly do you mean “heavens destroy it they will take you down with it”?

  141. July 2nd, 2008 at 05:24 | #141

    PLease dont be rude about Falun Gong or Li Hongzhi.

    I did not say for no good reason you did.

    The Chinese flag is the Ccp Flag.
    read this article.

    https://www.minghui.org/mh/articles/2006/8/5/134826p.html

    道人之语蕴天机 七十年后终解迷

    (老人口述,济南大法弟子整理)
    【明慧网2006年8月5日】我今年八十一岁,这里讲的是我亲身经历的一桩往事。
    我娘家住在济南市南部山区。七十年前我很小的时候,就记着家里住着一位修行的道人。此人四十开外,与我父亲年岁相仿。人很善良,他对同龄的人称呼总是小一辈,他称我父母为小爷爷、小奶奶,称我为小姑姑。
    农忙时,他就帮我家中干些活,闲时就外出行医、化斋,晚上回来也不点灯,在屋内不知做些什么事情。经常说一些古怪离奇的话,我们都听不懂是什么意思,父亲常说他是磨道人(方言,一般指行为古怪)。
    在我十二岁那年,记得最深的几件事情:有一天是晴空万里,他却不让我家人外出,但不说为啥。快到中午的时候天气大变,即刻狂风四起,飞沙走石,大树拔起折断,房子揭盖,对面伸手不见五指。大约一个小时左右,天才慢慢放亮,出来太阳。道人说:如果正面碰上这风头,人就会生场大病和扒几层皮,严重的甚至连命也难保。
    这一年大旱,入伏的头三天才下雨,村里人都赶快抢种,道人却不让我们家种,他说:咱家播种用的东西先借别人使用,他们用完后,咱们再用也不迟。原来是三天后,又下了一场更大的雨,种上的也白种了,全让雨给冲坏了。大雨过后,地里很湿,他却催着赶快种,再不能耽误,否则种的庄稼就不好出苗了。
    还有一次我家叔叔结婚,道人跟我爷爷商量:家里大喜的日子,能不能叫我师父也来喝个喜酒?爷爷说:你来家这么多年了,也未见过你师父,快让他来吧!
    到了结婚的那天,直到客人都走了,家里人也没见到他的师父。爷爷问他:你怎么没把你的师父请来?他说:早来了,只不过人看不见他。
    过了几年,道人对我父母说:我要走了,我不能在这里修行了,家里如果有事需要我帮忙的时候,可点上一根香叫我的名字。家里人似信非信。
    又过了一年,父亲背后长了个恶疮,花了很多钱也治不好,这才想起了道人,想起了他说的话:“点一根香叫我的名字,我就到……”但他毕竟是个人,能有这么灵验吗?家里人也顾不得这么多了,试试吧。
    晚上奶奶拿了一把香在院子里点上后,叫着道人的名字快来。当时是寒冷的冬天,天还没亮的时候听见有人敲门,开门后一看是道人,只见他满头大汗,棉衣都被汗浸透了。第一句话就问家里出了什么大事?母亲把父亲的病情说了。他看了看父亲的恶疮后说没事,好治。然后把恶疮挖掉,上了药。第二天,父亲就能下床了。
    吃饭的时候他对我父母说,以后你们再不能给我打信了(就是烧香),我可承担不起一把香这样的礼仪。他临走时父亲问他什么时候再回来看我们?道人说:“等山上有了楼、井里水淌到家、灯头朝了下、山剩半边、人死后没人埋的时候,我再回来看你们。那时大变样,恐怕小叔叔和小姑姑能不能见着面还很难说。”父母听完后,脸色都变了,说人死没人埋,这不是场人间大灾难吗?就没有解此难的办法吗?经父母的多次追问后,道人才说:“脸上有印看不见,抹去印记度劫难。”全家都深深记下这些话来,就是难解其中的意思。
    七十年后的现在,他说的前四句话都一一实现了,现在山上山下都有楼房,井里的水也淌到了家(因以前都是到水湾里,井里去挑水喝),灯头朝了下是指的电灯,以前都是用的煤油灯,所以灯头是朝上的。因为我们这里是山区,但过度开采,没有完整的,多数是半边。只有“人死后没人埋”这句还没应验。可我也始终没有解开“度劫难”那两句话,还是迷。我经常给孩子们说这件事,他们都不信,还不让我说这些话,说到时候人家怎么办咱们就怎么办。
    不久前有一天早上开门时,门缝里夹着一张单子,我就让孩子们念给我听听上面写的是什么。当我听到“大纪元”三个字时,我忽然想起了道人原先常说大纪元是研究天象变化的,他预先就能知道刮风下雨和天灾人祸。当念到上面写着:“老天要灭共产党,凡是举手入过党、团、少先队及作恶多端的人,脸上都带有印记,眼前面临一场大灾大难,要想度过这一场大劫难,可用小名、别名、化名,向大纪元声明退出即可,就能抹去脸上的‘兽’字印记,永保平安。”
    我又想起了道人说“脸上有印看不见,抹去印记度劫难”的话来。这一张法轮功真相的单子一下子给我解开了七十多年解不开的“迷”,怪不得法轮功的传单让大家退党、团、队,原来是在救人,让大家保平安啊!
    我们全家明白后,都一一照办退出了党、团、队。我今天也为了救人,才叫孩子们写出这桩事来。别错过时机,当灾难真的到来,后悔晚矣!不要拿自己的生命开玩笑啊!
    七十年前的道士预见了现在的人和事。我已经是八十多岁的老人了,如今也是子孙满堂。也希望各位父老乡亲们的亲朋好友都能平安无事,明白宁可信其有,不可信其无的老话。

    (English Translation: http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/8/18/76997p.html)
    成文:2006年08月04日 发稿:2006年08月05日 更新:2006年08月05日 12:11:31

  142. July 2nd, 2008 at 05:37 | #142

    re Mutant Jedi,

    Oh so there is no evil in humanities conscience today? Of course illnesses are karma. We were made in the image of Gods whose bodies are perfect right? We have sickness aging and death we also fear cold heat hunger pain illness, emotional stuff…if that isn’t karma what is??

    Honestly some people cannot think rationally at all. Why on earth would the Ccp persecute us if we were not good people? Evil does not persecute evil they stick together and help each other.

  143. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 05:57 | #143

    Nothing rude about Falun gong and Hongzi Li, expect facts. If Australian arrests diplomats from China, I don’t know what will happen then. It must be the new order of the world. Don’t you agree?

    “The Chinese flag is the Ccp Flag.” That’s something new. However, the URL you provided doesn’t work:
    http://www.minghui.org uses an invalid security certificate.
    The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is unknown.
    The certificate expired on 8/12/2005 11:34 PM.
    (Error code: sec_error_unknown_issuer)
    Looks like my Firefox doesn’t like “invalid security certificate”

    Also re “The Chinese flag is the Ccp Flag.” Does that make everybody (born in China, with elementary education) a CCP?

    I don’t quite get the lengthy story. Let me know if I’m wrong. Basically, the “destroy” seems pretty much the same as “不要拿自己的生命开玩笑”

  144. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 06:05 | #144

    Sorry for discriminating folks who can’t read Chinese. The Chinese characters “不要拿自己的生命开玩笑” in my previous post means “no kidding about my death”

  145. July 2nd, 2008 at 06:09 | #145

    Hey call it what you like but a new world with conscience is a good start.. heres a hypothetical question for you … if Hitlers face was still in the centre of Berlin where the Olympics were being held in 2008 would anyone go?

    Answer NO…. The world at large dont know much about CCP .So i will expose them for their terror on the poor Chinese people so they can wake up see what they are doing to the peaceful and kind Falun Gong. Is this not the most compassioante thing to do?

    I’ll print it in English then for those who cannot read Chinese.
    After Seventy Years, A Taoist’s Riddle Becomes Clear

    By a Falun Dafa practitioner from Jinan City, based on a narration from an elder

    (Clearwisdom.net) I am an 81-year-old woman and I’d like to share some personal experience that happened in my past.

    My parents lived in the mountainous region south of Ji’nan City. Seventy years ago when I was still a young girl, there was a Taoist cultivator living with us. He was very kind and was my father’s age, around 40 years old. Out of respect, he usually addressed others as if they were his elders. For example, he called my parents little grandpa and little grandma, and me little aunt.

    He would help us out during busy farming seasons; other times, he wandered around as a doctor. When he came home, he wouldn’t light the lamp and we didn’t know what he was doing in the dark. He often said some strange words we didn’t understand. Father always said he was a strange person.

    Several events deeply impressed me when I was twelve years old. It was a fine day with a clear sky, but the Taoist wouldn’t let us to go out and didn’t want to tell us the reason. At noontime, the weather suddenly changed. Within a short time, there was strong wind and sandstorm. Large trees were uprooted and the roofs of houses were lifted off. It became pitch-dark. After about an hour, light started to reappear. The cultivator told us: “If one faces directly into the wind, they will get sick and layers of their skin will peel off. In the most serious case, people will die.”

    One year, there was a drought. After it rained for three days, villagers rushed to plant the seedlings, but the cultivator told us to wait. He said, “Let’s lend our planting equipment to others. It won’t be too late for us to plant ours when they finish planting. Three days later, there was another big rain and washed away everything people had planted. The field became soaking wet after the rain. He then urged us to plant without any delay, telling us that otherwise the crop would not come out well.

    When my uncle got married, the cultivator asked my grandfather whether he could invite his teacher to have a drink. Grandfather told him: “You have been with us for so many years and we have never met your teacher. Let’s invite him over.”

    After all the guests had left on the wedding day, we still didn’t see his teacher. Grandfather asked him: “Why didn’t you invite your teacher?” He answered: “He had come. It is because you can’t see him.”

    A few years later, he said to my parents, “I am leaving now, because I can’t cultivate here any more. If there is anything else that needs my help, just burn incense and call my name.” Our family all thought this was odd.

    A year later, my father had a malignant skin ulcer on his back. We spent a lot of money and still couldn’t cure it. We then remembered what the cultivator told us: “Light incense and call my name, then I will come.” He was a capable person after all, but could it be believable? Our family had no choice and we tried it.

    During that night, grandma lit a bundle of incense and called out the cultivator’s name. It was a cold winter and before daybreak, we heard knocks on the door. When we opened the door, the cultivator stood there with perspiration all over. Even his cotton-padded clothes were soaked through with sweat. His first words were asking what had happened. Mother told him about father’s illness. After examining the skin ulcer, he said it was nothing serious and it was easy to cure. He carved out the skin ulcer and applied some medicine. Father was able to get up the next day.

    During mealtime, he told my parents that they were not to burn the incense next time and that he couldn’t shoulder this kind of respect.

    Father asked him when he would come back to see us. The cultivator said, “When there are buildings on the mountain, water from the well flowing in the homes, the heads of the lamps facing down, half of the mountain gone, and dead people unburied, then I will return to see you. If such big changes happen, I was afraid that even little uncle and little aunt might not get to see what happens.” Upon hearing these, father was scared and said that if dead people don’t get buried, isn’t it a catastrophe? Is there any way to divert the disaster? After my parents kept asking him, he then said, “People cannot see the beast’s mark on their faces. One can only erase the mark to escape the disaster.” All of us remember these words, but no one understood what they meant.

    Today, after seventy years have passed, his first four sentences have materialized. We now have buildings in the mountain areas; have water connected to homes (people used to go to the stream or well to get water); the electric lamps are facing downward; and our mountains all have been mined so heavily that only half the mountain remains. Only the “dead people don’t get buried” hasn’t happened. And I still can’t understand the meaning of “escaping the disaster.” I always tell my children this story, but none of them believe it. They don’t even want me to repeat it anymore. They said that we’d do whatever others do.

    One morning not too long ago, I opened the door and saw a pamphlet in the door crack. I asked my children to read it to me. When I heard the Epoch Times, I suddenly remembered that the cultivator had told us that something by that name could foretell celestial phenomena. It read, “When Heaven wants to annihilate the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), all the people who had declared to join the party, the Youth League and the Young Pioneers, and those who had done all kinds of evil, have a mark on their faces. To avoid the disaster, one can use a nickname or an alias to declare a withdrawal from the CCP and its associations to eliminate the beast’s mark on their faces and be saved.”

    I then remembered what the cultivator said: “The mark on the face is not visible. One needs to erase the mark to avoid the calamity.” This pamphlet solved the mystery which had existed in my mind for seventy some years. It’s no wonder that the pamphlet tells people to make a withdrawal from the CCP in order to be saved.

    Our whole family understood it and declared to quit the CCP and its organizations. To save people, I thus asked my children to write this story down. Don’t miss this opportunity. When the disaster comes, it will be too late to repent.

    I am an eighty-some years old elder now and remembered that the cultivator had predicted the current events seventy years ago. I just hope that everyone will not put their lives at risk by not withdrawing from the CCP.

    Posting date: 8/18/2006

  146. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 06:11 | #146

    Well said Mutant Jedi.

  147. KungFuPanda
    July 2nd, 2008 at 06:50 | #147

    I will not call it “a good start of world order” as you stated, instead, I will call it the end of world peace. Diplomats are protected by international law, which Australia has agreed.

    “a hypothetical question for you … if Hitlers face was still in the centre of Berlin where the Olympics were being held in 2008 would anyone go?” Fresh from wikipedia, “A total of 49 nations attended the Berlin Olympics, up from 37 in 1932”, which was held “in Los Angeles, California, United States”. So the answer is yes. If history holds true, somebody will go.

    “The world at large dont know much about CCP.” Can’t agree. Actually, communism is the ill child of the West where English/French is the dominant language, Christian is the dominant religion.

    ” Is this not the most compassioante thing to do?” Yes, but don’t lie, don’t interrupt donations efforts for the earthquake victims, especially don’t mess up with moan observance for the earthquake victims. (by no mean this implies you)

    I haven’t get any answer regarding what exactly do you mean “heavens destroy it they will take you down with it”? Please use plain English or Chinese.

  148. specul8r
    July 2nd, 2008 at 07:20 | #148

    Jana wrote:

    “No one believed in Jesus at his time except the 12 disciples and then over quite a few years of him teaching maybe 300 people at the most. Only after he had been crucified and rose from the dead did the people begin to believe, same with Buddhism, He fought ideological battles with the Brahmanism religion all his life. He also had bigger following after he died. That simply shows how unenlightened humankind is if they cannot believe before they see and only believe after they see.This shows very poor enlightment quality .”

    Apparently, your limited knowledge is what you see is what you believe. “Have you heard of Jesus Conspiracy – Turin Shroud & the Truth about the resurrection?” Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead; he was rescued and resuscitated by the intimate members of the Essene (Mary Magdalene, Simon Peter and John) and it’s proven from the imprint of “Turin Shroud” which was wrapped around Jesus Christ after his body was taken down from the cross and brought to the tomb. Here’s short paragraph from the book,

    In passages in Mark and Luke, the women at the tomb was told about the disappearance of Jesus by the men clad in white, in the light of what we have learned. Mark (16:6) wrote, ‘And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen, he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.’ This is comparable to Matthew (28:6), although there the actual events are given are given a fairytale setting with theatrical angel magic, an earthquake and petrified tomb guards. The terse remark of the whiterobed men in Luke (24:5) asking why they seek a living person among the dead, is as clear as can be. Jesus lived, he was rescued, he had no business in a tomb any more, the living belong among the living. He had gone ahead to galilee, where his followers could see him. We have already shown how Jesus had great difficulty in convincing the disciples of his presence in the flesh. The reason for this is twofold. First, the majority of the disciples had not been told about the resuscitation attempt, and so were convinced that they were looking at a dead person or a spirit. And secondly the first Christian theologians started to take over at the supposed deadth by crucifixion of Jesus: according to the official dogma the story of the human individual Jesus ended there, and in its place came the story of Christ – the mythically glorified Reality. It’s no wonder the Christianity as they called it were full of deceit by the first Christian theologians to mystify Jesus rather than to follow his teachings. http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Conspiracy-Turin-Shroud-Resurrection/dp/1852304855/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214979159&sr=8-3

    And for your information, at around the age of thirteen, Jesus followed the ancient Silk-road towards India and there he studied living Buddhism. He adopted its tenets and became a spiritual master himself. (Read Jesus lived in India, Holger Kersten). http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Lived-India-Before-Crucifixion/dp/0143028294/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214979159&sr=8-1

    “Sorry to tell you this but Buddhism is in Chaos now too- same with Christianity. The law from those religions no longer works does it? Chaos and imorality is everywhere in the Temples and Churches. The Buddha did not write down the scriptures and many years later they were written down by lesser monks who only could write what they understood.Buddha only left the precepts as the guide nothiong more . All the scriptures were written by lesser humans.”

    Then, how did Li Hongzhi receive his Buddha Fa? From the book or from even lesser monks after many generations later? If Buddha Fa is different from Buddhist’s dharma, then what is the source of Falun Gong’s Buddha Fa how was it preserved and transmitted? Have you ever raised the question to your Master?

    “We can respect other teachings we just cannot cultivate in more than one teaching at a time until we enlighten in that school. You have mixed way too many teachings together so which Master or Buddha will save you? ”

    That shows how you master had controlled you and making him Godlike glorification to miraculously help you and carry you to lala land and not relying on your own effort to reach enlightenment. This is all conceptual mind thinking and every thought projections are just illusions. You believe I cannot be saved by my Masters or Buddha and I don’t need to be relying on them to save me because I have tested and contemplated of every Truthful teachers and follow them and reject those teacher when I studied that they were full of delusions. If you are expecting Enlightenment (Consummation) is the final target like “I am home” or “I have reached the end of marathon finish line”, then good luck with your attachment to reach your target.

    “This is the dharma ending time and the man that turns the law wheel or dharma wheel is here. Enlighten to it . Do not slander Falun Dafa, even your teacher”

    I didn’t slander truthful teacher. I just expose deluded teacher. But it’s all right to question your teacher with due respect and it’s acceptable with Sakyamuni and every truthful teachers. Yes the man that turns the law wheel or dharma wheel is here and he is the new Buddha when udumbara flower bloom on this earth (Falun Gong spin).

    udumbara flower according to Falun Gong ( I wonder why those photos are not taken with Macro zoom and I think someone with the macro zoom should take the picture of udumbara flower and enter the photo contest at NTD will win big prize http://photo.ntdtv.com/)
    http://images.google.com/images?q=udumbara%20flower%20falun%20gong&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=DVFA,DVFA:1970–2,DVFA:en&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7mycKWApIc
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/9/2/89172.html
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/8/18/88700.html

    What is actually lacewing egg
    http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=lacewing+egg&spell=1
    http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2007/06/20/flowers-grow-on-steel-pipe-in-china.htm

  149. specul8r
    July 2nd, 2008 at 07:40 | #149

    Jana wrote:
    “Of course illnesses are karma. We were made in the image of Gods whose bodies are perfect right? We have sickness aging and death we also fear cold heat hunger pain illness, emotional stuff…if that isn’t karma what is??”

    Go and read the bible correctly. Oh… I forgot you are forbidden to learn teaching from other schools until you reach enlightenment from one school. No wonder you have no clue of what you are writing…

    “We were made in the image of Gods”? What is that? Christianity is monotheist as in “God” and I have never heard of “We were made in the image of Gods”. That’s what happen when Falun Gong try to borrow terms and phrases from other religions and use them without fully understand what they are used for or meaning of the words. Sad…

    “Of course illnesses are karma. We have sickness aging and death we also fear cold heat hunger pain illness, emotional stuff…if that isn’t karma what is??”

    According to you statement and logic, then Sakyamuni Buddha did not reach “Nirvana” and cleared his karma because he passed away at the age of 80. Hmm. this must be from your teacher Li and no wonder he claimed that he has more power than Sakyamuni Buddha. I wonder whether he can be immortal and won’t die and live on this earth forever. That will be amazing thing to watch and maybe I will die before him and will not witness in this lifetime of the most amazing things happen on this earth besides udumbara flower booming.

  150. July 2nd, 2008 at 09:04 | #150

    re Kungfupanda

    Diplomats must not break international laws that they have agreed to abide by. They must never break any law otherwise they will face the punishments accordingly. Now you are really showing your support of an evil that was so huge it threatened to destroy the world. Now its small and puny and doomed to destruct.

    If you support an evil regime that took power of a nation thru violence and war and continues today to persecute innocentgood people, then when the heavens destroy it you will also go down with it as you have been agreeing with what it is doing. The only way to remove that mark of the beast from your soul is to peacefully non violently resign fromthe Ccp; in otherwords turn you back on it comlpletely to have a good future.

    Dont you lie a; Falun Gong would not stop donations being given to the earthquake survivors. What we would say is make sure that your donations will go to the survivors and not some crooked CCp offical. Maybe you misunderstood that point.

    Communism is the ill child of the Soviet Union formly know as Russia…

  151. July 2nd, 2008 at 09:22 | #151

    Specul8r,

    Go and read the old testament . We were made in image of our Gods. Each race of people was made in the image of their own God. My Gosh is that so hard a concept to understand?? Imagine how many religious wars and millions of lives that could have been saved if religious fanatics and that includes some people calling themselves Christians understood that truth.?

    Wouldn’t you have every one respecting each other then instead killing each other in the name of their God?
    How deluded humankind is.

    Buddha Shakyamuni was not a cultivater he was a Tathagatta Buddha. He taught the precepts but never imparted any Buddha law bacuse the people of those days were simple beings only.. Those who came after him messed up that particular cultivation way for the future Buddhists. .Nothing lasts for ever unchanged. New enlightened beings come when humankind is always in deep moral decay.That is now.

    Teacher Li has never claimed to have more power than anyone. He is not hotheaded nor a cultivater. I do not know where you get your information from but it is not from any genuine Falun Dafa site.So dont waste my time and others insulting what you do not understand while using incorrect slanderous lies written about Falun Dafa and Teacher Li from ignorant and probably backed CCP sites. You have no credibilty at all on this matter.

    Anyway you sais you were not going to write anymore to me. I thinks is wise if you do stop. Like i said .. you are doing yourself way too much damage and your own righteous teacher would have long ago left you for slandering Falun Gong so i dont know who is taking care of you now….a demon unfortunately.

  152. specul8r
    July 2nd, 2008 at 14:15 | #152

    Jana,

    So what do you suppose that image of Gods mean to you? How much do you understand Christianity? Christian do not have Gods; they only have one God, the heavenly father. Shallow understanding and quote here and quote there won’t make you an expert. Your conceptual mind is full of ignorance and just like all other Falun Gone practioners, their ego is way about their head.

    As I have said before, there is no such thing as BUDDHA FA or BUDDHA LAW; there is only Dharma. Your Falun Dafa cultish organization is the one trying to blame India for destroying and driving Buddhism out of India and created the false impression that Hindu religion and Buddhism are in conflict. How deluded Falun Dafa is. Falun Dafa may fool some people as ignorant as you but they cannot fool kind hearted people in the world.

    Buddha Shakyamuni was not a cultivator? He was a Tathagatta Buddha? I suppose Buddha Li told you? More twist and lie? Buddha Sakyamuni has highest wisdom and he understand humanity so well. Go and study what Tathagata (pay attention to the correct spelling) means here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata . Tathagata means ‘reality as-it-is” from that website. So, why should he teach garbage of Li’s doctorine where ‘reality as-it-is-not’?

    Your Falun Dafa website clearwisdom.net has all the information about your teacher’s self-promoting highest level status… even higher than Buddha Sakyamuni claim by putting others down. I didn’t make it up nor did I get it from CCP.

    I wrote to you because out of my compassion to point out to your ignorant and arrogant attitude towards others is damaging your soul. May you find your way back home soon.

  153. KungFuPanda
    July 3rd, 2008 at 01:39 | #153

    Re Dana,

    “Diplomats must not break international laws that they have agreed to abide by. They must never break any law otherwise they will face the punishments accordingly.”
    That’s right. Diplomats must not break international laws. Wait a minute; is it the Chinese government has agreed to, and is trying to persecute corrupted official? In other words, you’re actually helping the “evil government” to persecute corruption.
    PS, Your CCP Cultural Revolution style rhetoric “any law” wouldn’t help you to make your case.

    “Now you are really showing your support of an evil that was so huge it threatened to destroy the world. Now its small and puny and doomed to destruct.”
    I see another example of CCP Cultural Revolution style rhetoric. No, by laying out facts doesn’t mean my preference or my endorsement.

    “If you support an evil regime that took power of a nation thru violence and war and continues today to persecute innocent good people”
    Anybody here support the idea to take over a government with violence?
    However, I still find it hard to believe that “innocent good people” were persecuted. I’m no lawyer, but my common sense says no. Tell me the percentage of people in China that fits your description of “innocent good people “. Do Australia lawyers buy in that? Which actually circles back to my very initial question to you: Jennifer, do you really believe “tortured and murdered for absolutely no good reason what so ever”?

    “when the heavens destroy it you will also go down with it as you have been agreeing with what it is doing.”
    I object that you use the word “you” here. I take it offensive. Before you learn to respect others, including those who may not agree with you, you absolutely have no right to make accusation like that.

    Australia has formal diplomatic relation with Chinese government, It’s a formal endorsement. Does that constitute agreeing with what it is doing? Or should Australia denounce the wrong doing of CCP and break the diplomatic relationship?

    You still haven’t answer my question regarding what exactly “heavens destroy it they will take you down with it”

    “The only way to remove that mark of the beast from your soul is to peacefully non violently resign fromthe Ccp; in otherwords turn you back on it comlpletely to have a good future.”
    Any CCP here?

    “Dont you lie a; “. No I don’t lie. You haven’t denied that Falun gong lies.

    “Falun Gong would not stop donations being given to the earthquake survivors. What we would say is make sure that your donations will go to the survivors and not some crooked CCp offical.”
    When Falun gong follower waive their anti-CCP and anti-China banners in front of the donations workers, especially when there is a Chinese word “哀”(moan grievance), that fits my definition of interruption of donation drive, and extreme disrespect of the dead. Want to look for the picture? look no further than Falun gong’s web site. Just in case you couldn’t find it, I have a cached copy for you. Having said that, I had the same feeling about crooked CCP officials. However, that should never prevent kind hearted persons from making donations. Angels all over the world have being reaching out for help, weather it’s a helping hand, a prayer, or a generous donation. Count the money pouring in to the disaster area. Corruption happens everywhere, including Red Cross. So, are you going to sit in front of Red Cross headquarters, telling donors about the corruption of Red Cross?
    By the way, the Dalai Lama offered official condolences to the victims.

    “Maybe you misunderstood that point.”
    No, I did not misunderstand that. It’s on the news media large and small, including Falun gong’s web site.

    “Communism is the ill child of the Soviet Union formly know as Russia…”
    The key founder of communism, Karl Heinrich Marx, was born in the Kingdom of Prussia, former German empire. His father was a Christian. So, my statement about communism is true. Russia and China were not that civilized to have the “extremely advanced” ideology at that time.

    Look at what the Western entrepreneurs, such as McDonald, Wal-Mart, General Motors, Ford Motor Company, etc, and especially the Olympic Committee, are doing. They are actually improving the living and working condition there for the ordinary people, and in the mean time helping improving the human rights, I should say political rights. Keep in mind that living and working condition are also the key ingredient of human rights according to UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  154. KungFuPanda
    July 3rd, 2008 at 02:53 | #154

    Re Dana,

    I still haven’t got any response about what exactly do you mean “heavens destroy it they will take you down with it”?

    Now, please excuse my wild imagination after reading your story “After Seventy Years, A Taoist’s Riddle Becomes Clear”, which I take it as a hint from you.

    That story brings back my remote memory about the scarce tactics of some Eastern religious to bring in new converts. I have to admit that Falun gong does not hold the trade pattern of that scarce tactics. As American Humanist Association stated, it is “incompatible with our dedication to reason and science”.

    According to the story, “To avoid the disaster, one can use a nickname or an alias to declare a withdrawal from the CCP and its associations to eliminate the beast’s mark on their faces and be saved.” …” When the disaster comes, it will be too late to repent.” So the earthquake was the “heavens destroy” CCP, and those who didn’t declare a withdrawal died in the earthquake was the result of what you stated “take you down with it”. Are you sure that all the people died in the earthquake did not withdrawal from CCP. What about those dead who might actually had withdrawn from CCP? What about those children, those school age kids who died in the earthquake. Do you believe your heaven had taken down those innocent children too?

    Now I understand why Falun gong took to the street of Flushing, NYC, to celebrate the earthquake, to prove to the world that “Falun Dafa Hao”.

    Frankly speaking, tell me who else in this world share your Falun gong’s view?

  155. July 3rd, 2008 at 05:46 | #155

    re Kungfupanda,

    Wrong again on all understandings and accounts. The view we share with many good epople in the world is one of saving lives . The persecution is not just an assault against Falun Gong pracititioners physical bodies it is an assault against humnanity, kindness and good conscience everywhere.

    The heavens take down evil that destroys faith in them everywhere. it just requires enough people in the world to support that and it is happening.

  156. July 3rd, 2008 at 05:51 | #156

    specular8,

    Christianity may have only one God but it is not the sole righteous religion inthis world.Then there is Buddhism, Judaism, Daosim, and now Falun Dafa; so please do not show your ignorance of such subjects in the name of one God only… One God only means cultivating in that Gods practice only and not mixing cultivation methods until one has consumation. Since Jesus left and Buddha left no one has achieved right fruit status or returned to their heaven.

  157. KungFuPanda
    July 4th, 2008 at 03:28 | #157

    Re Jana,

    You have stated many many times that Falun gong were “tortured and murdered for absolutely no good reason what so ever”, and there are human right issues in China. But that doesn’t give you the right to avoid the questions in this blog. Blank denial wouldn’t help you with your arguments. That’s not the logical way of discussing issues. Give your best answers to the questions one by one. Don’t just reference the opinionated articles from Falun gong’s media outlets; show something from accredited news media channels.

    You stated that you and Falun gong are saving lives. Then tell me how many lives that Falun gong has saved in the earthquake. Tell me how many children and school kids that Falun gong has saved in the earthquake.

    “The heavens take down evil that destroys faith in them everywhere.”
    You’re not referring that innocent children were also “destroyed” by your heaven?

    “it just requires enough people in the world to support that and it is happening.”
    So, it’s not bloody enough to call off your heaven to stop the earthquake in light the massive lose of human lives, including innocent children and school age kids?

    As you suggested in your story “After Seventy Years, A Taoist’s Riddle Becomes Clear”, tell me how many people have been killed by your heavens for not following the suggestions in that story. Tell me how many innocent children and school age kids were killed by your heavens for not following the suggestions in that story.

  158. lee
    July 4th, 2008 at 03:51 | #158

    you guys can argue back and forth with all the logic and facts, to me, the choice is really simple. I am on the flg side.
    This is a free country, you can believe what ever you want as long you don’t hurt anybody. So far so good, flg’s belief hurt no one but created bunch of resilient followers.
    On the other side, I don’t like communist, gladly i am not the only one. so I support anyone who dare to go against communist, in this case, the only one group has some action is flg so i support them.
    I feel pretty soon, people will realize and appreciate the bravery and relentlessness about flg. in the end, flg is here to stay, and the communist will go down in history.

  159. July 4th, 2008 at 04:51 | #159

    Re Kungfupanda

    I have answered all of your questions many times , its just you don’t understand the answers and or don’t agree with them or believe what I am saying But to ease your mind and others on this blog I will answer them one by one as you have asked for in your previous comment ok here goes

    You said:
    Don’t just reference the opinionated articles from Falun gong’s media outlets; show something from accredited news media channels. The articles from Epoch Times are not opinionated we present the facts and just so you know The Epoch Times is accredited. WE covered Apec meetings in Australia and meetings between Bush and Hu Jintao we are an accredited news outlet. So stop slandering us. Other wise we will never get anywhere achieving your understanding of Falun Gong or The Epoch Times. Okay?

    Kingfupanda said:

    You stated that you and Falun gong are saving lives. Then tell me how many lives that Falun gong has saved in the earthquake. Tell me how many children and school kids that Falun gong has saved in the earthquake.

