I came across an Op-Ed in the WSJ by Rebiya Kadeer regarding the recent violence in XinJiang. I thought it would be interesting to post them here for our discussion. Ms. Kadeer is the president of the Uighur American Association and World Uighur Congress. Chinese authorities have accused Kadder of inflaming ethnic tensions in XinJiang and orchestrating the most recent riots.
When the Chinese government, with the comfort of hindsight, looks back on its handling of the unrest in Urumqi and East Turkestan this week, it will most likely tell the world with great satisfaction that it acted in the interests of maintaining stability. What officials in Beijing and Urumqi will most likely forget to tell the world is the reason why thousands of Uighurs risked everything to speak out against injustice, and the fact that hundreds of Uighurs are now dead for exercising their right to protest.
On Sunday, students organized a protest in the Döng Körük (Erdaoqiao) area of Urumqi. They wished to express discontent with the Chinese authorities’ inaction on the mob killing and beating of Uighurs at a toy factory in Shaoguan in China’s southern Guangdong province and to express sympathy with the families of those killed and injured. What started as a peaceful assembly of Uighurs turned violent as some elements of the crowd reacted to heavy-handed policing. I unequivocally condemn the use of violence by Uighurs during the demonstration as much as I do China’s use of excessive force against protestors.
While the incident in Shaoguan upset Uighurs, it was the Chinese government’s inaction over the racially motivated killings that compelled Uighurs to show their dissatisfaction on the streets of Urumqi. Wang Lequan, the Party Secretary of the “Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region” has blamed me for the unrest; however, years of Chinese repression of Uighurs topped by a confirmation that Chinese officials have no interest in observing the rule of law when Uighurs are concerned is the cause of the current Uighur discontent.
China’s heavy-handed reaction to Sunday’s protest will only reinforce these views. Uighur sources within East Turkestan say that 400 Uighurs in Urumqi have died as a result of police shootings and beatings. There is no accurate figure for the number of injured. A curfew has been imposed, telephone lines are down and the city remains tense. Uighurs have contacted me to report that the Chinese authorities are in the process of conducting a house-to-house search of Uighur homes and are arresting male Uighurs. They say that Uighurs are afraid to walk the streets in the capital of their homeland.
The unrest is spreading. The cities of Kashgar, Yarkand, Aksu, Khotan and Karamay may have also seen unrest, though it’s hard to tell, given China’s state-run propanganda. Kashgar has been the worst effected of these cities and unconfirmed reports state that over 100 Uighurs have been killed there. Troops have entered Kashgar, and sources in the city say that two Chinese soldiers have been posted to each Uighur house.
The nature of recent Uighur repression has taken on a racial tone. The Chinese government is well-known for encouraging a nationalistic streak among Han Chinese as it seeks to replace the bankrupt communist ideology it used to promote. This nationalism was clearly in evidence as the Han Chinese mob attacked Uighur workers in Shaoguan, and it seems that the Chinese government is now content to let some of its citizens carry out its repression of Uighurs on its behalf.
This encouragement of a reactionary nationalism among Han Chinese makes the path forward very difficult. The World Uighur Congress that I head, much like the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan movement, advocates for the peaceful establishment of self-determination with genuine respect for human rights and democracy. To achieve this objective, there needs to be a path for Han Chinese and Uighur to achieve a dialogue based on trust, mutual respect and equality. Under present Chinese government policies encouraging unchecked nationalism, this is not possible.
To rectify the deteriorating situation in East Turkestan, the Chinese government must first properly investigate the Shaoguan killings and bring those responsible for the killing of Uighurs to justice. An independent and open inquiry into the Urumqi unrest also needs to be conducted so that Han Chinese and Uighurs can understand the reasons for Sunday’s events and seek ways to establish the mutual understanding so conspicuously absent in the current climate.
The United States has a key role to play in this process. Given the Chinese government’s track record of egregious human-rights abuses against Uighurs, it seems unlikely Beijing will drop its rhetoric and invite Uighurs to discuss concerns. The U.S. has always spoken out on behalf of the oppressed; this is why they have been the leaders in presenting the Uighur case to the Chinese government. The U.S., at this critical juncture in the East Turkestan issue, must unequivocally show its concern by first condemning the violence in Urumqi, and second, by establishing a consulate in Urumqi to not only act as a beacon of freedom in an environment of fierce repression but also to monitor the daily human-rights abuses perpetrated against the Uighurs.
As I write this piece, reports are reaching our office in Washington that on Monday, 4,000 Han Chinese took to the streets in Urumqi seeking revenge by carrying out acts of violence against Uighurs. On Tuesday, more Han Chinese took to the streets. As the violence escalates, so does the pain I feel for the loss of all innocent lives. I fear the Chinese government will not experience this pain as it reports on its version of events in Urumqi, and it is this lack of self-examination that further divides Han Chinese and Uighurs.
miaka9383 says
1. U.S is not going to get involved, no matter what she is saying. (How many percent americans actually read the op-ed of WSJ?) I know this sounds crude but there are many other issues in U.S. that americans care more about then what’s going on in China.
2. Her facts are not correct. The official count is of people dead are around 150-ish and about 1000 injured. (per xinhua and other news outlets) And now many Ughers have been incarcerated whether or not they are guilty.
3. Despite the fact that she is wrong in her facts, it does sound like she is genuine. Whether or not she is, I can’t judge.
raventhorn4000 says
Kadeer is a mercenary and a politician.
She didn’t make it into the Chinese government for being “honest”. Appearing Genuine was probably her skill, considering that the Chinese Government trusted her for so many years.
Allen says
This is obviously meant to be a political piece. She is obviously a politican.
Instead of referring to XinJiang, Kadeer talks of East Turkistan. According to the Wikipedia – “East Turkistan, Uyghuristan, and Uyghurstan (Uyghur: Sherqiy Türkistan; Uyghuriye), refers to the eastern part of the greater Turkestan region of Central Asia, and is concurrent with the present-day Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China. More specifically, at times, the term East Turkestan only referred to Xinjiang area south of Tien Shan; north of Tien Shan was called Dzungaria (Zungaria). [2] The area is largely inhabited by the 8 million Uyghurs, 7 million Han Chinese, 1.5 million Kazakhs and 16 other ethnic groups with significant numbers.”
Kadeer goes about to accuse the Chinese gov’t of killing hundreds of Uighurs. She wrote, “hundreds of Uighurs are now dead for exercising their right to protest.” “Uighur sources within East Turkestan say that 400 Uighurs in Urumqi have died as a result of police shootings and beatings.” “The cities of Kashgar, Yarkand, Aksu, Khotan and Karamay may have also seen unrest, though it’s hard to tell, given China’s state-run propanganda. Kashgar has been the worst effected of these cities and unconfirmed reports state that over 100 Uighurs have been killed there.” None of these allegations jive with first hand reports from the ground.
One curious thing is that instead of discussing specifically the “injustices” that have sowed the seeds of current discontent in XinJiang with us, Kadeer blames Chinese nationalism for the recent violence. She wrote: “The Chinese government is well-known for encouraging a nationalistic streak among Han Chinese as it seeks to replace the bankrupt communist ideology it used to promote. This nationalism was clearly in evidence as the Han Chinese mob attacked Uighur workers in Shaoguan, and it seems that the Chinese government is now content to let some of its citizens carry out its repression of Uighurs on its behalf.”
Kadeer does make the reasonable demand that the events of Shaoguan be investigated thoroughly and openly. However she then reveals her real motive is to play geopolitics. “The United States has a key role to play in this process. Given the Chinese government’s track record of egregious human-rights abuses against Uighurs, it seems unlikely Beijing will drop its rhetoric and invite Uighurs to discuss concerns. The U.S. has always spoken out on behalf of the oppressed; this is why they have been the leaders in presenting the Uighur case to the Chinese government. The U.S., at this critical juncture in the East Turkestan issue, must unequivocally show its concern by first condemning the violence in Urumqi, and second, by establishing a consulate in Urumqi to not only act as a beacon of freedom in an environment of fierce repression but also to monitor the daily human-rights abuses perpetrated against the Uighurs.”
Can you imagine how Martin Luther King would have sounded if instead of saying “I have a dream…,” he said, “the Soviet Union has always spoken out on behalf of the oppressed…”?
One curious thing that is disturbingly lacking in Kadeer’s piece is any admission that the Chinese gov’t has tried to be even handed and to calm ethnic tension. In this this report from the Telegraph, it is reported:
Instead of calling for calm, Kadeer seems to want to incite more divisions. She calls for International interference instead of Chinese social solidarity. She continues to spew false facts and incessant attacks on the Chinese government, without showing any empathy to how tragic these events really were – where rumor mongering could have caused both incidents in Shaoguan and riots in Urumqi.
In the end, Kadeer may or may not be relevant to XinJiang. My take is that even if she were a hostile foreign influence, the more important thing for the people of Xinjiang is to work together to build a more stable society together. The goal is to create a stable enough a society where false rumor mongering and hostile external forces cannot so readily destabilize the society in the future.
But even with that said though, I don’t think we should completely ignore types like Kadeer. We know there are social discontent in China today – sometimes formed along ethnic lines, some times formed across class lines. If there are people who try to makes a career of inflaming those fault lines of a developing society for political gains, they are to me the lowest of low lifes and deserve to be condemned.
foobar says
Despite the fact that she is wrong in her facts, it does sound like she is genuine.
You know, turning 156 dead (mostly Hans) into 400 Uyghurs dead, that’s really just a minor technicality, probably an honest inadverdent mistake. And she sounds genuine.
I bet that you think you sound genuine too.
miaka9383 says
The thing is…she achieves nothing by writing to the op-ed wsj. I just logged on to the wsj website, her letter didn’t even make it to the front page. Or even on the main page of the opinions column. I am not upset that she wrote to the op-ed but I think her whole letter is just absolutely ridiculous, absurd, unintelligent….oh yeah useless to whatever the cause she is fighting for… She can exercise her right in writing this letter but no Americans care about her right now…
But I do agree on one of her points, Chinese Government needs to take responsibility in the poorly implemented policies towards minorities. By blasting messages that promote unity and peace does not do anyone any good. There needs to be a government official that stands up and say I want to organize a forum and invite community members of all different races and have a talk. Encourage more interracial marriages if they have to. Just encourage healthy interactions. They are all in the same boat. Trying to make a living. Frankly, Kadeer has little influence whatsoever…. CCP can blame her all they want, all they are going to do is alienate the people that they try to unite.
Honestly, they care more about Palin’s resignation and Governor Sanford’s affair in Argentina then what she has to say….
Zepplin says
Her view is rightly biased as a self proclaimed representative of the Uygurs. It is not the politicians’ job to be objective. I don’t really think it is a good idea for her to try latching on to the US. Look all the good that did the Dalai Lama. But I guess that boat’s already sailed.
Even more so than Dalai, she no longer has the ability to simultanesouly represent the Uygur and appear sensible to the Han majority. It is sad to say that she will have no role to play in any bridging of differences.
Failure in politics is not pretty. I guess she was dealt a bad hand and is still well off personally, more than I can say for many others.
raventhorn4000 says
Her writings are meant for her supporters, not for the world.
For her supporters, such claims would be repeated 1000’s of times, and will just become truth.
And the fact that they get printed, just validate their claims, as somehow being recognized by the world.
miaka9383 says
All this is a publicity stunt. She achieves nothing. If CCP continues to focus on her and their blame on her, they are going to make her a star.
I bet 1% of Americans know who she is. If CCP continue to insist that the blame is on her, 99% of liberal americans will believe her and know who she is.
For crying out loud, she is living in United States and Germany last time I checked, she has no credibility whatsoever. Her latching on U.S will not be successful period. She has no hope.
All I am going to say about this whole mess of situation is that CCP better get their act together or she is going to run away with this whole crazy charade and capitalize it for her own fame.
@Foobar
If you don’t have anything worth to contribute, don’t say it at all. I said she sound genuine. I didn’t say she was.
huaren says
In general, I feel WSJ is one of the more credible media in the U.S.. Allen – let us know when an “pro-China” op-ed gets posted. But I am not holding my breath. Maybe you should write one and offer it to WSJ and see if it gets somewhere. 🙂
Just in case we get into a portracted debate about media bias at FM and we can use this particular data point.
Anyways, I’d be really pissed if the riot was coordinated by Kadeer.
Allen says
Good enough or not, here is some of the Chinese gov’ts evidence thus far that Kadeer is behind the riots:
raventhorn4000 says
She lives in Northern Virginia, outside of DC, a stone throw away from me.
That would explain all the body guards.
Steve says
If there’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s the non-apology apology. She condemns the violence, but then implies it was justified and not their fault. “Hundreds of Uyghurs dead for exercising their right to protest”? Last I looked it was mostly non-Uyghurs dead from exercising their right to walk the streets or work in their shops. Butchering people with knives is not “some elements of the crowd reacted to heavy-handed policing”. It’s called the cold blooded murder of innocents.
@ foobar #4: Picking one phrase from an obvious condemnation of Kadeer to launch an ad hominum attack is just flat out wrong. Miaka is obviously just as against her as you are. She was saying the lady comes off as a “genuine” slick politician. You have to take what she said in context.
@ miaka #8: “All this is a publicity stunt. She achieves nothing. If CCP continues to focus on her and their blame on her, they are going to make her a star.
I bet 1% of Americans know who she is. If CCP continue to insist that the blame is on her, 99% of liberal americans will believe her and know who she is.”
I completely agree. This woman was a big nothing until a few days ago. Now she’s a media star. The WSJ put her on here exactly because she is a media star and very relevant to the conversation right now. The Chinese government made her relevant. I think they made a mistake. I also agree with Miaka that the Obama administration is going to stay out of this. The Chinese need to work this out amongst themselves.
raventhorn4000 says
Kadeer was only a “model minority” because she kissed a lot of CCP official asses. A lot of the rich people from those days were later found guilty of corruption and tax evasion.
For example, that guy who marketed his own brand of seed snacks, and made a fortune in the early 1980’s.
raventhorn4000 says
Steve,
Kadeer is doing the same type of non-apology apology as DL’s people did after the Lhasa Riot.
The double speak is intended the different audiences. To the Western supporters, she included the “apology”, so that the HR groups can say, “well, she apologized”. To her Uighur supporters, they will only see the “She stood up for us” part.
It’s all rather obvious “nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more”.
