There appears to have been a clash involving riot police in Huizhou. I will provide these images and early hearsay reports, but I want to remind everyone: be careful with any unconfirmed reports. As the Weng’an riots proved, rumors are not only often wrong, they are also potentially very dangerous. As soon as we have credible media reports (and I expect that we will), I will make sure they are included in this story.
UPDATE: About 12 hours after this post first went up, the Chinese media is delivering the first official version of events, see here. This version is different from the initial rumor in one specific detail: local police confirm the driver died, but insist it was in an accident. Very similar to the Weng’an riots in that sense. I trust we’ll see a thorough investigation from the province; Wang Yang, the party secretary for Guangdong, is known for his liberal take on government and politics.
Huizhou is a city in Guangdong province. The rumors (连接) tell us traffic police blocked a private minivan-bus, and asked for 100 RMB in toll. The driver refused to give any, and a confrontation followed, leading to the driver’s death. Rumors say local police offered private compensation to the victim’s family, but they refused and are demanding public investigation. Subsequently, a group from the driver’s home village in Hunan province, including alleged organized criminal gangs from Hunan, arrived in Huizhou. There are rumors of two police officers killed, in addition to the property damage seen below:
As of right now, this topic is blocked on mainland discussion boards. On Tianya, posters are again “poking up” other unrelated posts about Huizhou.
bianxiangbianqiao says
Buxi,
Thanks for the info.
“…traffic police blocked a private minivan-bus, and asked for 100 RMB in toll…”
I wonder whether this is routine and legal procedure.
Last time I was in China the society seemed peaceful and functioning smoothly.
FOARP says
Why are they called ‘mass incidents’ and not ‘riots’?
Buxi says
@FOARP,
Because the decision to ultimately riot or not isn’t the point. “Mass incidents” are significant to the government, period, because they suggest popular discontent.
@BXBQ:
I think Chinese society is still largely peaceful and functioning smoothly, but I don’t need to tell you China’s a huge country. And unfortunately, the reach of the central government is remarkably weak in many rural areas. These sorts of incidents are unfortunately not at all uncommon. Probably at least 2-3 a year on the scale of Weng’an, and 10+ a year on the scale of this clash in Huizhou.
pug_ster says
I’m surprised that it happened in Guangdong providence and not one of the poorer providences.
Buxi says
Oh, and about the toll… there was another story/riot reported in the state press just last week. I don’t remember the details off-hand, but in trying to avoid a police road-block, the driver drove his truck into a river and ultimately died. The driver’s fellow villagers rioted after inadequate compensation was offered. I believe government officials were also punished.
Local government officials in rural China are “dirt emperors”. There is no law in their areas except for their word. A more open media is needed to reveal their crimes, and a better legal system is needed to punish them for their actions.
MutantJedi says
About the older story Buxi mentioned in #5…
Why would the state have to compensate when the individual choses a reckless action? If something similar happened here, I would expect the state to even go after the estate of the deceased for the cost of cleaning up his mess.
Unless, of course, the road block is illegal. There is a difference between collecting a toll and extortion.
Buxi says
@MutantJedi,
This is one of the things I really don’t comprehend about modern China. It really seems to be a common trend, not just in government/civilian encounters, but in just about any scenario. In the West, people wouldn’t contemplate paying any kind of financial compensation unless they were actually responsible or negligent. The courts can arbitrate that issue.
But in China right now… the closest explanation I can give is, we’re seeing sort of a merging between Confucian values with Western tort law. Even if you’re not actually negligent in a legal sense, as long as you feel ethically responsible, you need to pay compensation. The state seems to encourage this sort of settlement, too. Can someone more familiar with imperial Chinese history tell us if this is how things used to be…?
In Weng’an, for example, the family of the drowned girl also received a healthy compensation. (They were actually offered the compensation before the riot, but they disagreed about the amount.) The compensation was raised by reaching into the budgets of various government departments, and even the local school. In the US/Canada, that’s hush money and definitely suggests legal guilt. In China, that doesn’t seem to be the case. Even if the girl did commit suicide, the government and school “failed” in their moral responsibility to her.
And you hear the same thing about work-related accidents too. If your employee dies “in an accident”, it doesn’t matter if you were legally negligent… you’re expected to pay up and take care of the employee’s family.
Oh, another kind of outrageous incident I just read about yesterday… somewhere in western China, a young Chinese businessman checked into a hotel, and then died. As far as anyone can tell, it was due to natural causes. That’s usually where the story ends… but the family of the businessman have been nearly rioting in front of the hotel every day since, demanding financial compensation from the hotel. And they’ll probably get it.
I don’t know. Again, I’m unclear on this topic, so look forward to more information from others.
FOARP says
@Buxi – We call this “hush money”
eswn says
The version of the story in Oriental Daily (HK) is that the arrestee was a taxi motorcyclist (搭客仔 in local dialect), and the amount demanded from him was 200 RMB. When he refused to pay, he was taken into custody.
BMY says
@pug_ster
“I’m surprised that it happened in Guangdong providence and not one of the poorer providences.”
There are huge population of migrate workers in GuangDong province. It’s too often to see clashes between different gang groups(sometimes hundreds of people involved on each side) based on different provincial origin.also clashes between powerful gangs and local authorities. This is often why local Cantonese people blame migrants from other provinces for high crime rate.
It’s no surprise if something like this happens.
Buxi says
@eswn,
Oops, my version of the rumor said the same thing, I just guessed wrong on what 搭客仔 meant in Cantonese.
chorasmian says
@Buxi
搭客仔means the one use his private motorcycle to do the TAXI business WITHOUT passenger transport license, even without driver license in some area.
In my opinion, this kind of incident is unavoidable when China still struggle to balance Confucian value system and Western legislation system.
http://www.privatelaw.com.cn/new2004/shtml/20051018-092708.htm
chorasmian says
@BXBQ
With about a quarter of the population in the world and extraordinary population density, the number is far less than the proportion it should be. So I think the situation is not that bad.