    I say
    Diasters happen all over the world.
    That is beyond our control as human’s right?
    But when a great evil comes into the world and destroys peoples good nature and their belief in Gods and even murders them for believing in Gods Buddha’s and Dao’s, then we who are being persecuted must help these poor blind people see again. To help a destroyed nation wake up to understanding that this is evil and must be stopped not thru bloody revolution and murder but thru rationality and compassion and love for your fellow human beings future, . So far nearly 40 million people have quit the Ccp. Thru rationally waking themselves up to the facts. Why would anyone persecute good people who strive to be good people by embracing truth compassion and tolerance? There could only be one reason alone. The same reason is why the Ccp destroyed all the culture, art and religious icons during the Cultural Revolution and murdered 80 million Chinese people over the last 60 years. The Ccp has not changed one bit. Oh sure some 400 million Chinese have mobile phones cars apartments and good money now. But how long will that last? A few decades? What have the Chinese people had to do to achieve that? Lose their morality and good conscience -the very essence that made the Chinese people respected all over the world?

    Those 40 million who have resigned from the Ccp and its related organisations have chosen a good future for themselves thanks to the Falun Gong practitioners in China who have risked their physical lives, endured torture, loss of income and family life to save the Chinese people.

    Out side of China we have in a short time collected 1 million signatures of VIPs and everyday people to call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in China. IN Australia last week the Federal Govt senate passed a unanimously passed a motion/bill in parliament to call for an end to persecution of Falun Gong in China. The USA Senate, British and Canadian, Spanish senates have also done this. The world is waking up to the facts about this persecution and is doing something about it.

    This is what Falun Gong practitioners mean by saving lives for a good future.

    Kungfupanda said

    “The heavens take down evil that destroys faith in them everywhere.”
    You’re not referring that innocent children were also “destroyed” by your heaven?

    I say
    No of course not. The earthquake is sign for the CCP to stop committing evil on the Chinese people. The evil I am referring to is the Ccp who are persecuting not only Falun Gong but all Chinese and the worlds people from knowing the truth so as to maintaining their power over Chinese people .When in fact the Ccp is not God or a Buddha or a Dao. Any illegitimate Govt that take power thru the barrel of a gun is deemed evil of the all heavens. And they will be taken down. But a person supports this regime after knowing the facts about what it is doing then they also will not have a good future. If they resign from the ccp and turn their back on it in their hearts then they are no longer aligned with the evil and will have good future.

    Kunguf Panda said

    “it just requires enough people in the world to support that and it is happening.”
    So, it’s not bloody enough to call off your heaven to stop the earthquake in light the massive lose of human lives, including innocent children and school age kids?

    I say
    Human beings cannot tell the Gods what to do.. WE can only help other human beings down here to understand that it is not man or the Ccp that is in control but the Gods , Buddha’s and Dao’s.

    Throughout history human civilisation has always experienced natural disasters and misfortune. These so called acts of nature usually happen when the morality of the nation/world is not longer acceptable to the Gods who take care of us. These are warnings.. What civilisation would not take heed of these as warnings before this scientific led civilisation. Science cannot save you to the heaven or send you to hell. Humans must get things into perspective. And begin to believe in their Buddha or God again. We must improve our morality and respect for each other. Falun Gong is achieving this and that’s why the Ccp persecutes us.

    Kungfupanda said

    As you suggested in your story “After Seventy Years, A Taoist’s Riddle Becomes Clear”, tell me how many people have been killed by your heavens for not following the suggestions in that story. Tell me how many innocent children and school age kids were killed by your heavens for not following the suggestions in that story.

    I say

    I think I have answered this question above . If you believe then quit the Ccp while you can before the heavens take you down with it, because I do know that for sure the Ccp will disintegrate. Quit now for a bright future.

    Please read the 9 Commentaries which will show you what in history the ccp has done to the Chinese nation.
    Read the 9 commentaries at
    http://ninecommentaries.com/
    Nearly 40 million have quit the Ccp and all its affiliated organizations.

  160. July 4th, 2008 at 05:04 | #160

    Thank you Lee for your understanding and support. This stance that you have taken aligns you with all that is good in humanity and this is what will save you to a bright and wonderful future.

    To the rest of you this is persecution is not just contained in Ccp led China. it is everywhere all over the world. When our polticiasn do not stadn up for what is right and kowrtow to the Ccp for trade and money or our mainstream medis does report the facts becasue teh ccp wont gove them pass for the Olympics etc…. you get the picture.. Everyone on the planet is has to make a choice and it is our responsibility to give th facts so each and everyone can make that conscience choice to support good in the world.

    It is no coincidence that Falun Gong practtioners live in 80 different countries all around the world and we have started up our own 3 media in 26 countries because most mainstream media including TV will not report truthfully on this matter . Becasue of money trade and business with China.This is no coincidence either. Like i said previoulsy this is more than persecution of the physical body, it is persecution of the humanity, kindness and conscience all over the world..

  161. KungFuPanda
    July 4th, 2008 at 07:26 | #161

    Re Lee,

    True that this is a free country. However, it doesn’t give anybody the right to lie, to disrespect the dead, to use the devastating earthquake to further its political agenda. Nobody in this world would do that to the victims, the dead, including children and school age kids.
    Tell me what kind of people would do that? The Dalai Lama offered official condolences to the victims. Where’s Falun gong’s? All I can find on the internet was the happy faces shouting “Falun Dafa Hao”

    That’s fine that you decided to side with FLG. But I wish you’d not interrupt donation drive for the earthquake victims. Also, look for the Chinese character “哀” (moan observance). Pay minimum respect to the dead, including children.
    http://en.epochtimes.com/news_images/2008-5-22-leadex.jpg
    Also wish you’d keep yourself away from “天灭中国”, which I care a lot.
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/05/30/nyregion/falun600.jpg

    Re “Falun gong’s belief hurt no one”. Look at the achieve by cult expert Rick A. Ross Institute http://www.rickross.com/groups/falun.html
    — “Li Hongzhi forbids followers to seek medical attention”. Tell me how many people have died due to lack of timely medical attention. Because of that, tell me how much of tax payer’s dollars was wasted to treat Falun gong followers, where tones of tax payer’s dollars could have been saved if only they seek medical assistance earlier.
    — “Li Hongzhi has stated that his followers could stop speeding cars using the powers of his teachings” Do you know that children are being preached by Falun gong. Tell me that Falun gong never taught children about that super nature power.
    —“Falun Gong follower Chen Gao, set herself on fire at Tiananmen Square and is now horribly disfigured and crippled.” Innocent people are been used for its political agenda. Tell me that it’s not true.

    Re “there are some pro communist Chinese people here in the states.” Frankly speaking, I don’t agree. Look, even the communists don’t like communism. See how fast they have changed during the past several decades, from communism to socialism and to now capitalism (at least in economy). From what I can see, majority Chinese American want people in China, together with their friends, relatives, to have a peaceful, prosperous live.

    FLG is not the only group that takes on CCP. Look at 中国民主正义党 cdjp.org, and the exert from the web site: “《大纪元》时报刊登法拉盛当地华人抗议法轮功照片,将抗议者统统说成是‘中共特务’和中共收买的‘帮凶’,这是整个在美国的‘法轮功’的集团行为,所以目前在美国的这些‘法轮功’是一个在假‘法轮功’控制下的政治集团。”

    我们可以这样说,对于三种“法轮功”来说,我们对于第一种应该尊重他们的信仰自由,对于第二种,他们实际上不是真正的“法轮功”,可是中共也对他们加以迫害,他们觉得“冤枉”,我们表示理解和同情,我们反对中共对这两种“法轮功”进行镇压。

    但是,对于第三种“法轮功”,他们有两种可能,他们要么是地地道道的“邪教”,他们还有可能是真正的中共特务集团控制之下,目的是要破坏民众对前两种“法轮功”的同情,目的是要破坏民众支持前两种“法轮功”反对中共镇压和迫害的人权活动。因此,向前两种“法轮功”人士和民众揭露第三种“法轮功”,即假的“法轮功”,是维护“法轮功”向中共政府要求信仰自由、练习自由和反对镇压迫害的重要人权活动。”

  162. lee
    July 4th, 2008 at 16:56 | #162

    panda,
    I’ve been around long enough so the Chinese communist can’t fool me that easily.
    On the flg issue. i don’t know much about belief other than their preached 3 principles and few exercises, but what you are giving me is the same crap from chinese communist bogus propaganda. Tell me something new about flg other than “‘evil cult’ “self immolation”, “no allow drugs”, “political”, we’ve heard it all. Normally if from another source, i maybe believe part of it, since its from communist, i believe none of what they said.

    1. you are right not to disrespect the dead, but who said flg doesn’t respect the dead. I see them carry dead ones’ picture killed by the communist all the time. in terms of humanity, they have been supporting the chinese followers aboard for many years which way more than the one time earthquake charities around. in reality, i don’t believe flg doesn’t care about earthquake victims.

    2. the picture link from ny time cut off the last word which i think it is “gong” not “guo”.

    What I learned and observed the past few years is flg is a very special group, they are china’s real hope.
    on the flg issue, people can stay neutral, support, or follow the communist, i suggest choose your decision wisely.

  163. KungFuPanda
    July 4th, 2008 at 23:13 | #163

    Re lee,

    I too have been around long enough so that Chinese communist, as well as Falun Gong, can’t fool me, not a single bit. Keep in mind that Falun gong is a religious and religious entity. The teaches are the very first step of the bait and switch tactics to get new converts.

    Regarding the craps that I presented, none of them were from communist bogus propaganda. Unless you regard American Humanist Association, http://www.bible.ca/falun-gong-falun-dafa-zhuan-falun.htm, as well as Rick A. Ross Institute, all as communist bogus propaganda. Which I don’t think so.

    1. That doesn’t mean Falun gong respect the dead. If true, they should also carry the picture of the earthquake victims. Instead, they carried the pictures of the dead allegedly murdered by China government. To me, it’s a political show off, in light the devastating earthquake.

    And they should never interrupt earthquake relief efforts. They should never mess up with the grievance, even if they were their enemies, let along these dead children. They should never parade down the streets of NYC, shouting “Falun Dafa Hao”, while people are dying in the rubble.

    2. NY Times cut out two sensitive characters in the picture, one is “gong” as you mentioned, other is “guo”. I grew up in China. Nobody can fool me on that. That’s extremely anti-China, not just the government, it also spear headed toward Chinese people, which happened I care a lot.

    Falun gong is not the real hope of China. Read the American Humanist Association’s open letter to Falun gong: “Though the Falun Gong in the United States claim “tolerance” as a primary principle, the Chinese word for this principle (Ren) is more appropriately translated as “forbearance;” in this case, forbearance as a form of resignation, a survival skill for getting through suffering”. My understanding is that there’re two issues here. One is lie, that should have never been miss-translated. The other is revenge, inline with the allegation of intolerance. Unless Falun gong clears the major allegations surfing on the web, it will not get my endorsement as the hope of China.

    I had almost forgotten about Falun until the Flushing incident. My curiosity led me all over the internet, which then strengthened my opinion about Falun gong as one of the Eastern religions of lie trying to use whatever means to get it back.

  164. July 5th, 2008 at 07:25 | #164

    re Kungfupanda,
    said-
    “That doesn’t mean Falun gong respect the dead. If true, they should also carry the picture of the earthquake victims. Instead, they carried the pictures of the dead allegedly murdered by China government. To me, it’s a political show off, in light the devastating earthquake.”

    I say ” So we cannot commerate our dead not killed by accident but by brutal murder senseless murder innocent victums murdered by the ones you try to protect the evil Ccp..

    Panda said
    “And they should never interrupt earthquake relief efforts. They should never mess up with the grievance, even if they were their enemies, let along these dead children. They should never parade down the streets of NYC, shouting “Falun Dafa Hao”, while people are dying in the rubble.”

    I say
    We were not interferring with the victims or the mourning of the victims. The mobsters from the Ccp came to us stirring up trouble shouting out lies that we were happy the earthquake happened. Do you know that Chinese counsellor that organsied this is now in trouble and New Yorkers are calling for impeachment of this CCp mobster.

    Our millions of FAlun Gong practitioners are imprisioned in slave labor camps, blood tested to match waiting recipients for their organs and then have their organs taken from them while still alive sold and into the overseas recipient.The Olympics are coming now and what a show that will be to try and impress the worlds leaders and other countries. What a joke because as long as this genocide continues against all good people in China then communsit led china is not better than North Korea, Burmese Junta, Robert Mugabe and the warring Sudense– jsut savages dressed up in glitery fake clothing,

    This tradgedy is what is happening in China to the brave Chinese people. The Ccp rules with the rule of Man and is hungry and will do anything to keep power at all cost – even murder the very best of Chinese and it is the Ccp who do not care for the Chinese children and parents in the earhtquake. OPen you eyes. FAlun Gong is not the enmey. The Ccp is . I love the Chinese people, their history their culture and most of all because they broughtFalun Gong back to life after 5000 years.

  165. specul8r
  166. July 6th, 2008 at 03:17 | #166

    Is that all you can find? Really what you have failed to understand is that this is a persecution of all humanities conscience. Why do soom media report the truth and others not? Could it be that the owners of that media do big business with Ccp led China? Why is that only some polticians speak out with therir good conscience and other remain silent> Could it be they also do big business with CCp led China.

    This is a persecution against humanity, kindness and conscience all over the world. Luckily FAlun Gong are telling the facts to the world and they are waking up.their conscience is waking up .. Like i said our Federal Australian senate voted unanimously in supprt of ending the persecution of Falun in China…

  167. lee
    July 6th, 2008 at 06:41 | #167

    panda,
    here we go again back and forth try to get to the bullhorn. what you try to convince me here? flg is bad? communist is good? let’s get rid of flg? in the eyes of communist, flg is the “evil cult’ and the most dangerous enemy, in the eyes of flg followers, flg is the most precious thing in life so they won’t give it up no matter what. In my eyes, since I don’t like communist, anyone who oppose them is my friend.
    Look, the communist have been trying to get rid of flg for many years and failed, they the fire starter, those links you sent wouldn’t exist if communist didn’t advertised the world about flg, we wouldn’t see flg on the street if communist didn’t get too extreme with the persecution, now if you don’t like to see flg’s activities and fed up, maybe you should either join the communist with their effort, or tell the communist to make peace, so flg won’t have any good reasons to get into “politics” and we may no longer see them on the street. after all, it’s the communist started all the trouble for you, me, and flg.
    okay, let’s talk about the reality, flg is legal here, the last time I checked it is legal to practice everywhere except china, as matter fact, the congress pass a resolution to protects them, don’t tell me the congressmen are all idiots and would want to come up with a law to protect ‘evil cults.’ There must be good reasons. on the other hand, we all know communist is not welcomed in the states and flg opposes communist, so if you are in the state, think before choose your sides.
    You know about flg’s quitting ccp activities right? flg’s message is simple, “if you not happy about the government, just quit it”, first of all, they got some good reasons, second, they know there plenty people not happy in china, third, they make the procedure simple and you don’t need to join them, think about it, it sounds ridiculous, but it’s really genius, simple yet effective. We all know communist forces everyone swears to serve them unconditionally in china since elementary school, I know I did and now I quit, although I wasn’t a member, but just announce that I fed up with the communist makes me feel good, and you know what, flg helped me with that. Back to my point, weather you like it or not, the situation right now is communist is crumbling down with troubles all over, but flg is gaining the momentum. and for those who are sicken tired of the communist party in china, flg is their hope.
    For the sake of argument and come back to the bullhorn, I would have to disagree flg is disrupting earthquake relief. why? because I asked them about it and they denied the intention of disrupting, so I believed them. simple as that.
    Last thing, just curious, can you show me just one picture with flg’ sign saying:” tian mie zhong guo”?

  168. specul8r
    July 6th, 2008 at 23:39 | #168

    Surprise~

    Harry Wu (Wu Hongda) and CICUS do not do business with China. Harry Wu was a dissident in China in the 70s and released from Laogai in February 21, 1979. Why did he expose Sujiatun’s hoax? His human conscience even though he was sympathetic with Falun Gong movement. Do you know him at all? I bet you don’t and here’s his biography: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22295

    Good luck defending youself.

  169. specul8r
    July 7th, 2008 at 02:06 | #169

    I encourage everyone to read J. Krishnamurti’s books and especially “The IMPOSSIBLE QUESTION” book (first edition published in Great Britain, 1972), all the informations you are looking for is explained precisely with simple contemplation and understanding. Dalai Lama and many other spiritual and religious leaders as well as famous Quantum Physicist David Bohm had consulted him in many occasions.

  170. July 7th, 2008 at 02:24 | #170

    Harry Wu was a dissident that went back to CCp led China after 1999 where he was arressted and set free after only 3 weeks to go back to the USA to stirup trouble for FAlun Gong overseas…

    This is story for the Buddhists and all relgious followers out there.
    Here is a story of Korean Buddhist Monk Attained What He Had Longed for After Watching Divine Performing Arts Performance , he now has turned to Falun Gong .
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/8/2/88253.html

    (Clearwisdom.net) In mid-May 2007, Divine Performing Arts, established in America, concluded its world tour. Among the 81 performances, three were held in South Korea in late April. These performances deeply touched the Korean people, whose culture was heavily influenced by the Chinese culture. Many Korean Buddhist monks and monks attended the performances in Korea. Why did these Buddhist cultivators attend these performances?

    Caption: Buddhist monk Young-Kyu Oh practices the Falun Gong sitting meditation

    Caption: Young-Kyu Oh and Beop-Ryun Cha studying one of the Falun Gong books

    Mr. Young-Kyu Oh, 85, was one of the Buddhist monks who attended the Divine Performing Arts performance. He said, “I am no longer interested in any worldly matters. Since very young, I have watched very few performances. I did not see any merit in any art performance in the past, but the Divine Performing Arts performance is different from everything I have seen. This performance cannot be described as just an art performance because its content is much too profound. It is filled with meanings purported in cultivation. Its beauty is beyond words.”

    Young-Kyu Oh shared that he couldn’t stop crying during the entire performance. To understand what linked him to the performance, we have to begin with Oh’s birth.

    A Mother’s Dream During Her Pregnancy

    Before Young-Kyu Oh was born, his mother had already given birth to four daughters. It was the greatest misfortune for a married woman in a country that values sons over daughters. A member of the family even suggested forcing her to leave. Therefore, Oh’s mother went to the Buddhist temple to worship Buddha and ask for a son. Oh’s mother then became pregnant again.

    Before Young-Kyu Oh was born, his mother had a dream where Buddha descended from heaven and gave her a book. She also dreamed about a child dancing over water and jumping inside a fire. But, the child would not drown or burn. Oh’s mother decided that this must be a special child because she worshiped Buddha. She decided to have the child study in a Buddhist temple when it grew up.

    A Childhood Longing

    There was an elderly man in Oh’s hometown who was a house servant for King Kojong. Since the age of eight, Oh studied Chinese with him. At the time the man was already in his seventies. He studied Gyeok-Am Yu-Rok, a famous ancient Korean prophecy. An ancient Korean astronomer, Sa-Go Nam, wrote it down after a mysterious trip to Mount Kum Gang San. He was told and asked to record the prophecy by a divine being. Nam couldn’t decipher the prophecy. The written record is the Gyeok-Am Yu-Rok prophecy. The famous prophecy was named after Sa-Go Nam’s assumed name, Gyeok-Am.

    The old man from Oh’s hometown taught Chinese and important principles. He once told Oh that if he could live beyond 70 years old, he would meet Buddha Maitreya who would be descending to the human realm and spreading the righteous Buddha Law. Then the world would become good again and there would be awe-inspiring changes, just as when heaven and earth were created. He told Oh that he would not live to see it happen. He also was childless and thought it to be a great pity. He said, “If you want to live long enough to meet Buddha Maitreya, you must be thoughtful of others at all times and pay filial respect towards your parents. You must not do anything illegal. You must respect everyone. The truth is that to be thoughtful of others is to be thoughtful of yourself.”

    Young-Kyu Oh has always remembered these words. He has made a conscious effort to follow the old man’s advice. To be considerate and help people in need, such as carrying heavy bags for other people, has become second nature to him.

    When Oh was little, one of his older sisters once made him a set of clothes for the New Year. Oh’s mother had passed away by then, and his family was not well off. Oh put on the new clothes and went to play with the neighborhood kids. When he arrived at one his playmates’ homes, he saw his little friend crying. The child’s father was addicted to gambling, leaving his mother to work as a seamstress to provide for the family. There was hardly enough income to put food on the table. When his neighborhood playmates wore new clothes for New Year, his family could not afford new clothes for her. Oh felt very sad for her, so he gave his new clothes to that child. He put his old clothes back on. Oh’s sister reproached him for it, but little Young-Kyu thought only of being a good person and living until the advent of the righteous Buddha Law.

    Several Decades of Searching

    Oh joined Buddhist temples, but the monks were only interested in soliciting alms. Seeing that the Buddhist temples were no longer a place for cultivation practice, Oh cultivated in a mountain cave. He also lived with a Taoist cultivator for some time. But, he discovered that the Taoist would throw tantrums easily over trivial matters despite the fact that he had cultivated for over 30 years. Oh decided that it would not be good for his cultivation, even if he stayed for a hundred years.

    Oh searched for a genuine cultivation practice. When he was in his sixties, he decided to study the Buddhist scriptures and become a fully ordained Buddhist monk. He enrolled in a Buddhist college. One day a lecturer taught the class Nirvana Sutra, a collection of Buddha Dharma articles about what Shakyamuni had taught when he was about to reach nirvana. In his later years, Shakyamuni said that the Dharma he had taught for the past 49 years was false and is but a foundation for the genuine Dharma. He said that he would now tell his disciples the truth. In Nirvana Sutra, Shakyamuni talks about the Wheel-Turning King appearing in the Dharma-ending period. Oh said that he suddenly was on high alert when he heard the story.

    Later, Oh went to a Buddhist temple in Koh Gen Do, where he continued to study and teach Buddhist scriptures. However, the Buddhist monks in the temple only chanted Buddhist scriptures and learned superficial meanings of the scriptures. Generally, it takes over 20 years to study all the Buddhist scriptures, but they took only a year. They flipped through the pages very quickly in class. Oh said, “Jealousy and avarice were rampant among the Buddhist monks in the temple. A Buddhist monk even forced us to eat meat. Later I left the temple and lived with a friend.”

    His friend lives in a village near the old manor of Il-Sun Gang, the pioneer who established the Jeung San Do region. The village has about 2,000 households, and the elderly folks were Il-Sun Gang’s disciples. One time Young-Kyu Oh saw elderly folks pointing at farmland and shouting excitedly, “Buddha Maitreya has descended to the human realm! Why haven’t we heard about him?”

    Oh was shocked. He asked, “What do you mean? Where is Buddha Maitreya?” They explained to him that Gang had once predicted that Buddha Maitreya would appear when the pine trees in front of the village turned into a mulberry farm and then rice paddies. Due to a road construction, the mulberry farm was converted to rice paddies.

    “It was 1982. When I learned the prophecy was fulfilled, I told my friend, ‘There is no need for me to seek residence. I must travel to find Buddha Maitreya.'” Thus Oh bid farewell to his friend and wandered about in Korea, but he didn’t find Buddha Maitreya. Later, Oh suddenly remembered something Il-Sun Gang had said, “Bad luck would befall you if you seek Buddha Maitreya. If you stay put and cultivate your morality, Buddha Maitreya will come to find you.” Then Oh felt relaxed. he went to a Buddhist temple, where he endured hardships and cultivated himself. He kept thinking about improving himself.

    Holy Law-Wheel King as Described in Buddhist Scriptures

    Since 1988, Young-Kyu Oh has focused on studying the Nirvana Sutra. It is difficult to explain the content of Nirvana Sutra, but Oh thought that he had grasped the meanings and inner content. Therefore, he lectured on Nirvana Sutra, but very few people were able to understand his teachings. Nirvana Sutra mainly says that there is no righteous Buddha Law until the coming of the Holy Law-Wheel King. It says that Hinayana Buddhism is nothing more than preparation for the coming of the Holy Law-Wheel King. This was the most important message in Nirvana Sutra.

    Nirvana Sutra says that there is only one Holy Wheel-Turning King in all of eternity and that there was no righteous Buddha Law until the coming of the Holy Wheel-Turning King. It also said that all thieves throughout the world would become good people when the Holy Wheel-Turning King comes to the human realm.

    The Nirvana Sutra also says that the Holy Wheel-Turning King is instructing Bodhisattvas and greater Bodhisattvas, who will one morning show themselves to the world and shock the world’s people, when everything would change.

    The Predestined Opportunity Arrived

    According to Young-Kyu Oh, the purpose of his life was to wait for the righteous Buddha Law. It is said in Gyeok-Am Yu-Rok that the righteous Buddha Law will be officially spread in 1993 and will be spread around the world in 2005. It also says that one must not miss the opportunity to cultivate in the righteous Buddha Law and one must try to survive the change that will alter heaven and earth.

    Gyeok-Am Yu-Rok also says that its prophecy might not be 100% accurate because Lord Buddha (Buddha Maitreya) will be the one who makes the ultimate decision. Therefore, what he will do may not be the same as the prophecy predicted. Knowing that one cannot reach consummation by following any of the existing cultivation schools, Young-Kyu Oh began to tell people his personal understandings of the Nirvana Sutra. While distributing the self-made compilations of his understanding, Oh waited for Buddha Maitreya to arrive.

    One night Oh’s fellow cultivator, an elderly Buddhist nun named Beop-Ryun Cha, asked if Oh was certain that he would travel to Seoul the next day. If Oh were going to Seoul the next day, Cha would get up very early to make his breakfast. Oh told her that he decided it was not necessary to travel to Seoul and retired to his room.

    But when he returned to his room, he somehow felt like going to Seoul again. he had a premonition that something wonderful was waiting for him. He decided that he shouldn’t stay at home, but he had already told Cha that he was not going. Oh had changed his mind twice, so he was embarrassed to tell Cha that he changed his mind again.

    Finally Oh decided to cook some noodles for breakfast himself the next morning.

    The next morning when Oh went to the kitchen, he was surprised that Cha had made breakfast for him. “Why did you make breakfast?” Oh asked out of curiosity.

    Cha told Oh a mysterious story. Cha was sleeping when a young man looking like a high school student knocked on the door. It was most curious that the door and curtain suddenly became transparent, allowing Cha to see what was going on outside the door. She was about to open the door when the young man disappeared into thin air. Cha was very sleepy, so she didn’t think much about it before she went back to sleep again. Within a short time, the same young man knocked on the door again. Like the previous time, he knocked on the door a few times. Before Cha opened the door, he stopped knocking. By then, Cha was completely awake. She thought, “Perhaps it was a hint for me to make breakfast because Young-Kyu was going to Seoul? I’d better go make breakfast.”

    The Wish Came True

    Riding in the subway in Seoul, Oh saw a woman sitting across from his seat holding a book with a golden cover. Oh thought this must be a Buddhist scripture judging by its golden cover. But it did not look like any Buddhist scripture he had seen before. He bent over to check out the title of the book. It said Zhuan Falun on the cover. Oh was shocked and immediately remembered the Holy Wheel-Turning King descending to the human realm, as described in Nirvana Sutra. Except for the Holy Wheel-Turning King, who would have the temerity to claim that he is “turning the Wheel of Law?” Oh told the woman, “This is a very precious book!” The woman replied, “Would you like to read it?” Oh said, “Indeed, I would like to read it. But I cannot accept such a precious book for free. If you would give me your phone number, I will mail you the money for the book.”

    Oh anxiously opened Zhuan Falun. The first thing he read was Lunyu. Young-Kyu Oh said, “I was so shocked that my mind turned blank. Its content is so profound that I felt as though I had seen the whole universe.”

    As soon as he finished reading “Lunyu,” he telephoned Cha and told her, “Stop reading Nirvana Sutra from now on. I will present you with an incomparably precious book. From now on, study only this book.”

    As soon as Oh returned to the temple, he showed Zhuan Falun to Cha. When Cha opened Zhuan Falun and saw Mr. Li Hongzhi’s photo, she was overcome with surprise. “This is the young man who woke me up in the morning.”

    Since then, Beop-Ryun Cha has been cultivating in Falun Gong and conducting herself strictly according to Zhuan Falun. Cha said that she sees Teacher when she practices the sitting meditation and Teacher looks just as young as when she saw him the first time. Teacher looks as young as a high school student with one hand in his pocket.

    Oh added, “Every time I read Teacher’s Hong Yin, I cannot stop crying. The only thing that occupies my mind is to have more people know about Falun Gong. This is the only thing I think about.”

    After Oh watched the Divine Performing Arts performance, Oh said that he is all the more convinced in his choice of his lifetime pursuit.

  171. specul8r
    July 7th, 2008 at 06:24 | #171

    More contradictions in your story. More explanations to do.

  172. specul8r
    July 7th, 2008 at 06:36 | #172

    Your source of news always come from non-independent sources. Conflict of interests.

  173. July 7th, 2008 at 06:55 | #173

    NO no conflict of interest or any more explanations needed. You need to put down your self educating teachings from too many sources as they are the ones that are invalid from years of interference from speculaters like you confusing the truth.. Just study in one school . Even everyday level has same principle when coming to higher level education.. You are not interested in the truth only slandering Falun Gong practitoners and its afiliated media. So no more sense talking with you. You have made your case and i cannot help you any further.

  174. July 7th, 2008 at 11:31 | #174

    Not very nice leaders they have in communist led China.The Chinese people have suffered enough and this last hoax about Falun Gong being an evil xxxx is the last straw. PLease quit the Ccp for a bright future for yourself. Encourage many other that you care about to do likewise.

    kindest regards Jana

    10 things you have to know about China

    1. Large scale forced human organ harvesting:
    Organ Harvested from live Falun Gong adherents, in China Labor camps, hospitals, prisons and military facilities, started from 1999 till present
    Reports:
    – “bloody harvest“,http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ by David Matas, Esq. and Hon. David Kilgour, Esq. Canada
    – UN report on China organ harvesting http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/06/16/un-reports-on-china-organ-harvesting/
    Video:
    – CTV Newsnet Live: Press conference from Ottawa (on China organ harvesting)
    ttp://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=TopStories&video_link_high=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2006/07/06/ctvvideologger2_691kbps_2006_07_06_1152197705.wmv&video_link_low=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2006/07/06/ctvvideologger2_218kbps_2006_07_06_1152197165.wmv&clip_start=00:00:08.10&clip_end=00:11:23.58&clip_caption=CTV Newsnet Live: Press conference from Ottawa&clip_id=ctvnews.20060706.00153000-00153099-clip1&subhub=video&no_ads=&sort
    (You need the latest version of Media Player to watch the video)
    – Youtube Video: Press conference, by David Matas and David Kilgour:
    Part1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkf2u1Umzi4
    part2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rgUMoe0FWQ
    part3, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hchaSrVjbLQ
    part4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iryj-WfLQoE

    2. Largest wave of resignation from the Chinese Communist Party and its affiliated organizations is happening:
    More than 39 million Chinese have quit the CCP till July 2008, people are continue quitting at a rate about 44,000 to 56,000 per day in July 2008.
    This wave started from 2005, people have posted their statements on the Quit CCP http://tuidang.epochtimes.com/ (in Chinese) http://ninecommentaries.com/
    Details information can be found from following 2 posts:
    – China: 35 Million Chinese Quit the Communist Party, Apr.13, 2008
    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2008/04/13/35-million-chinese-people-announce-quit-communist-party-on-website/

    – Statistics and Q/A: 20 Million Chinese Quit the Chinese Communist Party, April 3rd, 2007, http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/04/03/statistics-and-qa-20-million-chinese-quit-the-chinese-communist-party/

    3. “6-10 office”, a modern Gestapo organization exists
    Formed by former leader of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Jiang Zemin, the “610 office” has its central office in Beijing, and branches in all the Chinese cities, villages, governmental agencies, institutions, and schools.
    Details: China’s Modern Gestapo (1)- Preface
    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2006/09/24/610-office-chinas-modern-gestapo-preface/

    4. Torture widely used in more than 300 Forced Labor camps located all over the country Details: List of China Modern Torture Methods (slideshow)
    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/03/29/list-of-china-modern-torture-methods-photo/

    5. As many as 80 million Chinese died after the Communist party gained power since 1949
    This number exceeds the total number of deaths in both World Wars combined.
    Details: On the Chinese Communist Party’s History of Killing (external link), by the Epochtimes http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

    6. 5000-year-long traditional Chinese culture was destroyed by the Chinese Communist party
    Especially in the 10-year-period “culture revolution”, from 1966 to 1976
    Details: On How the Chinese Communist Party Destroyed Traditional Culture (external link), by the Epochtimes, http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-20/25087.html
    Youtube Video: First half, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbGa1yCaUoc
    Second half, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28uadooVPMI

    7. Tibetan shot to death by Chinese soldiers, October, 2006
    Reports: Video footage shows Tibetans shot in the back by Chinese soldiers, October 13th, 2006
    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2006/10/13/video-footage-shows-tibetans-shot-in-the-back-by-china-soldiers/

    8. Armed police publicly open fire to villagers in south China, December, 2005
    Place: Dongzhou village, Shanwei City, Guangdong Province, southeast China
    Date: Dec. 6, 2005
    Reason: Farmers protest the government plans of partially infilling the bay and build a new power plant
    Details: Dongzhou protests, from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongzhou_protests_of_2005

    9. Gulja killing- Hundreds, perhaps thousands of ethnic Uighurs killed by armed police, 1997
    Place: Gulja (Yining) city, Xingjiang, northwest China
    Date: Feb. 5~6, 1997
    Reason: calling for an end to discrimination against ethnic Uighurs
    Details: Amnesty International
    – Rebiya Kadeer’s personal account of Gulja after the massacre on 5 February 1997, http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ASA17/001/2007

    10. Tiananmen massacre – June. 4, 1989
    Thousands of students shot to death by tanks and soldiers on Tiananmen square in capital city Beijing in 1989
    Place: Tiananmen Square, Beijing, China
    Date: June 6, 1989
    Reason: University students protested corruption, appealing for democracy
    Details &Video : Videos: Tiananmen Square Massacre 18 Years Ago in China
    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/video-tiananmen-square-massacre-18-years-ago-in-china/

  175. specul8r
    July 8th, 2008 at 00:52 | #175

    Ha. If you can fool people by showing one monk represents the whole Buddhism in Korea and enlightened to Falun Dafa, it is showing how you are so naive and being taken your deluded soul away by the evil in Buddha suit. Sorry, you may think you are being saved but you are leading to the wrong way. Show me independent religious group like some leader of Kadampa Buddhism in Tibet or radical Islamic Fundamentalist picked up Falun Gone because it is so good. Don’t show me some unknown Buddhist monk pick up a book and start practicing Zhuan Falun. Can you do that without referencing your propaganda mouthpiece? Of course not because your mind is clouded by the propaganda and nothing can enlighten you any longer. It’s your soul that you are going to be continuously reborn as human being or as animal depends on your previous karma and continue doing what you are doing without any progress. Nothing is more truth than “Impermanence” that’s including all these politics and including Falun Gone. Your group try to persuade Dalai Lama to read Zhuan Falun but he was polite and don’t want to offend your group when one of your member offered him Zhuan Falun. He doesn’t want to make the person unhappy by accepting but it doesn’t mean he agreed with Falun Gone. He knew too well that Falun Gone leader is just full of ‘it’.