Charles Liu says
Somebody needs to write an op-ed to WSJ to counter Kadeer’s lies. Right off the bat:
“Chinese authorities’ inaction on the mob killing and beating of Uighurs at a toy factory in Shaoguan in China’s southern Guangdong province”
Kadeer is obviousely not aware of these facts:
1) The former factory worker who started the false rape rumor online against the Uyghur workers was arrested on 6/28:
On [June] 28th, police found Mr. Zhu’s posting on “Citizen Voice”. Zhu posted on the website “Xuri Is Trash” article with false information, who was Xuri toy factory worker, but was not rehired after he resigned. Because of this, he posted the article out of contempt. Right now, Police has arrested Zhu according to law.
2) As of 7/1 Guangdong authroity already made announcement regarding the investigation progresss up to 6/30:
– The evening of 6/26, relevant departments and magistrates begain analyzing the case
– The criminal disorder case was officially introduced on 6/29, after preliminary investigation
3) 13 of the 15 people involved in the Guangdong brawl were arrested before 7/5:
As of 7/5, 13 group brawl participants have been arrested by police, including 3 from Xinjiang, 10 from other areas
raventhorn4000 says
Charles,
I don’t think there is much point in trying to counter people like Kadeer.
Ordinary people won’t care much about the issue any how, and Kadeer’s supporters are as willfully ignorant as she is.
It’s enough that Chinese people already know about the raw hard facts.
Even ordinary Chinese people who are normally suspicious of government propaganda are crying for more “security”.
If “peaceful protests” can lead to this kind of massacre of innocent civilians, I think most Chinese people just got totally turned off by 2 bloodiest “peaceful protests” in recent years.
jc says
The best strategy to counter her is to let the fact out. CCP got it right this time to let the foreign press in. Most main stream media do get that Uighurs started it. Obviously you can’t shut her up, but you can make people laugh at her. There is no point of directly engaging her.
I wonder what impact this event would have for those Uighurs in Gitmo that U.S. is trying to settle with other countries.
raventhorn4000 says
Yes, just show the bodies.
Those Uighurs in Gitmo are already settled outside of US by small islands.
But it wouldn’t be very difficult to “negotiate” for extradition from those countries. US did rather a silly political move. US obviously didn’t want the Uighurs on US soil, (just in case), but they shipped them to countries that probably will cave to China’s “negotiations”.
Obviously, US just didn’t want the responsibility of turning the Uighurs directly to China.
kui says
Came across with this report about Chinese police from a western journalist.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterfoster/100002643/urumqi-criticism-and-credit-for-the-chinese-police/
zhihua says
@19
I guess it’s because they heard about the peaceful beheadings…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6677379.ece
jc says
@raventhorn4000#18:
“Those Uighurs in Gitmo are already settled outside of US by small islands.”
Thanks for the update. Obviously I have been missing my morning papers….
Shane9219 says
Rebiya Kadeer and those murderous Uigher exiles are in the same trap as Dalai Lama and his exile supporters last year: keep making up a bunch of rumors and accusation for themselves, believe in themselves and attempt a wholesale to the world.
This is a failed and useless strategy as time going on. The more these murderous Uigher exiles dig the deeper they are in
BTW: Rebiya Kadeer is asking for a visa to Turkey, and Turkey responded to her suggestion. It is likely that US government is now under pressure to send her to somewhere else.
This is one of the effect steps taken by China right now. Chinese vice foreign minister is in Washington DC in meetings with Ms. Clinton.
scl says
The WSJ article explains why the Chinese government had to block internet traffic in the first place: not so much to keep information from leaking out, but to prevent malignant rumors like this (400 Uighurs, not Uighur Chinese, were killed) from spreading in the rioting area – it is an excellent move by the Chinese government to prevent further bloodshed. The recklessness and irresponsibility demonstrated by the WSJ, which rushed such an opinion page with false, and potential fatal claims, to the public, at the crucial moment of the riot, remind us that there is no “free media” to speak of in an emergency situation like this.
Charles Liu says
China Daily picked up the Kadeer Alzerzeera fake photo story:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-07/09/content_8403394.htm
Will Western media give some balance to this fact, or join US government/NED’s partyline and coronate her as “human rights activist/Gandhi”?
raventhorn4000 says
2 “peaceful” riots later, we are definitely proving the pattern of Western Media bias.
It’s the same spiel all over again, from the “Exiles'” propaganda and rumors, to the justifications and the “psychoanalysis”, to the subtle exaggerations.
*
I personally would suggest that Chinese courts begin to prosecute foreign media journalists and editors for “defamation” against the nation and the people of China. Enough is enough. If they published this kind of crap about Americans in US, they would be sued. If they want to operate in China, they better do so under the same kind of liability.
French NGO’s have sued against Neo-Nazi’s for “denying Holocaust”, and sued Yahoo to force them to ban all anti-Sematic material.
Charles Liu says
huaren @ 9, “I’d be really pissed if the riot was coordinated by Kadeer”
After reading what Steve said in the other thread, I can change my opinion from “I’m not sure”, to “she didnt’ anticipate the outcome”.
Kadeer probably didn’t “mastermind” an attack, but she played a direct, and large role in inciting the violence. There is a huge difference between protesting for better treatment, than the “Hans ship us to be slaves”, “100 Uyghurs killed in Guangdong no one held responsible”, boarderline genocide accusation.
Her false accusation in inciting vilence is not free speech, but with the NED’s manufacturing domestic opinion there’s not much the Chinese government can do to affect the outcome here.
raventhorn4000 says
Charles,
Give her some credit. Of course she anticipated it. The very nature of this “peaceful demonstration” was modeled after what happened in Tibet. They all wanted to imitate Lhasa. That was the entire point. Rack up the destruction and get noticed.
raventhorn4000 says
Of course, if one believes Kadeer, she doesn’t speak or read Chinese or English, and she’s totally dependent upon her minions to translate everything for her in Washington DC.
So really, she’s just a mouthpiece for some liars in WUC.
asia821 says
1. WSJ is a Murdoch enterprise that is much despised in China and Asia. His marriage to a Chinese woman did little to further his invasion of the China/Asia media outlets. He has been all but shut out of China and is constantly harassed by the courts in Singapore.
2. Why would the U.S. harbour a “known terrorist” as Kadeer? If the Chinese sanctioned a “terrorist” the U.S. media would be up-in-arms. Further thought…if the Chinese had a source of the trouble outside of China it would focus the national attention to a single overseas element instead of internal focus. It’s the age-old bait and switch tactic.
Nimrod says
Rebiya Kadeer gave a talk once (invited by an Amnesty International chapter, as usual). I happened to be in the audience. I must say, she didn’t seem too bright… not very logical. Not even worth comparing to the Dalai Lama.
Allen says
I am going to set fireworks on a dry meadow next to a Children’s orphanage tomorrow. I know we’ve had dry weather recently and that the gov’t has specifically prohibited setting camp fires, much less setting off fireworks. But what do I care – I want attention. Besides, I think it would be fun.
….
The fireworks later caused a fire that rampaged through the orphanage, killing hundreds of innocent Children.
But hey – it’s the government’s fault. I just set fireworks. Those Children should not have lived in such close proximity to dangerous areas such as dry praries … The gov’t should have cleared out the prarie … or something… I didn’t kill no body…
Allen says
@Nimrod #30,
Now you mentioned it – maybe it’s worth promoting Kadeer after all. With Kadeer and the DL – maybe we can split the votes among China bashers.
jasonwan says
As the first comment said, she is genuine. Here is a fantastic video clip about her political views:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYgvQrflB2w
Roadblock says
If you understand Chinese, here is the video clip of Kadeer on her parole hearings. Obviously she’s a skilled liar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LroPMbmz7m4
And today she’s again caught lying to everyone with a straight face.
http://china.globaltimes.cn/top-photo/2009-07/444548.html
Shane9219 says
The only way out for Kadeer is to run to Turkey for hiding among her kins there. Certainly, Turks could also host her with a badge of Armenian honor.
Turkey commercial minister even jumps up calling a trade war with China. LoL.
Steve says
@ Allen #31: The orphanage has no money. The government has legal immunity. I’d sue the fireworks company. Did they put a warning on the box stating not to set them off in dry conditions next to orphanages? It’s obviously their fault. And now you have to go through all that pain and suffering (extra damages) because of what their negligence has caused. Poor Allen! You are a victim.
Shane9219 says
Allow me to post a piece of Chinese anti-propaganda
“Netizens condemn biased reporting on riots”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/09/content_11678783.htm
berlinf says
Both the Tibetan and Xinjiang separatists abroad seem to communicate in excellent English (as shown in this Op-Ed piece) and never claim the Queen is inflicting cultural extinction upon them.
When the minorities are encouraged to learn Chinese to lift themselves out of poverty, then all hell breaks loose.
berlinf says
@35
Turkey ironically does not even allow its Kurds to speak the Kurdish language, and is accused of all sorts of wrongdoings against the Kurdish people. The late British dramatist Harold Pinter once wrote Mountain Language to expose what Turkish government did towards the Kurds in terms of language.
Shane9219 says
@berlinf
Uighurs have a tremendous tendency to fantasize Ottoman Empire and new Muslin riches from Gulf region. Some of them even think of Han Chinese the same as Blacks internationally. The first is a 19th century worldview, and the later is of course a popular worldview of 70s’.
In recent years, many of them felt pretty bad about their inability to integrate into Chinese society after seeing and experiencing the rapid development of coastal regions. This probably created more inner struggle among educated Uighurs than those from rural area.
Han population, on the other hand, has been thinking too much about making international trades, growing domestic GDP, building flashy buildings and infrastructure, putting up good schools for students and making more money for themselves.
In summary, most of them think very little about the inner struggles and identity crisis among minorities. Such broad disconnect builds up frustration and conflicts as well. Chinese society is now on the receiving end of this social problem. It is like a pair of busy parent working hard on their business, spent lavishly for their kids on materials and education, but paid little attention to their inner growth as well as have little quality time. In the end, what they got is a bunch of ungrateful and rebellious kids.
This issue was not new, but not many Hans care about it and hopefully, more Hans can reach out to minorities like a caring partner of equal, instead of a bossy parent.
oiasunset says
Now the Dalai Lama looks more like a saint to me by the day. He’s a good man after all, despite being politically naive.
Say what you want. I like the man and I think the CCP should start a meaningful dialogue with him.
foobar says
#12 Steve,
Interesting you would read comment #1 as “an obvious condemnation of Kadeer “.
Now you might read her better than I can, which to me isn’t all that ‘obvious’, but here’s the context that might not have been obvious to you:
She points to Rebiya’s inaccuracy of “400 Uighers dead” by saying it’s actually “150ish dead and 1000 wounded”.
Is that how you see where Rebiya got it wrong? Person A stabbed person B five times, and I tell you “person A was stabbed 10 times”, are you gonna correct me by “Oh, the actual stabbings were 5”?
I’d also like to know how you take into (or as) context what followed
“And now many Ughers have been incarcerated whether or not they are guilty.”
And please, to “launch an ad hominum attack”? Really?
Shane9219 says
@oiasunset #41
That has been the true intention and much effort made by Chinese government. However, no progress could be made until 14th DL stops flaming separatist remarks and activities among his followers as well as international supporters.
Shane9219 says
Report from Chinese official — We have evidence of training at foreign countries by recent Xinjiang riot participants
外交部：已掌握7-5事件犯罪分子在境外受训的证据
http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/special/wulumuqisaoluan/zuixinbaodao/200907/0710_7229_1243203.shtml
raventhorn4000 says
Last count, Turkey banned all mentioning of “Armenian genocide” from their history books.
And several Turkish academics were imprisoned for talking about it.
Oh yeah, it’s also “sedition” in Turkey to criticize the military or the military draft, or evils or War in general.
1 famous Turkish poet was locked away for writing a satire mocking the general pointlessness of war. (I have read the poem, it had no offensive words or defamation or violence)
It seems to me that that “sedition” charge is far more oppressive than the Chinese “sedition” law.
oiasunset says
POST DELETED FOR OFFENSIVE CRUDE LANGUAGE
raventhorn4000 says
additionally,
moderate Kurdish politician Serafettin Elci was jailed for announcing in Parliament, “I am a Kurd and there are Kurds in Turkey.”
But expressions of Kurdish identity are still severely limited by laws that ban criticizing the military, “inciting hatred,” and spreading “separatist propaganda”—laws that can be used against people who write about Kurdish history, criticize Turkey’s human rights record,
or use the word “Kurdistan” in a poem.
*Imagine, locked away for calling yourself a Kurd in Turkey! Give clear meaning to the phrase “Turkish prison”, doesn’t it?!
And China actually recognizes Uighur as an ethnic group!
raventhorn4000 says
oiasunset,
DL’s people won’t let him return without China meeting their demands.
raventhorn4000 says
Incidentally, it was revealed recently that the US government Obama administration may have “persuaded” the island nation of Palau into taking 17 Gitmo Uighurs for a Aid (ahem Bribe) of $200 million.
Of course, it would not cost China nearly as much to “aid/bribe” Palau into extradicting them back to China.
raventhorn4000 says
Good video Roadblock,
She speaks Chinese on video! And she told American Press that she doesn’t speak Chinese or understand Chinese!
What a liar!!
JXie says
#44
Stop digging around and tell us what foreign countri(es).
miaka9383 says
You guys are amazing. As long as you guys and the Chinese Government and many other Chinese politic bloggers continue to blame this no name woman, she is going to become famous and a champion to her “cause”. Time should be better spent on examining the failures of the racial policies and fix it. Yes Ugher people’s pain is “magnified” by “foreign sources” but CCP is making this problem worse by “magnifying” the Han people’s problem. You guys are blaming everything and everyone else but the source of this problem which is tons of racial discontent. As the previous article points out Ugher people cannot survive away from the Han people and the Han people can survive just fine with out the Ughers. This give Han’s a feeling of superiority and that causes more discontent in Ughers who did get discriminated.
The Han factory workers took revenge because of the police’s inaction in prosecuting the bad Ughers who continuously sexual harass Han women. These people on both sides are too uncivilized to vent their anger at failed government policies so they vent at each other. This riot in Xingjiang was bound to happen one way or the other. It was a ticking time bomb because of the poor government enforcement of the law and its racial policies. So seriously guys, no matter what non chinese media reports, it has no effect whatsoever on the people of Xinjiang. It might make China look bad, but so what? Is losing face worse than self examining and fixing the policies that have gone wrong?
Let me reiterate myself… typical Americans don’t care about the people in Ugher right now. Do you know what the headlines are in NYT and Washington post today? AIG giving another round of bonuses, the G8 summit, the Carbon Tax. Stop thinking that China is center of everyone’s universe and everyone is out to get them. Kadeer is a no body and she achieves nothing. Her supporters are not going to get any bigger and as soon as you guys make her into a nobody, it is going to become smaller and smaller. All of these blame and talk about her, you are making her FAMOUS, that is exactly what she wants.
raventhorn4000 says
miaka,
Americans may not care what happens in Xinjiang or China, but some criminals see validation of what they do by media’s sympathetic portrayal of their “pain”.