Charles Liu says
I remember after the Rodney King beating, the 1992 Los Angeles Riot was not labeled as “mass incident”, or protest, or linked to any pent up anger towards the US government. Basically a similiar incident in US is viewed it as simply criminal activity instead of being used as some pretext to fault the US government.
Same thing with the Tibet riot earlier, western media seldom covered the victims of the riot. I had to read about the 5 shop girls torched alive by Tibet rioters on anti-CNN.
Rioting and killing police is something we American will never prescribe for ourselves as “freedom”, “rights”, “democracy” of any kind. Yet when it happens to China, it is rationalized and justified as such.
bianxiangbianqiao says
chorasmian,
Your are right. When I was in China, I never feel in danger. People seem to be laid back and relaxed.
BMY says
“If your employee dies “in an accident”, it doesn’t matter if you were legally negligent… you’re expected to pay up and take care of the employee’s family.”
It is so true. I still remember one incident when I was very young.
A worker in the company my father was working for committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree on a river bank. The suicide had nothing to do with the company. The wife came with little kids demanded compensation. The company ended up paying a big portion of the family monthly living cost till the kids grew up and also agreed to employ the two kids when they grew up.
This has been the practice I think since PRC founded. Because under the old socialist system ,all workers were attached to their work units. The work units are responsible to look after every needs of the workers: medicare,schooling,childcare , even marrige etc. Very often, we see the disputs between husband and wife is put on to work unit management by the husband/wife to look for help.
After a accident death of a worker, the company still has some responsibility to look after the rest of the family. This is also due to there was no social welfare or insurance systems outside the work units system.
After the collapse of the old system(still exist largely in state controlled work units in present days), there is still extension in the society and people’s mind.
Of course, the Western legislation system also plays part into these scenarios.
just my thought
MutantJedi says
@Buxi #7,
I understand what you’re saying but I can imagine an unfortunate side effect of this practice – there’s money in rioting. Incite a riot to coerce payment. It makes the accusation of the Weng’an riot to be caused by criminal elements more credible. It also makes it more difficult to discern the merit in any “mass incident.” Is it out of morality or money?
Jay says
Anyone that says that China is a peaceful society hasn’t lived in China long.
heiheianan says
It seems that recently in some “mass incidents” the criminal gangs act as a counterweight to the police, either causing most of the violence, enflaming the crowd, or using the heightened sense of arousal as a reason to show their prowess. I can only use the term “heightened sense of arousal” because of the gender imbalance in the countryside, you know those gentlemen doubtlessly have a lot of pent up frustration.
I am interested in FOARP comment about why it is a “mass incident” and not a “riot”. The context in which the media terms violence as one and not the other varies so much.
I recently heard an interesting theory that violence was a commodity, and if this commodity belonged only to the state, that could be deep trouble. But if the citizens can get some of the commodity for themselves, it scares the state, scares other citizens, but ultimately provides a bit of threatened “muscle” for the non-violent protesters, i.e. “deal with us or else the wolves will take over and they didn’t come “. So I wonder if the criminal element, though termed as thugs and lawless, etc, actually makes the middle – the lawful protesters, seem more reasonable? In that case, the commodity becomes like gold. Just some thinking I’ve been doing in lieu of push ups, haha.
I lived through several such actions in “democratic” Ecuador, so I am always curious about why people think that just bringing western style “democracy” and voting booths to China will magically cure people’s discontent and stop the mass actions? Violence and a lack of western style “democracy” aren’t so neatly intertwined, are they?
chorasmian says
Here is a pic of an acrobatic taxi motorcyclist (搭客仔) and 5 passengers on a motorcycle with 70cc engine, and it is not uncommon in China.
http://attachments.motorfans.com.cn/day_080322/9407374_yghadMbuO16e.jpg
heiheianan says
Oh, I just read Charles Liu’s comments #14, he speaks to the same sentiment I somewhat try to address.
bianxiangbianqiao says
I sense a touch of Chinese clannishness in this incident, Hunan versus Guangdong, migrants against indigenous people. Chairman Mao’s hometown folks are well known for being tough and banding together against outsiders. The police might have been viewed as oppressive locals against vulnerable outsiders.
BMY says
@Jay,
I think it’s really depends which part of China or which part of no-China you live?
I lived in China for 30 years and my family, my wife’s family nobody had been robbed and none of our houses got broken in. My wife walked from her night school at late night all the time.
Now we’ve lived in the one of the best western cities only few years, I got robbed twice in daytime, our house got broken in once, I often hear gunshots at night. we don’t walk in the dark late night.
I know some part of Shenzhen and Huizhou are pretty danger than my home town.
BMY says
@BXBQ,
haha, both chairman Mao’s home town and Chairman Deng’s home town folks are well known for being tough and banding together against outsiders. They are the two major worker forces in GuangDong to produce everything for this planet.
no intention to offend the comrades from these two provinces
Wukailong says
@Charles Liu: Personally, I don’t see the Los Angeles riots as merely some criminal activity perpetrated by evil men. While I was too young to remember them at the time, they certainly pointed to a problem in US society that wasn’t addressed by politicians (actually “problem” is too kind – it was racism, pure and simple, and the situation black people were/are subject to). If we always stand by the majority and condemn people because they are violent, then what can of society will we get?
Of course these things can get out of hand, and violence should never be encouraged, but I’ve never seen one incident like this where there were no reason at all for the violence. Ditto for American Indians fighting against their burial grounds (don’t remember the name of that incident) being turned into a golf course.
Buxi says
@Wukailong,
I think we can all agree on the reason for riots like this: the lack of a credible legal system.
If the motorcycle rider knew that he would eventually get to debate the issue in front of an objective, professional judge, he might have paid the fine while promising the police officer a lawsuit. But he had no confidence that would happen, so rather than paying and “trusting the system”, he decided to run for it. And this is fundamentally the cause of the 1992 LA Riots, of course… a specific community in the United States decided they could no longer trust the legal system, which had been proven fundamentally flawed and unfair in their eyes.