  176. July 8th, 2008 at 05:06 | #176

    No not just one monk but many nuns monks from all denominations. One hundred million people all around the world living in everyday society changing the way society should behave – To be kind ,good and endure. Not in monastries but in everyday society.. We can only hope that radical muslim fundementalists would learn Falun Dafa too. You are showing your true colours let stop here now please. When people hear and see the truth like Lee on this blog…I am happy that one has enough Buddha nature in him to realise that Falun Dafa is good.

  177. specul8r
    July 9th, 2008 at 01:04 | #177

    In a hugh country with a few people here, a few people there practicing your nonsense falun gone and you called that 80 or so countries practicing falun gone. There are everyday householders who have been practicing Kriya yoga all over the world and they have been involving in world peace don’t believe in falun gone at all. It’s a joke. Everybody has buddha nature but not everyone see their buddha nature. Lee doesn’t see his buddha nature and just because he is standing on your side, he doesn’t automatically has enough buddha nature. Stop shallow understanding of Buddhism term and go back to use and stick with your buddha school term because your buddha school is not Buddhism as you and your cult organization said before. Besides, he doesn’t believe any of ‘it’ that you practice and he’s just using your group to his political advancement – anti-communist. It’s nothing to do with spiritual living.

  178. July 9th, 2008 at 01:20 | #178

    For someone who says he practises Buddhism and does not have any attachments then i think you are trying just a wee bit too hard mate.. Buddhism is in chaos and demons and devils are everywhere in your temples. This is something that Shakyamuni said would happen at this time. Why do you not listen to your Teacher? Teachings cannot last for ever; they become distorted over time and used by not so enlightened beings to control and make money off of people.

    Then when society is in such a bad way and morality has sunk to its lowest levels a new enlightened being and teachings come to offer the chance to save people yet again. This is a cycle that happens over and over again. The Buddha FA is a given constant and in that Buddha FA all religions and cultivation ways exist. Buddha FA does not just relate to Shakyamuni’s time or just him, Christ also exists within the Buddha FA. Falun Dafa also exists in the Buddha’s FA.
    You are not doing yourself, your teacher or his teaching’ s any credit at all.

  179. specul8r
    July 9th, 2008 at 01:54 | #179

    Of course you want me to stop because everything was asked couldn’t be answered. I have to expose all these in this blog because I have seen the truly selfish falun gone group which I have tolerated for many years. Here is the article from here: http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2008/6/6/zip.html and read the whole article once. I will then pull out the sections to show how much compassion they show from this article.

    Do Not Get Lost When Facing the Big Disaster

    (Clearwisdom.net) Following the Sichuan earthquake, many practitioners have maintained a rational mindset and are able to understand this from the Fa’s perspective. On the one hand, practitioners conform to the ways of everyday people by making donations. On the other hand, practitioners are more diligent in clarifying the truth and saving sentient beings.

    However, a few practitioners’ thoughts have fluttered, and some human notions have resurfaced. For example, some practitioners were emotionally affected by the aftermath of the earthquake and were crying while watching the sad scenes on television. Some practitioners were actively involved in donation activities. When they met acquaintances they immediately asked, “Have you donated? How much have you donated?” They forgot their responsibility of saving people. Some practitioners hold a hidden excitement within, guessing that the end of Fa-rectification may be coming soon. A few practitioners spend more time watching TV to follow the news, and others speak of things at too high a level when clarifying the truth.

    Although we have gone through a lot in the past years and should have sufficiently matured facing these things, when things happen, sometimes our human notions still surface. Emotions in the human realm still affect us. The key here is our basis for looking at these things. We must not forget that we are Dafa practitioners walking on a divine path and can never be swayed from our task of assisting Master in saving sentient beings.

    The old forces have arranged many things, such as the Sichuan earthquake, wars in the Middle East, “9/11” and the tsunami. Although the old forces’ highest-level beings have been eliminated, before the Fa completely rectifies the human world, the old forces’ mechanisms are still operating. Dafa practitioners should be clear on this.

    The hot topics regarding the earthquake in China made me aware of everyday people’s zeal for donations, as well of the CCP’s propaganda and further incitement that made people fearful and helpless. Human beings are so fragile. I realized that saving sentient beings is now even more urgent. We should increase truth-clarifying efforts in the process, while cultivating ourselves well.

    Based on the many disasters in recent years, we have realized that the purpose of the old forces’ arrangements was to eliminate many human beings and areas with heavy karma. But most importantly, it was to test how many human notions practitioners still have, and whether or not this disturbs practitioners, and if they are up to the “standard.” As long as we study the Fa more, Dafa can help us solve the puzzles. We will then understand everything and be able to catch up with the advancement of Fa-rectification.

    ——————– Here’s the section you should pay attention ——————

    The old forces have arranged many things, such as the Sichuan earthquake, wars in the Middle East, “9/11” and the tsunami. Although the old forces’ highest-level beings have been eliminated, before the Fa completely rectifies the human world, the old forces’ mechanisms are still operating. Dafa practitioners should be clear on this.

    Based on the many disasters in recent years, we have realized that the purpose of the old forces’ arrangements was to eliminate many human beings and areas with heavy karma. But most importantly, it was to test how many human notions practitioners still have, and whether or not this disturbs practitioners, and if they are up to the “standard.” As long as we study the Fa more, Dafa can help us solve the puzzles. We will then understand everything and be able to catch up with the advancement of Fa-rectification.

    —————- end of section —————-

    Did I take out of context?

    Together with the images you can find on the internet that says “Heaven destroy CCP” and (“the old forces have arranged many things, such as the Sichuan earthquake”, “the purpose of the old forces’ arrangements was to eliminate many human beings and areas with heavy karma”), you can actually see that “Heaven destroy China and Chinese people”. Don’t you agree? Isn’t that what causes Sharon Stone into trouble when she said about bad karma?

    True compassion do not limit races, religion, rich or poor, and there is no difference between “you” and “me”, and everyone is part of everyone else. That’s the true meaning of ‘Universe’ most of the pure spiritual life is talking about. Falun Gone has misunderstood Universe as the galaxies and brought into wrong directions obviously.

  180. July 9th, 2008 at 02:21 | #180

    Hey that link you sent does not take me to that article but it does take us to all artilces related to very good topics so thanks for that..

    I dontknow who wrote that article.. It could have been one practitoeners view on things . Not sure until i see the real article.

    But i can say that you cannot have compassion if you have human sentimentality and emotions,They are not compassion.Compassion is above the everyday level of human emotions. Real compassion is when you have no human attachments yet care deeply about humanity in a broader and more complete sense. This is just my limited understanding at my level.

    All of humans calamaities are directly caused by the immoral nature that we as a human race have sunk to. Do you honestly think we can keep going on like this behaving disrespectivly of the standard to be good humans? Its not about race,relgion rich or poor why do you even bring that into it? Karma exists and everyone on the planet has it otherwise we would not be here.I cannot see the divine plan no one can only the Gods . But nothing happens by accident.

  181. specul8r
    July 9th, 2008 at 02:27 | #181

    ¿¿¿¿ have stated:

    “For someone who says he practises Buddhism and does not have any attachments then i think you are trying just a wee bit too hard mate.. Buddhism is in chaos and demons and devils are everywhere in your temples. This is something that Shakyamuni said would happen at this time. Why do you not listen to your Teacher? Teachings cannot last for ever; they become distorted over time and used by not so enlightened beings to control and make money off of people.”

    For your information, I don’t practice Buddhism by blindly following those monks and read and memorize scritptures nor do I go to temple to worship statues. I practice studied Sakyamuni’s “Four Noble Truth” and “Noble Eightfold Path” and my practice in Kundalini meditation, Kriya Yoga and Highest Yoga Tantra open my awareness of my environment and my true self (mindfulness). “Buddhism” is not in chaos but when “Buddhism” is involved with profit running, that’s what is in chaos but that doesn’t represent “Buddhism” just because those people shaved their heads and wear saffron robes. Have you heard of “Master of Love and Mercy, Cheng Yen”? She is practicing “Buddhism” by comforting those who are suffering and she helps anyone regardless of race or religion and her nonstop activities to help others even when she wasn’t feeling well have been admired by many in the world. She is the “Mother Theresa” of Buddhism. When you say “Buddhism” is in Chaos, you haven’t truly understand what is true and false “Buddhism” is all about just like you have no clue of what is true and false religion when you are attached to one study only and rely on one source of information. This is not much different from Brain Washing.

  182. July 9th, 2008 at 02:31 | #182

    What you equate with China is not the Ccp. The Ccp is an evil entity that has systematically tried to destroy humanity by killing 80 million Chinese people and now persecuting even more good people Falun Gong whose principles are the very best of humanity -truth compassion and forbearance. The evil entity of the Ccp is a demonic force that has used Chinese people in the party for its own ends… We know there are a lot of good people in the Ccp working to dismantle this evil. And it will happen.

    The Chinese people have been brainwashed for 60 years.They are waking up. You see it plain boils down to this. You cannot persecute and stop people from believing in their Gods Buddha or Dao. It’s a crime against the universe. It will not be tolerated. So the Ccp entity really did not know what they were doing when they decided to persecute Falun Gong. They thought they could eradicate us in 3 months, Yet we are here stronger and on the offensive 9 years later. No group has ever been able to with stand such a brutal persecution from Ccp. Who is helping us? who gives us the faith? Otherwise if it was all garbage and nonsense we would have been extinct long ago.

  183. specul8r
    July 9th, 2008 at 02:34 | #183

    “Hey that link you sent does not take me to that article but it does take us to all artilces”

    Poor soul…even lost in your own world.

  184. specul8r
    July 9th, 2008 at 02:37 | #184

    I am not arguing with you CCP is good or not. I am just showing how evil your falun gone is so OK with the natural disasters strike in China and it’s due to “Heavy Karma”. Your falun gone group has “NO COMPASSION” of human lives even among those are good people who died. Feel sorry about your poor soul.

  185. July 9th, 2008 at 02:38 | #185

    Thats lovely thanks for sharing that with me. Falun Gong is also helping many many milliions of people in the world to become good pople , to make a stance and say no to persecution, torture , to return to morality and justice .WE are unviersal . 80 countries all around the world is universal and all races come to practice FG.

    I am not asking you to practice Falun Gong.I am asking you to support in your heart an end to this genocide of Falun Gong in China. Is that so hard to do?

  186. specul8r
    July 9th, 2008 at 02:53 | #186

    If I have the same evil thought like you, I would think that “it’s ok that those falun gone people are pesecuted because of their bad karma” but I don’t, I am just asking your group to stop the attachment to win over CCP if your true purpose on earth is to “return home”. What you have cause so many innocent people persecuted in China.

    Master Cheng Yen did when she left home and started her life as a nun and work to get her food and shelter. She built her own temple without any support from her rich parents until later time when her mom became disciple of her and donated money to build larger temple and facilities to help suffering. She was still working according to the temple’s schedule even though the temple has large donations by the rich and kind people in Taiwan. What have your master do? Sending people to stir the pots in China and being persecuted while he is living comfortably here. By the way, how did your leader make his living? Did he work and earn his own wages by working?

  187. specul8r
    July 9th, 2008 at 02:58 | #187

    People awaken to realize all those false accusations about China’s crackdown in Tibet
    ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

    TOYAKO, Japan (AFP) – French President Nicolas Sarkozy will attend the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympic Games next month despite an earlier threat to boycott over a crackdown in Tibet, according to a statement.
    ADVERTISEMENT

    Sarkozy told Chinese President Hu Jintao he would go to Beijing during a half-hour meeting on the sidelines of the Group of Eight industrialised nations summit in northern Japan.

    “The president confirmed to the Chinese president that he intends to go to Beijing on August 8 to take part in the opening ceremony of the 29th Olympiad,” a statement issued by Sarkozy’s office here said.

    Sarkozy had threatened to boycott the August 8 ceremony following a Chinese crackdown in Tibet in March that sparked international outrage, leading to speculation that some world leaders might shun the games.

    “The head of state consulted all of his European counterparts and with their agreement will attend the opening ceremony in his double capacity as president of France and as president of the European Union,” the statement said.

    Sarkozy said earlier that his decision on whether or not to attend the ceremony would hinge on progress in talks between China and the Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

    Sarkozy has left open the possibility of holding face-to-face talks with the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, who has met with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and US President George W. Bush.

    China and the Dalai Lama’s representatives held an informal round of talks on May 4 after deadly anti-China riots broke out on March 14 in the Tibetan capital Lhasa. Another round of talks began in Beijing this week.

    The resulting Chinese crackdown triggered international criticism of Beijing’s policies in Tibet, as well as protests in London, Paris and other Western cities that disrupted April’s international Olympic torch relay.

    The protests and Sarkozy’s stance have made France a particular target of an anti-Western backlash in China, with hundreds of people staging protests in May at Chinese outlets of French retail giant Carrefour.

    China’s ambassador to France on Tuesday warned of “serious consequences” to Sino-French relations if Sarkozy met the Dalai Lama during his visit to France next month.

    During his meeting with Hu, Sarkozy expressed France’s desire to boost its strategic partnership with China “in all its dimensions” and reiterated French support for Beijing following a devastating earthquake in May.

  188. July 9th, 2008 at 03:02 | #188

    Yes Mr Li did work up until he began to teach and spread the Fa in China between 1992-94. Then he withdrew fo 2 years then went overseas to teach and spread the FA. All of eh books CD and learning tapes can be downloaded for free off the internet.

    If your practise today was deemed a criminal acivity by your government and was slandered as being an evil xxxx would you also not peacfully go about trying to tell the truth about it? Thats all we are doing… The Chinese have been deceived and are not alowed to practice any true genuine religion at all. This is everyone fundemtnal right. A world without religion is a living hell.The Christians spoke up for their religion and did not stop pracitising under the face of eveil persecution, neither do we

  189. July 9th, 2008 at 03:04 | #189

    “China’s ambassador to France on Tuesday warned of “serious consequences” to Sino-French relations if Sarkozy met the Dalai Lama during his visit to France next month.”

    This is threat to the French re trade and other threats made when they start a war . The world is scared of communist power. Falun Gong is not.

  190. KungFuPanda
    July 9th, 2008 at 04:18 | #190

    Re Lee,

    “what you try to convince me here? flg is bad?”
    — That’s right, but not really. Practice is good. However, people shouldn’t be blind folded about the allegations by http://www.bible.ca/falun-gong-falun-dafa-zhuan-falun.htm, as well as the issues presented by American Humanist Association, and Rick A. Ross Institute. The inhuman indicant that happened in Flushing, NYC was a disgrace to Chinese, having the same origin as mine, looks almost the same as me.

    — And I hate to see that whoever doesn’t agree with flg, will be slammed with communist title. Do they know that besides black and white, there are millions other colors?

    “communist is good? “
    — Not the subject here, I’m sure there’re many online discussion web sites that focus on that.

    “let’s get rid of flg?”
    — You’re brilliant!

    “in the eyes of communist, flg is the “evil cult’ and the most dangerous enemy, in the eyes of flg followers, flg is the most precious thing in life so they won’t give it up no matter what. “
    — I like diligent people. However, I don’t like lie, inhuman, intolerant. If you really hate CCP, then fight like a nobleman. You don’t want to side with them. There are many other democratic movement organizations that would love you on board. I know CDJP(cdjp.org) maybe a good choice.

    “In my eyes, since I don’t like communist, anyone who oppose them is my friend.”
    — I don’t think so. The Lesser of Two Evils is still not my friend.

    “Look, the communist have been trying to get rid of flg for many years and failed, they the fire starter, those links you sent wouldn’t exist if communist didn’t advertised the world about flg, we wouldn’t see flg on the street if communist didn’t get too extreme with the persecution, now if you don’t like to see flg’s activities and fed up, maybe you should either join the communist with their effort, or tell the communist to make peace, so flg won’t have any good reasons to get into “politics” and we may no longer see them on the street.”
    — Again, I’m no black, nor white. Nobody so far has been able to push me to either side. The links that I presented are credible. I’m willing to trust them then flg.

    “after all, it’s the communist started all the trouble for you, me, and flg.”
    — That doesn’t give them the right to lie. Fight like a nobleman.

    “okay, let’s talk about the reality, flg is legal here, the last time I checked it is legal to practice everywhere except china, as matter fact, the congress pass a resolution to protects them, don’t tell me the congressmen are all idiots and would want to come up with a law to protect ‘evil cults.’ There must be good reasons. on the other hand, we all know communist is not welcomed in the states and flg opposes communist, so if you are in the state, think before choose your sides.”
    — Well, I have no side. I’m independent. My common sense is not bind by any mind washing machine.

    “You know about flg’s quitting ccp activities right? flg’s message is simple, “if you not happy about the government, just quit it”, first of all, they got some good reasons, second, they know there plenty people not happy in china, third, they make the procedure simple and you don’t need to join them, think about it, it sounds ridiculous, but it’s really genius, simple yet effective. “
    — Yes I know that. But people don’t have to go by that route. I heard Wei JingShen had similar thing.

    “We all know communist forces everyone swears to serve them unconditionally in china since elementary school,”
    — That’s a piece of joke. Do you really believe people are abide to it? Otherwise, everybody is a CCP member.

    “I know I did and now I quit, although I wasn’t a member, but just announce that I fed up with the communist makes me feel good, and you know what, flg helped me with that.”
    — If you were not CCP member, how do you quit? That’s FLG’s logic. You don’t need flg to help you to show your discontent with CCP. You can do it anywhere, such as NYC subway station, or your personal website, maybe a bumper sticker will help too. Frankly speaking, your logic would not help your cause.

    “Back to my point, weather you like it or not, the situation right now is communist is crumbling down with troubles all over, but flg is gaining the momentum. and for those who are sicken tired of the communist party in china, flg is their hope.”
    — I don’t think “communist is crumbling down”. Look at the sky high nationalism in China. And I don’t think “flg is gaining the momentum”. People used to support it just like you. However, people are getting a bitter taste of it in Flushing, NYC. I’d never assume that flg is their hope. I believe the separation of state and church, here refer to flg, cause it’s a religious group. Then lets us know who is going govern the country? Rather, I’d like to see KMD marry CCP might the best choice. Don’t tell me that they killed millions, tell me which major nation hasn’t killed millions.

    “For the sake of argument and come back to the bullhorn, I would have to disagree flg is disrupting earthquake relief. why? because I asked them about it and they denied the intention of disrupting, so I believed them. simple as that.”
    — You’ve just asked the defendant. Have you talked to the other side? It wouldn’t be a fair trail if you simply talk to one side.

    “Last thing, just curious, can you show me just one picture with flg’ sign saying:” tian mie zhong guo”?”
    — I’ve already posted the link and comments before. Go look for it.

    — My last common sense. If CCP is really that bad as you described, the US should not have normal relationship with China. And should be still supporting the guerrilla training camp in Colorado for Tibetan Freedom fighters, by the way, they are all “peaceful monks”. Also, tell all the businesses to stop building factories in China. Maybe they should be nuked, which isn’t much different than the earthquake. Wait a minute. Am I talking to extremist here?

  191. July 12th, 2008 at 04:57 | #191

    FALUN DAFA HAO!!!!!!

  192. physicall
    July 12th, 2008 at 19:45 | #192

    It comes down to whether or not Falun Gong is good…

  193. KungFuPanda
    July 13th, 2008 at 01:46 | #193

    No wonder the oldest and largest humanist organization, American Humanist Association, call Falun Gong “incompatible with our dedication to reason and science”

  194. specul8r
    July 13th, 2008 at 03:59 | #194

    All the cult organizations will always claim themselves as legitimate religions and the others are all corrupted. Religions are created by men and always has an element of segregation of mine vs yours and which is not a whole or as “holy”. Only when you remove all these segregation of “me” and “you” element, then you will become ‘holy’. That’s the reason why the wars are not stoppable regardless of all these world religions efforts. It’s the same with I am American, I am French, I am Chinese, I am Communist, I am Capitalist, I am Catholic, I am Buddhist, I am Christian. ‘I am’ is the part that is segregated element. Human has created this labeling to segregate to become chaos and conflicts. Conflicts cause suffering and suffering is the fandamental truth taught by Sakyamuni.

  195. July 13th, 2008 at 05:02 | #195

    What is so hard to understand that the teachings of a saviour, Tathagatta Buddha or Tao will not last for ever without being contaminated by human thought ego and attachments. The teachings can only last 6 generations at the most unless you have access to exactly what these saviours taught.2000 and 2500 years on that would be extremely difficult and also remmeber that mans mind was a lot simpler in those days. The mind is not today. WE had to be taught these teachings from the previous saviours in order enlighten to what is today.Its called evolution…

    I agree only in this complicated envirnoment with our wars, disgreements and immoral lifestyles can we as cultivaters truely rid ourselves of these attachments. and we can only do that thru suffering and paying off our karma at the same time. The cause of all suffering is karma.

    The people also thought Buddha Shakyamuni was a fraud and same with Jesus, the people even crucified him in their ignorance. The same ignorance you are showing to day by declaring that Falun Gong is a xxxx.

  196. July 13th, 2008 at 05:08 | #196

    Kungfupanda said
    “No wonder the oldest and largest humanist organization, American Humanist Association, call Falun Gong “incompatible with our dedication to reason and science”

    People of faith and true believers all say

    All atheists and superstisous scientific groups have an incompatiblity with any spiritual path or religion.

    Although when top scienctist reach the edge of their physical proof athey also begin to cal it God, Love creation.

  197. KungFuPanda
    July 13th, 2008 at 07:43 | #197

    Re Jana,

    “All atheists and superstisous scientific groups have an incompatiblity with any spiritual path or religion.”
    — That should not interfere with “reasoning”, which is the foundation of free society.

    “Although when top scienctist reach the edge of their physical proof athey also begin to cal it God, Love creation.”
    — That’s misleading. Or I should say propaganda. Not all “top scientist …” And even when they do call it God. do you know which God they refer too?

    Just wondering where did you learned “A world without religion is a living hell”?

    And that religion is what? Falun Dafa? or Christian? or both? or any other religion?

    Frankly speaking, I don’t think the world will be better off with Falun Dafa along, when all the allegations as well as other religions out there. Also, with Falun Dafa’s “intolerant positions”, how can it peacefully co-exist with other religions on the earth?

    I know you like religious freedom. So, lets review what’s religious freedom.
    1. Without oppression, believe, worship and witness (or practice freedom from belief, worship and witness), as you wish;
    2. Change your beliefs or your religion; and/or
    3. Associate with others to express your beliefs.
    (Don’t give me any credit on that. I got it from http://www.religioustolerance.org/)
    I assume you like the first one. But there are laws that are designed to protect others from their safety, freedom. I guess its not easy to balance out. Then how about the second and the third?

    I know some FLGs are smart and kind, with high IQ. However, their reasoning capability will be adversely affected by the religious beliefs. It wouldn’t help when they talk to their customers or managers. I’d like to encourage them to look around, be a free man, think out side of Falun Dafa.

    Let me conclude this session with Mahatma Gandhi’s words:
    “The need of the moment is not one religion, but mutual respect and tolerance of the devotees of the different religions.”

  198. July 14th, 2008 at 03:46 | #198

    RE KungfuPanda,

    1. That should not interfere with “reasoning”, which is the foundation of free society.
    A. rational belief is from a true religion which I agree is hard to find in today world. Its only since religions have become unfashionable thru this superstitious bully called science that our morality has hit the skids and the earth is on the eve of destruction … oh yes and thats according to materialist scientists who have no idea what to do next….

    2. That’s misleading. Or I should say propaganda. Not all “top scientist …” And even when they do call it God. do you know which God they refer too?
    A. Where did I say ALL top scientists? I classify top scientists who have truly made the discoveries of what this universe is made up of. Not materialist scientists who talk about environment etc and cannot find any cures for the modern diseases even today. I ‘m talking about scientists who have discovered a very limited understanding of the universe .. these top scientists are now calling it God or love. Please try to not to miscue my words to save valuable time please.

    3. Just wondering where did you learned “A world without religion is a living hell”?
    A. Look at all the countries who don’t have a strong true faith in their God. Buddha or Dao.. Africa for one….

    4. And that religion is what? Falun Dafa? or Christian? or both? or any other religion?
    A. Yes any religion as long as they truly believe and become better people then our world will improve. Imagine of we had politicians, big business , media that did not lie? And thats just one example.

    5. Also, with Falun Dafa’s “intolerant positions”, how can it peacefully co-exist with other religions on the earth?
    A. Why do you say we are intolerant of other religions? I have not said Christianity or any other religions are bad. I continually say Gods Buddhas and Daos, and also say that the whole world is in a huge moral dilemma when it cannot rationally see that persecution torture of any people including Falun Dafa is wrong and should stop immediately. How does your rational scientific thinking account for this Genocide?

    6. I assume you like the first one. But there are laws that are designed to protect others from their safety, freedom. I guess its not easy to balance out. Then how about the second and the third?
    A. We associate with others all of the time and express our beliefs . How do you think we have managed to alert the world and have many politicians and VIPs speak out for us. I was a Christian and a Buddhist in the most shallow way before I found Falun Dafa. I can change if I wish to, leave if I wish too. I choose not too because for once I have found something that makes sense; is not blind belief but a rational way of answering all the questions that I have asked and that other religions could not. That’s doesnt mean that others in their religions can not find these answers it simply means that I could not.

    7. I’d like to encourage them to look around, be a free man, think out side of Falun Dafa.
    A. What do you think we have been doing all our lives? Watching TV?Twiddling our thumbs? I have been searching all my life . My earliest memory was wondering why I back here on earth again? I was depressed for the first 6 months of my life, my mother confirms this. I left Sunday school at the age of 6 because the nuns/priests could not answer my intelligent questions about Jesus. There is nothing in this world that would interest me anymore. Falun Dafa is so immense and all encompassing . What you have surmised or read is merely surface level at your own limited critical understanding. Quantum physics is open ended , they can keep on discovering more as their own minds expand, So it is like with Falun Dafa. If you don’t have the heart to learn you will never understand it.. end of story.

    8. “The need of the moment is not one religion, but mutual respect and tolerance of the devotees of the different religions.”
    A. I believe that I have given full support of that statement many times over. We all have different Gods Buddha’s and Dao’s in each race of people. That why its silly to say mines right yours is wrong…Killing in the name of your God will send you to hell and regimes who take power over the people thru the barrel of a Gun will not survive and will also go to the gate of no life…

    Rational higher thinking – Falun Dafa. Remember this, we are completely non violent, we embody the tenets truth compassion and tolerance and if more Govts could achieve this for their people and more people could achieve this for themselves then it would be a much more peaceful harmonious world to live in.

  199. mikey
    July 15th, 2008 at 05:08 | #199

    i see every day that their is way to many hooker’s in flushing ny. and they ask 2 grand en hr are you people crazy. why here in usa. i dont want it here.

  200. specul8r
    July 15th, 2008 at 06:06 | #200

    “The teachings can only last 6 generations at the most unless you have access to exactly what these saviours taught.2000 and 2500 years on that would be extremely difficult and also remmeber that mans mind was a lot simpler in those days. The mind is not today. WE had to be taught these teachings from the previous saviours in order enlighten to what is today.Its called evolution…”

    The people also thought Buddha Shakyamuni was a fraud and same with Jesus, the people even crucified him in their ignorance. The same ignorance you are showing to day by declaring that Falun Gong is a xxxx.”

    Who in the authority said that the teachings can only last 6 generations at the most? What is generations are you talking about? Who are you referring to when you said “The people thought Buddha Shakyamuni was a fraud …” and show me the reference where you get that information. How much do you know about Jesus and how much intimately do you know about his biography? Why do you want to compare Buddha Sakyamuni and Jesus to your master? Buddha Sakyamuni and Jesus is much closer than Buddha Sakyamuni/Jesus as compare to your master. Buddha Sakyamuni and Jesus can heal the sickness regardless of karma/sin because they can take on their karma/sin but not your master. Sorry! not in this lifetime.

  201. specul8r
    July 15th, 2008 at 06:36 | #201

    4. And that religion is what? Falun Dafa? or Christian? or both? or any other religion?
    A. Yes any religion as long as they truly believe and become better people then our world will improve. Imagine of we had politicians, big business , media that did not lie? And thats just one example.

    There are so many evidence pointing to the media of Falun Gone with smearing tactics like those western media and you call that not lie? You approach some of the western politicians to get your agenda across; to deface China. Check out the website: anticnn.com and see for yourself which country’s police brutality pictures are being taken from.

  202. specul8r
    July 15th, 2008 at 07:01 | #202

    I was a Christian and a Buddhist in the most shallow way before I found Falun Dafa. I can change if I wish to, leave if I wish too. I choose not too because for once I have found something that makes sense; is not blind belief but a rational way of answering all the questions that I have asked and that other religions could not. That’s doesnt mean that others in their religions can not find these answers it simply means that I could not.

    Aha. You were not devoted Christian nor devoted Buddhist. You were just browsing and you found Falun Dafa because the guy was so charismatic in speech (I have seen them all) and knows how to BS and you fall for it. Sure, when you don’t have enough base and someone come along and criticize that your religion is not good and corrupted, and you should converted to mine with all these copies from other religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Yoga, Christian, Meditation, old civilizations) and combined and rolled them into one called ‘Falun Gone’. Without that much reading and your wisdom eye opened, you just fall for the beautiful paintings painted by your deluded master and believe that’s the heaven must look like. Sure Sure. That’s the way to reach your heaven.