Frankly, I would be contented if the Chinese press just call them “criminals” and be done with it. But apparently, Western Media is addicted to print stories of OJ Simpson and the latest killer celebrity.
Virtually every US states have passed laws to seize “celebrity story” profits of celebrity criminals, because they profit from victims’ pain.
Kadeer and the WUC are profiting from the misery of all people in Xinjiang, Han, Hui, Uighur, etc. And the Western Press are aiding and abetting them.
Frankly, your logic that some how the investigation and accusation of Kadeer for her criminal acts is making her into a celebrity, well, that’s just plainly ridiculous. If that’s true, all victims should not file criminal complaints and no government should ever prosecute killers, because “it might make them into celebrities”.
miaka9383 says
It is not front page news! Ergo it must not be that big of a news. Yes she is a criminal and million miles away from the incident. Frankly you guys are helping her cause and capitalize on this whole thing by just talking about it.
Focus on the root of the problem which is not her. She and all of the other criminals are just capitalizing on this and that is a side affect. Frankly, if no one pays any attention to her, she can’t capitalize on it. GD look at the root of the problem which is racial discontentment. You guys continues to amaze me by your logic of Chinese government can do no wrong. Their intentions of implementing policies might be good, but the implementation went wrong. So what to do in this case? Fix the problem the policies.
raventhorn4000 says
We are not the front page news either. Neither is Chinese news agency in US.
We get less coverage from Western Media than Kadeer does. Chinese news agency also get less coverage than Kadeer does.
How are we “helping her cause”? I think you exaggerate our influence.
“Frankly, if no one pays any attention to her, she can’t capitalize on it.”
Well, that’s a bit late, considering the Western Media swallowed her story. I wish “no one paid her attention”. China would have just chalked up as another criminal to extradict and that would be the end of it.
Of course the government bears responsibility for any criminals in society. Kadeer included. Now she’s in US, mocking justice. So we mock back, and mocking the idiotic media. Now let’s see what responsibility US has for harboring her.
There is no magic bullet for “racial discontentment”. Criticisms are just as naive and simplistic as the policies themselves.
Well, yeah, we want “racial harmony”. Easier said than done.
miaka9383 says
R4K
Frankly, by CCP focusing their attention on her, they are making her into somebody that freakin free tibet activist can turn into a hero. This is just not some petty crime.
She is a criminal like Charlse Manson (isn’t he famous?) Timothy McVey(can’t spell his name)
You are not mocking anymore you are accusing of everyone harboring her when she is a resident in U.S. So by your definition U.S is already harboring her. U.S government won’t care for her cause.
There is no magic bullet for racial discontentment. You are right. But there is something that Chinese government can do. Actually many things that the government can do to alleviate the situation. First fix the damned criminal laws. Two, start local discussions about their discontentment in a public forum. Regulated. There is so much work that needs to be done to fix this problem that there is no time to focus on this woman or the western media. Yeah they mock you.. so what? Actually, they didn’t even mock you. They just reported with bias which does no harm whatsoever except China’s reputation, which is already nothing.
Shane9219 says
@R47 #47
Ironically, Turkey PM and CM announced that they share the “common human right values” with Europeans 🙂
JXie says
The meme of Kadeer was a nobody and it was CCP that made her into the limelight really needs to stop. She is the president of WUC and arguably the de facto leader of the East Turkestan Movement. Just because she wasn’t known to you, doesn’t mean she was not important.
JXie says
Miaka,
With all the love in the world, please stop arguing with “you guys”. Pick a viewpoint, a post or a comment and debate with that…
admin says
@miaka9383
When the news of Urumqi riots was on the frontpage, so was Kadeer’s Op-Ed. The WSJ put them together.
raventhorn4000 says
miaka,
Tibetan activists and WUC will read Western Media or Chinese media even if she’s not on the front page. The fact that she got onto full coverage in some Western Media is a moral boost for her supporters. China had nothing to do with that. The Terrorists already glorified their own crimes. Same as Al-Qaeda rebroadcasting their “beheadings” to their minions.
US is harboring her, that is plain truth. US’s intent might have been innocent, but hey, so was China’s intent in policies.
*Chinese criminal law system is being fixed, so are many other Chinese laws.
2, I think their “public forum” on the web started some of the rumors, and I think they also resent more “regulations” of their “public forum” in any case.
3. they don’t mock me, they mock justice with their lies. It’s not ego, but hey, people have a right to dispute lies.
raventhorn4000 says
Shane,
“Ironically, Turkey PM and CM announced that they share the “common human right values” with Europeans”.
yeah, that’s a stretch.
Turkey is still waging war against the PKK, and racking up body counts on that “terrorist” group.
1 Turkish news commentator wisely acknowledged that Turkey is in no position to debate human rights with China. And Turkish PM has already refused to issue any diplomatic protest with China.
Turkey also counts on China’s support in voting against the establishment of a Kurdistan North of Iraq.
Turkey has enough ethnic problems of its own to worry about China’s.
Shane9219 says
@miaka9383 #52/#54
You are entitled to your opinion, but honestly, your views on Kadear and current riot in Xinjiang are still a bit politically naive, just because you read some political commentary from US.
Kadear is certainly not at the level of 14th DL. But being the top leader of Uighur world congress, do you think she would sit around and do nothing, while US politicians pay her all the expenses. Uighur separatist movement has for years consolidated around Uighur world congress, in a similar way as oversea Tibet cause around International Campaign For Free Tibet. Uighur separatist organizations have learned to legitimize themselves on the surface, while still struggle hard to gain hearts and minds of those inside China with political actions. Last year, there were several terrorist acts caused many death in China just before Olympics. After Lhasa riot, oversea Uighur just got popped up and wanted to launch a similar action and now they have gotten it.
Kadear and her organization also try to convert every Uighur coming out of China, and let them follow their separatist cause. With Uighur’s historical background and tendency, it is quite an easy thing to do.
On the other hand, did you ever live in a perfect society without any social issue, discontent and inequality, especially during a rapid transformation time? if you do, give me an example. US? Taiwan? Japan? European countries? South American countries? Any country on the moon 🙂
The question is whether these social issues are recognized timely and directed towards a positive direction, or they are being used for other political purposes.
miaka9383 says
@Admin
Not as of yesterday when Allen posted it. I looked on WSJ’s page to find it. And it took me about 10 min to find it. Which was not a headline.
@JXie
Just because ALL of the Chinese people know who Kadeer is, does this mean everyone in the world would know who Kadeer is? Now, she is all over the news. She is not worth the government’s time. Yes she is the leader of WUC, but compare to DL, no one championed her cause in the West. By R4K’s definition, U.S government is indirectly involved because she lives in the U.S, so this whole movement MUST be U.S related. Do you find that logic reasonable?
It makes me sad and upset when something bad happens in China, the Chinese government points the finger outside. I think first and foremost when a tragedy regarding race happens like this one, government should take responsibility. Whether it is to arrest people or arranging forums, whatever, just do something other than pointing fingers. All the government is doing right now is creating more and more hatred between these two races. They are alienating the Ughers. Just like Bush policies had almost every ignorant patriotic Americans alienate the Arabs.
wukong says
@raven
For all the talks of “human rights”, here’s today news out of Turkey:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/12040711.asp
Man sentenced to jail for carrying PKK coffin
[quote]
A man has been found guilty of espousing terrorist propaganda after carrying the coffin of a member of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, who was killed during a clash with security forces. A higher court has also requested the man be tried for committing a crime for the PKK.
…
Minors also tried
The children who throw stones at police or chant illegal slogans in favor of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, at street demonstrations, for instance, are tried for being members of a terrorist organization, according to the law.
[/quoite]
raventhorn4000 says
Miaka,
Maybe if China started to do “no fly list” for Uighurs, then China would comparable to Bush country.
China’s response so far has been only to investigate the riot, and to dispute Kadeer’s assertions. (And calling on Han Chinese to calm, and not seek revenge.)
If China is like Bush country, we would be talking the “With Us or Against Us” BS right now.
miaka9383 says
@Shane
You jumped to the conclusion that I read U.S commentaries.
I only searched U.S newspapers after I read Allen’s post about the WSJ.
It is a social issue and the Chinese government is helping out the WUC by making it into a political issue.
Also, where is the proof that U.S politicians pay her all her expenses? I haven’t seen one yet.
I think it is the Government’s responsibility to not make it into a political issue. It takes two to dance, so if Chinese government continue to examine the cause and fix it, and ignore her and the WUC sooner or later it will be a non issue. Of course you are right in saying that she is not going to sit down and do nothing, but if the government doesn’t respond and working on to create a stable environment for Ughers and Hans to co exist and make a living, inside of China sooner or later no Ughers in their right mind will support her. Yes and time and again you have told me to give Chinese government time, but seriously, they are running out of time. And they have no time to deal with that woman’s BS.
raventhorn4000 says
Wukong,
That’s a cool nickname. I wish I thought of it.
Yes, I was shocked to learn about Turkish “sedition laws” in law school. Liberal Constitutional Law professors use them as examples to warn about what Bush was doing with the Patriot Act, secret no warrant surveillance, etc.
I don’t want to pass judgment on Turkish laws. They have their own problems.
But let’s just say, Turkish “solutions” are not constitutional in China.
raventhorn4000 says
miaka,
http://www.uyghurcongress.org/En/pressrelease.asp?ItemID=1152260355
The World Uyghur Congress (WUC) expresses its sincere appreciation for the National Endowment for Democracy funding of its human rights works because such funding helps WUC to further promote human rights and democracy among the Uyghur people in the world.
“NED funding means a lot to us and the Uyghur people. I am more than grateful for their decision to fund what we do,” said Erkin Alptekin, WUC president.
The National Endowment for Democracy is a Washington-based private, non-profit organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world through nongovernmental efforts.
*NED is also a front company for CIA to funnel money to undisclosed activities, and NED is run by a board consisting almost all Ex-CIA people.
And a large chunk of NED’s funding comes from Congressional appropriation in discretionary spending. (meaning, non-itemized, unaccounted, no trace).
miaka9383 says
“The National Endowment for Democracy is a Washington-based private, non-profit organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world through nongovernmental efforts.
The Endowment is governed by an independent, non-partisan board of directors. With its annual congressional appropriation, it makes hundreds of grants each year to support prodemocracy groups in Africa, Asia, Central and Eastern Europe, Latin America, the Middle East, and the former Soviet Union. ”
BTW, since you are a lawyer you know this. Congress release funding but has no control over what the organization does. I would like to see a list of ex CIA people that runs this organization. There are rumours that NED is run by CIA but there are no concrete proofs. I actually have read every link that Shane and Charles provided in the forum that “proves” but it is all heresay and no concrete proof.
You are entitled to your opinion of NED and the CIA, but the proofs that were provided on this forum is not sufficient. I would like to see an independent investigative report from the Chinese government.
We can sit here and speculate all we want, but there is not a concrete evidence that shows this is the case now.
admin says
@miaka9383
The Op-Ed was published on Wed. You will not find yesterday’s headline in today’s paper. 🙂
Shane9219 says
@miaka9383
The true boss of NED are politicians like Nancy Pelosi and other political operators 🙂
miaka9383 says
@Admin
either way it was gone? Not a long standing headline???? ergo no news?
@all
Here is a blogger about my age and I respect her opinions on this matter very much. http://blog.udn.com/woaiyuefang/3120390
I agree with her. But there was another blogger posting an article from Singapore describing his experience in Xingjiang. http://blog.udn.com/woaiyuefang/3120390
Is Singaporean reporter lying? I don’t know you judge for yourselves…
miaka9383 says
@Shane
And the true boss of me is Jesus and Buddha all at the same time!
Shane9219 says
@miaka9383 #74
Good for you. You will be truly blessed if you can manage your own life without going through any trouble 🙂
miaka9383 says
@Shane
Oh you have NO idea how blessed I am!
Steve says
I’d like to add a few thoughts to the conversation.
Miaka, I mostly agree with the general consensus about the NED. I looked them up recently after a conversation with Charles and they are currently run by Dick Gephardt, the former senator. I’d say they are very politicized. They were created by Congress and most of their funding comes from Congress. If it were up to me, I’d stop their funding tomorrow.
Having said that, I agree with you that I have seen no link between them and the CIA. The CIA seems to be everyone’s whipping boy. How truly effective is the CIA? Well, I’d agree with this comment from an article in the Economist: “PERHAPS the CIA’s greatest propaganda victory has been convincing the rest of the world how effective it is. In his award-winning book “Legacy of Ashes”, Tim Weiner documents the agency’s seemingly unending string of failures abroad. Yet for those who want to ascribe sinister motives to America, the CIA has become a mysteriously effective doer of evil. Iranians have good reason to believe this myth, but the latest accusation against the agency, made by an Iranian diplomat, seems especially loopy. Here’s a tip for foreigners: If a story entails the CIA successfully carrying out a complicated covert mission in a particularly effective manner, it’s probably not true.”
I’ve noticed that when the Chinese government wants to demonized an organization, they personalize that organization because it is easier to have a person as a villain rather than a nondescript organization. So the Tibetan opposition is personified as the Dalai Lama and now the Uyghur opposition is personified as Kadeer. I think this technique is effective in uniting the Chinese people since it gives them a specific individual to focus on. But I also think this same technique helps the opposition unify around a specific leader. So it has pluses and minuses. I agree with miaka that by emphasizing Kadeer as the “villain”, her status on the world stage and in the minds of Uyghurs has been raised immensely. Now the Chinese have a single image to focus blame on, but the Uyghurs also have a single leader to rally around. How this plays out is anyone’s guess.
If someone wants to think Kadeer is evil incarnate and behind everything, that’s your opinion and please express it. But if someone wants to think that the riots were more homegrown and the violence created by the rioters themselves, that is also a perfectly valid opinion and no reason to denigrate one or the other. Up until now, I’ve read many accusations saying they have proof but haven’t actually seen any proof concerning the planning of murder and violence. Until that takes place, everything is opinion.
Shane9219 says
@Steve #77
CIA has been much discredited since 70s for its political involvement in regions like South America, Mid-East and Asia. That is why NED has become a favored shop for US politicians.
Shane9219 says
Also, even US politicans are not sure who actually run the country sometimes.