When you don’t trust the system, why would you respect it?
@chorasmian,
I agree, I think China is doing very well compared to other developing countries. (Do you guys realize how many cops are killed in India every year? Go search on Google.) But if we compare to where China was 20 years ago, we are doing very poorly.
I think we’re stuck in a transition phase. 30 years ago, no one had a legal system they could trust, but the vast majority of average Chinese really did “trust the Party”. In this case, the local Party chapter would have addressed the motorcycle rider’s problem. Today, you can’t trust the Party (especially the local Party). There’s no one the motorcycle rider could’ve turned to for help. We need a more reliable legal system, and we need a more open media.
I think the Yang Jia (Shanghai cop killer) case is a great way to prove the legal system is fair. I hope that trial is made public.
yo says
@Wukailong
I would also like to add that “reasons” doesn’t imply justification. Korean shop keeps got the brunt of the attack, and it got started because rodney king got beat up by the cops, it’s almost a non-sequitur. While there was tension between the two groups(blacks and Koreans), it doesn’t justify the rioters actions in my opinion, nor does it justify what I call their opportunist actions by attacking Korean shopkeeps because of the brutal actions taken by the police. The rioters might of had their reasons, but they threw their moral high ground right out the window with what happened.
FOARP says
@Charles Liu – The various incidents of the LA riots may have been addressed as criminal activity, but all reports on the riots also carried the Rodney King story and mentioned it as the chief cause of the riots. All major news services also published the results of the inquiry into the riots which described the LAPD as acting like ‘an army of occupation’ and the claims of black community leaders that the LAPD was basically ‘LA’s biggest gang’.
As for western media not mentioning innocent deaths during the riots, all the BBC stories I looked at which covered the riots in Tibet in the week after the initial incident mentioned the claim of 13 innocent people stabbed or burned to death by rioters, go have a look yourself:
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=ns&q=tibet&start=13&scope=all&link=next
FOARP says
@BMY – Longhua (the suburb of Shenzhen I used to live in) was particularly dangerous, I remember at least three or four murders being reported whilst I was there, including the stabbing to death of a KTV girl that was witnessed by a friend of mine – it resulted in a fight with literally dozens on each side, the few police men who went to the scene were powerless to do anything.
FOARP says
@Buxi – So were the events in Tibetan areas a ‘mass incident’ showing discontent with the government?
Buxi says
@FOARP,
Of course, that’s clearly part of what fueled those events.
But there are clearly differences as well. I’m reasonably sure none of the rioters in Huizhou were attacking people of a certain race on the street. I’ve always said, if the rioters in Tibet had attacked symbols of the government/state… many Chinese wouldn’t have felt outrage. We might have event felt sympathy. But the rioters in Tibet didn’t attack symbols of the government/state; they attacked symbols of the nation, they attacked civilians + property they thought represented China.
I believe we already discussed this in the Weng’an riots threads.
Buxi says
As updated above, the English-language China Daily has released a story on Huizhou. But unfortunately, there’s nothing in the Chinese press that I have seen yet.
During the Weng’an riots, we saw something similar. The English-language China Daily was consistently ahead of the other state newspapers, as in 2-3 days ahead.
JD says
I’m not clear what represents “credible media” with respect to such stories. Does that mean an official version of events? It seems so. Some rumours are indeed outrageous, though others are far more credible than the officially-approved reports.
ali baba says
恻隐之心, 善恶之心, 恭敬之心, 是非之心, 是为”四端”
The foundation of 孟子 Meng Zi teaching is human beings are born good,as oppose to animals,which kill for food.That is why,among Chinese culture,to accuse another person “an animal” is a very humiliating term,much worst than “goons and thugs”.In western culture,”you are an animal” is often used to compliment someone who are aggressive and brave,dare to win.
But in Confucius-Meng Zi teaching,western culture’s folk hero Robin Hood,who robbed the rich to give to the poor,would always remain a thief,a thug.
恻隐之心
All human beings are compassionate,we all feel sad when fellow human beings suffer.During the 12-May Sichuen earthquake,support pours into China across the globe,regardless of difference of the color of skin or the difference of political believes.
If Meng Zi is to be the prime minister of China today,would he conduct his government the same way the current Communist government is treating its citizens?Would he use para-military police to round up grieving parents,who have lost thousands of children during the quake,and accuse them of disrupting olympic torch relay?
The definite answer shall be NO.Meng Zi would have taken great care to look after his people,would have never let so many corrupted officials to build so many TOFU school buildings.In fact,Meng Zi would have dismiss the whole government long time ago.
善恶之心
Meng Zi teaches that all human beings can differentiate good from evil,and the desire to do good and to condemn evil is hardwired into human mind.But the Marxist Leninist regime is teaching its young citizens (from primary schools up to universities) to hate and to annihilate “American Imperilist Pigs”,to carry on the revolution of the proletariats(???),to learn from revolution of Cuba and North Korea,and ,at the same time,all the top government’s officials,estimated more than 1,500,000 of them, send their wives and children to live in the US of A,Canada,and Australia.
It is of no wonder that after Marxist Leninist revolutionary teaching,the young Chinese students are extremely confused.They will never understand,why,the teacher,the government,on the one hand, claiming that US of A,is the mother of all evil,is to be nuked,to be wiped off the face of the earth,on the other hand,try their best to get the green card,to send their families,plus the wealth from corruption,into the US of A.Out of frustration,and over the murder of a 15 years old class mate,on 28-June,on the eve of the birthday of CCP,thousands of 13 to 15 years old high school kids,attacked their local police building and burned it down,plus many police cars.And ten of thousands of their parents,teachers,relatives,stood alongside,protecting them.In short,the students,and their parents,have taken revolution into their own hand.
CCP high officials,Mr.Hu and Mr.Wen,had Chinese education department adopted Confucius-Meng Zi teaching,as Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Singapore,Malaysia governments have done,there will be different outcome.