  203. July 15th, 2008 at 09:28 | #203

    So you admit to there being a Christian religion that is valid and a Buddhist religion that is valid but have no tolerance for remerging ancient and recent paths.. Now you are showing your true colours Like i said you would have crucified Jesus and persecuted Buddha shakyamuni in their days.

  204. KungFuPanda
    July 16th, 2008 at 03:28 | #204

    Why Falun gong followers go to Capital Hill to protest every year? Besides propaganda, getting more money from China haters, what else do they want? Do they want US to go to war with China? Or do they want US to nuke them?

  205. July 16th, 2008 at 03:46 | #205

    Why are you so violent and unable to understand this one statement-

    The persecution labelled as a Genocide from the UN of the peaceful Falun Gong must stop NOW!!

    Thats all we want…. if you cannot understand this statement without accsuing us of all other motives when clearly there is none then you have lost this discussion completely..PLease become rationale. What the Ccp has told you about us for years is wrong . The lied, they like to target a group and instill hatred against them so that the spotlight is off them and their crimes against the Chinese people. Hitler and other brtual regimes and dictaters use this tactic to keep the population from rising up to over throw them…Why doesn’t the Ccp want democracy? I presume you are living in US or some other democratic nation?. Do you like living with freedom of thought speech and freedom to practise your culture and religion etc???

  206. KungFuPanda
    July 16th, 2008 at 04:16 | #206

    Re Jana #198

    1. That should not interfere with “reasoning”, which is the foundation of free society.
    rational belief is from a true religion which I agree is hard to find in today world. Its only since religions have become unfashionable thru this superstitious bully called science that our morality has hit the skids and the earth is on the eve of destruction … oh yes and thats according to materialist scientists who have no idea what to do next….

    — I like your franklyness about true religion. But is it all the religions, including Falun Dafa, claim that their religion is genuine? With the fundamental difference between religious groups, how do people achieve rational thinking that’s acceptable by everybody?

    — Science is not bully, and not superstitious as you stated. That’s what I make a living. I believe that’s true to a lot of people, including some Falun Dafa followers who may still work in big corporations doing all sorts of scientific experiment. So as to put food on the table for their family. In addition, the world is getting better. With globalization, more and more people are getting to know each other. When I was young, even the neighboring villages don’t have the exact same culture. And the culture difference was huge between rural area and big city. Now, with telephone, television, road, railroad, airplane, as well as internet lately, people are getting to know each other better, and the culture is rapidly melting.

    — The human moral is going nowhere but high. Think about this, blanket bomb a city was norm during the world war II. Now, nobody dare to do it again, and somebody even invented precision monition so that fewer civilian can be harmed during a war.

    — I believe that majority people are good, from their heart. I witnessed dearly through the relief efforts for the Sichuan devastating earthquake victims. Even the Dalai Lame offered his official condolences to victims. Comparing to Dalai Lama, Christians, or other faith groups, as well as those who may not have a religion; my conclusion is quite obvious that Falun Dafa is full of hatred, the worst thing in the world. I can hardly blame each individual, it is the true believe that drove people so inhuman. I know you were Christian, like many others, who cherish human live. I don’t understand why you want to mingle with Falun Dafa, defend those who don’t care about human sufferings? One of the three corner stone of Falun Dafa is compassion. How does that explain what had happened in Flushing, NYC?

    2. That’s misleading. Or I should say propaganda. Not all “top scientist …” And even when they do call it God. do you know which God they refer too?
    Where did I say ALL top scientists?

    — It’s true that you didn’t put “all” there, but I prefer “when some top scientist…” is more honest than “when top scientist…”

    I classify top scientists who have truly made the discoveries of what this universe is made up of.

    — I don’t call that kind of person as scientist, which many help human’s spiritual live, but that’s about it. For those who don’t have a religion, that means nothing.

    Not materialist scientists who talk about environment etc and cannot find any cures for the modern diseases even today. I ‘m talking about scientists who have discovered a very limited understanding of the universe. These top scientists are now calling it God or love. Please try to not to miscue my words to save valuable time please.

    — That’s what I called scientists, who have invented many many good things that have improved human life. Count the average live expectancy, as well as infant mortality rate (IMR). Don’t you agree that they are also very fundamental to human rights? So, when you get sick, where do you go to?

    3. Just wondering where did you learned “A world without religion is a living hell”?
    Look at all the countries who don’t have a strong true faith in their God. Buddha or Dao.. Africa for one….

    — To be frank, I don’t have a religion at the moment. But I never believe I’m having a life like hell. I have religious friends, as well as none-religious friends. I pay tax, raise my family, help others who are in need, respect the dead as well as the law, no matter I agree or not. On the contrary, a friend of mine had his family turned up side down by this “intolerant” Falun Dafa religion, almost destroy his family. Anyway, there’s a good discussion about “A world without religion” at http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-philosophy/96436-world-without-religion.html

    4. And that religion is what? Falun Dafa? or Christian? or both? or any other religion?
    Yes any religion as long as they truly believe and become better people then our world will improve.

    — But is it that all the major wars were also caused by religion?

    Imagine of we had politicians, big business, media that did not lie? And thats just one example.

    — That’s true. But again, nothing is perfect. So far I haven’t find any perfect world, except the heaven. That’s a nice place. Anybody care to go there first?
    Wait a minute, did communist claim the same? And thus kicked KMD out of mainland? Hum, people are so simple.

    5. Also, with Falun Dafa’s “intolerant positions”, how can it peacefully co-exist with other religions on the earth?
    Why do you say we are intolerant of other religions? I have not said Christianity or any other religions are bad. I continually say Gods Buddhas and Daos, and also say that the whole world is in a huge moral dilemma when it cannot rationally see that persecution torture of any people including Falun Dafa is wrong and should stop immediately. How does your rational scientific thinking account for this Genocide?

    — You’re rational on that. But that doesn’t mean Falun Dafa isn’t. Otherwise, American Humanist Association would be very happy to endorse it. I too hate senseless persecution, torture, as well as genocide. But I still have a very big question mark circling in my head. WHY? I know that you’re smart, have you got a chance to check out other sources? It wouldn’t be a good judgment if you only talk to one side. BTW, have any of you Falun Gong friends told you why it is banned in China? Did anybody mentioned that they besiege the press, besiege the TV Co., crack down the press by out numbered followers? Or did you heard about it and simply laughed and forget about it.

    6. I assume you like the first one. But there are laws that are designed to protect others from their safety, freedom. I guess its not easy to balance out. Then how about the second and the third?
    We associate with others all of the time and express our beliefs . How do you think we have managed to alert the world and have many politicians and VIPs speak out for us. I was a Christian and a Buddhist in the most shallow way before I found Falun Dafa. I can change if I wish to, leave if I wish too. I choose not too because for once I have found something that makes sense; is not blind belief but a rational way of answering all the questions that I have asked and that other religions could not. That’s doesnt mean that others in their religions can not find these answers it simply means that I could not.

    — I’m glad that you’re free. How about other Falun Dafa followers? Care to share your experience how you get converted from Christian to Falun Dafa?

    7. I’d like to encourage them to look around, be a free man, think out side of Falun Dafa.
    What do you think we have been doing all our lives? Watching TV?Twiddling our thumbs? I have been searching all my life . My earliest memory was wondering why I back here on earth again? I was depressed for the first 6 months of my life, my mother confirms this. I left Sunday school at the age of 6 because the nuns/priests could not answer my intelligent questions about Jesus. There is nothing in this world that would interest me anymore. Falun Dafa is so immense and all encompassing . What you have surmised or read is merely surface level at your own limited critical understanding. Quantum physics is open ended , they can keep on discovering more as their own minds expand, So it is like with Falun Dafa. If you don’t have the heart to learn you will never understand it.. end of story.

    — Frankly speaking, Falun Dafa is much more controversial than your previous faith. You just associated yourself with a man made Eastern God that’s under fifty year old of history. I know you will argue that it is from Buddha and Dao. However, that Eastern God has changed it a lot, becomes too much political, which I haven’t seen in either Buddha’s or Dao’s history. They all focus self-improving, not blame others.

    8. “The need of the moment is not one religion, but mutual respect and tolerance of the devotees of the different religions.”
    I believe that I have given full support of that statement many times over. We all have different Gods Buddha’s and Dao’s in each race of people. That why its silly to say mines right yours is wrong…Killing in the name of your God will send you to hell and regimes who take power over the people thru the barrel of a Gun will not survive and will also go to the gate of no life…

    — I’m glad that we can get consensuses on that. I hate killing too. That being said, I also hate spreading hatred with lies. I know some people are sensitive to, or even hate CCP. But it will do no good to promote the cause, since people simply can’t trust it. When you google “Falun bait and switch”, you will find that sentiment too. Just like myself, sooner or later, more and more will realize the deceptive nature of this Eastern religion.

    — You’re from the West. I bet you have friends or family members who may be Christian. As an expert on Falun Dafa, how do you explain “Falun Dafa denies Jesus is the son of God”.

    Rational higher thinking – Falun Dafa. Remember this, we are completely non violent, we embody the tenets truth compassion and tolerance and if more Govts could achieve this for their people and more people could achieve this for themselves then it would be a much more peaceful harmonious world to live in.

    — Almost all the religions claim that their thinking is the greatest or perfect. However, from the information I can gather, Falun Dafa’s teaching rejects anything that’s critical to it. Without critical thinking, how do people achieve rational higher thinking? By the way, is it sounds the same that communism doesn’t accept critics?

    — Without rational reasoning and science, how can Falun Gong win court case? As Quebec Superior Court Justice Jeannine Rousseau wrote in a decision for a civil defamation case brought against Les Presses Chinoises by 232 Falun Gong practitioners. The court stated that there was insufficient evidence that the journal had defamed the practitioners. In paragraph 39 of her judgement, she stated that Falun Gong’s teachings includes rejection of science and promise of supernatural powers. In paragraph 40, she added that Falun Gong was a controversial movement which does not accept criticism.
    http://static.wikipedia.org/new/wikipedia/en/articles/f/a/l/Falun_Gong_9fb1.html

    — I know that Falun Dafa claims no violent. But that doesn’t clear my concerns about the allegations, such as “bait and switch” tactics for new converts. In addition, I especially concerned about the super natural power that’s been preached to children. I know Christian liks children. Do you want that happens to children?

  207. KungFuPanda
    July 16th, 2008 at 05:23 | #207

    Re Jana #205

    No, I’m not violent. In fact, I’m pretty rational. No, I still don’t understand your statement “The persecution labelled as a Genocide from the UN of the peaceful Falun Gong must stop NOW!!”
    Please post a link of UN regarding genocide.

    If you want China to stop, why don’t you go to UN? Why do you go to US? Why don’t you go to China? If the war is not what you want, so you want a sanction or what? Do you think China will not respond? Do you think it’s a good idea to risk US’s interest for the Eastern religion’s interest? I know you’re talking about human rights, but do you think US is doing nothing about human rights? I think US has being doing it’s part about the human rights in China. It doesn’t need you to get more confused.

    “What the Ccp has told you about us for years is wrong.”
    — That’s pointless speculation, by the time that Falun gong was banned in China, I was swamped by CNN and BBC, as well as the mighty internet. CCP had told me a lot of things, so do CNN and BBC.

    “The lied, they like to target a group and instill hatred against them”
    — Is it what you guys are going to do in Capital Hill?

    “Hitler and other brtual regimes and dictaters use this tactic to keep the population from rising up to over throw them… Why doesn’t the Ccp want democracy? ”
    So you want to over throw the ruling government? Tell me if that’s what you want?

    “Do you like living with freedom of thought speech and freedom to practise your culture and religion etc???”
    — You’re absolutely right. But I also hate lies. I hate people get hurt under the guise of freedom of speech and religious practice.

  208. specul8r
    July 16th, 2008 at 05:59 | #208

    To Jana:
    “So you admit to there being a Christian religion that is valid and a Buddhist religion that is valid but have no tolerance for remerging ancient and recent paths.. Now you are showing your true colours Like i said you would have crucified Jesus and persecuted Buddha shakyamuni in their days”

    Keep your facts straight. Stop twisting something I didn’t say. I have never say that I would have crucified Jesus nor persecuted Buddha Shakyamuni in their days. It’s your twisted saying that Buddha Shakyamuni was persecuted without any proof. As always, you want to twist things to make your point and make others to believe you are saying the truth. Who is persecuting Buddhism? Let’s see the facts.

    Here’s the statement from your deluded master: “After Sakyamuni left this world, Brahmanism and Buddhism battled. These two religions later merged into one, called Hinduism. Buddhism no longer exists in India today as a result of this.” (http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/flg_1.htm)

    What a joke~. See the definition of Hinduism from wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

    It’s the oldest religion and based on Vedism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedism

    Here’s the account of how Buddhism was destroyed in India; not by Hindu but by Muslim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_India

    In India, Buddhism were driven out not by Hindu in 12th century as your deluded master claimed. It’s by the Muslim burned the Buddhist relics and monasteries. Hinduism accept Buddha as one of their avartar and without fully reading other sacred texts from India, you won’t understand. There are 84,000 different sects but there is only one way to be enlightened and it’s not ‘Falun Gone’ for sure because of your attacks all those Buddhism indiscriminately. Just as I said before, there are beings that are impersonating as “Communist”, “Buddhist”, “Christian” and all these labels are just created by human society, but if you indiscriminately bunch all of them together, then you are stereotyping all the good beings as bad. That’s not the wisdom of the truth. Learn to differentiate the difference, you misguided low level practioner or you will not escape from the Samsara no matter how much “Dharma wheel you are trying to turn”.

  209. July 16th, 2008 at 06:44 | #209

    Hi Kungfupanda,

    Many thanks for your replies I wish we could talk face to face which is much much better but I think we live in different continents so I will do my best to answer your questions and criticisms.

    I hope there can be peace between us ( which is the most important result ) because from what I see you are a good person its just that your ideas about Falun Gong have been distorted due to the Ccp lies and propaganda about Falun Gong.

    Once again I can say no other country has any problem with Falun Gong – only Ccp and the poisoned people who believe them. Many Chinese do know the real story of Falun Gong and quietly pray for an end to this Genocide even they though they don’t speak out for fear of their life being taken. Many lawyers and spirited individuals have also been sent to labor camps and tortured because they have and continue to help the cause of Falun Gong in China.

    1.You said— I like your franklyness about true religion. But is it all the religions, including Falun Dafa, claim that their religion is genuine? With the fundamental difference between religious groups, how do people achieve rational thinking that’s acceptable by everybody?

    I said WE should not focus on the differences but accept that each religion and cultivation way has a specific way and principles to follow. Its like going to University to study and achieve a degree but we can choose all different subjects to achieve that degree. Right? We all know that some lawyers are not very good people now because they cheat the law to get their clients off. They no longer listen to the heart of law or apply the ethics to protecting the law so the profession of lawyers has slid down morally right? They have give the profession of law a bad name..

    So it is with some Monks Priests Minsters ect who have behaved badly in the name of their religion. They have changed the principles of the original teachings to accommodate themselves and their immoral life… Since it has been such a long time ago that Jesus and or Buddha Shakyamuni came to impart and teach these principles so one can say that the original teachings no longer exist and cannot be taught anymore since 1. Buddha Shakyamuni and Jesus did not leave any scriptures behind to remind them . 2.We only have 1000 generations of people interpreting what was told to them generations before..

    Lao Tsu however left a way or the Dao for people to follow. A correct way of honouring the heavens and the earth and each other..Of course no one is really paying attention to these teachings anymore because when CCP took power they abolished all religions destroyed all religious relics’ and scriptures. Luckily Lao Tsu scriptures/poems had already been printed in the west..

    My point being that all these teachings were genuine and valid in their day but owing to the Teacher not being here anymore and to humankinds degenerating morality no one is practising the genuine teachings anymore,.

    You said “Science is not bully, and not superstitious as you stated.”

    I said : Science is a bully when it will not recognise what they cannot materialise and dissect for investigation. Which is all very good for everyday earthly survival but the moment the Govt of the day in the 1800’s wanted the religions to have no power over the people and they urged Darwin to print his nonsense on man coming from apes’
    ( even when Darwin did not feel right about publishing it, as he had serious doubts about his theory) that’s when science was used for political purposes to eliminate the power any King and religion had over everyday people. To this day anytime religion is mentioned to most scientists (expect the top ones who dabble in quantum physics) then we are clubbed down and we are called superstitious.

    God made mankind in his form and since there are approx 5 different races on the planet and they were all made in their Gods form. So that’s why intolerance of other religions is not acceptable at all and was not acceptable to Buddha Jesus or Lao Tsu or Falun Dafa.

    When religions use politics and violence to murder others then is it still a good religion? I am not saying Jesus teachings were not good or Buddha’s ( they were good) but those who do these vile actions in the name of this religion are not true religious believers for they are not listening to their teacher.

    You said “– The human moral is going nowhere but high. Think about this, blanket bomb a city was norm during the world war II. Now, nobody dare to do it again, and somebody even invented precision monition so that fewer civilian can be harmed during a war.”

    I said, when a political power takes power thru the barrel of a gun, rules with violence, makes it a crime to put God above them as the Ccp has done ; when the very best of humanity can be murdered for trying to become better people, would you not say morality has sunk down very badly today. Especially when our Western Govts have appeased the Ccp in order to for trade to occur and They have put money before humans and destroyed the quality of humanity’s conscience even more so?

    Like I said this is persecution not just of the physical but of the humanities conscience, in which we Falun Dafa are doing our very best to save. ..

    You said “my conclusion is quite obvious that Falun Dafa is full of hatred, the worst thing in the world. I can hardly blame each individual, it is the true believe that drove people so inhuman.”

    I said “ Where on earth do you get your information from? Ccp news? WE are not full of hatred but instead compassion for all humanbeings. We did not stop anyone from donating to the earthquake appeal. All we said was that maybe your money might not get there as the ccp is so corrupt. And no one can argue with that one. Even the rich stars in China only donated small amounts to make them look good because they knew. The Ccp had CCTV camera men and journalists onsite before Faun Gong even got there in Flushing to cause the stir that some NY ex Chinese politicians encouraged a mob to stir up trouble, No where in all of US TV media were these films shown . only inside China to stir up hatred against FG before the Olympics to justify calling us terrorists and rounding us up even more…The NY politician is now being investigated and will probably have to stand down. And only Chinese mobsters have been arrested and charged with violence assault and crimes of hate.. NO Falun Gong practitioners have ever been arrested anywhere in the world except inside China; Now why is that? . Infact the police could see clearly who the troublemakers were and had great sympathy and respect for us in our non violent approach.

    You said “— I’m glad that you’re free. How about other Falun Dafa followers? Care to share your experience how you get converted from Christian to Falun Dafa?”

    I was disillusioned that those in power in Christianity were not true believers or practiced what Jesus had asked them to do. I searched for many years and could not have any of my questions answered. Churches were no longer sacred in the west anyway.. So for a few years I stopped looking for the answer and became a not so good person although I did not really know that at the time. I knew I was unhappy..I saw cruelty everywhere dishonesty as i watched the world I knew all around me begin to disintegrate morally and ethically including myself.

    Then one day thru my delusional life someone taught me the exercise s of Falun Gong. I thought it was a way to improve my breathing as I had become a fitness junkie… He did not study the teachings, as he too was a martial arts person and perfecting his fitness.

    He went his way and I found Falun Dafa and thru study found all the answers to my questions I had since the day I was born and so much more. I liked the principles and the way of looking inwards at my problems and solving them with the principles of truth compassion and tolerance. And to this day I have not nor will ever stop because the more I study the more my mind and heart expands and the more compassion I have emerges for all sentient beings. Why else would I do this talking to you if I did not believe that way too many chinese people have been duped into thinking that this is wrong when I know that this is the very best in the world at this time.

    It is simply not true what you have heard or read about Falun Dafa.

    You said “However, that Eastern God has changed it a lot, becomes too much political, which I haven’t seen in either Buddha’s or Dao’s history. They all focus self-improving, not blame others.”

    I said,. You can call us political but we do not want power for ourselves nor do we wish to be elected power and nor would we accept this if it were offered to us. That’s the difference you see. We have our own wish and it is not of this world. We just want the persecution to stop because it is harming humankinds conscience all over the world.

    You said “As an expert on Falun Dafa, how do you explain “Falun Dafa denies Jesus is the son of God”.

    I said . Nowhere have I ever read that Falun Dafa denies Jesus being the son of a God. Never . That is lies made up from cult buster sites or people with bad intentions towards Falun Dafa. If you want to know more about Falun Dafa either go to a genuine site or talk to a genuine Falun Dafa person. No sense going to those who hate Falun Dafa right?

    You said “Almost all the religions claim that their thinking is the greatest or perfect. However, from the information I can gather, Falun Dafa’s teaching rejects anything that’s critical to it. Without critical thinking, how do people achieve rational higher thinking? By the way, is it sounds the same that communism doesn’t accept critics?”

    I said “ You can criticise me or Falun Dafa but if they say we kill our mothers and babies and cut the wheels out of our stomachs or set ourselves on fire etc… then we will protect the good name of Falun Dafa because real people who know us would never say that. Only people with a political agenda, propagandists –Ccp and Ccp collaborators and atheists cult busters would dare to say anything as stupid as that. Like what the Politicians made Darwin do so as to silence the monopoly religions had over people… History repeats itself over and over..

    You said “ I know that Falun Dafa claims no violent. But that doesn’t clear my concerns about the allegations, such as “bait and switch” tactics for new converts. In addition, I especially concerned about the super natural power that’s been preached to children. I know Christian liks children. Do you want that happens to children?”

    I said “ Once again controversy over nothing. Christians accept that Jesus was born thru Immaculate Conception which I also believe and that he could walk on water and change few loaves of bread and fish in many and water into wine. I believe those things. Once again that’s science clubbing us with what they them selves cannot explain.

    There are many unexplained phenomena that cannot be explained by science of today. Way too many. So what ever cannot be explained becomes superstitious and crazy to them. Our science has taken us down a path that limits our explanation of the universe and the entire unexplained phenomenon that we as humans have manifesting concretely in our physical dimension. That’s why I said scientists of today are superstitious because they will not admit to the unexplained phenomena that exists today. They dismiss it because they do not have the tools to investigate it even though it exists in this dimension.
    If you could time travel back to 300 years and say to the people that we will be landing on the moon and have computers and take recordings of everyday life to show back to everyone (films) then they also think you are mad. But if you went back 2000-3000 years ago they would have believed you especially in China.

    Well I think I have answered your many questions and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so. Please put aside what you have read or heard from Ccp about FG. Yes many good people do not understand us but they recognise that we are good people and our principles are very high and they know what the Ccp is doing to us and poisoning the Chinese nation against us is not right either.

    Let there peace between us now.

    Kindest regards Jana

  210. wendy
    July 16th, 2008 at 13:28 | #210

    To Jana,

    I found most falun gong practioners ignore one thing, that is most chinese neither like CCP nor like Falun gong. I am from mailnland, and I dno’t think you really know what chinese in mailland are thinking, on the other hand, I don’t think you really ever study chinese culture. If you have been in china and take some time to study chinese history and culture, you will find how shallow your falun gong media’s artical (chinese version), what a shame falun gong said they represent traditional chinese culture.

    From your comment, it can tell you know nothing about china’s history and current, all your comment is from that “Nine Commentary on CCP” or other articals from Falun gong’s media.

    Time will tell you the truth, let’s wait and see how long falun gong can last. By the way, one thing I can’t understand, why Falun gong’s epoch times changed Master Li’s latest picture, which he last showed in New York’s conference and tell the world he can’t resist getting older and older, and using a old younger one? Where is the truth you falun gong said?

  211. wendy
    July 16th, 2008 at 13:33 | #211

    To Jana,

    One thing I want to correct, when I said all your comments I mean your comments about china, about CCP and Falun gong, all related to china, no other topic.

  212. July 16th, 2008 at 13:46 | #212

    re Wendy I don’t know what you are talking abut re Teachers picture, Sometime i find the way the critics talk so petty .

    Maybe you don’t know this but all of our news comes from Chinese mainlanders and Chinese from HongKong. So please do not have the tenacity to discredit the only uncensored and truthful news coming out of China today.

    The sheer fact that all reporters were guaranteed freedom press during the Olympics and now they don’t.. That when the real terror began inside Tibet Ccp shut down all foreign media and that when no more alive earthquake survivors could be found the Ccp also threw out all the foreign press again to hide the real tragedy of 20 million being displaced and homeless.

    Ccp media has no credibility what so ever except with those in the west they have bribed with lucrative deals do their bidding. We know that all Foreign media inside China have been told that if they wish to stay and work there they cannot mention Falun Gong in a Good way. They abide by that blackmail but they have sold their souls to the devil because they do know infact the whole world knows that the Ccp is murdering good innocent people and you know it too.

    Dont waste any more time.

    We know in the west that all media coming out of china has been censored and released by the United Fronts works department and that nothing is written truthfully . So please do think we do not know whats going on in China. Maybe alot of Chinese do not but we do.

  213. wendy
    July 16th, 2008 at 14:10 | #213

    To Jana,

    about epoch times web sites replace Li Hongzhi’s picture three times at the day New York’s Falun gong conference opened, can’t remember date exactly, seems May 24, 2008.

    After the conference opened, epoch times published an article about it on its web site, also with a picture of Li Hongzhi at that day, from that photo it clearly tell Master Li is getting older and older. But after a while epoch times web site changed this picture for a one after modified using photoshop, and after another while, this web site finally removed Li Hongzhi’s latest picture, using a previous younger one.

    Here is the picture link some one saved for first, and last picture from epoch times.

    http://www.hardkingdom.com/freshrain/viewtopic.php?t=7800

    http://news.epochtimes.com/gb/8/5/25/n2129880.htm

    Another question Jana, do you know the history about Tibet?

  214. wendy
    July 16th, 2008 at 14:14 | #214

    Re Jana,

    You said CCp media has no credibility, I 80% agree with that.
    I am working in a western country’s News Agency now, outside china, can you tell me the credibility of Falun gong’s media?

  215. July 16th, 2008 at 14:34 | #215

    re Wendy

    How do you know that they deliberately printed a younger picture? You are assuming because that’s exactly what you or the Ccp would do. At least he has not had any surgery which everyone and anyone in public life these days has. Some pictures of people are not very flattering. I see pictures of Britney Spears and other so called famous beauties and the press prints pictures of them with out makeup and they dont look so good either. How do i know that the link you sent me was not photo shopped to make Mr Li look older. Like i said i saw him 2007 and i was amazed at how healthy and young he looked, People also say the same about me I am 51 but apparently my daughters friends think i am 35.

    And you know what who cares? I don’t.. so why bring up such petty things…it has nothing to do with cultivation. Its a by product of it but we are not attached to such petty things. .Honestly if you have nothing better to do with your lives and cannot find anything more sinister about FG than that then doesn’t that show you we are all okay..and that what the United front works department says is all lies?

    With regards to Tibet all i know is that the Ccp has one cop to every 20 Tibetans over there and they can’t move or even read any books or scriptures that have not been approved by the Ccp. The sterilise without anaesthetic any Tibetan women who cannot pay bribes and fees for a non sterilisation certificate to exempt them from it. They have brutally tortured and murdered at least one million Tibetans . They have taken them from their grasslands and put them concrete hovels with no running water and heat. They are starving, depressed and the ccp is ethnically cleansing them from the regions so as to full access to their water and power and oil.

    You know the BBC just aired a programme all about it and it the same what they do to the Falun Gong inside China. The world knows what the ccp is ..so do you.. so why do you lie and hide behind them?

  216. wendy
    July 16th, 2008 at 14:48 | #216

    Re Jana,

    Is the final picture on epoch times the real current Li Honzhi or not? why they change it? because I am a normal people on the earth, so I am curious about it, and when I compare those two pictures I can see big difference, who is lying is very clear.

  217. July 16th, 2008 at 14:52 | #217

    Chinese Dissidents Take On
    Beijing Via Media Empire
    Satellite TV Gives
    Falun Gong Loud Voice;
    Crackdown Back Home

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119508926438693540.html?mod=mm_hs_media

    Wall street journal article

    If you cant get it shout and then ill post the whole article for you…

  218. wendy
    July 16th, 2008 at 15:38 | #218

    Here is one from AP
    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003540598

    Jana, who is lying and not admit the truth is very clear here. I am not hiding neither, don’t need to do that.

    Once again, tell you my real feeling for Falun gong, I have very close relatives who are Falun gong practioners, from them I have a chance to know Falun gong and talked with a lot Falun gongers outside china. And from falun gonger’s action, from their’s uplevel commander or you called that coordinater, I can see Falun gong are the same as CCP, I don’t believe neither Falun gong nor CCP, both are liers.

    As to Falun gong’s media, Jana, you should know the rules of being a professional journalist.
    Compare CCP’s media articals and Falun gong’s, they have the same style. Falun gong is funded under CCP, so no surprise they are almost the same in every way.

  219. wendy
    July 16th, 2008 at 17:09 | #219

    Another fact I said Falun gong is liar, Falun gongers in Canada lost a appeal case in Qubec Court, but on theirs web site they said they won it.

    Qubec appeal court’s decision for this case:

    http://www.jugements.qc.ca/php/decision.php?liste=30680586&doc=4001005559471707

    Falun gong’s website’s article about this case:
    http://www.minghui.ca/mh/articles/2008/5/17/178679.html

  220. Wahaha
    July 16th, 2008 at 19:43 | #220

    Wendy,

    On your comment “…I can see Falun gong are the same as CCP, I don’t believe neither Falun gong nor CCP, both are liers….”

    I have two questions :

    1) how much do you believe West reports about Tibet ?

    2) How much do you believe West reports about Middle East ?

    Personally, I think Chinese state media simply doesnt report “bad” stories, hardly can be called lying, at least in last 15 years.

  221. Daniel
    July 16th, 2008 at 20:03 | #221

    How is Falun Gong funded under CCP?

  222. specul8r
    July 17th, 2008 at 06:51 | #222

    To Jana:

    “With regards to Tibet all i know is that the Ccp has one cop to every 20 Tibetans over there and they can’t move or even read any books or scriptures that have not been approved by the Ccp. The sterilise without anaesthetic any Tibetan women who cannot pay bribes and fees for a non sterilisation certificate to exempt them from it. They have brutally tortured and murdered at least one million Tibetans . They have taken them from their grasslands and put them concrete hovels with no running water and heat. They are starving, depressed and the ccp is ethnically cleansing them from the regions so as to full access to their water and power and oil.

    You know the BBC just aired a programme all about it and it the same what they do to the Falun Gong inside China. The world knows what the ccp is ..so do you.. so why do you lie and hide behind them?”

    You cannot answer my question regarding how Buddha Sakyamuni had been persecuted and I showed how your deluded teacher’s false suggestion about Buddhism was driven out of India and Hinduism was the result of merging Brahamanism with Buddhism. (208). Can you trust BBC programme? Visit this site http://www.anti-cnn.com/ and see for yourself how western media had portrayed false news and pictures made to push their propaganda to sabotage Olympics. Are you still going to side with western media knowing that the false news had been spreading against China? Where is your “Truthfulness”? Falun Gone has already showed “Compassion” was not there. Now, “Trhtufulness” is in question. What is next? “Forbearance”? It does not exist either as you can see that “Falun Goners” will not accept any “constructive criticism”. Spiritually false, politically motivated Falun Gone will be exposed and more people will truly understand what “Falun Gone” is.

  223. July 18th, 2008 at 01:39 | #223

    re Specu8

    The BBC programme was filmed on location in Tibet and under cover. They went into Lasa and filmed in the local town squares. They went to the so called housing developments and interviewed the Tibetans who were under house arrest there and starving. The Police were everywhere We saw with our eyes what the police were doing to the Tibetans.
    The world knows what teh Ccp is like and what cruelty of what is going on. The Ccpp suport all communit regimes and juntas all over the world under the
    we have apolicey of not interferring in other countries affairs. They say this so thay can stop us from checking Chinas interntal affairs out which everyone knows are SHOCKING.

    Speculat8ur you are convincing no one other than the other spies that work for the Ccp.. Give it up. In fact you sound like another spy i know Charles Lui alias Bobby Fletcher where he alway says where is Falun Gongs truth.?