“Lawmaker says CIA director ended secret program”
“Has the CIA Been Lying Since 2001?”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,531460,00.html
Steve says
@ Shane: Yeah, I caught that same story yesterday where Panetta said the CIA had been lying for years. Hmm.. actually they started lying when the Bush administration took power and stopped lying when the Bush administration left office. Oh well, probably just coincidence. 😉
rolf says
AFP: China’s Xinjiang death toll rises to 184 July 11, 2009.
The death toll from violence in Urumqi, capital of China’s Xinjiang region has risen to 184, the official Xinhua news agency reported Saturday, quoting the regional government. “Among the dead, 137 were Han people, including 111 men and 26 women. Forty-six were Uighur people, including 45 men and one woman. A man of Hui nationality also died”, the report said. China had earlier given a toll of 156 dead and more than 1,000 injured when Muslim Uighurs rioted Sunday in the restive western region.
foobar says
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/74737935.html?dids=74737935:74737935&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT
Preparing the ground for last month’s triumph of overt action was a network of overt operatives who during the last 10 years have quietly been changing the rules of international politics. They have been doing in public what the CIA used to do in private – providing money and moral support for pro-democracy groups, training resistance fighters, working to subvert communist rule. And, in contrast to many of the CIA’s superannuated Cold Warriors, who tended to get tangled in their webs of secrecy, these overt operatives have been immensely successful.
“A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA”
–Allen Weinstein, first president of NED
Weichen says
@ Miaka:
I completely agree with you that in that China, instead of villifying Kadeer and thus pushing the west the sympathize with her, should instead concentrate on changing its policies regarding the Uighurs (I don’t know why you’re getting so many thumbs down).
BTW, NED (National Endowment for Democracy) is funded by the government, and is subject to congressional oversight – which is a prettier word for “government control” (Here’s the link http://www.ned.org/publications/04annual/auditors04.pdf)
rolf says
Human Rights: World Uyghur Congress supports the hunger strikes of Italian Radical MPs
July 09, 2009
“The World Uyghur Congress joins and supports the initiative promoted by a group of Italian Members of Parliament – all members of the Nonviolent Radical Party – who on Wednesday 8 July, started a hunger strike to call on the Italian Government and the Leaders at the G8, currently in Italy for the Summit of the most industrialised countries, to ask China to end the violence against the Uyghur people, and to collaborate with international humanitarian organizations in order to ascertain the situation in Eastern Turkestan.
The World Uyghur Congress participates in the nonviolent iniziative of the Italian MPs thanking those that launched it in a moment in which the brutal and violent repression carried by the Chinese authorities is running the risk of hurting in a tragic way the Uyghur population, guilty only of having asked the respect of their fundamental human rights.
http://www.uyghurcongress.org/En/home.asp
JXie says
Out of many ugly images, videos, and stories during the LA Riots that I remember, a story kind of stuck in my mind and gave me hope to the humanity.
It was Reginald Denny, a white truck driver who went to the wrong street at the wrong time. What stuck in my head was not the video footage in which he was beat senselessly by a few black youths, but rather how a black truck driver and 3 others who saw the beating on TV and went to his rescue, and saved his life.
Here is a similar story in Urumqi.
rolf says
Radio Free Asia
EXILED LEADER BLAMES CHINA
2009-07-09
[Original reporting by RFA’s Uyghur service. Uyghur service director: Dolkun Kamberi. Translated by Shohret Hoshur. Written for the Web in English by Joshua Lipes. Edited by Sarah Jackson-Han]
WASHINGTON —China’s government is stirring up ethnic tensions that have led to Chinese violence against the mostly Muslim Uyghur ethnic minority in the country’s northwest, according to Uyghur activist Rebiya Kadeer.
The leader of the Washington-based Uyghur American Association and Munich-based World Uyghur Congress said the people of China aren’t to blame for the recent wave of violence in Urumqi because they were being led astray by a “tyrannical” government.
“I blame the [Chinese] government as a source of cruelty,” Kadeer said in an interview.
Large numbers of majority Han Chinese are reported to have attacked Uyghurs with sticks, metal clubs, and machetes in the capital of China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, Urumqi.
“The tragic incident that took place yesterday in Urumqi is a brutal and inhumane [form of] violence which was committed by some Chinese people and instigated by the Chinese government,” she said.
Kadeer said the official media were stirring up anger in the Chinese community against Uyghurs by showing images only of Han Chinese injured in the July 5 riots that left at least 156 dead and more than 1,000 injured.
Those riots were touched off by a clash between Uyghur and Han Chinese factory workers in China’s southern province of Guangdong in late June. Uyghurs in Urumqi held what Kadeer called a “peaceful” demonstration in protest of Chinese authorities’ mishandling of that incident, leading to a standoff with armed police.
Some more at http://www.uyghuramerican.org//articles/3162/1/Exiled-Leader-Blames-China/index.html
Charles Liu says
Jxie @ 51, East Turkestan militants train in Afghanistan, then go back to Xinjiang. Here’s a CFR article last year:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9179/
JXie says
Miaka, #64
I hardly think this is a fair assessment. In retrospect, the government should have sent more paramilitary and anti-riot police personnel, but this happened in Urumqi where Uighurs likely was never a majority during any peace time blindsided even those who are very knowledgeable to the ethnic relationships in that area. Other than that, I challenge you to point at one single policy and one single action that could’ve made a difference, or will make a difference in the future.
This is much harder than you think. You make it sound like as if there was some magic formulas so long “the government” uses it, the problems would go away. Have you studied extensively on the LA Riots and the youth violence in South France? Why did it happen in 2 of the “freest” and most advanced countries? As much as this saddens you, I am afraid this is a part of the ugly human natures — given the right circumstances, we kill each other. I hope you realize there have been countless policy debates in China by including some who have lived through all the ups and downs at all sides.
As everybody else, I am eagerly awaiting the proofs that the riot has its connection back to WUC and some rioters are trained outside of China. Regardless what those are, what WUC does, is offering a possible option for some Uighurs to take a path that doesn’t end with “can we all just get along?”
JXie says
Charles #87
This is what I suspect but would like to hear it from the horse’s mouth. Enough with this 境外受训 bullxxxx. The only place at the west side that China can’t stop 境外受训 is the area controlled by Taliban. Why so timid with the 2nd highest military budget in the world?
Allen says
According to the link given in #87, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) is introduced as a militant Muslim separatist group in Xinjiang province in northwest China.
While the U.S. gov’t has listed the ETIM as a terrorist organization – there seems to be some “remorse” among Westerners that the U.S. may have been to quick to label ETIM as a terrorist organization in its zeal to seek cooperation from China regarding the U.S. war on terror.
My short question to the reader – assuming ETIM really is a militant Muslim separatist group that harms the core interest of the Chinese State – that it regularly launch attacks against government targets but only rarely (though definitely at times) against Civilian targets within China – should ETIM be labelled a “terrorist organization”?
Allen says
@JXie #88,
You wrote:
You are right. This is a difficult issue. But some times, at least from my vantage, certain things easily need to change fast. See, e.g., http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/07/no_uighurs_need_apply.php.
That link points to the picture (a “Help Wanted” sign outside the Postal Hotel (邮政宾馆) in Kashgar in China’s Xinjiang region a few days ago) below:
Shane9219 says
@Allen
I was about to post a link on this one from James Fallow’s blog. You are one step quicker 🙂
The problem with this picture is that it is a traditional Chinese restaurant. Muslins are forbidden to have anything to do with pork and seafood. Please tell me how it is possible for a Muslin Uighur to work in a Han restaurant?
I agree that private Han and Hui employers do not like to hire Uighur under many circumstance, but this picture on a restaurant hiring will actually insult Muslin Uighur.
Hui Chinese are Muslin too, if they don’t like hire Uighur, it says something
Allen says
For what it’s worth, a Japanese reporter in 2007 roamed around XinJiang and seemed to have found a group of Uighur who voiced some of their complaints.
Some of the images and voices have been edited out allegedly to protect the identity of the those complaining. The English subtitles however still showed the essence of their complaints.
miaka9383 says
@Shane
How about giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are so poor they are willing to do ANYTHING? Any job?
Even if it offends them?
Shane9219 says
@Allen
It is possible to shrink the pictures and video size ?
wukong says
@JXie #89
By Kadeer’s own admission, right before rioting she called her brother in Xinjiang to stay home because there might be violence on streets. Sorry I don’t have a habit of keeping articles I read so not link here, but it’s from WSJ or something.
Clearly she had prior knowledge of the impending rioting and violence, and she knew damn well government intelligence agency would be listening in when she calls home in China.
wukong says
Also I’d like to add without somebody planing or organizing, it’s impossible to have 1,000 people gather in one place at precisely same time.
Have you ever tried to organize a 10 people group outing? you’d know how hard it is for people to agree to a certain time and location, then actually show up on time.
wukong says
@Allen #93
Watched a couple of minutes of first video. If their biggest complains are high water bill and other higher charges for services, I am not going to watch other vids
Shane9219 says
@wukong
The link was on the other related thread. Under the court of law even in US, Kadear has incriminated herself with advanced knowledge of this organized riot and killing. She continued to say a phone call can not show she planned and organized this event. She is a top leader of UWC, why she need to tell people she was involved the details of organizing.
BTW: Turkey PM now publicly called this Xinjiang incident of a “genocide”, and asked “how come Chinese government did nothing but a bystander to allow this to happen”
Really a good question he asked !
The majority of killing happened about 2 hours after the initial protest. Kadear and UWC claimed violence was triggered by police’s confrontation with protesting crowd at the center of city. Actually, it is police’s job to do crowd management and confronting unregistered large scale protest like this one. How in the world is possible for these lunatic Uighur exiles to use that as a cause of wide-spread killings of innocent Han as well as Uigher bystanders, many of them at small back streets, woman and children, like the one mentioned by TimeOnline report, a family of 5 working at their convenient store.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6677379.ece
Turkey PM’s question and the statement from Kadear and UWC are going against each other like a train rack.
Allen says
@wukong #98,
Here is a video on religious restrictions.
Shane9219 says
@miaka9383 #94
You must be kidding me. I had an experience in my childhood, seeing one of my classmates tricked a Hui kid into testing something containing pork during a lunch. This Hui’s elder brother came to school the next day and beat up my classmates so bad, but the school teachers could not do anything.
JXie says
@Allen, 91
First that was a challenge to Miaka to find a new policy, including thinking through all the ramifications (presumably including a lot of reading and researching) — not an implication of that nothing can be improved upon.
While the exclusivity of that restaurant seems to be too strict to the detriment of itself, what if you are a 31 year old Machu who is great in the kitchen, I would be really concerned if it’s an ad for a postal worker. Normally you don’t want a Muslim to work in a Han restaurant, or a Muslim wouldn’t want to do it either. But if you are an odd-ball Uigher who eats everything just like a Han, in today’s China you ought to approach the hiring manager to tell him/her that.
raventhorn4000 says
Allen,
“My short question to the reader – assuming ETIM really is a militant Muslim separatist group that harms the core interest of the Chinese State – that it regularly launch attacks against government targets but only rarely (though definitely at times) against Civilian targets within China – should ETIM be labelled a “terrorist organization”?”
You can probably guess my lawyerly answer on this question. YES, ETIM should be labelled a “terrorist organization”.
Many traditional terrorists organizations used to target only government targets. Even Al-Qaeda and Taliban were somewhat limited in their attacks against US military, such as the USS Cole, army barracks, etc.
But these organizations tend to have a habit of expanding their methods to “increase their notoriety”. Cells of terrorists try to outdo each other in damages. Civilian targets inevitably come into play, because of the every increasing radicalization.
ETIM tried to go after Chinese military, but they had also targeted Governmental buildings, and Uighur “collaborators”.
shane9219 says
@JXie
“odd-ball Uigher who eats everything just like a Han”
Go around Uighurs and dare yourself to ask such a question yourself !!
miaka9383 says
@JXie
If they tweak the AA laws and the criminal penal code to where everyone gets punished equally but also having an equal chance in gaining employment, it would definitely make a difference.
@Shane
You have to be kidding me! Have you ever been poor? or do not have any money at all in your life? When you are in that kind of situation, you will work. I truly wish it was as simple as “I am muslim, I won’t work in a Han restaurant”
shane9219 says
DELETED FOR AD HOMINUM ATTACK
raventhorn4000 says
miaka,
I honestly respect your opinion on this. Obviously, you withheld your personal judgment of the issue and tried to be open minded about it.
And I apologize if we sounded as if we were all ganging up on your views.
You are entitled to take an innocent view of NED’s activities. Most people would not be suspicious of a NGO.
Some of us have seen enough connections of NED’s money to various other organizations that have long history of conducting interventionist coups and sometimes terrorist activities in Latin America, Eastern Europe, and of course, China.
NED come into the focus for many of us, because we have seen its consistent funding for such activities, and little else in beneficial effects. If NED actually fed 1 starving African child, I might have some reason to assign it some benign purpose.
It’s not paranoia nor conspiracy theory, but simple observation of cause and effect. NED money has a long slimy trail behind it in history.
You can choose to believe otherwise. And I honestly hope that you are right about NED. Otherwise, one day, US may have a lot to answer for NED’s activities.
raventhorn4000 says
miaka,
“If they tweak the AA laws and the criminal penal code to where everyone gets punished equally but also having an equal chance in gaining employment, it would definitely make a difference.”
That’s the 6 billion dollar problem that US is still having lawsuits over.
Does the Patriot Act unfairly target Muslims?
Do the AA laws in US unfairly prejudice against Whites?
Are the criminal law in US unfairly imprisoning minorities (who are disproportional in US prison population)?
China’s prison population is actually very low, 0.115% of population. US has over 0.75% of population in prison, and over 25% of all the world’s prison population. Chinese penal system has substantially less prison time, but with the negative side of Capital punishment for all serious violent offenses.
I don’t know if minority representation in Chinese prison is actually disproportional as US’s.
But I think your suggestions are valid that all laws should be applied equally, and China should continual its legal reforms to ensure an ever more equal system.
raventhorn4000 says
Regarding the restaurant advertising, I agree with Miaka that it is “racial discriminatory speech”, and should be banned.
Regardless of the practicality of a Muslim working in a Han Chinese restaurant, Any type of speech that mocks or denigrates or puts “mark of inferiority” on any race or ethnicity should be considered facially racists and banned. (in the language of US laws.)
The point is, if the valid concern is that the restaurant needs people who will handle pork, then simply advertise that “MUST be able to handle pork”, without any mention of race or ethnicity.
This advertisement clearly puts a “mark of inferiority” on some ethnicities as “unqualified” on its face.
Chinese laws actually do outlaw such advertising, and should be enforced strictly to ban them.
In my personal opinion, such speech are nearly as bad as starting rumors about some ethnic groups.
Should not be allowed, Zero tolerance.