You may ask,if Meng Zi is alive today,what would be his judgement on the 28-June Guizhou students riot? Again,my answer is the same,with Confucius-Meng Zi teaching,
民为贵,社稷次之,君为轻 all the law enforcing officials,the police,soldiers,magistrate,including the rulers,the emperor,would always put the people’s livelihood at priority one,they are there to look after the people,to help the people,to punish whoever harm the people,to rip off the people,to cause people to commit suicide.
After 59 years of Marxist Leninist rule,Chinese society has become the opposite to what Confucius-Meng Zi ’s idea of a good and fair society,for ordinary citizens to live and to prosper.Marxist Leninist have turn Chinese communist government into a monster government,into the realm of Holliwood’s horror movies,outwit the likes of Alfred Hitchcock,John Carpenter,……
I think Marxist Leninst teaching has done enough harm to this proud and ancient people,lets resurrect the spirit,and the teaching of Confucius-Meng Zi before it is too late.
Quote:Buxi Says:
July 18th, 2008 at 5:34 am
@Wukailong,
I think we can all agree on the reason for riots like this: the lack of a credible legal system. Unquote.
To blame riots like this on “lack of a credible legal system”though it is not wrong,is also “scratching the boot to stop an itch”.The problem is much deeper than that.The problem is in 59 years of implementation of Marxist-leninst doctrine,the teaching of revolution and class struggle,to hate,to fight,to kill,to fire missiles at Taiwan,to drop nuclear bombs on the US of A.
Buxi,with young people who harbour so much hate in their heart,do you think China is going to have a peaceful society?
I very much doubt so.
Buxi says
@ali baba,
I actually partly agree with you. There is a lot of “revolution” history still being taught, and many young Chinese are still raised to believe that when the world doesn’t seem right, you have to take immediate action to destroy it.
But I do not agree with much of the rest. Teaching about “American imperialist pigs”? Dropping nuclear bombs on the USA? I received my education in the ’80s, I don’t remember anything about “American imperialist pigs” in school.
The truth is, we have the benefit of comparing China to many other countries and societies around the world. China’s current situation isn’t so unique. There are many wealthy countries with established rule of law, but without Mencius-Confucius theories of morality, that can avoid riots like this. There are many poor countries that, regardless of what kind of morality they offer (some are very religious) are filled with riots just like this.
I think China has already discarded almost all of its Marxist-Leninist doctrine. It’s not in the media, and it’s barely in the schools. The next step is to focus on development of rule of law.
ali baba says
7月14日中国国防大学防务学院院长朱成武对由外交部组织、来自香港的外国记者表示：假如美国军队干预台湾海峡冲突，并对中国进行军事打击，中国没有能力对美国打赢常规武器战争，根据战争逻辑，军力较弱一方必须使出最后武器，因此中国无可避免的将使用核子武器。中国方面为此准备西安以东城市全部被毁灭。与此同时，美国也要准备好几百座城市被中国毁灭。
The above press release by PLA general Chu chen-wu may not represent China’s official policy,but if you visit http://www.china.com military forum,www.sina.com,www.people.com forums,very often many bloggers are highly anti-USA and anti-west.
WHY? Chinese,or Han,to be more specific,suffered extreme unhumane suppression since the fall of Song dynastry during the Mongols invasion in 1200 AD.During the Mongols invasion,the ethnic Han population was at one stage being reduced from 10 millions to less than 4 millions.And Han were put at the bottom of the social rank.
After Ming dynastry,Han suffered during the Manchu’s rule.Until Dr.Sun Yet-seng revolution and establish of Republic of China.
For 800 years,since Kublai Khan time,chinese people,Han included,have never enjoyed Human Rights,in the ways that western and modern people enjoyed.
民为贵,社稷次之,君为轻
For 800 years,the rulers,the bosses,the officials all want to be on top of the people,to cheat the people,to rip off the people.
Quote: “The next step is to focus on development of rule of law.” Unquote.
Buxi,to be honest,it takes more than a few “rule of law” to right all these wrongs.
deltaeco says
@ali baba
“Buxi,to be honest,it takes more than a few “rule of law” to right all these wrongs.”
But it is a good start.
CLC says
@ali baba
“7月14日中国国防大学… …”
That was in 2005 and he was disciplined by the PLA.
BMY says
@alibaba
I am confused about “WHY? Chinese,or Han,…….during the Mongols invasion in 1200 AD.During the Mongols ………Until Dr.Sun Yet-seng revolution and establish of Republic of China.” want to approve what point?
India was ruled by Turkic-Mongols then British for hundreds of years. Arab and Balkan Slavs was ruled by Turk for hundreds of years. Turkic sibo was ruling China in Tang. All these ruling, conquering ,killing in the long human history has something to do with we are talking about here?
I am very confused about the history and today .
But I do beleive all schools should teach KongZi and Mengzi since year 1 and adults should go to the reading hall to discuss every Sunday and you can be a teacher in one of them(no joking). Then our society would be more harmony and less riot like this happen.
BTW, do you know where I can download PDF 四书五经？ I would love to read . Thanks
Buxi says
@BMY,
Give that a try:
http://www.orsoon.com/Soft/7089.html
There are also a lot of places where you can read online.
I love the idea of schools teaching Kongzi and Mengzi to us adults. I think there is a lot of progress in that direction already. In the last 2-3 years, TV shows discussing classic works are everywhere.
CCTV started the trend I think when it broadcast Yu Dan (于丹) discussing the works of Confucius in 2006. She followed up with discussion of Zhuangzi… and now there are at least 2-3 similar programs every night. I know Jiangsu and Shanghai TV all have similar programs, because I’ve watched them. I suspect other network stations probably do too.
If you haven’t, you should buy either the book or the DVD of Yu Dan talking about KongZi. She might not be completely right, but it’s a great topic to focus on.
FOARP says
Another incident:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/chinese/simp/hi/newsid_7510000/newsid_7515800/7515894.stm
LACJ says
This thread is winding down, but I do want to mention that I view claims that gangs are involved in these incidents (implicitly in an organized and goal-oriented way) as very suspect.