    Here is an article that was Media article written about Charles Lui alias Bobby Flethcer as he was exposed for the spy he is.

    http://www.westernstandard.ca/we…cle.php? id=2436

    http:// organharvestinvestigation…dard_040907.htm

    Western Standard (Alberta): Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

    April 9, 2007 Monday
    Final Edition

    SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 24

    LENGTH: 699 words

    HEADLINE: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting,
    China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

    BYLINE: Kevin Steel, Western Standard

    BODY:

    He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone–anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government “harvests” and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong–the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light–and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China’s Communist government. And he’s not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China.

    Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters–in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer–have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone’s time.

    It’s a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as “a bunch of kooky friends making unfounded accusations. It’s just a bunch of blog BS.” As for why he devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting allegations, he says, “My position is that I simply don’t agree with their brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from anti-Communist party, to anti-China, and recently it’s morphed into this anti-Chinese hysteria and that’s going to be hurting people,” he says.
    As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up.

    He doesn’t really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year called “The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre” under the name of Bobby Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the Western Standard’s online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at least ten times that).

    Liu’s actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese
    Government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work
    department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies through their Disinformation Department.

    Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China’s
    macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing.
    “[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair,” says Kilgour. “I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do.”

    Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour’s co-author, David Matas, really doesn’t know what to make of Liu. “I don’t know who he is, but what he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese government,” Matas says.

    The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians–and their staff–prior to the meetings. “The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can’t imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people,” Matas says. “We’re not super-secretive, but you can’t find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we’re meeting with, where and when.” He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he’s ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach.

    I can tell you now that i am no kooky friend of Bobby Flethcer or Charles Lui so whats he hiding behind those lies?? How easy to see ..

  224. July 18th, 2008 at 01:45 | #224

    Wendy Specul8ur and WAHaHa are working in the same writing circle of Bobby Fletcher and Charles Lui . I have come across you lot before..

    Now i have heard everything…. The Epoch Times newspapers is funded by CCP? They are trying to shut us down but they cant. we are in 30 countries and 15 languages..

  225. specul8r
    July 18th, 2008 at 01:58 | #225

    Jana,

    FYI, I don’t belongs to CCP nor any thing to do with China nor Taiwan. I don’t have blind trust to any media, period. The world is full of deceit and you cannot trust everything that you see on TV or newspaper as the only truth. It’s amazing how gullible that you folks are. True that the website that I refer you to is pro-China but it doesn’t make me pro-China. It is so bizarre to accuse me like Charles Liu as a spy. When is your conscience will turn to face the Truth? Your conscience is full of DARK deceitful mind. I feel sorry about your future.

  226. specul8r
    July 18th, 2008 at 02:04 | #226

    Jana,

    Again, when you are desperate and cannot be helped, you should look inward. Your mind is very cloudy and angry. Learn to contemplate your mind rather than trying to throw all these nonsense that I am working in the same writing circle of Bobby Fletcher and Charles Liu. True nature will revel who I am. I don’t know Wendy nor any of the people on this blog. They have their point of views and I have nothing to do with them.

  227. July 18th, 2008 at 02:56 | #227

    So many of the worlds people have chosen to support the illegal and immoral legitimacy of the communist regime and what they have done is hurt the Chinese people and even more so the conscience of our world. What is worrying is that all the appeasement that has been given to Ccp has run out; our Govt’s have nothing left to barter with anymore, so what’s next?

    I have a faith, as you know, i am a Falun Gong practitioner and what i understand is this..It is no longer a battle between Ccp led China and the world but a battle in each of our minds and hearts. There are good people in the Ccp just as there are bad people in our countries too. The good people do not like what is going on and from what I can see have made that choice in their limited power or environment to actively condemn this evil that has spread thru humanities conscience.

    We have insider news that many Ccp members are working hard to dismantle the Ccp from within . So far over 40 million Chinese have resigned from the Ccp and its affiliated orgs. Mostly under changed names but never the less a promise from their heart and conscience which is what counts .

    http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/t/quitting-the-chinese-communist-party/

    http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/canada/ottawa-rally-celebrates-40-million-chinese-quitting-the-communist-party-1045.html David Kilgour was a this recent rally

    http://ninecommentaries.com/

    This is why the Ccp cannot “eradicate” Falun Gong because everything we have done to stop their persecution against truth compassion and forbearance has been done legally, peacefully , morally and with good conscience . No power can stop this..

    What denotes people in today’s world as “good people” is they still have ability to know right from wrong. And in each org, each country, each govt, and each media they are everywhere. This has been my experience. It takes one good person to destroy a thousand evils..We will not lose this battle.

    What will happen during and or after the Olympics? This affair is coming to a close very soon.

    Kindest regards Jana

  228. KungfuPanda
    July 18th, 2008 at 03:00 | #228

    Re Daniel,

    I think Wendy means “Falun Gong founded under CCP” government.
    It’s the kind of typo that I could easily make too.

  229. specul8r
    July 18th, 2008 at 04:39 | #229

    Jana,

    With Falun Gone’s logic, anyone can create a website called “Quit the Falun Gone” and anyone can register to the site as easily reachable to billions but it won’t make sense, will it? Any web application programmers can write commands repeatedly to register names/alias with the site to create sensation of reaching billions. Then, will the 40 millions means anything? It’s only a numbers and unless you have to turn in your CCP certificate or something, how can you use that figure to proof your point? It’s so childish and any kid can think better way. It’s you who still have human thoughts and attachments that won’t give up this thought and must win over is exactly the same reason as all these religious wars around the world causing my religion is better than yours and my leader said if we die, we become the martyr while we get rid of those evil empires. J. Krishnamurti said, all these are the conditioned of the societies and religions and the human are just like animals with conditioned response until we realize and remove these conditions, then we are free from conditions and can realize with your rational mind without any influence from anyone. There is only time when these conditions are removed is when human are faced with hugh natural disaster like SiChuan earthquake and wake up from our animalistic condition and our natural kind heart awaken to help the suffering fellow human beings without any difference in religion, race or country. That’s exactly I am writing why all these religions failed to address the wars. It has nothing to do with CCP or no CCP.

  230. July 18th, 2008 at 05:34 | #230

    Specul8r,,what does “with Faun Gongs logic mean? You see you have lost me with that statement all you do is deny anything that Falun Gong has to say . Ask you self this… Why after all these 9 years plus are we still here? any other group CCP has persecuted is finished in weeks i am sorry to say . Do you hear yourself .. How easy would it be to amass 40 million signatures? are you kidding ? Visit the site and you will see that there are many pledges valdiating their quitting..David Kilgour is a former secretary of state Asia pacific and a MP in Canadas Govt, he would not just show up at any old thing if were not true. He also lobbys for the end to all conflict and genocide.in Sudan . Hes a heavy weight when it comes to authenticity and kudos so please shut up for once, get rid of your communist loyalties and move forward into a better future with out communism for they will come to get you next..

    Nine Years of Campaign of Genocide in China

    On July 20 , 1999 the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) launched a violent persecution of Falun Gong. On July 22nd, nine years will have passed since Falun Gong practitioners’ peaceful resistance began.

    Overview of the CCP’s campaign of genocide against Falun Gong

    The largest religious persecution in the world today – by 1999, almost 100 million people were practicing Falun Gong according to Chinese Government reports at the time.

    While Falun Gong is practiced freely in more than 70 countries, it is subject to egregious and horrific human rights violations in its homeland. These are well-documented by human rights organizations, journalists, witnesses, and scholars. The sheer scale of abuse makes this the largest religious persecution in the world today.

    One explanation for the seemingly irrational campaign is the proclivity of China’s Communist Party, which espouses a doctrine of militant atheism, to fear all groups outside its control–particularly those which subscribe to a different ideology. In 1999, as the largest and fastest growing spiritual group in China, Falun Gong became a target.

    Jiang Zemin alone decided that Falun Gong must be “eliminated”

    Journalists and writers have widely acknowledged that the decision to launch the persecution was inspired by the “fear” and “jealousy” of former-Party head Jiang Zemin alone. According to analyst Willy Lam, Jiang was seen as “using the [persecution of the] mass movement to promote allegiance to himself.” Sources cited by The Washington Post, state that “Jiang Zemin alone decided that Falun Gong must be eliminated,” and “picked what he thought was an easy target.”

    A campaign of extreme torture

    The most prominent feature of the campaign is its systematic use of extreme torture. Torture of Falun Gong adherents has been documented in each of China’s provinces. Torture is meted out by police and public security officials in jails, labour camps, brainwashing centres, detention centres, and police stations in China’s big cities, small towns, and villages.

    Frequent torture techniques include shocking with electric batons, burning with irons, tying the body in painful positions for days, force-feeding saline solutions or other harmful substances through a plastic tube inserted in the nose, ramming bamboo into the fingernails, the use of custom made ‘tiger benches’ to contort the body, among many others. Psychiatric abuses of equal severity have also been documented, for example, in the highly prestigious Columbia Journal of Asian Law. Rape, gang rape, sexual abuses, and sexual torture of Falun Gong practitioners in detention are also widely reported.

    To date, over 63,000 accounts of torture and over 3,000 deaths have been documented. Communist Party-insider estimates of the real figure puts the actual death toll in the tens of thousands. Repression also includes: dismissal from work, expulsion from universities, deprivation of health care and pensions, divorce, homelessness, and numerous other forms of discrimination.

    Hundreds of thousands currently languish in China’s gulag system

    For hundreds of thousands, the most basic reality of the campaign has been long periods of detention in “reform through labour” camps – China’s gulag system. There, practitioners are forced to work up to 20 hours per day, producing toys, Christmas tree lights, chopsticks, soccer balls, etc., for export. Refusal to work may be met with beatings or torture. The regime’s goal is to force practitioners to renounce their spiritual beliefs, and turn in others who are active in exposing the persecution.

    Organ harvesting – “A new form of evil”

    David Kilgour, former Canadian Foreign Minister (Asia-Pacific), and David Matas, a renowned human rights lawyer, conclude in their report, BLOODY HARVEST: Revised Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China (January 2007), that since 2000, Chinese authorities have been using Falun Gong practitioners as a live organ bank. Falun Gong practitioners, they write, are kept in forced labor camps and jails, blood and urine tested, and when an organ is needed for transplant they are killed, their organs taken, and their bodies incinerated.

    The CCP’s campaign of hatred and aggressive propaganda

    As in every 20th century genocide, extreme violence first required dehumanization through aggressive propaganda. A key aspect of the persecution has been to limit, distort, and most often fabricate information about Falun Gong—both inside and outside China.

    Three months after the persecution began, as a way of controlling public opinion, Falun Gong was branded as “xie jiao”, meaning “heterodox teaching”, which with the help of a Western PR firm was translated as “evil cult.” All information discussing Falun Gong positively was also banned. Websites related to the practice were blocked. In a Cultural Revolution throwback, millions of Falun Gong books were seized and publicly burned.

    The Ministry of Propaganda inundated the public with an onslaught of anti-Falun Gong material in radio, newspapers, on TV, and even in poetry, plays, comic books, and exhibitions meant to criminalize the practice. The Party has sought to scandalize, dehumanize, and incite hatred toward Falun Gong, and practitioners are forced to prove the innocence of their peaceful beliefs.

    Falun Gong’s peaceful resistance awakens conscience throughout the world

    The resistance to this violent persecution is awakening peoples’ consciences around the world. The unwavering will Falun Gong practitioners have demonstrated, and the tremendous sacrifices they have made, are what in Chinese is described as “startling the heavens and moving the gods.” While, sadly, the CCP’s persecution of Falun Gong continues to this day, it has failed to destroy the practice, and has only served to fortify the righteous faith of its adherents.

    Highest number of signatures gathered for a human rights issue in Australian history

    Petitions previously tabled in the Australian Parliament regarding the persecution of Falun Gong record the highest number of signatures gathered for a human rights issue in Australian history, and at least 78,000 Australians have signed the global “Millions of Signatures” petition, which calls for an immediate end to the persecution of Falun Gong in China. (http://cipfg.org/global.html). World-wide, over one million people have signed this petition.

    A Senate motion was passed unanimously in support of ending the persecution of Falun Gong in China – June 24th 2008, Australian Senate.

  231. wendy
    July 18th, 2008 at 13:02 | #231

    Thanks kufupanda, that’s my typo, I mean Falun gong is founded in CCP’s china, and Li Hongzhi is the one who born after CCP control china, also this generation is most influenced by CCP.
    If you browsing Falun gong’s web site, the articles’ style make you back to Culture Revolution.

  232. wendy
    July 18th, 2008 at 13:37 | #232

    To Jana,

    Falun gonger are crazy now, if I don’t support Falun gong and I am chinese, then you falun gonger’s say I am a member of CCP or I am a CCP’s spy. Do you know why Falun gong can’t get the support of most Chinese inside of out side China? Take every one as enemy if not stand by Falun gong side .

    Again, I don’t like Falun gong is from early 1995, at that time Falun gong was freely practiced in China, after my parents-in law began practicing it, they are getting weird and weird. At the end of 2000, they followed many other Falun gongers went to Tian An Man squre, because they got the instruction from Li Hongzhi saying they could go to heaven if they were there. Unfortunately they are still living on earth now, and still believe they will go to heaven very soon according to Li Hongzhi’s promise. They were crazy CCP members before practicing Falun gong. I once read all books or info my parents-in law tried pursuade me to take a look at, and I am sure those are all garbages.

    From the point of tranditional chinese culture, go out on the street to ask people quit CCP is not an normal way for a spiritual practice or meditation.

  233. wendy
    July 18th, 2008 at 13:58 | #233

    Jana,
    About epoch times web site replace Li HongZhi’s photo, of course I think it is deliberatly to change, because the final one they put is taken years before, my parents-in-law already have the same one hanging in thier’s room for several years.
    And how do you explain the result of Falun gong’s apeal case in Qubec, Canada? Why Falun gong media told followers they won?
    I agree that Falun goer’s has the right for practice, but not mean I believe it or like it.

  234. wendy
    July 18th, 2008 at 15:35 | #234

    Jana,

    “Wendy Specul8ur and WAHaHa are working in the same writing circle of Bobby Fletcher and Charles Lui . ”
    Because you put me into a group I have no idea about, so I did some search to see who is Charles Lui. It seems you are chasing him everywhere, and if you find anyone has the same thought about Falun gong, then you throw a kind of spy hat on him/her.
    I have my professional job to make a living, it’s the first time ever for me to post on website, and also tell you I never joind any orgnization of CCP once I was in china, but my parents- in-law still did some denoucement for me on epoch times website without my notice, what a ridiculer quit CCP number on epoch times homepage. Who believe and care it? That’s why no western mainstream media care about it.
    As to the book of Zhuan Falun, Do you agree that the english version you read is from original chinese version? Which one is accurate?Does your Master Li Hongzhi can speak english? Oh, he should can, because he is the master. Too many detort in english version Zhuan Falun. That’s why I said at very begining you know too less about chinese culture and history, so can not be a teacher about china’s culture and history in front of chinese, neither about tranditional chinese meditation.
    CCP is dying in china, I believe it will disapear someday but not because of Falun gong nor
    Li Hongzhi’s work, it’s because of most people in china mailand.

  235. Wahaha
    July 18th, 2008 at 15:49 | #235

    “….Specul8ur and WAHaHa are working in the same writing circle of Bobby Fletcher and Charles Lui . ”

    WTF is this ?

    Falun gong suck, you replace CCP with any party, replace the current system with any system, Falun gong still suck !!!, it sucks not only in China, it also suck in America.

    Anyone who went to Flushing personally and saw the show of Falun goners in last two months, know they suck.

    Once in Flushing, New York, I saw a falun goner tried to put an epoch time into hands of two middle age women with shopping bags, and the woman said she didnt want the garbage, the Falun idiot called her “CCP spy”.

    Even CCP collapses today, Falun gong will still be not allowed in China. Let us just wait to see the spring festival parade in New York, see if Falun goners are acccepted to participate in.

  236. specul8r
    July 18th, 2008 at 21:31 | #236

    To Jana:

    You wrote:
    “Ask you self this… Why after all these 9 years plus are we still here? any other group CCP has persecuted is finished in weeks i am sorry to say . Do you hear yourself ..”

    I am not in favor of any persecution and that is violence which I denounce all my life but we have to go into deeper to find out why persecution takes place. Everyone knows what is Karma, it’s Cause and Effect. What is the Cause? “Wrong teaching of Buddhism and change it to Buddha School”. What is the Effect? “Shut down by the government as Cult”. Karma is not something you accumulated that Gods will punish you for the bad Karma. Gods do not punish for bad karma. Natural Disaster is not the result of Gods’ punishments. It’s part of nature and even if you are born into human life, you will face with these sufferings regardless of you have better karma or not. Buddha Sakyamuni do not teach about there is God and he doesn’t want you to believe in God. Why? God is the term invented by human’s thought projection to relive sufferings but it’s like all other illusions and it has no reality. Instead, Buddha Sakyamuni taught people to look inward and contemplate their mind to subtle state and see the “whole movie of life” and do not need to rely on external God to understand what sufferings are about. Using the wrong terms without fully understanding will get you into trouble, so be careful.

    you wrote:
    “David Kilgour is a former secretary of state Asia pacific and a MP in Canadas Govt, he would not just show up at any old thing if were not true. He also lobbys for the end to all conflict and genocide.in Sudan . Hes a heavy weight when it comes to authenticity and kudos so please shut up for once, get rid of your communist loyalties and move forward into a better future with out communism for they will come to get you next..”

    Here’s the excerpt from CRS Report for Congress (Order Code RL33437)
    Updated August 11, 2006
    Thomas Lum
    Specialist in Asian Affairs
    Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Trade Division

    On page CRS-7 and CRS-8,

    American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as the hospital site on two occasions — the first time unannounced and the second
    with the cooperation of PRC officials — and after investigating the facility “found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.”25 Amnesty International spokespersons have stated that the claims of systematic organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners cannot be confirmed or denied.

    For the most part, however, the report does not bring forth new or independently-obtained
    testimony and relies largely upon the making of logical inferences. The authors had
    conducted their investigation in response to a request by the Coalition to Investigate
    the Persecution of the Falun Gong in China (CIPFG), a U.S.-based, non-profit
    organization founded by the Falun Dafa Association in April 2006. In addition to
    interviewing the same former Sujiatun hospital worker as featured in the Epoch
    Times, Kilgour and Matas refer to recordings of telephone conversations provided by
    CIPFG. In these recorded calls that CIPFG members allegedly made from locations
    outside China to PRC hospitals, police bureaus, and detention centers, telephone
    respondents reportedly indicated that organ harvesting of live Falun Gong detainees
    was common. Although many claims and arguments in the Kilgour-Matas report are widely
    accepted by international human rights experts, some of the reports’s key allegations
    appear to be inconsistent with the findings of other investigations.29 The report’s
    conclusions rely heavily upon transcripts of telephone calls in which PRC
    respondents reportedly stated that organs removed from live Falun Gong detainees
    were used for transplants. Some argue that such apparent candor would seem
    unlikely given Chinese government controls over sensitive information, which may
    raise questions about the credibility of the telephone recordings.

    Jana, what part of “Organ Harvesting Propaganda” don’t you understand?

    The Doctor’s wife and the Journalist who started all these should be put on International Crime Court for bringing false information to waste hundreds and thousands of U.S. tax payers money and hours of time on unverifiable allegation.

  237. Wahaha
    July 18th, 2008 at 22:47 | #237

    “Some argue that such apparent candor would seem
    unlikely given Chinese government controls over sensitive information, which may
    raise questions about the credibility of the telephone recordings.”

    I read the transcripts of telephone recordings on internet. In the dialogure, the doctor in hospital was specifically asked who would be the donor of organ ? the doctor said it was from Falun goners in prison.

    Remember this happend about 1 month after epoch reported organ harvest. If Organ harvest was true, wouldnt Chinese government inform those related hospitals and doctors be careful ?

    Only Falun idiots or China haters would use David Kilgour’s report to prove their point, or show off their stupidity.

  238. specul8r
    July 19th, 2008 at 00:46 | #238

    In this hi-tech era, telephone conversation can easily be doctored with two individuals and that doesn’t proof that the hospital phone number was actually dialed and information was collected from the actual doctors. With the NTD TV of Falun Gone propaganda group, they could easily set up a video recording session showing the actual hospital phone number was dialed (with a closed-up shot on the phone keypad) and recorded the conversation on video. To further strengthen the authenticity of the telephone call, they can show the telephone bill that show the actual number of minutes of the call on the video. Do not say they couldn’t have done it or thought about it. If they can hack into satellite broadcasting system, they could easily think of how to collect evidence properly unless their motive is to deceit people with phone recording. Falun Gone practitioners were not able to see this shortcoming because they were so loyal to their leaders and so angry towards China, and their collective minds are being manipulated by the evil leadership but this cannot fool majority of people who are neutral and fair in judgment. Forgive me for saying this and I have no hatred towards Falun Gong practitioners but only want these evil leaders to stop and return to dignity and stop the twisted teachings.

  239. KungfuPanda
    July 19th, 2008 at 02:29 | #239

    Re Wendy #231,

    You’re right about the rhetoric of Falun gong and CCP. When it comes to propaganda, they’re almost identical twin. I was amused to read Falun gong’s article on the web site. Make me feel at home.

  240. July 21st, 2008 at 01:20 | #240

    Specul8r.. Who do you think you are fooling? If i had any doubt in my mind about you being a collaberator of Charles Liu / Bobby Fletcher i sure dont now.. You use the exact same garbage as he does and he fails at it miserbly too..
    So i will send in response to your garbage above what i have sent on every site Charles Liu alias Bobby Fletcher has also frequented with his garbage. You know i do this because i am a Falun Gong practitioner and want this persecution to stop.. Why do you do this? and send exactly what Bobby Fletcher /Charles Liu does… You are not fooling anyone except your own poor deluded selves. You are being used by the worst bunch of evil dictators ever – the Ccp . Maybe Ill add Specul8r to the list of Bobby Flethcers alias Charles Liu.

    I am presuming you know John Kusumi?
    http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=8237

    David Matas and David Kilgour report credible by John Kusumi
    And I want to end by coming back to this report — ‘Bloody Harvest’ — by David Matas and David Kilgour. And, I submit to you that this report MUST be addressed seriously and extensively by the North American media.
    “The credibility of the authors of this report is simply not in question — David Matas is perhaps the leading human rights lawyer in Canada; David Kilgour is a former Secretary of State for far eastern affairs in Canada; both are lawyers; and they have impeccable credentials.
    “This is not coming from the National Enquirer or Fox News; this is coming from sources that are simply unimpeachable. And given the horrendous nature of the allegations — and the impeccable sources which have produced the report — this cannot be legitimately ignored by legitimate journalists. It must be debated.

    This iis a direct response from David matas and David Kilgour to Charles Liu propognada campaign-

    It has been brought once again to our attention that Charles Liu has been sending letters to many who spoke out on the organ pillaging issue to discredit Falun Gong and the independent organ harvesting report by Kilgour-Matas. He sends his letters to many media which have made reports on the issue or mention the Kilgour/Matas report. His letter is virtually the same always.

    He wrote to Matas and Kilgour respectively before and after they published their investigation report: “Bloody Harvest”, which is available in numerous languages at http://www.organharvestinvestigation.net.

    He has been posting his views on numerous internet blogs/bbs that mention the organ harvesting.

    An article in the Western Standard magazine provided information about Liu’s real intentions:
    Western Standard: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

    http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=article&article_id=2436
    http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=2436

    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/media/WesternStandard_040907.htm

    Below are points responding to Liu’s allegations:

    1. Charles Liu claimed: “– US State Department’s undercover investigation found Falun Gong’s Sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation not credible. [1]”

    Our response:
    1.1 There is no ‘undercover investigation’ as we know of. The US state Department sent the US consular officers attend the show tour of the Sujiatun hospital escorted by the hospital authorities, weeks after the witness testimony about the organ harvesting was made public.

    1.2 The witness said that her husband was conducting organ harvesting operations for two years ending in October 2003, more than two and a half years before the US State Department consular officials visited the hospital. What the officials saw in April 2006 tells us nothing about what was going on in 2002 and 2003 at that hospital.

    1.3 Matas and Kilgour were well aware of the US state department ‘findings’, ie. they did not see/find anything. That proves nothing. Kilgour and Matas made their own conclusion based on the 33 kinds of evidence and all of them are verifiable.

    1.4 The US state department, since the Kilgour/Matas report came out, did not comment on the Kilgour/Matas report and has certainly not expressed any doubt about it.

    2. Charles Liu claimed: – – “A US Congressional brief critical of China questioned the veracity of Falun Gong’s claim of genocide and credibility of Kilgour/Matas report. [2]”

    Our response:
    2.1 This reference [2] does not exist. We were aware that there was an anonymous blog (no author name, no identification of the owner, no contact of any kind) which questioned the Kilgour/Matas report, but we believe nobody could rely on it as a credible source and the blog has been deleted some time ago. It no longer exists. It can not be used as a reference at all.
    2.2 On the contrary, a US Congressional hearing, Falun Gong: Organ Harvesting and China’s Ongoing War on Human Rights , was held on September 27 2006 at the Subcommittee on the Oversight and Investigation of the Committee on International Relations. Please find the whole hearing transcript at: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/archives/oihear.htm or
    http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/archives/109/30146.pdf
    Hon. David Kilgour and David Matas have presented to various Congress/Parliament hearings in different countries, including European Parliament.
    2.3 Following the Kilgour/Matas investigation report, the only studies or investigations which have looked at the matter are those of Dr. Kirk Allison of the University of Minnesota and Dr. Tom Treasure, a UK transplant surgeon, writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. Both have come to the same conclusion as Kilgour and Matas, ie, that this practice is happening.
    Please note Kirk Allision’s testimony at a US Congressional hearing:
    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/events/allison-092906-to-us-congress.pdf
    Tom Treasure:
    https://www.dafoh.org/Article_by_Dr.php
    2.4 Worth mentioning is a Belgian Senator Patrik Vankrunkelsven, who made phone call to two hospitals in China last fall in an effort to investigate organ harvesting.
    He called hospitals in Beijing in mid-November and presented himself as a patient in need of a kidney transplant. He says he was invited to come for the operation and was told that the waiting time would be only a few weeks.
    The hospital staff told the senator that the price of a kidney would be 50,000 Euros and one of the hospitals also offered to register him under a Chinese name and address.
    The senator presented his findings at a seminar in Brussels (December 2006) sponsored by the Belgian Transplant Association. Vankrunkelsven also proposed passing legislation to ban all forms of “organ transplant tourism” to countries where the transplants are performed in violation of fundamental ethical principles.

    3. Charles Liu’s claim: “Independent investigation by long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu found Falun Gong’s witness unverifiable.”

    Our response:
    3.1 David Kilgour interviewed Harry Wu during their investigation on the organ harvesting allegation and was well aware of Wu’s stance before they made the final conclusion. Kilgour/Matas made a response to Hurry Wu’s claims in appendix 16 of their revised report. http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc158023109

    3.2 Falun Dafa Informatin Centre also made a statement on Harry Wu’s conduct on the organ harvesting issue. Please see: http://faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9452

    4. Charles Wu’s claim: “The hospital Falun Gong accused is partly owned by a Malaysian health care company….”

    Our response:
    4.1 In Charles Liu’s reference, there is such a paragraph:
    “In spite of which, a Malaysian company (Country Heights Health Sanctuary) has recently (year 2004) invested in Liaoning Thrombus Medical Treatment Center,Shenyang China…..”
    That indicates that the Malaysians involvement started in 2004.
    However, the witness said that her husband involved the organ harvesting from late 2001 to October 2003. What happened in 2004 and after is not relevant.
    4.2 The witness said that very few people in the hospital knew about it while the organ harvesting was going on in the hospital. She herself worked in the hospital and her husband had been doing operations in it for two years, but she did not know it until her husband became abnormal and could not hold his terrible secret any longer.
    4.3 Those who had been involved in the organ harvesting are unlikely to inform the Malaysian authority about their killings. If they could conceal it from most of the Chinese employees for years, could they not hide it from foreigners.
    4.4 In addition, Kilgour and Matas’s conclusion was not based on witness testimony in Sujiatun, but upon evidence collected across China, including phone admissions from doctors and other personnel in more than ten provinces.

    5. Charles Liu’s claim: “The gory photo admitted as evidence by Mr. Kilgour is not evidence of vivisection…..”

    Our response:
    The issue was well addressed in the Kilgour/Matas revised report as follows:
    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/
    “In the first version of our report, appendix twelve had a photo of a person with stitches after his body was cut open to remove organs. One comment we received back is that the stitches the photos show are consistent with an autopsy.
    “We observe that organs may indeed be removed for autopsies in order to determine the cause of death. A corpse which has been autopsied may well have stitches similar to those shown in the photo. Outside of China, except for organ donors, that is likely the reason why organs would be removed from a corpse. Similarly, outside of China, when people are blood tested, typically, the test is done for their own health. However, the suggestion that Falun Gong practitioners who are tortured to the point of death are blood tested for their health or that practitioners who are tortured to death are autopsied to determine the cause of death belies the torture experience.
    “The corpse whose photo we reproduced was that of Wang Bin. Beatings caused the artery in Mr. Wang’s neck and major blood vessels to break. As a result, his tonsils were injured, his lymph nodes were crushed, and several bones were fractured. He had cigarette burns on the backs of his hands and inside his nostrils. There were bruises all over his body. Even though he was already close to death, he was tortured again at night. He finally lost consciousness. On the night of October 4, 2000, Mr. Wang died from his injuries.
    “The purpose of an autopsy report is to determine the cause of death when the cause is otherwise unknown. But in the case of Wang Bin, the cause of death was known before his organs were removed. The suggestion that Wang bin would be autopsied to determine the cause of death after he was tortured to death is not plausible. There was no indication that the family of Wang Bin was asked for consent before the organs of the victim were removed nor provided an autopsy report afterwards. The suggestion of an autopsy is not a tenable explanation for the stitches on Wang Bin’s body. ”

    Specula8r– anyone who has a shred of decency in them would see past Charles Lius lies. If you cannot but still toe his line the Ccp line then i am moving on ….

  241. specul8r
    July 22nd, 2008 at 05:44 | #241

    Jana,

    Just one thing I have to say to you – “Burden of Proof” and read the definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof.

    I don’t have to give you lengthy useless comments and non-working links. GOOD LUCK and stop fighting with your inner selves.

    You said, “You know i do this because i am a Falun Gong practitioner and want this persecution to stop.. ”
    I said, “You cannot stop persecution of Falun Gong if you are continuously participating in it”. Remember the Quantum Physics, “The observer who is measuring and observing the experiment will change the observable outcome of the experiment every time”.

    You can call me anything and curse me anyway you like but it’s not going to change you a bit. No more wasting my energy on you, sister.

  242. July 22nd, 2008 at 19:46 | #242

    What this all boils down to is that no matter what i put before you even if it is black and white your CCP mentality has poisioned and brainwashed you so badly you and many others in China wont see the truth.
    I am not cursing you i am trying to wake you up to your good side you good nature your truthful nature. But you and the likes of Bobby Fletcher Charles Liu,WaHaha, Wendy have lost your chance in this lifetime,,, end of story

  243. Wahaha
    July 22nd, 2008 at 21:09 | #243

    “But you and the likes of Bobby Fletcher Charles Liu,WaHaha, Wendy have lost your chance in this lifetime,,, end of story”

    Lost chance of what ? setting my children on fire like the incident in 2001 ?

    Can you deny the fact that over one thousand Falun followers died cuz they refused medication ?

  244. July 23rd, 2008 at 03:50 | #244

    Yes i can deny that righteously and truthfully . With a survey of 70 million people they found that over that same year if you surveyed 70 million people who didn’t practise Falun Gong then much more than 1000 people would have died. More in the vicinity of 14,000 people in that age group would have died in one year.. You see what ever the real truth is the Ccp always turns it 180 degrees around they lie ,deny and deceive all of you. They were happy about Falun Gong saving them so much money on medical cover for the Chinese people.

    Also we don’t refuse medication at all. If you feel you are sick go to the Doctor with out delay.
    AS for the false self immolation in Tiananmen square in 2001 that myth has been debunked so many times.
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/self-immolation.html
    http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/self_immolation/si_video.html

    Even the cops I show this movie to can see clearly the evidence that the women who dies in the square was hit with a blunt heavy object and dies of those injuries .
    Its like what the ccp says say about Tiananmen square Massacre The ccp really take care of their people don’t they??? …. It didn’t happen……. The world saw the massacre and the Ccp still denies it to this day to all Chinese popple. And they refuse to discuss this with the Chinese. Say sorry??? They don’t know how..