Hemulen says
@Allen #91, 93
Thanks for sharing this with us. The sign at the restaurant speaks volumes about what is going on and I completely agree with you that things need to change fast.
@Shane9219
Not all Uighurs are Muslim and it should be up to the applicant if he or she wants to do the job.
@wukong
The clips talks about more than just water bills. Among other things, they talk about compulsory labor (the so-called 劳动转移 system), in which Uighur farmers are forced to work at state farms. This is a problem I don’t think ordinary Chinese farmers are facing.
Charles Liu says
Allan @ 100, I searched on Baidu, and I honestly can’t find any evidence on whether fasting is limited by law. I did find this law – work unt with 10 or more muslin worker, kitchen must have separate equipment to prepare food in accordance to Islam. If no arrangement is made (facility, lunch at home), stipend must be provided so appropriate lunch can be purchased:
http://www.zjsmzw.gov.cn/lawdetail.jsp?ID=1033
The only thing I can think with on religious fasting is Chinese law, child protection seems to trump religious indoctrination. It’s possible some kid complained about being hungry at School, and school reacted.
Hemulen says
@Allen, #100
Thanks for the video.
@Charles Liu
I found these regulations from 喀什师范学院 by googling “学生 齋月 新疆”. The regulations have been taken down, but I found a cached version, which I have posted below (orginal website: http://www.kstc.edu.cn/xsc/zywj/21.htm)
各单位、各部门：
今年9月13日—10月12日是信仰伊斯兰的穆斯林群众传统的斋月。为了做好斋月期间安全稳定工作，经院党委研究决定，现就有关工作安排如下：
一、各教学单位要认真组织师生学习《喀什师范学院关于教职工参加宗教活动的处理规定》和《关于学生参加宗教活动的处理规定》，积极开展马克思主义“五观”教育和“无神论”教育，深入开展揭批“伊斯兰解放党”反动本质宣传教育活动，使广大师生员工坚持正确的政治方向，旗帜鲜明，立场坚定地反对民族分裂主义和非法宗教活动，抵御宗教渗透，维护社会和校园稳定。各教学单位要把以上教育活动落实于斋月开始前并贯穿于整个斋月。
二、宣传教育活动要充分发挥党组织的核心和战斗堡垒作用，发挥共产党员的先锋模范作用，以及团组织的助手作用，各教学单位要召集学生党支部会议，各系领导、教师党员要参加学生支部会议，向学生党员讲解大学生和党员不该信仰宗教及不能信仰宗教的道理，深刻揭批“伊斯兰解放党”反动本质，要求每个党员带头抵御各种宗教意识和活动，带头做好各项工作，同时，各单位还要层层召开班、团干部，入党积极分子、团支部会议、层层动员，层层教育，明确要求学生不准从事任何宗教活动，务求工作做实做细。
三、宣传部、学工部、团委、工会要积极组织、开展各类校园文化活动，校园文化活动要在多样性上下功夫。要以群众活动为载体，通过形式多样的校园文化丰富师生员工的精神生活和文化生活。
院领导将分别参加各类校园文化活动。
四、斋月前各单位要对我院学生校外住房情况进行自查，斋月期间每天都对学生住宿情况进行检查，并严格要求学生在校内住宿，对晚归、拒不回校者汇总后于次日10时（新疆时间）前报院学工部，学院将按照《喀什师范学院学生住宿晚归、夜不归宿管理及处理办法（试行）》予以处理。
五、为加强对学生的管理，斋月期间晚自习安排在晚上6：30—9：00（新疆时间）进行。自习时间要保证学生一个不少，每个辅导员、班主任都必须到学生所在班级指导、帮助学生学习。院、系及有关部门领导每晚抽查，检查表于次日10时（新疆时间）前报学工部。
六、斋月期间，院、系领导、辅导员、班主任的一日三餐，必须到学生食堂与学生一道进餐，关心学生生活，注意学生健康。
七、斋月期间，要强化三级值班制度和系领导、班主任进驻学生公寓制度。由系领导（或班主任）牵头，带领宿管科工作人员和楼委会人员在早上4：00左右（新疆时间）对有异常的学生宿舍进行检查，并及时报保卫处查询。
八、斋月期间，保卫处要加强校园周边和校大门的安全保卫工作，要加强校大门出入人员的管理，晚上6：00（新疆时间）关闭大门，禁止学生出校门。
九、斋月期间，学生一律在下午4：30—6：00（新疆时间）开晚饭。6：00开始，全校民汉食堂、营业性餐厅等一律关门停业，具体工作由后勤服务中心负责。
希望各单位、各部门要切实加强领导，党政一把手要高度重视斋月期间稳定工作的重要性，以高度的政治责任感安排落实以上工作，各级领导要坚守岗位，做好信息报送工作，凡因工作落实不到位，造成重大事故和发生影响学院稳定的人和事者，将依照院发《稳定工作责任制》追求其党纪政纪责任。
喀什师范学院
2007年9月6日
Allen says
@Charles Liu #111,
I don’t know whether fasting is outlawed. I am at a loss here … perhaps posters here with real knowledge of that area can enlighten us.
If I have to guess what happened – I’d have to say for now your explanation is as good as any. Even in the U.S., enforcements of laws can conflict with people’s deeply held values / religious beliefs.
Here is a story on controversy relating to parents forbidding their children to obtain medical treatment on religious / cultural grounds.
Here is a story on issues relating to child abuse that arise in (religiously sanctioned) polygamous families.
Of course, we also have ongoing cultural wars regarding whether gay people should be allowed to marry or to adopt children – whether the use of embryonic stem cells is unethnical – whether abortion is murder…
Regardless of what the law is in your area, we should all be able to see that what appear to be relatively enlightened laws can often also be viewed as trampling upon people’s “freedom of religion.”
Hemulen says
Here is a blog that has reposted some rather draconian regulations.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4cbdedd00100ai0e.html~type=v5_one&label=rela_prevarticle
Hemulen says
I just made a couple of Google searches on the phrase “只限汉族” and a disproportionate amount of the results come from Xinjiang.
Here is a sample job ad:
本公司找聘和田分公司电子产品类工作人员1名：条件：大专毕业，男性未婚青年，25岁以下有驾驶执照及良好开车技术经验，能吃苦耐劳，有敬业精神，懂电脑基本操作常识。只限汉族。待遇：提供食宿。工资：前3个月保底800元提成另计，三个月后：1200元提成另计。工作性质…
And if you are looking for an apartment in Urumqi, your ethnicity is very much a criteria:
本人在天山百货商场后天山路上有住房一套(邮政快递室旁),现有一单间出租,带简单家具,可淋浴,可做饭。居住环境较安静,干净!只限汉族朋友!看房时间晚上7点30以后看房!中介勿扰 !闲人勿扰!非诚勿扰!谢! 现随时入住
raventhorn4000 says
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/1136790.html
“…
Although she knew about the Urumqi protests before they began, Kadeer said she had no role in organizing them. She told McClatchy Newspapers that she had heard about the plans from her daughters in the U.S. who had seen announcements of demonstrations in Urumqi on popular Uighur Web sites.
Kadeer also asserts that the number of fatalities has been misconstrued by the Chinese government.
She told McClatchy Newspapers that she estimated there were about 400 deaths, compared with 156 reported by Chinese officials. “Usually in such tragic events, the government tries to downplay the numbers,” Kadeer said, citing information from sources in China.”
On 1 hand, she claims she knew nothing about the protest until her daughter told her 2nd hand.
On the other hand, she claims she knows better about the the death numbers than the Chinese government.
Either she knew more than she claims, or she’s making up stuff as she goes along. (though I wouldn’t be surprised that she’s just scamming US for the NED money.)
*But in the interest of Wiki standard of proof, she better quote which website talked about the protest that her daughter learn from.
Otherwise, she’s admitting her own culpability and fore knowledge, with a vague explanation of the “1 armed man”.
Hemulen says
@raventhorn
…and you’re a lawyer? This is not even circumstantial evidence.
raventhorn4000 says
Hemulen,
She’s admitting to fore knowledge. That’s admissible direct evidence.
Her explanation of the Mystery website where she got her information 2nd hand, that’s circumstantial and unverified.
Nimrod says
Hemulen Says:
I just made a couple of Google searches on the phrase “只限汉族” and a disproportionate amount of the results come from Xinjiang.
Here is a sample job ad:
本公司找聘和田分公司电子产品类工作人员1名：条件：大专毕业，男性未婚青年，25岁以下有驾驶执照及良好开车技术经验，能吃苦耐劳，有敬业精神，懂电脑基本操作常识。只限汉族。待遇：提供食宿。工资：前3个月保底800元提成另计，三个月后：1200元提成另计。工作性质…
+++++
Admittedly, sensitivity to discrimination is a lot more lax in China than what people in the West may be used to. On the other hand, it may simply be that it is out in the open in China. There may be a few more complaints you may have in that ad, besides the ethnic restriction, such as the blatant age, sex, and marital status discrimination. Private sector discrimination in employment (rather than public sector discrimination or discrimination of using public spaces and facilities) certainly needs to be discouraged as much as possible, but the cases need to be reviewed more carefully and the decisions made be more nuanced. While I am disappointed by this ad, if you can read the tone of the Chinese, you can tell this is clearly not a Jim Crow situation.
By the way, there are some situations where blatant discrimination is accepted in hiring, for example, in movie casting:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=894981
raventhorn4000 says
In US, private discrimination is allowed in employment context. Government cannot compel non-discrimination on private entities and private businesses.
That said, several countries, like Singapore and China, clearly have laws that ban any speech that can lead to “racial and ethnic tensions”. Singapore for example, bans any speech that even slightly portray a religious group in the negative light.
Chinese laws is very general in this aspect, and only bans any speech that would “lead to social disorder”.
In my opinion, Chinese laws on this should be modified to more specifically ban any private speech that cast any ethnic group in a negative light, to be more similar to the Singaporean law.
JXie says
Hemulen, #115
I think you are really onto something. My immediate thought was, are these even legal or do they violate any regulations? But anyway, here is a thought, how about posting to CCTV’s 焦点访谈, which is a widely viewed “60 minutes” like TV program in China, and ask if they can make a program out of it. I can even imagine the title as “‘只限汉族’的背后”. I am sure folks here can pitch in for help, like for writing the note, starting with something like,
我是一位在中国工作的外国友人。。。
Nimrod says
raventhorn4000,
I believe employment discrimination is not allowed where federal and state regulations apply… perhaps there are some loopholes.
raventhorn4000 says
Only if the business is incorporated under state laws, and/or receives government funding in any small ways.
The rationale is that if the government “approved” or gave funding to these businesses, then they cannot discriminate.
But a mere business license or some other licenses are not considered governmental “approval”.
1 US case was between a White-only social club and an African American plaintiff. The African American plaintiff argued that the State had “sponsored” the social club by “approving” a liquor/alcohol license to the White-only social club, and therefore, the Club cannot discriminate against non-Whites in membership. The Plaintiff lost, the Supreme Court remarked that a mere liquor license approval is not so direct of a government sponsorship that would make the government responsible for the discriminatory policies of the social club.
And the Social Club’s right to private discrimination of its membership was therefore upheld as legal.
the main test is “Government direct involvement and control of the discriminatory policies of the private organization”.
*
Again, that’s the liberal view of freedom of individual conduct in US. And some have argued that such policies have only drove racism underground.
I personally think that China should adopt a more rigid doctrine of law on private discrimination. Private discriminations can be easily manipulated by foreign interests to sow discontent in China. Therefore, it is easily a “national security concern”.
Think Ming! says
@ Raventhorn 66,
You said: “Miaka, Maybe if China started to do “no fly list” for Uighurs, then China would comparable to Bush country.”
China prevents many Uighurs from getting passports (at least this is what numerous Uighurs have told me), which is much the same thing.
raventhorn4000 says
Think Ming,
Not quite the same thing. US no fly list applies even to domestic flights.
China’s denial of passport is clearly tailored to international concerns.
Shane9219 says
James Fallows had a follow-up piece on this blog, a sort of half correction and half explanation on this early intention.
http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/07/more_on_no_uighurs.php
I always respect Mr. Fallows’s journalistic work, though I hope he could do this piece better. At personal level, he is quite nice, quickly replied to me once I alert him the misuse of that photo.
I replied to him that I basically agree with him about the issue he raised on private employment, as I posted on this forum several times. The situation should be corrected. China still don’t have a large number of laws on private employment. As matter of the fact, Labor Contract Law was only enacted and implemented in recent years. Lot more should be followed regarding safety, work condition, and fairness. Fair housing is another. In GuangDong, a landlord may tell seekers that he prefer certain types of Hans (e.g. Sichuan and Hunan cooking use lots of spices that make people dare not to get close at cooking time, and landlords really hate it).
But it is simply absurd if anyone try to use this perceived discrimination as an excuse to slaughter innocent bystanders in execution style as a way to vent their anger.
Steve says
@ Shane: Thanks for that link to James Fallows’ followup. His viewpoint, at least to me, seems essentially the same as miaka’s.
I agree with both of your subsequent points. Private employment law can’t be expected to modernize overnight, yet the lack of certain safeguards has certainly led to some discrimination and animosity within the minority groups. I think Fallows’ point about there being many more minorities besides Uyghur was important to note.
And of course, your last point gets right to the heart of the matter. I don’t know how it could be phrased any better.
Allen says
@Shane9219 #126,
I agree with you about Fallow.
I heard him talk on an NPR show today. He was invited to talk about XinJiang. I was a little disappointed – not by anything he said, but by his lack of coherence – grappling for facts, speaking ambiguities, and generally not adding any insight besides what the reporters here already know.
Looking through his website, I can see even he often falls into ideological traps in many of his commentaries. But hey – you know – we are all human.
Wahaha says
Here is the story by NYT :
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/07/07/world/0707-CHINA_index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/asia/08china.html
Pay attention to the pictures .
Hemulen #112,
How did you have access to 喀什师范学院 website ? wasnt it blocked ?
or
You saved it last year ?
Steve says
@ Allen #128: Do you think it might be because he is no longer in China so he doesn’t have access to the old sources or have a good “feel” for what’s going on there? Is it really possible to know a country at such a great distance?
Zepplin says
Shannon regarding Fallows, and overall tone of comments:
I never liked Fallows opinions. He predicted the Japan century and after that went bust now he’s predicting the China century. Over generalization of cultural traits and obsession with topics like “why is CCP’s western PR so bad?” and “lack of creativity in Chinese schools” without going into any depth. I do appreciate his journalism though, just not his analysis.
But in his defense, he never said prejudice was an excuse for violent rioting. That wouldn’t be PC.