Why would they? I would assume many gangs do just fine between providing girls, drugs, and other illegal goods, and in most cases are relatively safe due to an informal truce with police if not in alliance. What possible purpose would lead them to run to the scene of a developing incident (remember they are never accused of creating the underlying thing that sparks the problem) and encouraging everyone to escalate?
It would be one thing if an incident followed a crackdown instead, but that is not the case in any of these recent stories.
FOARP: I was in Shenzhen not long ago and was told the crime problem is much better than a few years ago.
deltaeco says
@LACJ
“I view claims that gangs are involved in these incidents (implicitly in an organized and goal-oriented way) as very suspect.”
I agree. The last thing gang or organized crime members would like is publicity or raising public attention.
Is not good for business!
Those gang claims seems better aimed at discrediting the complains/injuries of normal people.
Chops says
Arrests in joint operation against organized crime in S China
“July 18 (Xinhua) — Police in southern China have arrested 1,664 people and seized illicit goods worth more than 118million HK dollars in a major joint operation against organized crime, Hong Kong police said Friday.
Police also seized more than 17 kilograms of ketamine, 13.7 kilograms of cocaine and various types of psychotropic drugs worth over 14.6 million HK dollars (1.87 million U.S. dollars) during the operation, which Hong Kong police said was aimed at illegal activities of triad societies and the organized crime syndicates, neutralizing cross-border crimes, and interdicting the criminals’ source of income.”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/19/content_8571115.htm
ali baba says
王秀楚所着《扬州十日记》
扬州十日是1645年发生在清军攻破扬州城后对城中平民进行大屠杀的事件. 当时的人们估计，有80万人死于这场屠杀。
Yang Zhou Ten Days,is a book written by Wang xiu-chu,a day by day account on the massacre of the Han civilians conducted by Manchu army in 1645,when the city of Yang Zhou was invaded.The death toll was roughly 800,000.
扬州变成了屠场，血腥恶臭弥漫，到处是肢体残缺的尸首，一切社会准则都不复存在了。扬州城那些因美丽而闻名的妇女们，愿意把她们自己献给清兵，最要紧的是用身体赎回她们的生命。逐渐地，一股疯狂席卷了入侵者。任何女人不论愿意还是不愿意，都有可能被抓住，被成群的士兵轮奸。与此同时，大屠杀仍然在继续。
Yang Zhou had become a killing field,the awful smell of blood was all over the city,corpse with limbs missing were everywhere,all the social rules and regulation was nonexistent.Those Yang Zhou women,famed for their beauty,willing to offer themself to the Chin’g soldiers,using their bodies as ransom,in exchange for their own life,is of highest urgency.Gradually,the invaders have gone fanatic.Any woman,regardless she liked it or not,probably could be captured and raped by groups of soldiers.At the same time,massacre had continued.
许多妇女被掠为战利品。几个星期后，当满人进入南京时，南明首都的市民们惊恐地看着旗人鞭下这些像“猪”一样排成长队的战利品. 同行的满人挑选出所有年龄在14到30岁之间，并且体态适中的女俘，一同归去。她们知道北方是怎样的一块不毛之地，因此当她们被带出新华门时，都可怜地啼哭起来。很多年后，直到康熙年间，在宁古塔（黑龙江）或蒙古附近的路人们还说见到过这些年龄已大，饱受欺辱的妇女。比如，一个汉人在东北见到过一个扬州口音、身穿兽皮的女人。他问她为什么会到这里来，但是她还未来得及回答，就被她的满族男人带走了。那时，东北地区男多女少
Many women were captured as trophies.Few weeks later,when Manchurian soldiers were entering the city of Nanking,the capital of South Ming Danasty,civilians were horrified to see women were”pigs like”,under the whips of Manchurian soldiers,all lined up in long procession,as war trophies.Then Manchurian soldiers would selected all the women aged between 14 to 30,with suitable body shapes,and took them to Manchuria.They all knew that North was a barren land,that was why they all cried pitifully when they were marched out of the city gate.Many years later,in the years of Emperor Kang Xi,these women,who suffered terrible abuse abd bully,were still to be seen in He Lung Jiang oe Mongolia.For example,a Han in North East had seen a woman wearing animal skin,spoke with Yang Zhou accent.He asked her why was she in North East,and was quickly taken away by her Manchurian master.
试想，不靠野蛮的武力征服，满 族怎能以６０万人征服１万万汉族人？辛亥革命时期，章太炎先生《讨满洲檄》列出满清统治者的十四大罪状，其第四大罪状是：“南畿有扬州之屠，嘉定之屠，江阴之屠；浙江有嘉兴之屠，金华之屠；广东有广州之屠；
Just think,the whole of Manchurians,with population of 600,000, how could they conquer 100 millions Han,if they did not use brutal and savage force?During the Xin hai revolution,mr. Zhang Tai-yen,had listed 14 sins commited by the Manchurian rulers,against the civilians of China.The No.4 sin was:”There was Yang Zhou massacre,Jia Din massacre,jiang yin massacre;zhejiang had jia xin massacre,jin hua massacre;Kwang Tung had Kwang zhou massacre;
Quote:
BMY Says:
July 19th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
@alibaba
I am confused about “WHY? Chinese,or Han,…….during the Mongols invasion in 1200 AD.During the Mongols ………Until Dr.Sun Yet-seng revolution and establish of Republic of China.” want to approve what point? Unquote.
Ali baba says: BMY,what I am trying to say is,since 1200 AD,Mongolian conquered Han chinese (as well as other minority groups),1640 AD,Manchurian conquered Han chinese(as well as other minority groups),until now,2008 AD,the Han chinese,plus other minority groups,for 800 plus long years,were being treated like dirt,like grass,like dogs,like rats.The folks,the 人民 ，without the teaching of Confucius-Meng-zi,have become rioters,become black society,murderers and kidnappers.