    Take a rest you guys. You wont win this Ccp propaganda war. The Ccp is yesterdays news….

  245. Wahaha
    July 23rd, 2008 at 04:01 | #245

    survey of 70 million people in China in 90s ?

    no common sense

  246. July 23rd, 2008 at 04:24 | #246

    The Cc regime ran a survey on Qigong in teh 90″s as they also believed that it has healthy inducing qualities and they wanted to promote i so as to help eas the debt of the heatlh system . What the Ccp found was that of the 70 million Falun Gong they surveyed 99% had had not health problems over the previous 5 years. IN fact the 1000 people who did die were not from Falun Gong but other lower practices of Qigong that rely only on the exercise to improve ones health with our paying attention to improving heart and mind nature..

    see how you all behave exactly like the Ccp nature does, You are presented with the truth and you deny it or call it no common sense. Have you heard any the Ccp ever tell you the truth about anything, The world most repressive regime and you listen to it,,, how sad and confused you all are.

    All the acts are laid before you in an open and dignified manner with third party non Falun Gong practitioners David Kilgour and David Matas and you ignore it all because you know there is nothing you can say to defend the degnerate Ccp.

    Bye Bye Ccp you are othing but yesterday world!!

  247. Wahaha
    July 23rd, 2008 at 04:36 | #247

    I dont care about Falun,

    So show me a link that CCP ever said that Falun had 70 million followers in China.

  248. Wahaha
    July 23rd, 2008 at 04:46 | #248

    Oh, BTW, you are an idiot.

    the survey was about Qigong, if what you said is true, chinese government surveyed 70 million Qigong practicers, not 70 millions Falun goners.

    Epoch claimed CCP surveyed 70 million falun goners, didnt it ? what a garbage.

  249. Wukailong
    July 23rd, 2008 at 05:18 | #249

    Strange. I’ve heard many different numbers, but the 70 million was new for me. CCP, during and after the crackdown, claimed FLG had only around a million followers, which is probably too little. I’ve seen the number 100 million reported as a FLG number by a “Western” news sources, but that’s seems way too big. 10-30 million was probably the correct number back in 1999.

  250. specul8r
    July 23rd, 2008 at 05:25 | #250

    If you die, you are not qualify as “Falun Gone practioner” but “lower level practioner” and if you don’t die, we will use you as “Falun Gone practioner”. So, pick your choice of how you want to be counted. Any question? Of course, the ones who died couldn’t speak up that they are “Falun Gone practioner” and not being counted properly.

  251. July 23rd, 2008 at 05:33 | #251

    So do yuo want to talk about the false self immoliation incident i gave 2 links too? Or are you just going to ignore those and get onto the next slanderous comment? There were 100 milion practisiing Falun Gong bewtween 1996-1998. The regime iinterviewed 100 million people who were practising qigong.70 milllion were Falun Gong and that also freaked the Ccp. and gave them fuel to illegally and immoraly turn 100 million good citizens into criminals..

  252. BMY
    July 23rd, 2008 at 08:16 | #252

    what a fascinating thread! I didn’t realize it’s still on hot .

  253. July 23rd, 2008 at 09:13 | #253

    BMY, how can this be fascinating when just about all contributors are spouting the Ccp line and BS about Falun Gong, They attack with the same BS that another known Ccp collaborator Bobby Fletcher alias Charles Liu and then they dont answer the evidence presented when given, they Twist the story round and when it gets too real for them they revert to slander again. My Children have more decency , intelligence and humanity than most of these communist bloggers.

    I wish and can only hope that somewhere on every blog these commentators who seek to discredit a kind group of people will stop supporting the most inhumane and horrendous persecution by the communist regime.

  254. Wukailong
    July 23rd, 2008 at 10:39 | #254

    @Jana: Where do you get the numbers 70-100 million? I’m not out to slander (I’m not Chinese, even less a member of CCP), I’m seriously curious. Also, do you mean that all 100 million were Falungong practitioners, or 70 million were?

  255. Wukailong
    July 23rd, 2008 at 10:40 | #255

    (Hmm, looks like it says in my above comment that being Chinese and being out to slander is connected. That’s not what I meant, just wanted to state that I have no interest in either rebuking or advocating FLG)

  256. BMY
    July 23rd, 2008 at 11:21 | #256

    I ‘m pretty sure your Children have more decency,intelligence and humannity than most of people on this planet because I can see how intellegent their mum is.

    without you telling me, I can tell Bobby Fletcher , Charles Liu ,wahaha,specul8r are all ccp agents and they have group meetings every day to talk about how to discredit you and your orgnization. I suspect wukailong is also a Ccp collaborator even he claims to be from somewhere in Europe.

    I very much admire how brave you are , you are fighting Ccp collaborators wherever they go. keep up your good work

  257. July 23rd, 2008 at 11:48 | #257

    Errrmmmm . . . . . Jana, that’s just crazy. That would make about one in 13 people former members of FLG, and let me tell you that although I have met Chinese sympathetic to FLG, I did not meet one person who was a former member in more than five years in Mainland China.

  258. BMY
    July 23rd, 2008 at 12:42 | #258

    @FOARP,

    Look, you have been brain washed by Charlies Liu, wahaha alike comunist bloggers here. You didn’t stay long enough in China and people did not dare to tell you if they were former FLG member. Have you seen organ harvest? you didn’t. But Jana and her friends have seen too many and I beleive them.

    I suspect if you are a anti-ccp you clame to be.

  259. July 23rd, 2008 at 13:20 | #259

    BMY

    Thank you for your kindness and understanding, I have known for some time now that this site is frequented and used by ccp collaborators. In my heart I have hoped that somehow I would be able to reach these lost people and help them return to kindness and their true nature. Falun Gong is exactly what we say it is and is exactly how you see us behave. We are good people who have a sincere wish to be better people and live by the tenants to be True , Good and to Endure . My children do not cultivate nor does my husband and we have managed to live harmoniously with other. We cannot go to monasteries to practice so we live in everyday society and thru being good people it has its effects on everyone in the environment.

    The people of the world are doomed if we think we can ignore or support the persecution, murder and live removal of Falun Gong practitioners organs. No regime or political party can forbid you or make you give up your belief because it is power hungry and it fears goodness. The Ccp cannot make Falun Gong into criminals for practising truth compassion and forbearance. By their actions they have created their own demise.

    Can’t you ccp collaborators see this? This is not something Falun Gong has created but it is the future that the Ccp has created for themselves.

  260. Wahaha
    July 23rd, 2008 at 13:32 | #260

    Hey, Jana,

    Since when all Qigong became Falun in China? I guess CCP made it happen, right ?

  261. specul8r
    July 23rd, 2008 at 13:56 | #261

    If I am a “Spy”, don’t I have better things to do than posting messages on the blogs? Don’t you see U.S. government can trace my IP and follow me? Am I going to be fear of being labeled as “Spy” and stop posting common sense statements? Am I going to be prohibited from doing that? I am a U.S. Citizen and I am a Chinese but not from China nor ever been on CCP membership. I am paying my taxes and being a good citizen of United States. I am not a some extremist newspaper reporter as some other people is. I don’t even follow news regularly and only search for news when relevant info get me interested. I don’t read garbage like Epochtimes because there is no professional journalism in there. I only read them when I need to find info. I don’t read CCP websites either.

    Come on people, do you believe the garbage putting out by someone using the materials from extremist but cannot debate in logical way? I have clear understanding of Falun Gone from spiritual point of view and it’s false teaching. I am speaking up against that and now I become a “spy”. Very funny. Maybe I can become “008”.

  262. July 23rd, 2008 at 15:13 | #262

    BMY must have his tongue firmly in his cheek…

  263. KungFuPanda
    July 24th, 2008 at 03:51 | #263

    Re MutantJedi,

    I guess you’re right about BMY, who seems the same as Charlies Liu. Interesting.

  264. KungFuPanda
    July 24th, 2008 at 04:08 | #264

    Jena,

    It has bothering me for some time about the allegations of human organ harvesting and torture. Since China is such a huge country with 1.3 billion people, I guess anything could happen. Innocent people do get killed for no reason, maybe just at the wrong place at the wrong time. However, the allegations are very serious in nature, I’d like to know if these crimes were sanctioned or authorized by the government, or could it be the crime by individuals who would do anything to get revenge or get rich?

  265. July 25th, 2008 at 02:14 | #265

    re Kungfupanda

    Best you read the organ harvesting reports thoroughly as it links to all evidence presented by third parties as well. The main thing is jiang zemin started this immoral illegal persecution on Falun Gong and he is also in charge of the army. The army hospitals do most of the organ harvesting and they keep the money to boost the army coffers and hospitals. That’s one way they manage to destroy the evidence of all Falun Gong practitioners deaths. Then other not so good people administrators and hospitals followed suit because they saw just how much money could be made.

    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/

    Specuarl8er dont waste you breath..

    BMY is a good person.

  266. KungFuPanda
    July 25th, 2008 at 02:34 | #266

    Jana,

    Yes, I can envision just how much inhuman money can be made in the human organ business. However I can not get a definitive answer from your response whether the crimes are authorized by the government. Can I get a simple answer of yes or no?

  267. July 25th, 2008 at 02:58 | #267

    The ccp denies they persecute Falun Gong practitioners, when in fact the world and the UN reports Amnesty and USA state govt reports know that they do. These can all be found in the David Kilgour and David Matas reports.

    So who is sanctioning these crimes? The hardliners in the ccp- jiang zemin and the military and local levels of ccp while ccp in the foreign ministry are more open and want reforms.
    Take a look at many of these media reports from all around the world
    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/media-eng.htm

  268. Wahaha
    July 25th, 2008 at 03:58 | #268

    Jana,

    Please protest during Beijing Olympic in Beijing like in Flushing, New York, make sure Falun will be hopeless in China.

    How dare you goners put Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance as your principle ?

    I guess if Li HongZi had said that the best way for men to be purified is to become an eunuch, all male Falun goners would have castrated.

  269. Wukailong
    July 25th, 2008 at 04:33 | #269

    “without you telling me, I can tell Bobby Fletcher , Charles Liu ,wahaha,specul8r are all ccp agents and they have group meetings every day to talk about how to discredit you and your orgnization. I suspect wukailong is also a Ccp collaborator even he claims to be from somewhere in Europe.”

    Surely this is sarcastic? I’ve never been suspected of being a CCP collaborator before, though it gave me some good laughs.

    Charles Liu, wahaha, specul8r etc: Should we have our meeting soon and discuss how to discredit FLG? 🙂

  270. BMY
    July 25th, 2008 at 05:01 | #270

    @Wukailong,

    you see I got suspected as one of your group as well by others #263:)

  271. specul8r
    July 25th, 2008 at 05:23 | #271

    @wukailong,

    Just to show we all have the same point of view to discredit Falun Gone without any collaboration is the result of the good nature of people and it has nothing to do with politics. However, Falun Goners see us differently. When anyone is against their point of view, it will be labeled as “spy, CCP influenced, CCP collaborators, etc.”

    I have read somewhere about the person’s statement like “I used to be a really bad person only caring for self. I cheated lied stole and hurt others. I put myself first always. Now i dont…” but still hasn’t changed and still cheating and hurting others.

  272. specul8r
    July 25th, 2008 at 05:26 | #272

    @BMY,

    You have good observations. Keep watching. Don’t blink. Don’t go to sleep or you will miss it. 🙂

  273. July 25th, 2008 at 05:41 | #273

    re Wiukailong,

    Here is Bobby Fletchers alias Charles Liu exposure of him being ccp collaborater..

    Here is an article that was Media article written about Charles Lui alias Bobby Flethcer as he was exposed for the spy he is.

    http://www.westernstandard.ca/we…cle.php? id=2436

    http:// organharvestinvestigation…dard_040907.htm

    Western Standard (Alberta): Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

    April 9, 2007 Monday
    Final Edition

    SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 24

    LENGTH: 699 words

    HEADLINE: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting,
    China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

    BYLINE: Kevin Steel, Western Standard

    BODY:

    He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone–anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government “harvests” and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong–the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light–and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China’s Communist government. And he’s not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China.

    Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters–in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer–have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone’s time.

    It’s a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as “a bunch of kooky friends making unfounded accusations. It’s just a bunch of blog BS.” As for why he devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting allegations, he says, “My position is that I simply don’t agree with their brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from anti-Communist party, to anti-China, and recently it’s morphed into this anti-Chinese hysteria and that’s going to be hurting people,” he says.
    As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up.

    He doesn’t really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year called “The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre” under the name of Bobby Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the Western Standard’s online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at least ten times that).

    Liu’s actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese
    Government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work
    department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies through their Disinformation Department.

    Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China’s
    macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing.
    “[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair,” says Kilgour. “I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do.”

    Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour’s co-author, David Matas, really doesn’t know what to make of Liu. “I don’t know who he is, but what he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese government,” Matas says.

    The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians–and their staff–prior to the meetings. “The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can’t imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people,” Matas says. “We’re not super-secretive, but you can’t find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we’re meeting with, where and when.” He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he’s ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach.

    I can tell you now that i am no kooky friend of Bobby Flethcer or Charles Lui so whats he hiding behind those lies?? How easy to see ..

  274. BMY
    July 25th, 2008 at 06:02 | #274

    @Jana,

    Thanks for your detailed stories about Liu. He seems like a enemy of many varies from your organization to politicians , reporters around the world . I beleive he would fail.

    regarding “he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at least ten times that).” , would you mind pointing out where you get your figure from? Because I always get confused by different figures from different sources and don’t know which one to trust.

    It was very sad story and I always want to find out the truth and I beleive your source would be very accurate. Many thanks

  275. werew
    July 25th, 2008 at 07:08 | #275

    To all CCP spies:
    There is no point of arguing further. Jana is obviously firm in her beliefs and no amount of debating (or shall I say evil ccp propaganda) is going to change her mind. I think the winners and loser of this debate are clear already. This debate has been devoid of intellectualism before it hit the hundreds. If you just give up now, this hopeless battle would end and Jana won’t have to spend her time arguing with you.

  276. Wukailong
    July 25th, 2008 at 07:32 | #276

    @BMY: 🙂

    After a while one wonders how many people are really commenting, what agendas they have, etc…

  277. kui
    July 25th, 2008 at 10:26 | #277

    Jana.

    It is going to be very hard for you to sell your rubbish here. Go and sell it to those brainwashed westerners or uneducated. I read your newspaper and find the extremism in your cult unbelievable. Your cult has become a joke among educated Chinese. “Heaven kills communist party”? One day, CCP will step down as ruling party. But they will step down gracefully. As a political party, they have made mistakes but they have achieved a lot too. Chinese people will take them as a political party only, nothing more nothing less. When CCP step down one day they will not be treated with hatred. Teaching hatred can only fool those stupid.

  278. July 25th, 2008 at 11:08 | #278

    @Kui – For the record, I think that the CCP’s campaign against Falungong (and religious practice in China in general) is despicable. This doesn’t mean I think much about Falungong, or that most westerners think much about Falungong, and your talk of ‘brainwashing’ in the west is just pure nonsense.

  279. July 25th, 2008 at 13:32 | #279

    I found this site that looks into religions and there was a comparison made between Christianity and Falun Gong by a Christian who then embraced Falun Gong. He gave the reason why. I usually send this to Christians who are true Christians and believers wanting to know more about Falun Gong because they too have expressed an interest on why is that Falun Gong is everywhere and that a so called powerful regime that normally can squash Andy perceived threat in a matter of weeks cannot do so with Falun Gong.
    Anyway see what you think…http://www.religioustolerance.org/veltkamp01.htm

    It reminded me of what BMY was saying so i thought it may help more understanding. You may not believe in any religion but you have to ask yourself why are we still here and why are we being persecuted? If we weren’t who we say we are then would we not have been wiped out like all other deviant cults? Think rationally about this one. All deviant cults and those bad for human society have never lasted. Yet Christianity was deemed a cult and a threat by the Romans and it withstood persecution for 300 years before the Romans accepted it..

    Goodness spreads everywhere and only goodness will be persecuted with no success. Falun Gong spread from heart to heart with no money to 80 countries all around the world to 100 million people. And we are still going even stronger today despite and
    in spite of the persecution. We are not here to be persecuted nor just to survive this persecution. We have higher aims for ourselves that have nothing to do with human everyday things. We are true cultivators of a righteous way.

    I do believe that Wen and Hu do not want Falun Gong to be persecuted but they are caught up in a struggle for power with the old communist guard and are trying very hard to wrestle power from jiang zemins faction and others who support him.

    AS for all the everyday Chinese people we have great compassion for them in their bewilderment over Falun Gong. There are many insiders in the Ccp who know about Falun Gong and also see it as the salvation for Chinese people and not just Chinese people. This will all come to an end one day , this dharma ending period. So please choose rationally and wisely for your good future.

    BMY, there were many western journalist there on that day of tianimmen square massacre and some have made a film about and took footage of what happened. I will try and find it in the next few days and send it to you on this list.

  280. specul8r
    July 25th, 2008 at 14:50 | #280

    Try reading the original Zhuan Falun and the recent English translated version to see for yourself how much they have fixed to fit into western version. If Li said that Zhuan Falun has to be quoted according to his way only, there should be no changes in interpretation at all. You will see many of offensive to western viewpoints were omitted. Why contradict of what Li said in earlier teachings?

    People who have no true religious understanding in Buddhism and Christianity will believe what is writing in Zhuan Falun is filled with so much truth but in reality, there are many false teachings in Zhuan Falun based on his interpretation of shallow understanding of Buddhism. Original Christianity religion is not the same teaching of current Christian churches and it was known as “Essene”. Search in the internet and you will see “Essene” is the actual group of followers of “Issa” or “Jesus” as he is known in the west. If you are only understanding the Bible through Christianity, then you will see how much all these Ciristian Churches had twisted over the centuries and misinterpreted Jesus’s original teachings. By the time you read it, it’s already warped and true message is lost. So when you read Zhuan Falun, it makes some sense because you don’t read that in the Bible. However, Zhuan Falun is also twisted and only if you understand and read different religious books, you will see the facts. Of course Li doesn’t want you to read other texts because he doesn’t want you to find out there are other texts exist that he read and compiled into his version. Still, he was reading with his middle school grade knowledge and all he interpreted those readings reflect upon his writings and lectures. If you want to understand true teachings, you have to go to the original source – Indian religious texts.

    To show you how twisted these Christianity ministry has become, see this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sto2Rvui11k&feature=user
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbNy_CmAoB0&feature=user
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNGPjFYdgJw&feature=related

    However, these so called Christian faith is being used by people who see the opportunity to cheat and use the bible as their tool to preach with their twisted mind. Where are all those teachings of Jesus? They have turned it into sick violence and no wonder the world is getting worse. However, it’s not true that this is the actual representation of Christianity. True Christianity still exist and you can see from the last saint “Mother Therasa”. It can be said the same in Buddhism – “Master Cheng Yen” 證嚴法師. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Yen. Don’t say that it’s Dharma ending period. It’s who only looks at negative aspects of religions will only see negativity. You will have to search for the positive aspects and it’s definite that you will not find in “Falun Gone”. There is a saying in Buddhism, “What you feel inside is interpreted outside”. It means, if your inner heart is full of negativity, then you will only see negative side of humanity.

  281. July 25th, 2008 at 16:05 | #281

    *sigh*

  282. Wahaha
    July 25th, 2008 at 18:24 | #282

    “AS for all the everyday Chinese people we have great compassion for them in their bewilderment over Falun Gong. There are many insiders in the Ccp who know about Falun Gong and also see it as the salvation for Chinese people and not just Chinese people. This will all come to an end one day , this dharma ending period. So please choose rationally and wisely for your good future.”

    Join Falun quickly !!!! or you will go to hell some day !!! Only Li HongZi can save you !!!

    Jana, save your compassion for yourself, OK ? That is all we ask, OK ?

    I dont want my kids, my wife, my relative in China have anything to do with Falun, OK ?

    We dont need your help, OK ?

    If you cant even convince American people with all the freedom of media that Falun is good, what is the logic conclusion of that ? Easy, Falun is not good, OK ?

    Why should Chinese in China accept a “religion” that was disgusted by Chinese in America ? get the picture ?

    So save your compassion for yourself, dont poison chinese in China, is that too much for goners ?

    I called specul8r through a satellite over Mars, we all agree that it has nothing to do with CCP, it is about Falun. You dont have to bring “9 comments” again and again, OK ?

    Of course, you are entitled to your opinion about CCP, and bashing CCP if you want, but the point here is Falun is poison, clear ?

  283. KungFuPanda
    July 26th, 2008 at 01:28 | #283

    Re Jana #267.

    Thanks for your clarification. So, you’re accusing that Jiang Zhemin and the military are telling it’s people to take out organs while people are alive and then sell for profit? So, is it true that Jiang Zhemin and the military also took the money. If not, who?

  284. KungFuPanda
    July 26th, 2008 at 02:02 | #284

    Re Jana #279

    The article that you referenced http://www.religioustolerance.org/veltkamp01.htm is “donated by a visitor to this web site”. However, the article could not clear the allegations by http://www.bible.ca/falun-gong-falun-dafa-zhuan-falun.htm, and http://www.americanhumanist.org/press/falungong.php, as well as Rick A. Ross Institute.

  285. specul8r
    July 26th, 2008 at 02:08 | #285

    Check out these videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bffI10DDj-c&NR=1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzuIymBU9U&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUyPjeIFKug&feature=related

    Why Falun Gone do not go after these bad people? One can only imagine. On a second thought: How is Li spending the money or how is he paying for the Fa Hui trip? Someone should start questioning.

  286. KungFuPanda
    July 26th, 2008 at 02:18 | #286

    Re werew #275

    Instead of accusing those who would not agree with Falun Dafa as CCP spies, you might want to accuse those who would not agree with Falun Dafa and get paid as CCP spies. Let me know who get paid here.

    Also I thought you would agree that we would be better off if we debate here with words. It’s not going to help if people just keep their mouths shut.

  287. specul8r
    July 26th, 2008 at 06:42 | #287

    @werew:

    Why are you using Jana as a shield? If you have your comments, just bring it out on the table and let’s hear them. Stop being a kitten and hide behind the curtain. I am debating and it’s not about I win or you win. If you don’t have supporting point of views from other sources other than regular Falun Gone media, then don’t even think about your point of views are widely accepted. There is no CCP involved. This is all started based on “compassion” about humanity and not a political issue here. Drop the CCP involvement and I don’t care CCP exist or not and I will still carry on this debate.

  288. July 26th, 2008 at 06:51 | #288

    re WAHAWa,

    Its not us that are poisioning Chinese people / Its the Ccp who has throughly poisoned all Chinese people and very greedy western business people. Here is a na rticle printed in 2 of Australias top Newspapers.

    The foriegn correspondent journalist lives in Bejing
    Screws tighten on persecuted sect
    Anne Toy in Beijing July 26, 2008

    HELEN, a university graduate who speaks English and another European language fluently, lives in poverty in a rundown apartment block in a Chinese city we cannot identify to protect her.
    The flats on either side of her are occupied by the mistresses of Chinese businessmen.

    Helen, not her real name, also lives a secret life – one that is far more dangerous and less acceptable to China’s Communist leaders than being or keeping a mistress.

    She believes in Falun Gong, a quasi-Buddhist spiritual movement preaching “truth, forbearance and compassion” and teaches qi gong – ancient Chinese breathing exercises – to improve health and allegedly even cure illnesses and injuries.

    Practising Falun Gong is punishable by jail, torture and even death in China. The Government says it is an evil cult that brainwashes its victims into refusing medical treatment and even committing suicide.
    There have been at least 3000 documented deaths and 63,000 cases of torture of Falun Gong practitioners in China. Helen, who refuses to denounce Falun Gong, has survived two stints in labour camps but does not think she could survive a third, hence her life on the run.

    The Olympic Games are less than two weeks away, and the country’s vast security network has stepped up efforts to ensure an incident-free Games. This includes random sweeps of housing compounds to ensure that “undesirables” are picked up or scared away into someone else’s jurisdiction, making life even more precarious for people like Helen.

    The Herald interviewed several underground Falun Gong believers in China, including three new recruits, to see how the movement was faring after nine years of persecution and in the lead-up to the Olympics.
    Falun Gong was banned in July 1999 after the Government became alarmed by its sudden popularity and its ability to organise mass protests. The famous silent protest of April 1999, when 10,000 practitioners surrounded Zhongnanhai, the Communist Party leadership’s compound in Beijing, was the final straw for the president at the time, Jiang Zemin, who ordered the movement eradicated.

    Falun Gong was founded in 1992 by Li Hongzhi, a former soldier turned qi gong expert. It was the most popular of many qi gong groups then in vogue as people looked for meaning in a post-communist, quasi-capitalist but still one-party controlled China.

    By the time Falun Gong was banned, the state-run media estimated it had 70 million followers in China, including government and party cadres.

    A savage propaganda campaign involving every level of government and society followed, reminiscent of previous Communist purges such as the Cultural Revolution. It demonised Falun Gong as a doomsday cult that was undermining social stability.

    Thousands of members were forced to recant or suffer torture and death in labour camps. Followers were sacked, expelled from universities, deprived of health care and pensions. Some spouses filed for divorce. The Government says several members set fire to themselves in Tiananmen Square, an incident that Falun Gong claims was fabricated.

    Outside China, Falun Gong kept growing. Members in 70 countries, including Australia, wage a guerilla campaign against the Communist Party, claiming, among other things, that 6000 Falun Gong detainees were being harvested for their organs.

    The Chinese Government denies this. It says Falun Gong could provoke serious social disorder and that it has acted lawfully in suppressing it. The US State Department and Congress, the United Nations and human rights groups such as Amnesty International say that persecution of Falun Gong in China is a continuing abuse of human rights.

    Since Helen was released from a labour camp in 2005 she has been living on the edges of society, frequently moving but still doing the one thing that the Government fears most: spreading the word about Falun Gong.

    “More and more people are becoming practitioners,” she says quietly. “Even under such persecution … it is becoming a strong force that the CPC [Communist Party of China] will not be able to stop one day soon.”
    The Herald’s security precautions for this visit include not involving any Chinese staff in our plans, leaving behind our mobile phone to prevent it being tracked and circuitous routing to disguise our destination.

    “There is an enormous vacuum in every Chinese person’s heart – no belief, no moral standards – and in this situation when they meet a Falun Gong person or read a Falun Gong book which teaches them how to be a good person and gives moral guidelines for living, they are really awakened and shaken,” Helen says.
    “Li” and “Wang”, both just 17, plan to leave high school after learning Falun Gong through Helen. Another recruit, “Susan”, is halfway through university. She intends to complete her course even though she doubts the value of the education she is receiving, because she is too timid, she says, to buck the system entirely.
    Li’s parents knew of Helen’s past and her two stints in labour camps, but she was an old family friend and an English teacher who could possibly help their surly and sometimes suicidal teenager as a tutor, so they welcomed her into their home.

    He had resisted learning English for years but when Helen began telling him about Falun Gong he was hooked. Li says it has given his life purpose. He now loves studying but plans to leave what he says is the soul-destroying rote-learning education system. He has found a job so he can move out and practise in peace.

    Li’s parents were furious when they found out. A threat by his father to report Helen to the police was neutralised after his mother met Helen and listened to what she had to say. The mother then threatened to disgrace her husband by talking publicly about his mistress if he tried to turn in Helen and their son.
    Susan, a top student with a quiet manner, becomes agitated as she describes how she knew nothing about the Cultural Revolution or the murder of student protesters at Tiananmen Square in 1989 until meeting Helen and learning about Falun Gong.

    “I couldn’t understand why the Government didn’t allow us to know these things,” Susan says. “It makes me wonder how can I still trust the textbooks.” People in China are not encouraged to think independently, just to get good marks so they can make money, she says.

    A few months ago she offended a roommate when she suggested that it was irrational to boycott the French supermarket chain Carrefour – as many Chinese nationalists have done – because of its alleged support for the Dalai Lama.

    Li introduced his best friend, “Wang”, to Helen when Wang became disillusioned with school and society. Formerly an enthusiastic class monitor, Wang had been punished by teachers for highlighting student welfare issues and passing on suggestions from other students.

    “Chinese schools are only a place to cram Communist Party philosophy into students, not to give you knowledge,” Wang says. “The authorities penalise teachers who want to be good teachers, so they are victims too.”

    Asked if she will protest at the Olympics, Helen says she was initially keen but has realised she has more important work.

    “Many people like me have really risked our lives including in jail to try and let the world know what is happening, and that is enough in my opinion,” Helen says. “We’re not trying to push people. When I asked Li and Wang about going to Tiananmen Square they said, ‘Of course we want to do that but there are so many people who need help here [to hear about Falun Gong]’.”

    John Deller, a spokesman for Falun Gong Australia, says the movement is indigenous to China and has the welfare of Chinese people at heart, and so does not want to upset the Olympics. Followers also fear the Government would use any protests to discredit Falun Gong. “The problem is that the powers that be are using the Games to persecute people,” he says.

    Helen’s bare, concrete-floored flat – stifling in summer – is rented in a friend’s name. She sneaks in and out of the housing compound early in the morning and late at night, when most people are asleep or not yet up. The gaps around the windows are stuffed with newspaper and the window coverings are always kept closed to disguise the light and muffle sound.

    She stays as quiet as possible, a habit that has given her a speaking voice so soft that you have to strain to hear her. She never answers the door unless she is expecting a friend, and they have a special code, frequently changed, to identify themselves. When she hears of a security sweep or if the housing committee is asking too many questions about her, Helen leaves, hiding out wherever she can until she thinks it is safe to return. She stays in touch with other practitioners and her family through the internet and occasional phone calls.

    She still manages to meet people and, if she thinks they would be interested, shares Falun Gong with them. Every time she is risking her life, but trusting and hoping that the person in whom she has confided will keep her secret. So far, in three years on the run, they have.

    “We’re not trying to overthrow the Government,” she says. “We’re just trying to help people understand the CPC’s evil nature and that they can break free.
    “How can I overthrow the Government? I don’t have a weapon and I have to be careful all the time.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/07/25/1216492734168.html

  289. July 26th, 2008 at 06:54 | #289

    re KungFu panda

    yes jiang zemin and the military hospitals took the money from the live illegal organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners . Like i said Wen and Hu are different.

  290. July 26th, 2008 at 06:59 | #290

    re WAHAHA #282,

    WE dont ask people to join Falun Gong, it is not a club. You cannot force anyone to genuinly practice cultivation. What you say really show up you limited understandings of a genuine cultivation method..

    WE do ask Chinese people to quit the Ccp though for good future ahead.. makes sense now ?

  291. kui
    July 26th, 2008 at 13:39 | #291

    Usually the most brainwashed would think there is no brainwashing in the west. If the CCP had suppressed the FLG then good on them.

  292. kui
    July 26th, 2008 at 13:40 | #292

    Hey Jana, is this your full time job?

  293. kui
    July 26th, 2008 at 13:52 | #293

    To werew, those who think FLG is a cult are all CCP spies? You have really show us what FLG is. Go back to your master and tell them you got evidence CCP had sent thousands of spies just like ChenRongLin did. You may get a PR from doing that.

  294. kui
    July 26th, 2008 at 14:08 | #294

    Jana, It looks like that FLG has a great deal of hatred toward JiangZeMin. If your cult has so much magic power and “heaven destroys CCP”, why do not you show us any? Start it from JiangZeMin. If he is dead within a year I will reconsider to reassess your cult. Plenty of time for one single communist for you, right? Time for bed.

  295. specul8r
    July 26th, 2008 at 22:06 | #295

    http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?Itemid=240&id=1428&option=com_content&task=view

    a.r.s.: Alliance between Scientology and Falun Gong
    The Russian Front
    From: Gerry Armstrong
    Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology
    Subject: From Alexander Dvorkin in Moscow — Alliance between Scientology cultists and Falun Gong
    Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:06:21 -0800
    […]

    From Dr. Dvorkin:

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone!

    24-27 of December 2007 I was in Odessa (the Ukraine) where I, as
    usual, had delivered a series of lectures on cults and participated in
    a local conference “Totalitarian Cults – a threat to Person, Family,
    Society, and State”.