I am perplexed by all this need for condemnation in the comments. It reminds me of the US vetoing all those Palestinian UN measures by saying “the report isn’t balanced enough”. So what if Kadeer doesn’t apologize over Uygur violence? So what if most of the Western media seeks to, if not justify (PC), then give sympathetic causes for Uygur violence?
It comes down to the fact that Uygurs do have sympathetic causes to vent their discontent in violence. Instead all I see here are excuses on why this or that prejudice is not a big deal, why this was instigated abroad, why nothing justifies violence, why China is doing everything to restrain the Han.
Well, have you all convinced yourselves that China/Han is the real victim here?
Think Ming! says
@ Raventhorn 125
You said: “China’s denial of passport is clearly tailored to international concerns.”
And that makes it an acceptable limitation of freedom? What international concerns exactly? What are they scared these people will do if permitted to leave the country?
I admit I don’t know the details of what is at work here. I just know that numerous Uighurs have complained to me of having difficulty obtaining passports, and have ascribed this difficulty to their ethnicity/race/background. They could be mistaken, but this is how they have presented their situation, and presumably this is what they sincerely believe. I am talking here about apparently regular people (e.g. medical students, small-time businessmen, high-class hookers, and so on), not overt political dissidents.
I have also had Uighurs complain to me that it is very difficult to travel on the Haj, and they face a situation where they pay substantial bribes (20k RMB?) to agents and have no guarantee of being allocated a place. While this may not be 100% true it does not sound good.
Zepplin says
@ Miaka#8, Steve#11
I disagree. Blaming this incident on Kadeer is a great move, or rather, a no-brainer. Think about CCP’s end game. The objective is to have harmonious racial relations in Xinjiang. What is the best official reason for the incident for this to happen?
If the cause is indigenous, then many Han will feel that the Uygurs are violent by nature, since they started the violence according to the official line. If the cause is bad government policy, then the Uygurs would have confirmed their grievances. The ideal cause for the incident is outside influence. Then the official line of Han and Uygurs living in harmony is not contradicted by this incident.
Let’s look at some of the side effects. But all of these pale in comparison to the end game reason above.
First, by deflecting the situation, wouldn’t there be no impetus to resolve the ethnic conflict? The CCP doesn’t have to buy it’s own story. If internal findings confirm that indeed the policies were wrong (too soft or too hard), it will be easier to fix in both directions if Kadeer is to blame. If the policies were too soft, then now by grouping the indigenous discontent with a “US-backed” Kadeer, it gives CCP the excuse to initiate a harder crackdown to eliminate “foreign influence”. If the policies were too hard, then the CCP can blame this incident on Kadeer, while slowly giving the Uygurs better treatment and tell the Hans that we are not rewarding violence since it is Kadeer’s fault, not the domestic Uygurs.
Second, wouldn’t the US support Kadeer? I do not think so. Giving Kadeer prominence also puts her in a tough position. Since she is supposed to represent the Uygurs, it is impossible for her to be very “balanced”, especially compared with the mass media. The US readers will pick up on that and mis-equates Kadeer with pro-terrorism. I would wager that this would have made it even harder for Obama to relocate Uygurs in the US. Some “liberals” might give her the benefit of the doubt, but their political power is no where near strong enough to reverse US policy on this issue.
BMY says
I pretty much agree with Zepplin #133. To blame Kadeer is the best interest for the government and society. To say so could cool down many Hans who might seek for revenge to against general Uygur population. Obviously as many has point out , there are policies could be improved and refined but if we look around any government or political party it’s hardly find anyone publically admit any wrong policy no matter Clinton administration or Bush administration or Chinese government.
To blame the position is the political game every politician has to play, I can’t see exception any where.
I don’t feel Kadeer is that laughable. She and her followers have a goal and to blame Chinese government for anything wrong happening is to serve the goal. That’s not her interest to say so many Uyghur rioters were murderous. She was saying the party was the mother and she loved the motherland which was for her best interest when she was living in China. Now she is in exile and she is using the same technique for her same purpose . Even on the surface what she was saying and what she is saying are opposite but they serve the same goal.
Alessandro says
To all the guys discussing the “help wanted” advertisement only limited to Han people…But u think this happens only in China? It happens in Europe all the time as well, I’m from Italy and even if also here law prohibits such discriminatory practices (and maybe many people are smart enough not to state their “racism” clearly on the ” help wanted” or “for rental” announces), it’s full of people who won’t rent a house to or employ an extra-EU immigrant, or a gay couple or, sometime in the northern part of the country, even to some Italian who come from the south (which is usually regarded as poorer and less advanced)…There have been tv programs unmasking some of these people, but the practice, out of racism and ignorance, is quite common unfortunately.
I think that the “racism” of many people should not be taken for official policies of the State, and I think we all know how many laws are or are not enforced many times…And Italy is a small and ethnically much more omogeneous country compared to China (and even compared to Xinjiang)…
Hemulen says
Some of you guys are absolutely amazing. When you are confronted with evidence of Uighurs being blatantly discriminated against, you first express some shock and then you quickly fall into line using all kinds of arguments trivializing new evidence. This is not matter of state policy you say. You’ve got to be absolutely kidding me. The state clearly tolerates these practices. If you put up a sign saying “Free Ilham Tohti!” in any language in a store in Kashgar you go to jail. But if you put a sign “only Chinese” in an employment ad publicly, no sanctions.
And Alessandro, you say this happens Europe too. Sure, it does. But what is the difference? Well, you make a stink about it in media or you can go to the courts. But more importantly, Xinjiang is the autonomous region of the Uighurs. It is their own country, they are not immigrants. Uighurs and other minorities have as much reason to be outraged as Chinese in old Shanghai who saw that infamous “no Chinese” sign outside the Public Park of Shanghai.
Sorry, gents, I don’t know what more to say to you. I don’t think any evidence would convince you that there is something fundamentally wrong about the way the Uighurs are being treated.
@Wahaha
The regulations were cached, as were many of the job ads I put up. As a matter of fact, it is very hard to access Xinjiang websites theses days.
raventhorn4000 says
Think Ming,
“And that makes it an acceptable limitation of freedom? What international concerns exactly? What are they scared these people will do if permitted to leave the country?
I admit I don’t know the details of what is at work here. I just know that numerous Uighurs have complained to me of having difficulty obtaining passports, and have ascribed this difficulty to their ethnicity/race/background. They could be mistaken, but this is how they have presented their situation, and presumably this is what they sincerely believe. I am talking here about apparently regular people (e.g. medical students, small-time businessmen, high-class hookers, and so on), not overt political dissidents.
I have also had Uighurs complain to me that it is very difficult to travel on the Haj, and they face a situation where they pay substantial bribes (20k RMB?) to agents and have no guarantee of being allocated a place. While this may not be 100% true it does not sound good.”
*
It makes it a less constraining limitation than some Muslims would face in US. The international concerns are obviously, smuggling of contraband, coordination and planning of “sedition”, etc.
Understandably, the religious requirements of the Uighurs make them particularly more sensitive to the security procedures. They do travel to some of the most concentrated terrorist activities countries in the world!
It doesn’t sound good to their perspective, obviously. But it is not a blanket ban on travel as a “no-fly list”.
As for the bribe to the agents, and no guarantee, well that’s not much of a bribe is it? Bribery is certainly a big problem in many parts of China. So are unfair taxes, fees, official extortions, etc. Problems indeed, but not isolated to Uighurs.
Alessandro says
Ehm..Hemulen, for history’s sake, don’t state such false thing as “Xinjiang is their country”..IT IS NOT. First it is not a country but a region, second it has never been a country, third Han and Kazak and Hui and many other nationalities have been living there for centuries, and have all the right to be there, as much the Uigurs have…Don’t forget that Han dynasty settled the area in I century b.C. and that it has been in chinese hands or chinese influence area, on and off, since then..LONG BEFORE any of the actual Uigur came to live there.
Nowadays Uigurs are not the same Uigurs who were in the northern part of the region in VII-IX century A.D…those were ethnically mongols and buddhist, nowadays ones are turkic and muslims..The nowadays Uigur identity started from the 1930s, following the influence of Soviet socialist nationalistic movements. They just took up the name from the ancient Uigur (mongolic and buddhist) empire who ruled northern Xinjiang (by the way, it’s not me making this up, actually it’s professor Nicola di Cosmo of Princeton University opinion, one of the leading, if not THE leading expert, in the world about Central Asia History).
Secondly…if chinese law prohibits such discriminatory behaviours, u can go to the courtsin Xinjiang as well, if u have the means, or the culture to do it (economic and social situation in Xinjiang and Italy is pretty different..but u really think that it’d be that easy for many black, poor, exploited immigrants over here to go to the courts..are u joking or what??)
rolf says
raventhorn4000 Says: “Many traditional terrorists organizations used to target only government targets. Even Al-Qaeda and Taliban were somewhat limited in their attacks against US military, such as the USS Cole, army barracks, etc. But these organizations tend to have a habit of expanding their methods to “increase their notoriety”. Cells of terrorists try to outdo each other in damages. Civilian targets inevitably come into play, because of the every increasing radicalization. ETIM tried to go after Chinese military, but they had also targeted Governmental buildings, and Uighur “collaborators”.”
Charles Liu Says: Kadeer probably didn’t “mastermind” an attack, but she played a direct, and large role in inciting the violence. There is a huge difference between protesting for better treatment, than the “Hans ship us to be slaves”, “100 Uyghurs killed in Guangdong no one held responsible”, boarderline genocide accusation.
raventhorn4000 Says: Although she knew about the Urumqi protests before they began, Kadeer said she had no role in organizing them. She told McClatchy Newspapers that she had heard about the plans from her daughters in the U.S. who had seen announcements of demonstrations in Urumqi on popular Uighur Web sites.
Shane9219 Says: “The majority of killing happened about 2 hours after the initial protest.”
Can a riot be organized like this?
The CIA plan for China during the Olympic year was to focus on Tibet. Since this was not very successful they decided to try Xinjiang instead. (Next after Afghanistan? Or will that be Pakistan? Myanmar?)
CIA then train 50 young Uighur first in the West (camp Hale?), Pakistan or Afghanistan. Then send them back to Xinjiang to build networks, spread rumors and truths. To some extend this preparation work is coordinated with Kadeer and Uighur organizations.
The shock force is then waiting for an incident to happen (or even arrange one). Then they decide place and time for a demonstration, use SMS and internet to make it known – US-backed Kadeer is also there for some reason at 11 a.m. July 5 with her “something might happen” – then later “the demonstrators” in quite big numbers, run through the streets shouting and screaming …, fighting starts, and Han Chinese get killed …
Personally I think it can be done. (I have a feeling something similar happened in Yugoslavia before NATO started bombing).
This video from the start of the unrest in Urumqi is actually very shocking. Especially if the 50 in front are the ones trained by “a very powerful organization”.
Riots in Urumqi, July 5, 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-EVRZEUyCM&feature=player_embedded
BMY says
@hemulen,
I doubt many Chinese people know what is discrimination including the government.
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-12-03/231716777175.shtml
http://www.yjbys.com/Job-seeker/html/show1-323762.html
you can find more
We could argue the government discriminate elder people, married people and woman in their own country in terms of of job recruitment which I agree according to international standard . It need more education and regulation.
Shane9219 says
@ BMY and Zepplin
In order to understand the current situation of Uighurs within the framework of Chinese nation, you have to study history to understand where their collective psyche come from. I have to say that some of it is a bit dark (see my post #40 and repeated below). It is important for Uighurs Chinese, in particular, Uighur intellectuals to rethink their position and come to terms with history.
At the same time, Hans are doing a lot of soul searching too. I don’t think Chinese wanted to reject Uighurs as a population group at any time during the history. The mistrust runs deep because Chinese culture values solidarity during times of hardship and foreign invasion.
There are a large number of poor migrant farmers living and working around large cities like Urumqi. But when these migrant farmers are minorities, it surfaced as an issue of race or culture assimilation by Hans, especially when there are political forces of well-funded exiles in places like US.
Post #40
“Uighurs have a tremendous tendency to fantasize Ottoman Empire and new Muslin riches from Gulf region. Some of them even think of Han Chinese the same as Blacks internationally. The first is a 19th century worldview, and the later is of course a popular worldview of 70s’.
In recent years, many of them felt pretty bad about their inability to integrate into Chinese society after seeing and experiencing the rapid development of coastal regions. This probably created more inner struggle among educated Uighurs than those from rural area.”
Wahaha says
Some of you guys are absolutely amazing. When you are confronted with evidence of Uighurs being blatantly discriminated against,…
LOL,
One night, a program on PBS, a commentator asked a black activitist : there was a test and 40+ people participated in the test, 20 of them were black, all failed. It was obvious that she was blaming black people themselves for not studying hard enough, though she tried very hard to hide it by blaming the education system.
So if people pointed out the problems of people of different color, he must be racist, isnt he ? Well, how many complains did West have on Chinese ? I guess if a white passenger on subway steps away from two chinese who talk loudly, he must be a racist ?
For god sake, why dont you search some evidence how han chinese discriminate against other ethic minority ? for example, the korean minority ? if you are right, then tell us, what is so special about korean minority that han chinese feel OK to treat them equally ?
In New York, it is very common that boards of building reject Indian buyers, as the smell of their cooking is too strong (though the board often try very hard to search for other reasons.) the board worry about the values of building would drop if they let Indian in (actually this is true.) Are those board members racist ?
BTW, Tibetans couldnt find job in India, do you think it is India’s discrimination or it is problem of Tibetans’ themselves ?
Shane9219 says
For those people deny Kadear’s involvement, you have to research how Uighur World Congress evolved in recent years, even this is not a very well-known politician organization. It has consolidated various Uighur separatist factions. Many of these factions have demonstrated deadly violence.
Hemulen says
@Alessandro
I’m not saying that Xinjiang “belongs” to anyone, I’m just saying that it’s outrageous that an ethnic group that was the overwhelming majority in Xinjiang only fifty years ago now are openly discriminated against in their own region/country or whatever you may want to call it. People who have lived in Kashgar for generations are unable to obtain employment because they are Uighurs and the government tolerates it. If that is not a scandal, I don’t know what is.The comparison the Uighurs in Xinjiang to the situation of illegal immigrants in Italy is one of the most stupid comparisons I have ever come across, really. I am at a loss for words.
@BMY
Chinese, or more precisely Han Chinese, know discrimination when they face it themselves.
Shane9219 says
@Hemulen #144
One thing you and other westerners have to understand that Chinese culture is more tolerant, not that political sensitive like what people experienced in US. So it is totally a different mindset.