“亲亲而仁民，仁民而爱物。
We have to propagate Confucius teachings in every schools,so that every students has a good heart and does good deed every day.But at the same time,the rulers,our government,must also love the ordinary folks,the 人民 ,and then extend the love to all things China,its land,its water,its air ……ALL THINGS.
That means China needs 仁政 ,policy,and politic,based on LOVE.
BMY,can we guess when might be Chinese 仁政 coming our way?
I hope this post can make you less confused.
BMY says
@Alibaba
Thanks for telling the history of Yang Zhou Ten Days. .
Regarding the massacres, I don’t think they were much to do with ethnic. It was more to do with then the old days, the barbarian days. It’s too easy to pick up countless similar massacres in the history.
Let’s say one long time ago: In 260BC, the battle of ChangPing(长平之战），400，000 Zhao troops surrendered to Qin Army. All the 400,000 troops got slaughtered via buried in life by Qin soldiers.
Let’s say one more than 100 years ago: In 1864, Qing army, which was made up by ethnic han soldiers from Hunan and Aanhui provinces, battlede in NanJing , the captial of rebelling TaiPingTianGuo, there were more than 100,000 residents included many women and children got slaughtered by Qing army.
In 1912, during the republic revolution, in Xi’An, There were 20,000 eight banner residents including women and children got slaughtered by the revolution army.
Then we know after 1912, there were endless wars. How many people died? I think we all know too many.
Were grass root people not treated like dirt before 1200AD mongols came? We all know it’s not true.
My point is “were being treated like dirt,like grass,like dogs,like rats” is much more than 800 years and the before 1200AD was no different. It’s not much to do with monguls or Manchurians conquering. their conquering were just part of the many similarities
Also if we look at the history little bit closer. When Nurhachi formed the eight banner system, there were many han who were living along side with manchurians got also organized into the eight banners. After the conquering of Fu Shun(抚顺），after the conquering of ShenYang(沈阳）,there were more han both from local population and surrendered Ming troopers ,absorbed into eight banners. By 1642 when the eight banner army entered Guan(关），the ethnic han soldiers,Wwu San Gui(吴三贵）‘s army was not counted, were about 40% in the manchurian army and they out numbered any other ethnic like the monguls and manchurians in the manchurian army. By ther time manchurian army stepped outside YangZhou, there were many more ex Ming han generals and soldiers in machurian marmy. So the Yang Zhong Ten days was also largely responsible by han solders.
Regardless, I don’t see any point to see all these historic events with ethnic eyes.It dose not serve any purpose.
to single out the mongols and manchurian is not fair and is not true.
However I do agree with you about the Confucius teaching and the returning of Confucianism back to our society.
But again, in the 2000 years of Confucianism before 1912, the Confucianism did not stop “people being treated like dirt” while most of the rulers were educated by Confucianism. they failed to follow it because of the political systems.
So that’s other things the others on this blog have been talking about: the rule of law, the free media, chinese way of democracy, the economy etc alongside with our ancient Confucianism and other peace loving religions to built a better china.
BMY says
@Buxi,
Thanks for the link and the info of those TV programs. You seem have multi brains and 96 hours a day. very admirable
I am ignorant of these progress. I hardly checked any political or culture stuff before this year after I left China as a engineer to work to feed the family.(you are much more than a engineer)
I am thinking of getting a satellite dish now.
always appreciate your kind knowledge sharing .
FOARP says
@LACJ – That is true inside the check points, not so true outside of them.
Buxi says
@FOARP,
I don’t know when you were last in Shenzhen, but the distinction between 关内 and 关外 is really no longer present. The checkpoints are usually not manned any more, as of probably 2006 or so. And crime throughout Shenzhen isn’t much of an issue.
@LACJ,
I think it’s fair to be suspect about allegations involving gangs. In some cases, I would bet there are no gangs involved at all.
However, in many cases, gangs are absolutely a factor. You can’t think of these gangs as highly organized criminal organizations; these aren’t like the triads of Hong Kong TV, or the Sicilian mafia. These are more or less street gangs; young, unemployed drug addicts/dealers who make their living pushing people around. And while a few might have something of a working relationship with the cops in *some cases*, in general, there is a lot of mutual hatred and confrontation.
The local police might look the other way for a few hundred RMB when you run prostitution out of your store, but they’ll still arrest you and send you to prison for getting in fights.
So, absolutely, when they see a chance to beat up on the police and think its unlikely they’ll face much punishment for it… in other words, how mobs always form… they’ll be on the front lines.
Buxi says
@BMY,
I think I’m lucky being in a part of the world where there are so many Chinese. There are many areas in the SF Bay Area that’s either Little Taipei or Little Beijing… large collections of Chinese stores/restaurants. The modern version of Chinatown. You probably aren’t so lucky where you are.
I also give credit to two things for bringing China so much closer: 1) satellite TV, 2) Internet. If you don’t have satellite TV yet, get it, and your kids will thank you for it. 🙂
And for your kids, let me recommend a few popular DVD cartoon series, too:
– 蓝猫红兔七侠传, classic Wuxia, except with a blue cat and a red rabbit as the heroes. 🙂
– 马小跳.
FOARP says
@Buxi – The Meilin check point (the one nearest Longhua) was always manned whilst I was there, and they were still occasionallychecking IDs when I left last September, the guards were always there on the road into Shenzhen (usually doing nothing though), I just (almost) never saw them on the road out. The distinction between places inside the checkpoints and places outside the checkpoints definitely existed as of September last year – not least in the minds of my fellow co-workers. I doubt very much that the kind of murder/riot that happened in Longhua would happen in Luohu, at least not without the police actually doing something about it.
ali baba says
春秋网http://bbs.cqzg.cn
春秋中文社区» 历史回声 » 大话明清 » [原创] 满清断绝华夏和西方的文化交流是中国在近代全面落后的根本原因
The severing of the cultural exchange between Chong Hua and the western world,is the fundamantal reasons of the backward of CHINA in modren times.