    I would not have even written about it (I conduct no less than 20 of
    similar lecture trips annually), if something new would not have
    happened during this trip. This new was the activity of the Ukrainian
    Falun Gong adepts who picketed all my lectures together with
    Scientologists. I am quite used to Scientology pickets but this time
    it was Falun Gong, acting exactly as Scientology would and handing out
    anti-Dvorkin leaflets and thick folders of Scientology compiled black
    PR against me.
    Scientologists were present there too, but they
    silently stood behind, letting Falun Gong do a dirty work for them. It
    is a first case of such clear cooperation of two cults that I have
    seen.

    I also should say that it was a big mistake of Falun Gong: I have not
    planned to even mention them in my lectures but now I had to dedicate
    a large part of my lecture time to them…

    Anyhow, I thought it would be helpful for all to know about this new
    and unholy alliance.

    ——————————————————————-
    Center of Religious Studies
    Ozernaya st 42, office 428 Moscow 119361 Russia
    Tel./Fax: (+7 495) 785 3634
    ——————————————————————-

    http://www.iriney.ru/

    © Gerry Armstrong
    http://www.gerryarmstrong.org

  296. July 27th, 2008 at 04:21 | #296

    re specular8, I don’t believe it one bit. We have never and will never appeal with any other groups . Every genuine Falun Gong practitioner knows that -it is a known given, WE may have compassion for them but we do not associate or appeal with any other group. If this author is trustworthy (and that’s a big if ) then the likely scenario is that because that Falun Dafa association was shut down in 2006 in Russia and several FGP’s were deported back to China and others were arrested I would say the corrupt and evil regime in China has given incentives to the corrupt regime in Russia to do eradicate Falun Gong., One of he ways that any regime will rid itself of dissenters is to spread lies thru propaganda to incite hatred. The Chinese regime knew that in the west we are afraid of the word cult so“cult” was used to defame and instill hatred against FG So then why not link it to the western cult scientology…Ccp and Russia Old guard communists still help each other and have the same plan..

    There you go lies exposed and originators of such filth exposed. Have you anywhere else seen Falun Gong in any other free countries be accused of this? NO! Have you ever seen Falun Gong appeal to stop persecution of Falun Gong with any other group anywhere in the world? NO. Please out an end to your lies and slander.

  297. specul8r
    July 27th, 2008 at 16:56 | #297

    Jana,

    >>> I don’t believe it one bit. We have never and will never appeal with any other groups .

    We? So there is a control of how your people act and should act? (see the third characteristics below).

    >>> If this author is trustworthy (and that’s a big if ) then the likely scenario is that because that Falun Dafa association was shut down in 2006 in Russia and several FGP’s were deported back to China and others were arrested I would say the corrupt and evil regime in China has given incentives to the corrupt regime in Russia to do eradicate Falun Gong., One of he ways that any regime will rid itself of dissenters is to spread lies thru propaganda to incite hatred. The Chinese regime knew that in the west we are afraid of the word cult so“cult” was used to defame and instill hatred against FG So then why not link it to the western cult scientology…Ccp and Russia Old guard communists still help each other and have the same plan..

    Remember, this doesn’t come from CCP and it’s in Russia, not a Communist Controlled Country and Russia is part of G8 country that controlled the world economy. So, stop slandering Communist issue and this is humanity issue. Besides, when you first discover you have a few Cancerous cells, what would a normal person do? Get treatment right? It’s the same in Russia and it’s nothing wrong with that. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

    >>> The Chinese regime knew that in the west we are afraid of the word cult so“cult” was used to defame and instill hatred against FG So then why not link it to the western cult scientology…Ccp and Russia Old guard communists still help each other and have the same plan..

    Do you accept Scientology is a cult? Based on your above statement, you do. China did not linked Falun Gone to Scientology. Don’t twist the news. It’s definitely a cult because Falun Gone is not a religion and it’s a shill for political purposes to arouse people’s hatred towards a government and to revolts against the government. I am viewing this from any general point of view and this can be easily applied to Islamic Fundamentalist group.

    >>> There you go lies exposed and originators of such filth exposed. Have you anywhere else seen Falun Gong in any other free countries be accused of this? NO! Have you ever seen Falun Gong appeal to stop persecution of Falun Gong with any other group anywhere in the world? NO. Please out an end to your lies and slander.

    (Question: Slander or Truth) Read the following after the above incident happened in December 2007.

    Original Source: http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article/Russian-expert-tags-Falun-Gong-as-international-cult/321763

    Russian expert tags Falun Gong as international cult
    By: tcmadvisory211

    Russian expert in sect studies Professor Alexander Dvorkin has tagged Falun Gong as an international cult at a forum in Beijing and said all healthy and righteous forces in the world should unite to combat cults.

    Cults harm individuals, families, societies and countries like “cancerous cells” in a healthy body, said Dvorkin, president of the Russian Association of Religious and Cultic Studies Centers in an interview with Xinhua after attending a Sino-Russian Forum on sect studies in Beijing on Thursday.

    “They would turn individuals into tools of cults, and destroy their families,” he said. “Cults make no contribution to the society. But they kept absorbing human resources and wealth from it.

    “Like cancerous cells, they obtain nutrition from the healthy body of society until it collapses.”

    He said that in the case of Falun Gong, the cult’s head Li Hongzhi bases its headquarters in New York and the activities of Falun Gong have infiltrated to many countries and entered various social circles.

    The Falun Gong practitioners feel they do not belong to any country and act entirely in accordance with Li’s will. The cult even gained support from other international cults and from the governments and parliaments of some western countries.

    Dvorkin said cults can be identified by four characteristics. First, the founder of a cult either calls himself God, or the only way to God. Second, cults usually have methods, which are easily acceptable to people, to achieve their goals. Third, cults are well organized with strict rules, and has a vertical totalitarian structure of leadership. Fourth, cults are deceptive, they can even change a person’s character and turn them into tools for cults.

    The 52-year-old scholar is a prominent sectologist, historian and theologist. He has published more than 500 articles and more than a dozen books, which were translated into 16 languages.

    Prof. Dvorkin said every cult is an independent kingdom. Followers of the cults would do anything that is beneficial to their organizations, and did not abide by laws and ethics. They would regard all the people as their enemies, and the anti-humanity nature of cults may lead to large-scale manslaughter, suicide and injuries.

    Falun Gong is a cult established in China in early 1990s. Its head Li Hongzhi first appealed to people through physical exercises to improve their health. Then he talked people into believing his theories of “doomsday” and “nirvana”, and controlled their minds. More than 1,700 practitioners are alleged to have died from practicing Falun Gong.

    Dvorkin said Falun Gong was not able to practice “truthfulness”, “benevolence” and “forbearance”. They often lied, and never said anything truthful.

    Li Hongzhi claimed that Falun Gong stemmed from Buddhism, but in fact it had nothing to do with Buddhism, said Dvorkin. Li claimed that he was a scientist, but he did not even have basic scientific knowledge. He promised he would make every practitioner healthy and happy, but many practitioners died and their families were devastated.

    He said cults always define themselves as “guardians of human rights”, and Falun Gong is no exception. “We have to reveal how cults harm human rights and help people to see their true colors, and tell them who are the real ‘guardians of human rights’.”

    Truth hurt like Caner patient will be in denial when first learned about cancer. Time will tell and start accepting the truth.

  298. specul8r
    July 27th, 2008 at 17:17 | #298

    re Jana,

    Another point:
    >>>then the likely scenario is that because that Falun Dafa association was shut down in 2006 in Russia and several FGP’s were deported back to China and others were arrested I would say the corrupt and evil regime in China has given incentives to the corrupt regime in Russia to do eradicate Falun Gong.,

    This is just pure speculation. If is not the same as definite and it’s the thought process that is working and it’s not knowing that they are collaborating. You will need stronger proof than just speculating. Where is your evidence?

  299. specul8r
    July 27th, 2008 at 17:18 | #299

    @werew

    Are you taking notes?

  300. specul8r
    July 27th, 2008 at 17:36 | #300

    source: http://griess.st1.at/gsk/fecris/INGO%20ALD%20EN.htm

    CULTS AND THE CULTIC LOBBY IN THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION, 2007

    An Overview

    Prof. Alexander L. Dvorkin, Moscow, Russia

    Today we increasingly encounter various shapes and forms of totalitarian and destructive cults. In my country, the cults have been actively working, developing and spreading for over fifteen years, and naturally, many features of the phenomenon are very similar to the rest of the world. Nonetheless, we have our own specific characteristics.

    When the cults had arrived en masse into the USSR (later in CIS) at the late 1980’s they’ve encountered a wide spread ignorance about them, wide spread admiration to everything western, and a situation where for a very insignificant for Western standards sum of money one could rent a huge stadium, for example. The ideological vacuum and a large number of disoriented people had eased the recruitment work for the cults. Another factor in favor of the cults was the benevolence of the authorities. Since in soviet times everything religious was either forbidden or barely tolerated (the only exception to that was ironically Hare Krishnas, who started their organization in Russia in 1981, most likely with the knowledge and consent of KGB), after the collapse of the Soviet power the pendulum has moved as far into the other direction. Even Gorbachev when in 1989 he had received Moon as a state guest, most likely had done it out of ignorance. However, his later support of Moon cannot be explained by this factor: we can suppose that the monetary factors probably had played the key role. Probably the same factors were the most important in the support of scientology, Hare Krishna, Aum Shinrikyo and other notorious cults by the Russian authorities. Scientology, for example, had the first presentation of “Dianetics” in the Kremlin, then it opened L. Ron Hubbard reading room in Moscow State University, found a lot of support in the Ministry of Health and even in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. In the case of Aum Shinrikyo it went as far that Mr. Oleg Lobov, their main high positioned supporter – the secretary of the Defense Council of the state – allegedly even sold to them the recipe of sarin and a combat helicopter.

    Since then some things have changed. Initially all cults were so to say, on the streets, recruiting new members. They used all means (mostly deceit and bribery) to obtain this goal and they did succeed to large extent. Now the presence of such multitude of the cults is not visible to such degree. So many superficial observers conclude that the situation has changed and the cultic totalitarian organizations have failed in Russia. There is nothing so far from the truth!

    The cults had not changed themselves; they just gradually changed their tactic. After having collected a body of members each group realized that the street recruitment cannot bring them to the desired goal – the control of the entire society. Nor can it even make them a really large body to influence the society by sheer numbers.

    Of course, people – and the authorities did get more information about the cults. Ironically, the more the cults did succeed in the short term, the worse it turned out for them on a long term: with each more person recruited, the number of cult-related tragedies did increase as well. Our Center of Religious Studies, founded in 1993 had become nationally known. I and my colleagues very often comment cult issues on the national TV, giving more information about each cult.

    So by now we should say, each of the large cults became notorious and people, armed by knowledge about cultic tragedies became much more cautious. So the new cultic tactic is such: the main thing for them is to entrench, to build the lobby, to mass property, including the real estate and industries, to silence their critics, and eventually to show themselves as a permanent part of Russian reality. We should add that 15-20 years ago the cults were seen as almost entirely foreign phenomenon. Now according to our estimate up to half of them are native Russian cults (Probably, the most notorious of these cult leaders is Mr. Gregory Grabovoy, who offered to Beslan mothers to raise their children from the dead for about three thousand euros per person). More over, some of these new Russian cults have moved part of their activity to the West, so the situation can be described by the familiar title: The Empire strikes back. But the patterns of behavior of both groups are very much similar. So we deal with groups that are either international or are internationalizing very quickly. On the other hand, the foreign groups are trying to acquire Russian appearance and to look as native as possible. Both foreign and Russian cults after their names become notorious either change the name (some do it on regular basis) or create a multitude of front organizations with ‘innocent’ sounding names.

    But the most important drive of the cults is to the circles of power. The Moonies reach many important power figures via their peace ambassadors program. The scientologists try to recruit business elite through so called Hubbard College of business administration (as they claim in Russia Hubbard College had trained the personnel of such thriving companies as Boeing, Chanel, Volvo, Coca-Cola, etc.). Hare Krishnas try to impress the authorities by their connection with Indian government. Others have other means to find a structure up on high that would protect them. But the most successful were the Neo-Pentecostals – so far the most numerous cultic movement in Russia and CIS. Their leader Sergey Ryakhovsky couple of years ago had become a member of the Presidential Council for the contacts with religious organizations, and little over a year ago was included in the newly founded Presidential Chamber of Public Representatives. He had very actively used the membership in both of those bodies to advance the cause of his organizations throughout Russia. I must add that the Neo-Pentecostals have been very active in advancing their political goals and infiltrating the power structures not only in Russia but also in the Ukraine, Byelorussia, and, perhaps, the most successfully, in Latvia. The most known Neo-Pentecostal leader of CIS Alexey Ledyaev have published a book named “The New World Order” in which he described a kind of totalitarian theocracy with Neo-Pentecostal leaders at the top. This is really a political program for the entire cultic movement. All of this, naturally, causes a very serious concern. In fact, I did voice this concern in a popular program on Russian TV. It happened in September a year ago. After that Mr. Ryakhovsky had sued me in Moscow court. In May the process had concluded by my victory. In September the Moscow city court has rejected Ryakhovsky’s appeal.

    So, all cults that have reached a certain size begin to build very actively their lobby. The lobby consists of several groups: pro-cult scholars, pro-cult human rights defenders, journalists, psychiatrists, lawyers, and finally pro-cult politicians.

    The role of scholars is taken in Russia by former communist professional anti-religion propagandists. With the fall of communism, they lost their well-paid sinecures. After looking for new jobs a lot of them realized that the newly arriving cults would pay well and offered their services to them. Now they call themselves “experts-religious scholars”. During the last few years though, there have begun to appear some young and newly made sociologists of religion actively propagating their “progressive” methodology.

    As for the second group it should be said that many former professional dissidents and human rights activists having also lost their raison d’être in the post-Soviet period, have now decided that they must defend the rights of small and defenseless “religious minorities” suffering terrible persecution and discrimination at the hands of an aggressive majority. Perhaps, the most well known of them, the Moscow Helsinki group, as it was proven several times, has been receiving money from Scientology. More over Moscow Helsinki group actively participates in virtually every public event organized by Scientology. Just recently the head of Moscow Helsinki group Ms. Alexeyeva had publicly proclaimed: “Many people tell me to stay away from Scientology for the sake of my good reputation. But I will always remain deaf to these advises”. I should say that two groups: Scientology and Falun Gong (Falun Dafa) have been leaders in using “human rights” community in their own goals. By the way, both of them cooperate very actively with each other. Falun Gong (which, incidentally in Russia consists mostly of ethnically Russian adepts) have been pursuing its own personal vendetta against Chinese government, and has successfully recruited most of “human rights” community to fight their battle.

    There are not many journalists who professionally explore the field. Among them there is a small but very noisy group of “professional revealers of truth” and “fighters against retrogrades” which is close to dissident-human rights defenders circles and who are ready to publish under their names any text that the cults will offer them.

    As for the lawyers specializing in the area of cults, there are very few of them and in fact, the most well known of them are those who represent the cults in various proceedings. Some of them are tightly connected to Scientology (out of then the most notorious is member of the board of Scientological Citizen’s Human Rights Commission – Ms. Galina Krylova who recently had represented Scientology in Strasbourg Court of Human Rights), while others are at least partially funded by the State Department of the USA (the best known of these is the Slavic Center of Law and Justice headed by Mr. Anatoly Pchelintsev and Mr. Vladimir Ryakhovsky – the brother of the chief Neo-Pentecostal of Russia who was mentioned above). Of course, both groups do receive income from many sources, both cultic, and pro-cultic.

    Russian pro-cult psychiatrists have incorporated themselves into the Independent Psychiatric Association closely connected with the very same former dissidents-human rights activists and being at least partially subsidized by the cults.

    As for the last group – the pro-cult politicians – a lot of them could be named (and some were named above). There is an entire political party: “The Union of Right Forces” which takes consistent pro-cult position. A former deputy education minister Mr. Alexander Asmolov had been an active supporter of the Moonies and some other cults. Another notorious case is Mr. Sergey Kirienko who had gone through several Hubbard college courses before Mr. Eltsyn had appointed him for a prime minister post. Now Mr. Kirienko is the Minister of Nuclear Energy.

    These are just a few examples. I could have easily mentioned much more names.

    The last thing I should mention that I do not see the cults as mere religious organizations concerned primarily with spiritual goals. These are power and money hungry bodies that care nothing about human lives, human dignity and human well being. There are multiple cases of people who suffer because of them in Russia. More over, we have many cases of outright crimes committed by cult members and cult bosses in my country. These crimes range from swindling and racket to drug traffic, pedophilia and murders. And the number of these crimes does multiply.

    We often hear from cult lobby that these organizations constantly change for the better. According to this viewpoint, the new religious movements (NRMs) have already outlived their initial, fanatical phase and have now become respectable and “main-line.” We are often accused of treating such organizations according to what they were long ago, and not what they really are today. However, the Russian experience shows otherwise. Most of these groups came into Russia at the end of 1980-s. They started from scratch in my country and had a chance to show that they were really different. However, it did not happen, and what we see in Russia is exactly the same modus operandi and modus vivendi that these groups exhibit in virtually every country they operated in before; there are no changes whatsoever, except, perhaps, a better and more aggressive PR. And it proves that until these groups continue to violate the basic rights of their members we could not expect from them to play anywhere near a positive role in our societies.

  301. Wahaha
    July 27th, 2008 at 21:38 | #301

    Jana,

    To criticize others, you yourself must have some credit, and Falun doesnt, at least among chinese.

    So before you keep bringing up CCP, you have to convince others why Falun is good, which you have failed miserably.

    We dont want Falun, whether CCP is good or not.

    BTW, in carnagie report, the current governement was considered as technocracy, not driven by idealism. So save your compassion for yourself. How abuot explain to us why Li HongZi is god of gods ? that will be a good start. and you goners claimed that Falun is law of universe, what the heck is that ?

  302. KungFuPanda
    July 28th, 2008 at 02:53 | #302

    Wow, “Taiwan’s Falun Gong members ‘greet’ Chinese tourists”, willing to sacrifice their hosting cities’ interest.

    On the other thought, maybe it’s a good idea. How about Falun gongs protest in Disney Land and other amusement parks in the United States. That’s going to get more bangs for their money, also a great way to pay back to the hosting country.

  303. July 29th, 2008 at 03:56 | #303

    Specular8

    Russia is following in Ccp led China’s footsteps. In 2 years murdered 30 journalist for speaking the truth about corrupt official so the regime has shut down and has control of all media etc now in Russia..

    Here is a western Chinese Historian and sociologist who has done large research on Falun Gong . I trust him over any Russian commie or Chinese communist. There are also several testimonies from Canadian politicians and Human rights lawyers here .
    Anything you bring up from one mad commie is obsolete and utter commie nonsense. I believe i have just blown you all out of the water…

    http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~tnchina/commentary/ownby1000.html
    Transnational China Project Commentary:
    “Falungong as a Cultural Revitalization Movement:
    An Historian Looks at Contemporary China”
    Professor David Ownby,

    Introduction

    Falun Gong, which emerged in China in the early 1990’s, is a spiritual practice promoting the self-improvement of the body, mind, and spirit. The guiding principle of Falun Gong is “Truth, Compassion, Forbearance”. Falun Gong contains five sets of simple, gentle meditation and exercises. It promotes self-awareness and moral and ethical behaviour in an individual’s thought and actions. The practice is loosely organized and has none of the characteristics of a “cult”.

    Falun Gong encourages people to live upright and harmonious family lives. Practitioners of Falun Gong strive to practice in an open and dignified manner. Falun Gong teaches people to always think of others and be kind and benevolent toward people in all circumstances. The teachings of Falun Gong require and promote treasuring all lives and socially acceptable activity. The teachings of Falun Gong prohibit homicide, suicide and criminal activity. The practice of Falun Gong is voluntary and practitioners are free to participate or not to participate according to their own individual wishes. Practitioners pay no money to practice or participate in Falun Gong.

    Testimony from Expert Witness
    In a court hearing in Canada November 17, 2003, Professor David Ownby, one of the very few in the world who did field work and research on Falun Gong stated:

    “In North America, Falun Gong practitioners are fairly well off, they’re very well educated, the generally live in nuclear families…They often work in computers or finance or, a lot of people in physics, engineering…They’re better educated, more wealthy, live in better houses than the average Canadian”.

    In his testimony (November 17, 2003), Professor Ownby comments that unlike cults, Falun Gong has no mandatory financial obligations, isolation of practitioners in communes or withdrawal from the world.
    Similarly, with respect to the Chinese regime’s allegations of murder, etc, Professor Ownby testified (November 17, 2003) that he had not come across any such homicidal tendencies and that in fact a basic tenet of Falun Gong is “that life is to be respected”. He also stated that
    “Nothing in (his) research would connect Falun Gong practitioners with organized crime or with criminal behaviour of any sort”.
    As for the repeated accusations that Falun Gong encourages practitioners to withdraw from society and to break from their families, he stated “This is simply not the case” and added:
    “Falun Gong members remain within society. In a vast majority, they live within nuclear families. They go to work, they send their kids to school…”
    His conclusion was that Falun Gong was not a cult and its practices were not dangerous. In his International Journal article, far from seeing evil in Falun Gong, he comments: “My impression … is of innocence…and (that there is) little in the practices of North American practitioners that causes concern”.
    Reference should also be had to Professor Ownby’s findings that the bulk of Canadian Falun Gong practitioners are very well educated, usefully employed and successful and have close family ties.

    Judgement from Ontario Human Rights Tribunal
    Ontario Human Rights Tribunal Finds Falun Gong a Protected Creed under Ontario Human Rights Code.
    http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en_text/news/e_bg_falun-gong.shtml

    http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en_text/news/e_pr_falun-gong.shtml

    “Expert Evidence
    Western scholars of religion would characterize Falun Gong as a new religious movement. The essence of Falun Gong is spiritual elevation. Falun Gong practitioners believe in the existence of gods and divine beings in the cosmos. Its leader, Li Hongzhi, has written a form of ‘scripture.‘ His message is profoundly moral. ”
    – Quote from news release by Ontario Human Rights Commission after judgement rendered by the Tribunal

    Court Judgement
    In a most recent court Judgement on July 6, 2006 from Milan, Italy, a news paper who used CCP propaganda which describe Falun Gong as cult and slander the nature of Falun Gong practice was convicted (It was a criminal case) by Milan Criminal Court.

    Comments from CSIS, FBI, and RCMP, and Police Force
    The Police Service in Canada (Constable Steven Camp) considers the Chinese Regime’s propaganda against Falun Gong wilful hate incitement. In the Edmonton Police report regarding one of the cases, the Edmonton hate crime unite police’s investigation report, it stated:

    “It is in my professional opinion that the literature being disseminated by the accused [Chinese consulate staff in Calgary] does constitute hate as indicated by the supreme court in the Keegstra decision, ….”
    “It should be noted that CSIS, FBI, and RCMP National Security have explained verbally that Falun Gong does not pose a security threat to Canada.”
    “Canada security, law enforcement and non government agencies and organizations have identified Falun Gong as a peaceful religion that pose no threat to the security of the country…. Some examples of organizations that confirm this verbally and through documentation are:
    CSIS, Edmonton Police Servic, RCMP, National Investigative Services, FBI, … ”

    Comments from Governor General, and Members of Parliament
    (there are many, just cut paste from one of the website:)

    “They cultivate the will to live in peace with themselves and in harmony with the universe, thus learning compassion for others and helping to create a more open and tolerant society.”
    – Her Excellency Adrienne Clarkson, former Governor General of Canada
    “Falun Dafa has as its aims the refinement of both the mind and the body, using the idea of Zhen-Shan-Ren, which means `Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance’. There are certainly principles which resonate with many Canadians.”
    – Herb Gray, former Deputy Prime Minister of Canada
    “I am proud to support your commitment to the health and well-being of people from all social backgrounds, races and religions.”
    – Sheila Copps, former Minister of Canadian Heritage
    “What we are witnessing today in China is the “criminalization of innocence” – the criminalization of a spiritual meditation exercise group – thereby subjecting all its members to intimidation, prosecution, persecution, and imprisonment, for no other reason than that they espoused the basic, fundamental values of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance.”
    – Hon. Irwin Cotler, former Minister of Justice

  304. specul8r
    July 29th, 2008 at 05:31 | #304

    @Jana,

    Everything that you have written has nothing to do with religion but all has to do with human rights, Commies, and political tones. Why are you so attached to these political statements? Removal of all these attachments from your system is so hard to do? It seems to be that way because your Falun Gone system isn’t a pure form Buddhism and it doesn’t teach anything about how to see the attachments in your system.

    you wrote:
    “They cultivate the will to live in peace with themselves and in harmony with the universe, thus learning compassion for others and helping to create a more open and tolerant society.”

    Tolerant of what? Commies? Remember, when you say tolerant, it means tolerant to anything and no string attached on your tolerance. It doesn’t matter how bad the other people do, you have to forgive and forget. That’s what the tolerant is about. “Eye for an eye, tooth for an tooth era is over”. You don’t escalate your conflicts and let Falun Gone followers in China suffer for your leaders benefits. Stop sending innocent people to hell and creating hell on earth. You people will not be living in peace as long as there is conflict internally and externally. If you want to live in peace, learn to lose the attachment that “I must win” or “I must bring down so and so” which is not your Buddha nature but it’s your “ego” is thinking and that’s part of your thought process. Stop wasting your energy wasting on these conflicts. It’s not good for you and you are carrying too much negative energy (negative karma) with you. If you insist to continue with what you are doing, Falun will be Gone forever. Many other Chinese used to sympathized with Falun Gone before but it’s no longer true. Eventually westerners will started to learn about the truth that Falun Gone groups are manipulating them and will stop supporting once and for all. May you find your peaceful moment.

  305. specul8r
    July 29th, 2008 at 05:58 | #305

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoSt7B57uWQ&eurl=http://t-tfamily.super-forum.net/forum-f46/topic-t669.htm

    See how all those chinese actors/singers are united for Beijing Olympics? There is no conflict and no politics. Olympics is not about political events. It’s a sporting events for all the countries to come together competing for sports and not competing for political events.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpWkNsGCms&feature=related

    See this video and tell me CCP destroy 5000 years of Traditional Chinese culture? Does this video has any theme of Communism? This video shows how much China has kept the traditional culture much much better than Falun Gone’s choreographs.

  306. Wukailong
    July 29th, 2008 at 06:02 | #306

    305 comments, and counting. Incredible.

    Of course the olympic games are political. Everything is, more or less. The question is whether one should make them more political or not, and whether one should boycott them for political reasons. To these questions, my answer is no – it wouldn’t do any good.

  307. July 29th, 2008 at 07:29 | #307

    Spectacul8

    Why on earth do you call me to talk about ,my spiritual belief when all you have ever done is rubbish it. Religions become political when the ruling regimes stick their noses in and tell us we cannot practise that because they are afraid of people becoming free, Make up you mind spetaculr8 you cant have it both ways. You are showing everyone on this blog your mindset which is as confusing and silly as the Ccp itself,

  308. werew
    July 29th, 2008 at 07:47 | #308

    Ok, I was being sarcastic.

  309. kui
    July 29th, 2008 at 13:47 | #309

    Jana. You have any time to practice your religion? Real buddhists always distance themselves from politics. Your brand of religion can not survive without politics and hatred. The only thing good about FLG is: IT IS VERY ENTERTAINING. Your cult provides very good jokes for Chinese community.

  310. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 00:29 | #310

    @jana,

    I do not want both ways. If your religion is rubbish, then you will accumulate and talk rubbish. There is no such thing as religions become political. It’s the politicians move into religions to hide and act to do political activities. That doesn’t mean those people in religions in that sense can be called religious people; they are still political. A wolf in a sheep’s cloth doesn’t make the wolf become a sheep. Only you are deluded and think that using your religious shield, you can be called religions and that’s way too immature to call me confusing and silly. You cannot discuss religion because you have none and even rebutt is about politics and human rights. I think the only place you can practice freely is go to MARS and practice your Falun Gone. You can do anything you want and say anything you want on the MARS.

    Let me give you a hint when Buddhism says “save sentient being” means. It has nothing to do with saving lives. Even Buddha sakyamuni cannot save dead baby. Read the story of Kisagotami and how she was saved.

    Kisagotami, a young woman, was married to the only son of a rich man and they had a male child. The child died when he was two years old. Kisagotami had intense attachment for the child. She clasped the dead child to her bossom, refused to part with it, and went from house to house, to her friends and relatives, asking them to give some medicine to bring the child back to life. A Buddhist monk said to her: “O good girl! I have no medicine. But go to Lord Buddha. He can surely give you a very good medicine. He is an ocean of mercy and love. The child will come back to life. Be not troubled”. She at once ran to Buddha and said, “O venerable sir! Can you give any medicine to this child ?”. Buddha replied, “Yes. I will give you a very good medicine. Bring some mustard seed from some house where no child or husband or wife or father or mother or servant had died”. She said, “Very good, sir, I shall bring it in a short time”.

    Carrying her dead child in her bossom, Kisagotami went to a house and asked for some mustard seed. The people of the house said, “O lady, here is mustard seed. Take it”. Kisagotami asked, “In your house, has any son or husband or wife, father or mother or servant died ?”. They replied, “O lady! You ask a very strange question. Many have died in our house”. Kisagotami went to another house and asked the same. The owner of the house said, “I have lost my eldest son and my wife”. She went to a third house. People of the house answered, “We have lost our parents”. She went to another house. The lady of the house said, “I lost my husband last year”. Ultimately Kisagotami was not able to find a single house where no one had died. Viveka and Vairagya dawned in her mind. She buried the dead body of her child. She began to reflect seriously on the problem of life and death in this world.

    Kisagotami then went to Lord Buddha and prostrated at his lotus feet. Buddha said to her, “O good girl! Have you brought the mustard seed ?”. Kisagotami answered, “I am not able to find a single house where no one has died”. Then Buddha said, “All the objects of this world are perishable and impermanent. This world is full of miseries, troubles and tribulations. Man or woman is troubled by birth, death, disease, old age and pain. We should gain wisdom from experience. We should not expect for things that do not and will not happen. This expectation leads us to unnecessary misery and suffering. One should obtain Nirvana. Then only all sorrows will come to an end. One will attain immortality and eternal peace“. Kisagotami then becoming a disciple of Buddha, entered the Order becoming a Buddhist Nun, and later attained Arahantship (Enlightenment).

    Just like Kisagotami, Falun Gone people are still attached to the good time moments in China (from 1992-1999) and when the good time moments are gone, they resent the treatment badly but do not understand the duality of nature (good time – bad time). Only when you let go of all these attachments, then you can be liberated. Do not dwell on the past and do not look for the future, just meditate in the present.

  311. July 30th, 2008 at 00:36 | #311

    re Specula8 and Kui,

    If you read and study elementry school text books you remain an elementry school student. All the stuff you quote in previous emails is very elementry and written for people with simple minds over 2000 years ago. Wake up to it. The Buddha Fa is here and you are so devoted to slamming it; you yourself have become poltical.

  312. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 00:55 | #312

    @Wukailong,

    >>> Of course the olympic games are political. Everything is, more or less.

    I disagree. Countries compete for the best sportsmanship win and not which political idealism is better. In Sports, everyone have equal chance to win but the reverse cannot be true. The rich politicians can buy out the votes to win the elections (or bend to lobbyists contributions) and that totally destroy the so called “Democracy spirit”.

  313. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 01:01 | #313

    @jana,

    You don’t even have basic understanding of Math and you want to take Abstract math and get confused? Give me a break. True Dharma never changed; only people changed. Just no use to devalue me. Your understanding of Buddhism is only from one source and not even a correct one; I have read many books including Zhuan Falun. 🙂

  314. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 01:03 | #314

    @jana,

    We are going back to simple life as taught in Dao. What is wrong with Simple Mind? That’s what we should be cultivating for, isn’t it? 🙂

  315. July 30th, 2008 at 01:12 | #315

    not simple mind – awakened mind. Falun Gong are not violent have never been violent have always abided by all laws of heaven and each country. We are are good people, the very best of humanity.You continually try to abuse us slander us call us political for trying to help humanity.Thats what Buddhas do , they come to save humanity when they are lost. Your understanding is warped by Ccp culture. The teachings that you use to denounce FAlun Gong are being used by you as a political tool shame on you. You are no cultivater. I think that many on this blog already know that. Give it up Spectul8r…

  316. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 02:20 | #316

    Yeah. I remember: udumbara flowers boom and a Buddha show up and change his birthdate. 🙂 Buddha do not need to change birthdate because they don’t have any more birth and death. 🙂 Talking about awaken mind. :):):)

  317. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 02:24 | #317

    I guess I have too much simple mind now. I rather be simple than get confused like you. 🙂

  318. Wahaha
    July 30th, 2008 at 02:28 | #318

    “We are are good people, the very best of humanity.”