Shane9219 says
@Hemulen
On #136, you commented with a highlight
“But more importantly, Xinjiang is the autonomous region of the Uighurs. It is their own country, ”
Then on #144
“I’m not saying that Xinjiang “belongs” to anyone, ”
=======================
The concept of “me” region is so outdated now, even in countries like US.
Wahaha says
Also, the link you post was a regulation last year, right after a serier of attack in that area. We had similar regulation in China in 1989.
Let me make a prediction :
China will have a simillar regulation this year, let us see how CNN and NYT report.
When I looked the pictures by NYT, I feel disgusting. it seems that NYT tried to compare this riot to 6/4. What was that women standing in front of police doing ? look like she was told by NYT to do that, I guess.
Wahaha says
admin,
Where is my first post deleted ?
Alessandro says
“The comparison the Uighurs in Xinjiang to the situation of illegal immigrants in Italy is one of the most stupid comparisons I have ever come across, really. I am at a loss for words.”
Well, then u should try and think harder….:)…and maybe u should WAIT to know better how the situation in Italy, or in Europe at large, is or is not (or u usually are so easy and quick to pass judgment on places u don’t know?)
Anyway, that was only an example to point out that discrimination exists everywhere and usually u don’t have to connect it to precise governmental policies, but blame them on a number of factors…social, cultural and economical..which requires time to be changed…If u don’t take all of this into account, u’r just opening ur mouth and talking, with no real value. Also, sometimes discrimination is also due to some “cultural habit” of the discriminated that is perceived as “bad” by the discriminators.
Discriminations can also have many different faces..Don’t u think that “ershao yikuan” is also discrimination towards the majoritiy for example?
Don’t be so rigid and so quick in ur statements…reality usually is much more complex and much more multi-faceted.
As for “u not saying Xinjiang “belongs” to anyone”, here it’s me who am at a loss for words….maybe u should read better and carefully what u’ve written previously, which was a very very different statement. Happy to see, anyway, that some REAL history lessons helped u understand….
Shane9219 says
@Wahaha #147
Yeah. You got good reasons to feel disgusted about major media shops like NYT, Washington Post and WSJ. It once again showed they wanted to promote their ideology agenda, thinking themselves as a powerful “think tank” more than a public news outlet.
Uln says
Some reflections:
1- The international press was allowed now in Urumqi and not last year in Lhasa. Why? Is it because the Chinese governent has suddenly become more open and committed to freedom of speech? I don’t think so. It is because the government knew from the beginning that they had nothing to lose by opening the truth, because unlike last year’s tibet events, this time the government is not directly responsible.
2- @Hemulen – About the job advertisement – I agree this kind of discrimination should stop immediately and laws enforced. But I don’t think it is so much about real racism, and more about the complete lack of PC-kind self-restraint that most Chinese (han or other) exhibit. In any case, there are many ways for the Uygurs to speak up against this, but to slaughter 100+ innocents on the streets is the worst of possible ways. It is so bad that it completely discredits any related reivindication, and today the job ad looks like a negligible affair compared to the enormity of the crimes committed.
3- Kadeer is not worth the World’s attention. This woman is a politician, and all seems to indicate that she has lied consciously. Any comparison between her and the Dalai Lama is an insult to the Dalai Lama. Both have a political agenda, sure, but they are made of completely different stuff.
4- A big part of the Western press still stinks. I am in Europe now and just read the op-ed of a local paper where a not very smart journalist is clamouring against the crime of closing the mosques… for one day!! When are they going to get a clue? How about clamouring against the killings? About Turkey I won’t even comment: this country is a joke.
Shane9219 says
@Admin
My apology for my one liner #106, if it deleted out of the political correctness of US culture.
I was responding to an earlier question about “being poor, should do anything”
What I was saying is simple that Muslin faith has a very restrictive diet and daily ritual. In comparison, people from other backgrounds are more tolerant.
JXie says
Hemulen, would you mind others taking a run at it with what you found?
Alessandro, a few things about the history:
* First there are a lot of debates even among the academics, so nothing is really final here…
* It’s pretty much a consensus among the Chinese academics that the 6th to 9th century 回纥 (Hui He) were the progenitors of modern-day Uighurs, with other infusions along the way. Hui He at one point controlled the area north of Turfan to a part of today’s Russia. It was a combination of some proto-Mongol to proto-Turkic tribes. After it was defeated by some other proto-Turkic tribes, it moved further southwest. Historically it started as an ally of Tang and eventually became a suzerainty of Tang. But if you read some wikipedia entries now it was made as the overlord of Tang, with the famous “citation needed”.
* In Yuan, 回回 (Hui Hui) and 畏兀儿 (Wei Wu Er) were considered two different groups in the 色目 category. A school of thought (presumably di Cosmo belongs to) is that Hui Hui were Muslims, and Wei Wu Er were those who were not Muslim (likely Buddhists) and lived to the north of Tibet. Another school of thought is that Hui Hui and Wei Wu Er were more about where they came from, because Yuan also called Jews and Christians Hui Hui (with qualifications). If you believe the 2nd school of thought like I do, Uighur designated as a distinctive ethnic group really started by Mongols in Yuan, not indirectly by Stalin.
* This point is more about the history of Hui as an ethnic group. By some account, Mongols took some 100,000s mostly Arabic and Persian Muslims from the west and settled them to today’s China. Probably the vast majority of today’s Hui can trace their ancestries to them.
* This you probably will agree. In Qing Xinjiang was a province. Calling Xinjiang a Uighur Autonomous Region was plainly wrong. There were way too many Huis, Hans and Mongolians in North Xinjiang in 1955. Heck I highly doubt since Urumqi (Di Hua) became a city in the 19th century, it was ever populated with majority Uighurs at any point in time.
Alessandro says
@Jxie…
I know Xinjiang (and central Asia’s) history is very complex and full of “hand changes”, migrations, fusions and so on (and also that having something really “final” in historic debates is also a quite difficult task), but what I wrote (and I specified what my source was) is the opinion of probably the leading scholar on the history of that area of Asia even if, of course, nobody says it’s “god’s truth”, so maybe u should check with him, not with me:) I personally tend to be more in agreement with Di Cosmo’s view….
Anyway I was just and quickly anwering to the historically false statement of Hemulen
On your third point, u’re right, I completely agree with u….:)
Uln says
@Hemulen – “The comparison the Uighurs in Xinjiang to the situation of illegal immigrants in Italy is one of the most stupid comparisons I have ever come across, really. I am at a loss for words.”
I don’t think the comparison by Alessandro was bad. Coincidentially in conversation last night we were comparing the situation with the riots in Paris in 2005, mostly caused not by illegal immigrants, but by French nationals of African descent, who felt discriminated in their own country.
Those rioters had exactly the same right to protest as any other French citizen, or as the president Sarkozy himself, who is also son of immigrants. The point being here that today in a modern society the “land of your ancestors” does not give you any special right, and I don’t see why Uygurs should receive any different treatment for their crimes just because they are in “their country”.
One more remark: in those long riots in France, long and violent as they were, I don’t remember any hundreds of dead from either side. Something weird happened in Urumqi, isn’t it?
JXie says
For those who defend “只限汉族” — you are defending the indefensible. So what if some other countries in your interpretation are the same. The goal is making China better, not making it as crappy as some others.
Adijiang (阿迪江) was once a guard in the Chinese national basketball team. He became the assistant and head coach of men’s national basketball team. He is a Uighur, and speaks perfect Han Yu. His teenage daughter is a friend of China’s basketball stars such as Yao Ming, Yi Jianlian, etc — I think she has a blog somewhere. Do you really want the job posts explicitly rejecting the type of Adijiang and his daughter? There have been quite a while since the starting of 民考汉 and a lot of minorities from the west nowadays speak Han Yu quite well — if the job requires Han Yu proficiency then say so. Reject the candidates by their skills, if you need, but please not by who they are.
Shane9219 says
@JXie #156
You made an in-cohesive argument here. No one defended a practice when it involves a real situation of discrimination, considering various degree of tolerance among people and cultures.
You ignored a simple fact that every job has its inherent requirement. There are situations such as this one do have a genuine requirement on ethnic background or others on sex background.
You may also think about an hiring Ad for Jewish Abby (assume there is such thing). How are you going put it?
Raj says
I agree with Steve and miaka that it has been counter-productive to give profile to Kadeer. She had a fairly low international profile (compared to the Dalai Lama at least) before, so the best thing would have been to ignore her. Now she’s had significant air-time on the TV and the written media. Being condemned by the Chinese government is a great way to get noticed in the world.
Zepplin’s (133) is wrong that it’s a good tactic not just because of the above reason but also because the anti-foreigner tactic will just increase xenophobia in China, which was already somewhat significant in part due to the Tibet riots. That is not in the CCP’s best interests, unless it’s run by a bunch of nasty individuals who want hostility to outside countries and will try to use it to its benefit.
Plus blaming foreigners won’t necessarily stop Han resentment towards Uighurs. It may well increase it, because they’ll be seen as easily manipulated/led, stupid, disloyal, traitors, etc. By pretending they have nothing to complain about they’re also increasingly seen as soft, lazy people who probably need to be taught a lesson to realise how “privileged” they are.
Whereas if the CCP said that actually they did have legitimate grievances and they needed to be addressed, Han people would probably have more tolerance for Uighurs as a whole and stop thinking that they have it easy, maybe seeing things from the Uighur perspective.
Blaming foreigners is a short-term tactic for the CCP to get support, but in the long-term it will just cause far more problems.
Shane9219 says
@Raj #158
>> “Blaming foreigners is a short-term tactic …”
I heard too much about such habitual argument. Surely, China should not blame foreigners for 1840 Opium War and Japanese invasion and occupation during earlier 20th century. You may say, like quite a few I read, that it was Chinese made foreigners angry, or it was Chinese who could not defend themselves.
Habitual generalization like yours is a simple absurdity. One matter is one matter, another is another. You can NOT jump to a broad conclusion with your disconnected argument.
Look at facts and let facts tell the truth.
Shane9219 says
‘I asked them to find my husband, but no one dared to go outside’
Dong Yuanyuan was a happy newlywed until ethnic hatred spilled over into bloody street violence in China’s far west. She is recovering: her husband is still missing”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/11/urumqi-uighur-violence-victim-story
Allen says
@90,
Here is a revised question:
Assuming ETIM really is a militant Muslim separatist group that harms the core interest of the Chinese State – that it regularly launch attacks against government targets but never directly against Civilian targets per se within China – should foreign powers who have diplomatic relations work to promote the ETIM?
Charles Liu says
Shane @ 159, “Habitual generalization like yours is a simple absurdity”
You are absolutely right, poor Raj is simply looking for ways to justy/rationalize the violence.
All the evidence commenters have found in these few threads proved Kadeer/WUC called the 7/5 protest under false accusations against the Chinese government – mischaracterize incentivized minority works program as slavery, twist the Guangdong factory brawl into massacre of over 100 Uyghers.
These false accusation inflammed the crowd her organization gathered, is it any wonder they turned violent? Either way she is largely responsible for what happened to the illegal protest she organized, not the police who rightfully enforced law and order.
raventhorn4000 says
Allen,
“Assuming ETIM really is a militant Muslim separatist group that harms the core interest of the Chinese State – that it regularly launch attacks against government targets but never directly against Civilian targets per se within China – should foreign powers who have diplomatic relations work to promote the ETIM?”
*
Of course not, it would be state-sponsored terrorism.
Realistically, they wouldn’t sponsor ETIM openly, but they do funnel money to ETIM indirectly, and look the other way when money do go to ETIM.
Sooner or later, this is going to turn into a giant pissing contest.
Nimrod says
JXie wrote:
For those who defend “只限汉族” — you are defending the indefensible. So what if some other countries in your interpretation are the same. The goal is making China better, not making it as crappy as some others.
+++++
Since I made a comment on this earlier, I’ll say some more about this. Keep in my that none of what I say is contradictory to what you say. First, I’m not sure what the restaurant’s reasons were for that restriction. As I said, this and similar job ads in China seem very open about discriminatory restrictions. In this one, they also only want people aged 18-30. Maybe it’s just an image issue or something else, who knows. Nothing that a little sensitivity education can’t solve hopefully.
I’m not so worried about these cases — these are the “easy” ones. I’m more worried about the insidious and unstated discriminations. If somebody really wanted to discriminate, they would find a way to do it. If they don’t want Uighurs they can put up a set of innocuous restrictions that would exclude most Uighurs without ever mentioning “no Uighurs”. If people have closed doors in their hearts, no amount of law can solve that — in fact the laws would only make the problem more difficult to see and address.
Charles Liu says
Hemulen @ 112, 114, which part of the citations you referenced forbid fasting during Ramadan?
I think you misunderstood. This article give some clue on how China celeberates Ramadan, in accordance to their child safety law protecting children and pregnant women from forced fasting:
http://www.scnjw.gov.cn/shangwu/jxtf/msfq/2008080415530031.html
今年穆斯林的斋月根据中国伊协印制的三历表（公历、农历、伊历），定为公历11月6日（农历十月初二）入斋，12月6日（农历十一月初三）为开斋节。按伊斯兰教法规定，成年健康的穆斯林（除孕妇外），“见月儿封斋，见月儿开斋”。也就是说从这个月的新月出来到下月的新月出来的一个月时间里，穆斯林都要封斋，从黎明到日落
– Ramadam is celebreated in accordance to schedule stated by Chinese Islamic Association
– According to Sharia, healthy adults (except pregnant women) should fast from dawn to dusk
The above article also states, fasting period ends at 4pm, which makes the school rule that moved dinner up to 4pm, and study hall for muslin student to 6:30, after they’ve eaten – completely reasonable. For Western Hemisphere Mecca’s approximate near-eastern time zone issue does not exist.
Even outside of China, children, pregnant women, elderly or the ill, are not required to fast during Ramadan. If the Chinese government doesn’t educate their citizens on this, and scores of children sicken/die during Ramadan, it is going to be another field day for a lot of human rights people.
it’s just like those redneck Southern Baptist Convention people crying about not able to hold Sunday schools in China and touch Chinese children for Jesus (Chinese law forbid organized religious indoctrination of minors.) China doesn’t even outlaw Christian prostelization like Israel and Saudi Arabia; all they have to do is give Sunday school lessons for the parents to take home.
But instead we cry “religious oppression” and other human rights trigger phrases to denigrate China.
admin says
Wahaha#148
Shane9219#152
I did not delete any comments. Most likely one of the site moderators did. I usually don’t second guess them. However, if you think the deletion is unfair, send me an email and I will investigate.