阿眉立卡静
满清入关以后，满清皇帝虽然礼遇传教士，鼓励对西欧输出儒学，但是却禁止本国人民了解西方文明。
After Manchu stepped onto the southern part of the Great Wall,even though the Manchurian Emperor treated the western missionary with respect,encouraged the export of Confucius Teaching into western Europe,but in turn prohibited her own civilians to understand western culture.
这不仅仅是因为满清皇帝意识到了西方文明对自己皇权的威胁，更重要的是满清的皇权因为有旗人军事和官僚集团支撑，能够通过无限扩大到民间的文字狱，将社会舆论的引导权从文人手中夺到自己的手里，由此皇权就有能力阻止中国向西方学习和平等地交流，使华夏文明只输出不输入。
Manchu Emperors realized that western culture is a threat towards it’s own imperial authority,but most importantly,the Manchulian imperial authority had the protection and support from Manchulian millitary and bureaucrat,so that the Emperors were able to impose “word prison” into every corner of the society,resulting in the inability of the society’s intellectuals to form or conduct public opinions,that means only the emperors can “create” public opinions,thus the imperial authority was able to stop CHINA ‘s learning from the WEST,and exchange with the west on even ground,the end result being Chong Hua culture could only export but not import.
西方文明本来是和华夏文明互补和平等的，西方文明需要华夏文明的平等和仁爱来反抗他们的等级压迫；华夏文明需要西方文明的公民意识和宗教来对反抗我们的王神和一的皇权。
Originally,western culture and Chong Hua culture were on even par and enriching each other.Equality,humanity and charity,all these qualities from Chong Hua culture,were absorbed into the western culture to counteract their own class suppression;whereas westerner’s awareness of citizen’s obligations and its religion,were needed by Chong Hua culture to counteract our own God-King as one imperial authority.
西方文明通过和华夏文明交流实现了自己的现代化，可是华夏文明中的人文精神却被满清扼杀了，并且还全面阻止了华夏文明向西方学习。这使华夏文明丧失了通过与西方交流，实现自身升级现代化的机会，满清不仅导致了中国在近代的全面落后，而且还阻碍了西方文明和华夏文明的全面融合。
Through the exchange with Chong Hua culture,the western culture was finally modernised,but Manchu imperial authority,not satisfied with strangling our spirit of humanity,went on to impose a complete stop on the Chong Hua culture’s learning grom the west.The oppotunity to be upgraded and modernised,through the exchange with western culture,was lost.The Manchu Dynasty,not only was the cause of the full-scale backward of China in the modern time,also impede the full joinijg of western and Chong Hua culture.
BMY says
Buxi,
I’ll try to get the 蓝猫红兔七侠传, 马小跳 DVDs. I am sure kids would love them. Thanks
I only blame myself. I also live in a area highly populated by Chinese. The next suburb I go shopping every week is called Little HongKong. most are mainlanders .
BMY says
@alibaba,
I know Qing had 文字狱 and Ming was more tolerant to all different ideas.
“满清断绝华夏和西方的文化交流是中国在近代全面落后的根本原因” is popular among many people in the past 100 years. But I only partially agree this. the reasons are more complicated than just Manchu Dynasty
“Through the exchange with Chong Hua culture,the western culture was finally modernised” is the first time I heard the modernization in the west had so much to do with Chinese culture. I doubt it very much.
Anyway, Qing ended in 1912. I don’t see any point to constant paint”evil Qing/manchu” . It dose not serve anything but ethnic hatred. It would not achieve the Mengzism you are advocating .
I would suggest you have a look at Balkan where people can not forget the bloody battles happened few hundreds of years ago and what happened not long ago?
ali baba says
春秋网http://bbs.cqzg.cn
春秋中文社区» 历史回声 » 大话明清 » [原创] 满清断绝华夏和西方的文化交流是中国在近代全面落后的根本原因
下面我们就来说说满清的无限扩大到民间的文字狱的效果。
由于文字狱扩大到了民间文人，使民间独立修史成为不可能，这就使满清皇帝能够将社会舆论权夺到自己手中，满清皇帝们便可以放心大胆地胡编乱造了。之所以满清皇帝可以搞长达150年的扩大到民间的文字狱，是因为他们有绝对依附于他的旗人军事和官僚集团。
The end results of the unlimited expansion of “word prison”into the the civilian society by the Manchu.
Because “word prison”was expanded into the civilian intellectuals,the society’s indepandent recording of history has become impossible,thus the Manchu Emperors were able to control the public voice,and boldly said and wrote whatever they like.Why was Manchu emperors were able to make this “word prison”to last 150 years(Manchu Dynasty lasted 300 plus years),the reason being they had the complete support of the Manchu military and the bloc of Manchu bureaucrate .
普通汉族王朝的皇帝的统治需要依靠官员，而汉族王朝的官员的来源是什么呢？就是来自于民间的文人。所以汉族王朝的皇帝一方面依靠自己的“天子”身份（神权背景）压制文人，但另一方面却不得不依靠这些文人。所以，明朝的文字狱只搞了30年就不敢干了，而且还不敢杀民间的文人。明朝皇帝如果真的杀光了有社会责任感的文人，谁来帮他管理国家呢？
The ruling of emperors of Han ethnic required bureaucrate,which in turn came from the society’s intellectuals.The fact that the emperors of Han ethnic were “son of heaven”,and this God-given-authority was used to suppress and control the intellectuals,on the other hand,the emperors depanded on these intellectuals.That was why,the Ming dynasty’s “word prison” only lasted for 30 years, not only Ming dynasty dared not continue the “word prison”,they dared not murder the intellectuals.If all the intellectuals with a social responsive heart,were killed by the Ming emperors,who would to left to manage and run the country?