    Your saying that has proved that Falun is garbage.

  319. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 02:32 | #319

    In Buddhism, the flower and fruit of the Ficus racemosa tree are referred to as the udumbara (Sanskrit: उडुम्बर).[1] The udumbara is also used to refer to the blue lotus (Nila udumbara) flower. 🙂

  320. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 02:35 | #320

    “Falun Gong are not violent have never been violent have always abided by all laws of heaven and each country”

    I don’t even want to go there. 🙂

  321. Wukailong
    July 30th, 2008 at 02:43 | #321

    @specul8r: “I disagree. Countries compete for the best sportsmanship win and not which political idealism is better. In Sports, everyone have equal chance to win but the reverse cannot be true. The rich politicians can buy out the votes to win the elections (or bend to lobbyists contributions) and that totally destroy the so called “Democracy spirit”.”

    Well, that’s part of it, and what I would hope mattered the most. But to believe that megaprojects that the Olympic Games have no political overtones is, frankly speaking, wishful thinking. It’s not about which political idealism is better, but ways for different countries to show their success and make advertisements for themselves.

    Now that two ancient countries like Greece and China are having olympics in a row, I sure hope politics wouldn’t be so much part of it, but it is (and I haven’t even mentioned the olympic committee).

    NOTE: This is my last post on this thread. It would be nice if people moved on from this subject, even though mine and specul8r’s posts were off-topic. 🙂

  322. July 30th, 2008 at 02:44 | #322

    Specua8r

    Udumburra flowers have bloomed I have some in my house that my non cultivater husband found. A creator has shown up and he did not change his birthdate. The violent and evil cultural revolution lost many birth certifcates.

    your statement from previous commnet “Li Hongzhi claimed that Falun Gong stemmed from Buddhism, but in fact it had nothing to do with Buddhism, said Dvorkin.”—
    Is correct, Falun Dafa has nothing to do with Buddhism. There are 84,000 cultivation schools in the Buddha’s FA just as there are trillions of Buddha’s Tathagattas Bodhisattvas and Arhats. They have not all cultivated in Shakyamuni Buddhism, They have cultivated in the thousands of other cultivation ways in the Buddha School. Just like Shakyamuni’s way is but one in the Buddha’s school too. Jesus Christ is another one in the Buddha School. The cultivation way of “Buddhism” does not exist in Falun Dafa nor Falun Dafa in Buddhism, nor Christianity in Buddhism or Buddhism in Christianity . But they are all cultivation ways in the Buddha FA School.

    If you can’t understand that then once again I repeat when you read elementary centuries old schoolbooks then you remain an elementary school pupil. I don’t expect you to understand or agree as only true cultivators would understand this one vital yet clear point.

  323. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 02:50 | #323

    Hey Jana, check this out! (It’s starting to be Gone!)

    Get all those 40 millions who quit CCP and ask them to write to the emails at the bottom of this page to put your NTDTV media back. 🙂

    Another Troubling Wave: Eutelsat Shuts Down NTDTV

    (Clearwisdom.net) New Tang Dynasty TV spokesperson Ms. Carrie Hung stated that BBG and Eutelsat have individually notified NTDTV that the BBG will end its contract with Eutelsat, and Eutelsat will cancel its contract with NTDTV on W5 Satellite broadcasting. The BBG’s contract with Eutelsat ends on July 31, 2008. NTDTV calls on its audience in Mainland China to pay urgent attention to this matter.

    Introduction to the BBG

    The BBG (Broadcasting Board of Governors) in an independent U.S. government agency in charge of government funded non-military broadcasting and international broadcasting. Between 1953-1999, the BBG was an internal department within the USIA (United States Information Agency).

    Currently, the BBG is in charge of government broadcasting entities from the United States to the world, such as VOA (Voice of America) and RFA (Radio Free Asia). When the first conflict with Eutelsat developed in 2005, Congress requested that the BBG make sure to use the W5 Satellite, which forced Eutelsat to not move W5 away from China. Congress required that Eutelsat remain open to all free media to Asia. This cooperation between the BBG and Eutelsat became the legal guarantee for a free information platform into Asia. Voice of America is funded by the U.S. government and was established in 1942. RFA is a non-government agency established by U.S. Congress and funded by the federal budget.

    Eutelsat Tried to Cancel NTDTV Contract Once Before, in 2005

    In 2005, in order to win business with China, Eutelsat announced that it was ending its contract with NTDTV. The Wall Street Journal pointed out that the purpose of this action was to gain Olympic broadcasting rights. Eutelsat knew the CCP did not like its contract with NTDTV. If they backed out of their deal with NTDTV, Beijing would be more likely to give them Olympic broadcasting rights.

    In response to Eutelsat’s action, many congresspersons, government officials, Members of the European Parliament and European lawmakers wrote letters and made phone calls, urging Eutelsat not to block NTDTV. Non-government organizations such as Reporters without Borders and the International Journalists Association initiated activities to support NTDTV. Finally, under strong pressure from the world, Eutelsat gave up its attempt to take NTDTV off the W5 Satellite.

    Ms. Carrie Hung said that the U.S. Congress’ decisions in 2005 helped to establish a window of free information into Mainland China, used by Chinese free media such as NTDTV for broadcasting true, unfiltered information to the Chinese people.

    CCP Influence and the BBG’s About Face

    Sources have reported that over the past few years, the CCP has repeatedly attempted to influence the BBG. Some internal changes took place within the BBG, and this led to the decision to cancel its business with Eutelsat on July 31, 2008, end broadcasting on the W5 Satellite, and put VOA and RFA on Asiasat 3S, which has been controlled by the CCP since the end of 2007. The BBG notified NTDTV of this decision just over a week ago.

    Ms. Hung said that Eutelsat contacted NTDTV shortly after the BBG, saying that since the BBG is canceling its contract, Eutelsat plans to cancel their contract with NTDTV to broadcast on W5. This means that the BBG decision will cause the only free information window into China to close.

    Switching to a CCP Controlled Satellite Shuts Off the Flow of Unfiltered Information into China

    Ms. Hung pointed out that under the CCP’s totalitarian rule, all media in mainland China, including TV stations, radio stations, newspapers, magazines, books and Internet are subject to censorship by the CCP, and all voices not in favor with the CCP are routinely shut off. China ranks 163rd out of 169 countries in terms of freedom of information.

    Ms. Hung continued to say that due to the BBG’s using 3S, the CCP can interfere with its signals anytime it wishes, and it can block any program they want. The CCP wasn’t able to do this on the W5 satellite.

    Technical experts have told us that for signals from the W5 Satellite, people in China can use small dishes to receive signals. But on 3S, signals must be received with a bigger satellite dish. This creates difficulties for users, because bigger satellite dishes are more easily found by the police.

    NTDTV Asks the Audience to Take Immediate Action to Help Maintain NTDTV Broadcasts

    Ms. Hung said that many have called NTDTV and sent e-mails, hoping that NTDTV can continue broadcasting in China. She said that NTDTV is grateful for audience support and hopes that they can express their concerns to the U.S. government and the BBG.

    When you call, fax, or e-mail, please request:

    1. BBG should not leave the W5 Satellite, and it should not cancel its contract with Eutelsat. It should ensure that W5 remains open as the only window of free information into China. This is the only channel through which many mainland Chinese receive unfiltered information via VOA, RFA, and NTDTV.

    2. Immediately allow NTDTV to broadcast into China through the BBG platform on the W5 Satellite.

    Contact Information

    Speaker of the House Ms. Nancy Pelosi: Tel- (202) 225-4965, fax (202) 225-8259, e-mail sf.nancy@mail.house.gov

    US Congressmember Ms. Nita Lowey: Tel- 202-225-6506, fax (202)-225-0546

    US Congressmember Mr. Frank Wolf: Tel- (202) 225-5136, fax (202) 225-0437

    US Congressmember Mr. Adam Schiff: Tel- (202) 225-4176, fax (202) 225-5828

    US Senator Mr. Patrick Leahy: Tel (202) 224-4242, e-mail: senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov

    US Senator Mr. Richard J. Durbin: Tel- (202) 224-2152, fax (202) 228-0400

    VOA CALL-IN program, Beijing time 9 p.m. to 10 p.m., has toll free CALL-In. First dial 10810 or 108710, then dial 866-837 -5161. Between Beijing time 12 midnight to 6 p.m., this phone number can be used as Chinese voice mail. Please tell VOA that leaving the W5 Satellite will reduce the effect of its broadcasting.

    RFA: Tel- (202)-530-4900. Please tell RFA leaving W5 Satellite will reduce the effect of its broadcasting. e-mail contact@rfa.org, or jacksonhans@rfa.org or by telephone (202) 530-7774

    US Secretary of State Dr. Condoleezza Rice: Tel- (202) 647-9572, fax (202) 647-2283

    BBG CEO Jeffrey Trimble: Tel- (202)-203-4545, fax (202)-203-4568, e-mail jtrimble@bbg.gov

    National Security Advisor Mr. Steve Hadley: Tel- (202) 456-9491, fax (202) 757-5529

    the White House, e-mail: president@whitehouse.gov

  324. July 30th, 2008 at 02:51 | #324

    I stand firm and truthfully say we are the very best of humanity. Weare complelety non violent even in the face of torture and death we will not give up our principles of truth compassion forbearance. This is the path of a genuine Buddha in the Buddha school.

    What are you defending spectacul8r?

  325. July 30th, 2008 at 02:55 | #325

    THis proves my point about you spectacul8r and the ccp. They are evil and try to stop the poor chinese people fromhearing the real truth about the outside world and also Falun Gong. Thisarticle clearly shows up what the ccp does by bribing companies with incentives and disincentivess to do their bidding… Thanks for posting that one .. You have helped Falun Gong…

  326. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:13 | #326

    poor Jana,

    >>>Udumburra flowers have bloomed I have some in my house that my non cultivater husband found.

    Yeah? 🙂

    >>>A creator has shown up and he did not change his birthdate. The violent and evil cultural revolution lost many birth certifcates.

    Haha. Very cute. Blame it on someone else and don’t take responsibility is the easiest way to reach enlightenment in Falun Gone.

    >>>Is correct, Falun Dafa has nothing to do with Buddhism. There are 84,000 cultivation schools in the Buddha’s FA just as there are trillions of Buddha’s Tathagattas Bodhisattvas and Arhats.

    Sad news is, “The Buddha is said to have given 84,000 instructions, which elaborate on all the afflictions and the means of overcoming them.When condensed, these can be included in the Three Baskets of Doctrine- so called because the original palm-leaf texts in India were contained in baskets. The Basket of Discourses explains the three trainings of ethics, meditative stabilization and wisdom, the Basket of Discipline explains ethical discipline and meditative stabilization, and the Basket of Knowledge explains the divisions of phenomena.” There is no 84,000 cultivation schools. Check your resources again. 🙂

    They have not all cultivated in Shakyamuni Buddhism, They have cultivated in the thousands of other cultivation ways in the Buddha School. Just like Shakyamuni’s way is but one in the Buddha’s school too. Jesus Christ is another one in the Buddha School. The cultivation way of “Buddhism” does not exist in Falun Dafa nor Falun Dafa in Buddhism, nor Christianity in Buddhism or Buddhism in Christianity . But they are all cultivation ways in the Buddha FA School.

    Wow! 🙂 Is that for real? This wasn’t the case when Li was in China and teaching his Falun Gone doctrine. Another switch again? 🙂

    >>>If you can’t understand that then once again I repeat when you read elementary centuries old schoolbooks then you remain an elementary school pupil. I don’t expect you to understand or agree as only true cultivators would understand this one vital yet clear point.

    This is reading for people with simple mind only and other confused people will not understand 🙂

    FRUITLESS QUESTIONS

    Shakyamuni was asked many questions which are being asked today: such as, Is there a God? Who created the world? Is there life after death? Where is heaven and hell? The classic answer given by the Buddha was silence. He refused to answer these questions purposely, because “these profit not, nor have they anything to do with the fundamentals of the religious life, nor do they lead to Supreme Wisdom, the Bliss of Nirvana.”

    Even if answers were given, he said, “there still remains the problems of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief, and despair–all the grim facts of life–and it is for their extinction that I prescribe my teachings.”

  327. July 30th, 2008 at 03:17 | #327

    Once again spectul8r I ask what is that your are defending? Please answer this question .

  328. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:19 | #328

    >>>THis proves my point about you spectacul8r and the ccp. They are evil and try to stop the poor chinese people fromhearing the real truth about the outside world and also Falun Gong. Thisarticle clearly shows up what the ccp does by bribing companies with incentives and disincentivess to do their bidding… Thanks for posting that one .. You have helped Falun Gong

    You are welcome 🙂 and I want to see if those 40 millions people can write to those politicians. Will you let me know when that happen? 🙂 Maybe I should start writing to them first? What do you think? 🙂

  329. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:20 | #329

    >>>Once again spectul8r I ask what is that your are defending? Please answer this question .

    I am not defending anything because I only have a simple mind and I can’t see your confused mind. 🙂

  330. July 30th, 2008 at 03:28 | #330

    Well apparently you are because you are defending someone or some idealogy against FAlun Gong. Many people on this blog can see that one . PLease be honest you have nothing to fear.. What are you trying to defend why keep on writing these comments if nothing is real and all this is simple?

    I am defending the good name of Falun Gong what are you defending? if you can’t answer that then i think we all know ..

  331. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:30 | #331

    whew! what a wonderful night for me. Have a good day, mate~

  332. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:34 | #332

    OK. I don’t have to repeat of what I am standing for. I am not fear of your nor your Falun Gone, and the whole blog know about it. I don’t have any attachments to defend for. 🙂 OK? I just present facts to the blogs. Please don’t get angry at me. It’s negative energy you are building up and it’s not good for you. :). Peace.

  333. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:37 | #333

    Also, I am not fear of CCP either and I have nothing to do with China besides my race. You can call N.Y. CCP Consulate to find out if he knows anyone ‘Specul8r’ or anyone working for him. Good luck.

  334. July 30th, 2008 at 03:40 | #334

    re #322 OK. I don’t have to repeat of what I am standing for.

    Yes you do if want anyone to believe what you are saying. You have said “I dont have to repeat what i am standing for” You never have said what you are standing for so how can you repeat it if we have not heard it the first time? PLease reiterate for us.. repeat it so we can all say sorry…if its genuine

  335. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:44 | #335

    334: 🙂 I know I have made you angry. I have done nothing wrong and I don’t have to say what you want me to say. I can sense the anger in your wording now and demanding me to apologize. Please don’t get angry at me and that’s the best I can say to you. 🙂

  336. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:48 | #336

    re 334: I have said my points all along and you are not reading them. There’s nothing to repeat all over again.

    If you want to start, read J. Krishnamurti books and learn the see the truth.

  337. July 30th, 2008 at 03:49 | #337

    No I am really not angry I can assure you. Please rest assured that i am not. But you can answer the qustion that i am asking! That would help close this issue off . But i can see that you are stalling to answer the question that i think many on this long blog would love to know. So come on please answer and then we can be done with this blog ?

    Be truthful and kind Specula8r show us what you have in your heart?

  338. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:56 | #338

    Use your “Third Eye” and you will see. 🙂

  339. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 03:59 | #339

    J. Krishnamurti explains precisely what you are looking for. 🙂

  340. July 30th, 2008 at 05:51 | #340

    Specula8r?

    Why is so hard for you tell the truth directly and honestly? There could only be one reason for defaming Falun Gong so venhemently and ruthlessly?And yet your silence on this one question that i have asked of you tells the truth on it’s own. You have sunk to an all time low in your life.

    I dint need to use my third eye to know what you do. I am sure that J.Krishnamurti (who ever he is) would also be appalled at your complete lack of ethics, compassion and inablity to tell the truth. You bring great shame on this man.

    Show me one sentence that this man has said against Falun Gong? or for that matter any other religion or spiritual path. You have said you follow this mans teachings? Does he tell you to insult defame and slander other religions? I think not,,

    Which brings me to this question again who are you slandering and defaming Falun Gong for?

  341. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 07:01 | #341

    So be it. Why are you afraid of me when I bring those links and news if those references are not true? 🙂 Unlike you Falun Gone people, my action has nothing to do with JK and I take responsibility of my own actions. I am just fed-up with the lies and twisting stories you Falun Gone people had sent all these nonsense and unverifiable propagandas and demonstrations to create divisions in Chinese community. That’s my motive to expose your false teacher and I think enough is enough.

    JK didn’t say anything against Falun Gone. Do not speculate on who he is until you read about him. 🙂 Of course, you are already confused and very afraid to read about him; so I am not going to tell you more. I am happy with my simple mind :).

  342. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 07:17 | #342

    NTDTV losing the contract on that Eutelsat is just the beginning. Your Epochtimes next? Who is going to print Falun Gone’s propaganda news when Epochtimes is Gone?

  343. July 30th, 2008 at 08:11 | #343

    Specul8r, you have clearly shown who you are and you do not have the ethics or pride to be honest about what you do.
    Clearly you must be very embarressed about what you have to do for a living otherwise you would be proud to say yes this is what i do.I believe in what i do and this is why i do it.

    Thats what i do for Falun Gong. I validate Falun Gong wherever i go because i believe in it and want the world to practice it too so they can be as happy and content as i am. Falun Dafa HAO!!!

    well thats it from me. bye for now

  344. Wahaha
    July 30th, 2008 at 14:45 | #344

    Oh, Jana, please.

    No1 wants to be an idiot to be happy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwVGjhNvnhQ

  345. specul8r
    July 30th, 2008 at 15:04 | #345

    Jana is now questioning my ethics. I used to be called “ccp spy” and now my ethics. Does she and Falun Gone has clean ethics? 🙂

    I am embarassed? Good joke. I have a good paying job, harmonious family, I am proud of what I do and thank you for your concern. 🙂 You want to trace me where I work so you can harass me? 🙂

    When you cannot debate, you start attacking personnel ethics like your Goners always do and always repeat the same over and over. You are absolutely confused. Stop learning all those garbage. It’s bad for your heart and your mind.

  346. KungfuPanda
    July 31st, 2008 at 02:35 | #346

    Re specul8r #304

    I couldn’t agree more with every bit of your comments #304. I like you other comments too. You’re great!

  347. KungfuPanda
    July 31st, 2008 at 03:04 | #347

    Jana,

    As a Westerner, you have being doing very hard to defend the Eastern religion Falun Dafa. However, some of the unethical and deceptive practices will not be accepted nor tolerated in the west. Whether intentionally or been cheated, it’s not worth your time. Your local community will appreciate very much to have you on board to fight corruption, and big government spending.

    As you mentioned “What will happen during and or after the Olympics? This affair is coming to a close very soon.” (#227). Wish for peace and pray that nobody gets hurt.

  348. specul8r
    July 31st, 2008 at 04:44 | #348

    @KungfuPanda,

    🙂 Peace.

  349. Wukailong
    July 31st, 2008 at 05:44 | #349

    @Admin: Could this thread either be closed, or some different way of showing latest comments be devised? It’s hard to see what’s going on in other threads because of all the comments here.

    To people commenting here: Don’t take it personally. 🙂

  350. July 31st, 2008 at 06:23 | #350

    re KungfuPanda “SaysHowever, some of the unethical and deceptive practices will not be accepted nor tolerated in the west.”

    There are no unethical practices or deceptive practices in FAlun Gong we are open. The fact that US congress, the Eurpeon parliements, the United Kingdom , Canada, New Zealand and Australian Gov’ts have all passed resolutions and motions to call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in China shows clearly how mcuh the west suports Falun Gong You are simply once again spouting Ccp lies and propoganda to further you persecution against Falun Gong. At least have the balls to admit you guys.

  351. KungfuPanda
    August 1st, 2008 at 04:01 | #351

    Re Jana

    Read the title of this blog to find out the unethical practice of Falun Gong.

    Also, “The Wikipedia entry about Falun Gong is heavily biased…. Now, this article is guarded by a bunch of FG devotees who undo all attempts to introduce a more balanced view into the text.” Without balanced view, it’s PROPAGANDA! and unethical too.

    Remember, CCP is just one of the many organizations who sees Falun Gong as a threat to society. Go to find it out for yourself. Beside black and which, there are millions other colors that may not go well with Falun Gong. You keep on alleging those who criticize Falun Gong as CCP spies is unethical too.

    Google “falun bait and switch” to find out the deceptive practices of Falun Gong.

    Oh, what happened to your Falun Gong friends? Are they supposed to help you here? Maybe not, because “……was not authorized to speak for the group”.

    Unless you can shut down the mighty internet, it’s impossible to put a lid on Falun Gong’s dark side.

  352. August 1st, 2008 at 04:24 | #352

    re panda bears,

    Thast is simply not true . The only organisation that has any problem with FAlun Gong are the illigitmate Ccp.

    Even President Bush who says he will go to the games invited all the disidents to the white house yesterday and this was done to snub the Ccp whilea t teh same time out them on notice . These crimes against humanity will nort be hidden any longer,

    NEW YORK TIMES
    China Angered by U.S. Lobbying on Rights
    By ANDREW JACOBS

    BEIJING — In response to President Bush’s meeting with prominent Chinese dissidents at the White House, Beijing on Thursday sharply condemned Washington for interfering in China’s domestic affairs and accused American legislators of politicizing the Olympics.

    Shortly after Mr. Bush held talks Tuesday with the five dissidents — Harry Wu, Wei Jingsheng, Rebiya Kadeer, Sasha Gong and Bob Fu — the U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution urging China to honor its pledge to improve human rights before the Games, which begin Aug. 8. The resolution passed 419 to 1.

    During a news conference Thursday, Liu Jianchao, a Foreign Ministry spokesman, described the House measure as “odious conduct” and said the United States should stop “making use of so-called religious and human rights” issues to score political points, Agence France-Presse reported.

    The Chinese authorities also remained resolute about their decision to maintain a firewall on the Internet and limit access for journalists covering the Olympics. Senior officials with the International Olympic Committee, or IOC, have said they were stunned to learn Wednesday that Beijing’s longstanding pledge to provide foreign reporters with unfettered access would not be honored.

    Kevan Gosper, a former Olympic athlete from Australia and the chief of the IOC press commission in Beijing, said he had been assured that visiting journalists would have no limitations on their Internet use during the Games. But he said Wednesday that other IOC officials, whom he did not identify, had agreed to let some Web sites be blocked. Olympic organizers say they are trying to convince the government to reconsider its decision to limit access.

    In an interview Thursday, Sun Weide, a spokesman for the Beijing Olympic organizing committee, said reporters arriving in China in the coming week should not expect access to sites that discuss topics such as Tibet, Taiwanese independence or the Falun Gong, a banned religious group that China has deemed an “evil cult.” Such sites, he said, “contain information that is in breach of Chinese law.”

    He also stressed that the number of banned sites were few — although he declined to provide a precise number — and he insisted that reporters would have no limitations in covering athletic events. Mr. Sun said the authorities would not monitor the personal e-mails of reporters at the Olympics’ main press center. “We always have been following international law on such matters,” he said.

    Check this site out too, the Ccp days are numbered

    A reporters guide to all the Chinese labour camps.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS253250+31-Jul-2008+PRN20080731

    As we speak WE are sending this out to all media WORLDWIDE …

    Guide Home | Tuanhe | Beijing Municipal Women’s | Qingdao | Qinhuangdao | Tilanqiao | Masanjia | Jianxin | The Essential Questions

    by Clive Ansley
    As spectators and reporters travel to China in August to attend the Olympic Games, they will witness the world’s top athletes compete. What they will not witness are the hundreds of thousands of Chinese people languishing in labor camps nearby, many detained for exercising the same fundamental rights we take for granted every day.

    Some of those traveling to Beijing may have heard stories of these Chinese gulags, but where are they located? Who is detained there? And what goes on inside?

    These are some of the questions this guide seeks to answer, drawing particular attention to the plight of adherents of the Falun Gong, peaceful religious believers who for nine years have suffered one of the largest, most brutal campaigns of persecution that the Chinese people have seen in decades.

    Since the first allegations of harrowing torture methods and deaths in custody emerged in 1999 through to more recent evidence of organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience, CIPFG members have repeatedly requested permission to enter China and investigate claims of abuse. Yet, on an equal number of occasions, these requests have been denied.

    And that is partially the importance of this guide—for it provides an opportunity for journalists traveling to China to take this rare opportunity of greater access to the country to conduct an investigation of their own.

    At the same time, while we realize the possibility of reporters being able to enter these camps is slim, their ability to remember and give voice to innocent Falun Gong adherents and other civil rights defenders who suffer torture and death only miles from where athletes celebrate victory is not. For giving them a voice is not only our duty as responsible global citizens, it is also the true realization of the Olympic spirit.

    –Clive Ansley, July 30, 2008

    CLIVE ANSLEY is North American President of CIPFG. He is a lawyer and former Canadian professor of Chinese History and Law, Mr. Ansley practiced and taught law in China where he is Advising Professor at Shanghai’s Fudan University and was appointed Visiting Professor at Silicone Lake University in 2003. Mr. Ansley has litigated more than 300 cases in China. He is now China Country Monitor for Lawyers’ Rights Watch, Canada.

    You guys are going to be really busy now .

  353. August 1st, 2008 at 05:49 | #353

    RE Kungfupanda’s slander.

    This is who we are see article below…… i saw a documentry last night on the Ming Dynasty and the Emperor had take power over the last emperor with violence. His aim was build the forbidden city and he had to take his own life in the end like a coward because, the people were rising up becasue there was no money left for food the people were starving and peasants were worked to death. IN short the emperor was a bad person for murdering the previous ruler and his greed to be remembered incurred the wrath of the Gods in the heavens. After 20 years of famine, disease and disaster the chinese populace rose up and demanded the self imposed emperor take his life. IN those days when disaster hit ,the Chinese and all races believed it was because of humankinds wrong doing.
    Usually the rules not looking after thier people well andputting themsleves first.
    The same it is with today. Disasters have hit the Chinese people over. and the heavens are telling the chinese people to turn their backs on the Ccp. WE dont wish for any disasters for the Chinese people so we urge them to quit the Ccp. Just because we have computers and so called science does not mean the Gods do not exist anymore.

    China has had 10 plagues in this year alone

    NO where else has had that many. The writing is on the wall. Learn from your past mistakes your past culture and look to your wonderful future. Turn you back on the Ccp and know that Falun Dafa is good.This is your only hope.

    Despite Nine Years of Persecution, Falun Gong Persists with Peaceful and Levelheaded Response

    By Fei Ming

    (Clearwisdom.net) We read new stories about the persecution each day on Minghui/Clearwisdom. The stories are sent by practitioners living in mainland China, despite government Internet censorship. There are several stories about Falun Gong practitioners being brutally tortured in China almost every day. This has continued unabated since the Chinese Communist Party began its official persecution of Falun Gong in July 1999.

    Over the last nine years, however, there has not been a single case of Falun Gong practitioners responding violently; none have sought vengeance against CCP officials. This fact alone speaks for the peaceful, levelheaded, and non-violent nature of Falun Gong practitioners. Practitioners will continue to respond in this fashion until the persecution completely ends, just as they have for the last nine years.

    There have been two recent cases that shook the Chinese community. One was a riot in Weng’An; the other was the murder of a Shanghai policeman by a young man from Beijing. There have been many cheers and much support of the two incidents on Internet forums. As the CCP extends its persecution from Falun Gong to other members of the public, there will be more and more violence in China, some of which may even destroy the regime. All of this was caused by the CCP’s corruption, greed, and brutality.

    In contrast to the two incidents mentioned above, Falun Gong practitioners’ resistance is completely non-violent. This is because everything a practitioner does is guided by the principle of Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance. When clarifying the facts, practitioners are merely practicing their right to free speech, as granted by the Constitution. They even clarify the facts to the perpetrators of the persecution. They also encourage the public to withdraw from the CCP and its subordinate organizations. As cultivators, they are saving sentient beings. As citizens, they are walking the most peaceful path to rid China of tyranny.

    Of course, Falun Gong has no desire for political power. We can take a look at Taiwan, which shares the same heritage as mainland China. In Taiwan, Falun Gong benefits society, and society in turn supports Falun Gong. Falun Gong has not been involved in any political dispute. This type of peaceful existence of Falun Gong will happen in China, too, once the CCP is eliminated. In the last nine years, all of the issues related to Falun Gong can be attributed to the CCP’s irrational persecution. Falun Gong practitioners need to clarify the facts and resist the persecution precisely because the persecution exists. By peacefully guarding their rights, Falun Gong practitioners are also guarding the rights of all Chinese people. All patriotic Chinese people should stand beside Falun Gong and work with the practitioners to end the nine-year persecution.

  354. specul8r
    August 1st, 2008 at 05:59 | #354

    @jana,

    >>> Even President Bush who says he will go to the games invited all the disidents to the white house yesterday and this was done to snub the Ccp whilea t teh same time out them on notice

    You know what? Bush did not invite Falun Gone leader Li Hongzhi? Why? Bush doesn’t even think he is that much important? Also, did you notice Harry Wu? If he is collaborating with China as alleged by our friend Jana, why would Bush had invited him?

    I want to see how China is going to welcome Bush during Olympics. If China has “forbearance”, they will not let a few others spoil the Olympic games and move on but if they acted with the same vengeance as Falun Gone, then they can make Bush looks bad during the Olympic games. We should keep an eye on Bush in China how he is going to be treated and report back to Jana.

  355. August 1st, 2008 at 06:12 | #355

    Seconding Wukailong #349. Holy crap man. 354+ comments. Mostly inane “angels on pin” stuff. My god is bigger than your god nonsense.

    Jana – You’ve done one service for me. You have firmly entrenched in my mind that FLG is of the same sort of intellectual pithing as say Scientology. Thank you.

    On the whole, this thread represents either the best argument for the 18+ rule or the best argument against such a rule. For – because no child should be polluted by such stuff or stuff like this. Against – because a child’s best defense against myths and lies is knowledge and critical thinking.

    So, admin, please. If this thread can be closed or its comments removed from the feed on the right hand side (currently several metres above this comment window), I would appreciate it done. 🙂

  356. specul8r
    August 1st, 2008 at 06:21 | #356

    >>> As cultivators, they are saving sentient beings <<<

    but sending their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters to hell.

    >>> We can take a look at Taiwan, which shares the same heritage as mainland China. In Taiwan, Falun Gong benefits society, and society in turn supports Falun Gong. Falun Gong has not been involved in any political dispute. <<<

    How much do you know about Black Gang infiltrated Kuomingtang? How much do you know about money laundering activities under The Democratic Progressive Party? Have you seen the Taiwan politicians having fist fight during the congressional meeting? Don’t tell me you don’t see that news in the western news. Don’t make biased news when you should be independent news reporter as your Epochtimes newspaper claimed to be. Just because Taiwan allow Falun Gone to be practiced freely, does it means they are supporting your spiritual belief? Not so. There are many Taiwanese do not want to see your group invading their lands either. Many politicians are using your group as political pawn and supporting you.

  357. August 1st, 2008 at 06:24 | #357

    I will now close this thread per readers’ request.

  358. August 1st, 2008 at 06:25 | #358

    Mutant Jedi , you cannot supress or control this blog its not yours… And i kindly would ask that the admin does not remove these comments above any window or close this thread but let it die out naturally. Mutant I see now why you want them removed as they actually show your group up for the propogandists you are.

    Spectular8 you said”We should keep an eye on Bush in China how he is going to be treated and report back to Jana.”

    I ask you whose is WE?

    The Ccp has alrady gone ape ove r Mr Bushs whitehouse lunch and Mr Bush has said he will continue to bug the ccp them over human rights absues including Falun Gong….

    BTW Mr Li Hongzhi would not go….. He is not interested in politics at all…

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