满清则不同，它所依靠的是旗人军事和官僚集团，不是来自于民间的文人官僚集团。旗人还掌握绝对的军事权力，一方面他手上有足够的暴力（旗人军事集团）可以搞无限扩大到民间的文字狱；另一方面他也不需要依靠汉族文人官僚集团治国（依靠旗人官僚集团），杀光了汉族有社会责任感的文人也不会动摇他们的统治，反而使他们的统治更巩固。这样，他就可以对全社会的知识分子大开杀戒了。
Manchu dynasty was different,it relyed on the Manchurian military and manchurian bureaucrate bloc.Manchurian commanded absolute military power,on one hand they were able to impose “word prison” onto the society,backed up by ample violence;on the other hand, bureaucrate of Han ethnic were not needed to manage the country,to kill off all the Han intellectuals with a social responsive heart,would not harm their ruling,on the contrary,would only strenghen their ruling.This way,they could kill off all the intellectuals of the society.
Ali baba reply to BMY:
Thanks for your post BMY,for a moment I was thinking there is no one left to care for our glorious ancient history.
But strangely enough,history sometimes tend to repeat itself. BMY,and all the readers who care to blog here,can you see the similarity between the Manchu “word prison” and the present day’s society of the People’s Republic Of China,is the present situation better,or worse?
Please give a fair judgment,from your heart.
BMY says
@Ali baba,
“for a moment I was thinking there is no one left to care for our glorious ancient history(culture).”
I think millions care. please don’t worry
Please forgive me my slownesses. Now I get you why you are constantly bring up Manchu dynasty .
I don’t see the “word prison” censors are working on this blog and you live in overseas. you can straight talk on the topic without getting into trouble. otherwise the slow people like me just misunderstand you .
Thanks for all your replies to me.
ali baba says
http://bbs.cqzg.cn/thread-331457-2-1.html
To BMY,the above web link is where my translation’s article come from.Please check it out if you care and love China.I think the bbs discussion is very profound.
Very happy to be able to learn Confucius-Meng Zi teaching with you.
Like to read more of your posts.
ali baba says
可是到了满清呢？满人们对主子们的依附和献媚，汉人当奴才而不得，更为严重的是整个社会以当奴才为荣（争相入旗），所有文人全都成了皇权暴力下的狗奴才。也就是汉文明中不向强权和暴力屈服的人文精神彻底没有了。保留的都是对“圣君”的歌颂、对暴力的恐惧、对自己同胞的冷漠，原有的汉族知识分子的“为天地立心，为生民立命，为往圣继绝学，为万世开太平”的社会责任感没有了，有的只是对统治者肉麻的吹捧。被保留和发展的这些不是人文精神而是裸猿的奴性！！！
In Manchu time,its people dependance and ass-kissing towards the rulers,Han all tried their best to become 奴才= minion ,much much more serious was the fact the whole society glorify the becoming of minion(all try to turn into banner people)all the intellectuals transformed themself into doggy minions, 奴才 ,dogs,animal.The spirit of civility of Han culture,the option of saying NO to violence and ruthless authority was extinguished completely.What remained was only the praise towards the “sacred emperor”,the fear of violence,the cold and indifference towards own race,”To establish heart of Sky and Earth,to look after the livelihood of common people,To continue the teaching of Confucius-Meng Zi,To bring about 10,000 generations of PEACE.”,this kind of ideals have all gone up in smoke,what was left was the shamless and disgusting ass-kissing towards the rulers.What was reserved and developed is not the spirit of civility,but the animalistic of Naked Apes minionism.
To BMY again;
Quote:I left China as a engineer to work to feed the family.Unquote.
As an intellectual yourself,do you think the present day intellectual of PRC is (1)the same
(2)better
(3)worse
when compared to the intellectual of Manchu dynasty?
BMY says
@Ali baba,
sorry , I am a engineer not majored in political science or history, only read some history books back to high school days more than 20 years ago. I need more reading and thinking before I am able to answer your question.
Thanks for the link. I hardly go to any mainland forums as too often there are many extremists on both sides full of abusing languages which is out of my taste.
Do you want to write a post of “为天地立心，为生民立命，为往圣继绝学，为万世开太平”的社会责任感 which inspired our ancestors for thousands of years. many would love to read.
There is a “Publish” button on the top of the page if you want to write a post which can expose to more audience rather than we two are chatting on this thread
ali baba says
To BMY,thanks for your reply,and advice.
I may publish the article that I am translating now when it is all finished.
To tell you the truth,I am not much good in writing my own stuff,so I think I may just stick to translating.During the 2 years or of net surfing of http://www.kdnet.com,www.tianya.cn,plus others,I have discovered many valuable posts on various topics.I would like to translate them all for non-chinese readers to read.
http://www.youku.com/playlist_show/id_782468.html
The above link is about a TV drama produced by CCTV few years back.It is called 走向共和, is the best TV drama I have ever watched.It tried to explain a lot of questions,such why Manchu dynasty collapsed,how Dr.Sun yet-sen started Republic of China.It received very high marks among oversea chineses.
BMY says
@Ali baba,
I think the translation of the good posts from those Chinese sites are one of the ways this blog works. You might have found many of the threads on this blog are just the translations done by Buxi and others. Then readers can debate.
I watched 走向共和 few years ago and it is among my most favorites
Looking forward to seeing your post once you finish your translation. .
Buxi says
@Ali baba,
I think I mentioned “March to the Republic” on one of the previous posts here. It is also one of my favorites. And as BMY says, what we try to do here is exactly what you say you want to do: translate quality articles from KDNet, Tianya, and beyond. So, your contribution is very appreciated.
As far as being a “minion” of the PRC… let me ask you a question. How did the Manchus get to the point where it could force its social and political structure on Han China? Why did it happen? You blame Han intellectuals for being little better than slaves under Manchu oppression… but have you thought about why the Manchu were able to invade and conquer China in the first place?
There is two different issues here. First, in a stable, secure China, we must have the wisdom to rule ourselves morally and openly. But second, to get to that point… you must have a stable, secure China!
I do not agree the priority for the PRC today should be focusing on Confucius morality and attacking the current political structure; that makes as much sense as Zheng Chenggong (鄭成功) focusing on “openness” while hiding on Taiwan. The PRC’s immediate priority is less glorious than what you describe, but just as important.