@moderators
If you decide to delete, please just replace the original content of the offending post with the reason of deletion so the numbering of the comments will not change and readers know the criteria being applied.
rolf says
The Uighurs have a right to decide their fate
Wu’er Kaixi in The Age, July 10, 2009
[Wu’er Kaixi was a leader of the 1989 Tiananmen protests and is now living in exile in Taiwan]
The world is ignoring another example of Chinese oppression.
AS AN ethnic Uighur, I am horrified by the riots, deaths, injuries and arrests in Urumqi, the city my parents call home. I have lost contact with them, and rely on reports filtering out of Xinjiang. I have to accept the Chinese Government figures of 156 people dead, more than 1000 injured and more than 1400 arrests.
Of course I am sceptical about such figures. I was a student leader in the 1989 protests; I am still waiting for reliable government figures as to how many people died at the weekend. It makes me wonder why today — when so little has changed politically in my homeland and I, like many others, remain in exile — the numbers are so high and so exact.
The only conclusion I can come to is that the Government wants to send a brutal zero-tolerance message to the Uighur people of Xinjiang, to the greater Chinese population and to the outside world that Uighur dissent will be met with force. Beijing also no doubt expects that, when it releases statistics on the civilians it has shot in the streets, it will have the support of China’s predominantly Han population. The broad consensus is that the Han Chinese occupation of formerly Uighur and Tibetan territories has brought prosperity and liberty from feudal regimes to the subjects of “liberation”. In this sense, all opposition to Chinese cultural dominance and rule is viewed as a kind of betrayal.
The dominant Han culture of China is quick to react to any perceived attack on national pride, which is often conflated with ethnic notions of what it means to be “Chinese”. Despite this, average Chinese have a patronising attitude to the “minorities” to whom they bring enlightenment and prosperity.
There is very little sensitivity about minority ethnic groups who feel politically oppressed and squeezed out by the mounting numbers of Han “immigrants” who, in cities such as Urumqi and Lhasa, have come to outnumber indigenous populations.
I live in exile because I stood up for political reform in 1989. I regret I am not able to be with my parents in this difficult time. But I still believe democracy is an eventual means to gain freedom from political oppression. I also believe democracy should not serve the interests of nationalism. I do not argue that independence for Xinjiang or Tibet is the answer to our problems. But I do say ethnic self-determination is. By this, I mean a fundamental right: that the ethnically distinct Uighurs have the right to decide if they want to be part of China.
People in Xinjiang have never been offered this choice. Those in Urumqi now live in a city that is 70 per cent Han Chinese. They were in hiding on Tuesday as thousands of armed Chinese roamed the streets crying, “Exterminate the Uighurs.” The Government response to the Uighur explosion of frustration that sparked this crisis was to label them “separatists” and “terrorists” and to shoot them.
I am of China. But I cannot be a nationalist in a country where nationalism trumps democracy and is an excuse for brutal suppression of protest and dissent. The Uighur people are a politically oppressed minority and, from that political oppression, cultural and economic oppression follows. I cannot help but think that the prompt release of casualty numbers reflects an official attitude that the indigenous people of Xinjiang are not entitled to even the rights of regular Chinese citizens — or, to put it more simply, the domestic outrage they deserve.
I can only hope the world understands that China has, in effect, declared war on an oppressed minority group within its own borders.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2009/07/09/1246732425586.html
Steve says
@ Zepplin #133: I don’t agree with your reasoning but that’s fine; these are just opinions anyway and one isn’t any better than another. Only time will tell how effective the policy is. My reasoning is simply that using this same tactic in Tibet hasn’t worked so I don’t see why it’d work here. I’m no expert on Xinjiang, never been there and never heard of Kadeer until last week. Therefore, all I know is what I read in the media or on this site and that is all secondhand information. I think most are in the same boat as I am. We compare similarities when it suits our argument, and stress differences for the same reason. “Xinjiang is like this other country or region”… “no it isn’t, it’s completely different” or “you can’t compare Kadeer to this person”… “oh, yes you can”.
I think it’s pretty universal what we can agree on: Murder was committed and there is no excuse for it, regardless of the circumstances. Therefore, the Uyghurs who murdered innocent Han should be punished, and the Han who murdered innocent Uyghurs should be punished. Both should receive the same punishment. After that, no one seems to agree.
Were China’s minority policies ineffective in Xinjiang and a major cause of the discontent? Yes/No
Were outside influences directly responsible for the riot and murder? Yes/No
Are foreign media reporting on the riot in a more evenhanded manner? Yes/No
Is Chinese media reporting on the riot in a more evenhanded manner? Yes/No
Should Kadeer be targeted as the main reason for the riots? Yes/No
Do Han in Xinjiang engage in racist hiring practices? Yes/No
At this point, the real question would be, “How can incidents like this one best be avoided in the future?” You can’t excite the “rabble” if the “rabble” are prosperous. From the three videos Allen presented, the “rabble” are not prosperous and trapped in a permanent debt cycle. The local government is corrupt. Fixing that is a good place to start. Finding ways to integrate the varied cultures is an obvious solution. From everything I’ve seen and read, the cultures live segregated lives. If it can be shown with positive proof that various individuals were planted in the crowd with orders to begin murdering Han and inciting others in the crowd to also do so, and that these planted individuals received training and money from outside the country, then a diplomatic battle should be waged to bring the perpetrators to justice in the countries where they live.
@ Allen #161: No, because it would not be in the best interest of those countries to do so. But isn’t this a moot point? I thought the ETIM was on the list of international terrorists organizations. Doesn’t it mean that promoting them is in violation of this international accord?
Steve says
@ Wahaha #148: Wasn’t me. I never delete posts entirely. I always leave a reason why I deleted them and I do so in capital letters.
@ Shane: I deleted #106 for the reasons cited. It wasn’t a politically incorrect remark, it was a racist slur preceded by an ad hominum attack. I probably would have overlooked the ad hominum attack but the racist slur definitely crossed the line.
Wahaha says
Hemulen,
I post again.
In New York, the boards of buildings often reject Indian buyers, even very rich indian buyers, because the smell of their cooking is so intense and sometimes you can smell it even you close the door. So once an Indian family move in, other buyers have less interest in buying the apartment in the building, hence the value of building drop significantly.
Is it discrimination ? hardly, in my opinion. People usually have great trouble working and living with other people who have different life style and habits.
Han businessmen went to XinJiang try to make money, the life style and the way of working of Uighur dont fit Han chinese’s habit.Simple as that, so dont try to generalize your hatred to chinese people.
Yes, the way CCP to achieve its goal is very questionable (rarely pay attention to how people feel and following consequence), you can bash it, no problem, but dont make a big fussy like Han chinese hate Uighurs. They did that not cuz they are Uighur If CCP thinks there is potential danger of religious activity by Han people, ti will do that same, you know that.
Like the police violence in Tibet, police violence is all over China, people hate it. Why do people like you always try to make it look like a regional problem ? (and What is funny is that some people are also very violent, there are lot of case people kidnapped other people who they believe are responsible for something bad.)
Charles Liu says
Steve @ 168
Were China’s minority policies ineffective in Xinjiang and a major cause of the discontent?
– No, as the reason Kadeer/WUC called the protest was slavery of Uyghurs in Guangdong, and Chinese governemnt not holding anyone responsible for 100s of Uyghur massacred in Gangdong factory. Discontent manifested in the riot were caused by these false accusations, not any well-intended but ineffective mionority policy.
Were outside influences directly responsible for the riot and murder?
– Yes, as the protest was called by Kadeer and WUC, entities hosted and funded by foreign governments
(undecided on the media questions)
– Should Kadeer be targeted as the main reason for the riots?
Yes, I presented my reasoning in comment 162.
– Do Han in Xinjiang engage in racist hiring practices?
Indictment of entier group of people, based on one picture? No.
Shane9219 says
@Steve #169
First of all, I am NOT asking you to restore the original post, and secondly, if you decided to delete, it is probably a good idea just to delete the whole item, instead of masking out with your own words. Since that can be perceived as a personal attack, because of the application of your own emotion and standard. I hope you can see my point is fair here.
Again, my one liner was responding to a direct question “being poor, should do anything”, and I said
“the question showed you still lack of understanding on Muslin faith. Muslins are not like MMMM, willing to do anything”
Shane9219 says
@rolf #167
I can read his POV and where he came from. Wu’er Kaixi is a guy who has long been discredited. You may want to check out his personal behavior in Taiwan. That said a lot about this person.
Steve says
@ Charles: Thanks for your summary. For every one of your answers (except #3 of course) there have been opinions taking the opposite side. My point was that unless more facts are presented that can change minds, none of these points will reach common consensus. That’s why I tried to concentrate on what can change to prevent it from happening in the future. Having just read DJ’s report of his phone conversation, what he learned might provide new clues on why this happened but we still need to wait until the discovery process is complete.
Jumping to conclusions can be satisfying but it is mostly reasoning based on guesswork. We can only work with what we have available and when no all the information is available or contradictory statements are issued, it’s natural for differing opinions to emerge.
Steve says
@ Shane #172: Everyone else seems to prefer having a reason given for deletion. I’m going to continue to do so. If you don’t like that method, my best recommendation is to stay within the posted rules. The standard I use is stated in the posted rules.
Charles Liu says
@ Steve, what I said are based on facts. If you want them cataloged I’d be happy to do the homework for you.
Steve says
@ Charles: I’m not arguing with you or disputing anything you said. I was stating the positions taken by various commentators in this post. Are you saying that everyone on this blog has reached common consensus on every point I raised?
I’m not asking for facts, I’m asking for proof. I’ve read all sorts of accusations but have seen very few proofs. (Note: I said “very few”, not “none”) Someone accusing someone else of something isn’t a proof, it’s an accusation. It’s a fact they were accused. I can already catalogue a bunch of those from different sides and viewpoints so no, I don’t need your help on that one.
Shane9219 says
@Steve
No question here. I support your moderation. But it may be a good idea just to put a simple word “deleted” there.
Steve says
@ Shane: I could do as you say but then the complaint would be, “Why was my post deleted?” That’s what we’ve found in the past. I’m open to suggestions about this but so far we’ve been going with what most people have commented they preferred. I’ve tried to keep it as consistent as I can and hope I’ve succeeded. If you ever feel I’m being arbitrary, please let me know.
It’d actually be much easier for me to use the one word. You may want to read the comments in the “open thread” section to see other’s reactions. In fact, this conversation really needs to take place in that forum.
raventhorn4000 says
Speaking of discriminations in Europe and China,
The Hui People are actually traced back to Persia, and have shared genetic ancestors as the European Gypsies.
http://lanzhou.china.com.cn/english/China/143738.htm
The Hui people arrived in China some 200 years before the Gypsies set foot in Europe.
Yet, Hui People assimilated into China, but their ethnic cousins in Europe endured a long history of ethnic cleansing by various nations of Europe. Even today, racial discrimination against Gypsies (Roma/Sinti) goes on in Europe.
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c22529,458aa8ef2,49749d1b2d,0.html
Between 200,000 and 1.5 million Sinti and Roma from Germany and German-occupied countries were killed in the concentration camps, in mobile gas chambers and by firing squad in villages and towns. Over 25,000 of the 40,000 officially registered German and Austrian Sinti and Roma were killed by May 1945.
Current issues
The criminalization of Roma and Sinti by the state and federal authorities continues despite denials.
21 November 2008 – Two United Nations human rights experts today expressed grave concern over the recent rise in anti-Roma sentiment and violent incidents in several European countries, calling for a stronger response from governments.
“Effective action is required to stem the growing tide of hostility, anti-Roma sentiment and violence across Europe,” UN Independent Expert on minority issues Gay McDougall said in a statement.
*
*
*
One should wonder why is it that Europe with its well-established principles of human rights, continue to discriminate against the Gypsies, even though Gypsies were clearly victims of racism during the Holocaust as well as the Jews?
Nimrod says
rolf #167:
Wu’er Kaixi’s article in The Age is disappointing. I also understand the news in Taiwan has been pretty one-sided on these issues so I suppose it’s understandable, especially if he wants to seek that kind of attention in Taiwan. Here is another one on Wu’er Kaixi’s views.
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/wuerkaixi-07072009144343.html
raventhorn4000 says
UK Times online, reports/speculates “secret Taxi window signals” that coordinated the planned protest in Xinjiang.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6689733.ece
Several days before Uighur demonstrators gathered in the streets of the northwest city of Urumqi last Sunday in a protest that began China’s bloodiest bout of civil unrest for 20 years, secret signs started appearing in taxi windows.
Local security chiefs missed the signals. The clues were important because they were alerting Uighurs in the capital of Xinjiang province to demonstrate against the Han Chinese.
The signals told the Uighurs to avenge the racially motivated killings of two Uighur migrant workers that had occurred last month in a toy factory in southern Guangdong province, triggered by rumours that they had raped several women.
As a result the authorities were caught off guard when the protests erupted, amid erroneous stories that the killers of the Uighurs had been allowed to go free.
The taxi signals suggest that the rioting by the Uighur minority was not entirely spontaneous. Having suppressed the violence by flooding the city with tens of thousands of troops and police, China’s authorities are hunting for a fringe of extremists who they accuse of organising the rioting. They have promised the ringleaders will be executed.
….
raventhorn4000 says
This includes a very very detailed historical tracing of people in Xinjiang and Chinese claim to the territory, documented by several Western Historians.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/weekinreview/12wong.html?pagewanted=all
raventhorn4000 says
Here is a very detailed and personal blog of an American Teacher’s life in Xinjiang.
(unfortunately, she has not updated much on the recent riots). Hope she’s OK.
http://blogs.princeton.edu/pia/personal/schristmas/2009/06/
Hemulen says
@Wahaha
Your post about smelly Indian is just amazing. You are my secret weapon.
Shane9219 says
Here is a TimeOnline report showed the event was organized and promoted in secrete days before it broke out. It is good now that foreign media started to dig deeper. If this is from a Chinese source, it would be immediately discredited by the West. Just look how those self-appointed “human rights watchers” jumped up immediately to contest and dispute the human death toll after China released it.
============================
“Security chiefs failed to spot signs calling for Uighur revolt”
“Several days before Uighur demonstrators gathered in the streets of the northwest city of Urumqi last Sunday in a protest that began China’s bloodiest bout of civil unrest for 20 years, secret signs started appearing in taxi windows.
Local security chiefs missed the signals. The clues were important because they were alerting Uighurs in the capital of Xinjiang province to demonstrate against the Han Chinese.
The signals told the Uighurs to avenge the racially motivated killings of two Uighur migrant workers that had occurred last month in a toy factory in southern Guangdong province, triggered by rumours that they had raped several women.
The taxi signals suggest that the rioting by the Uighur minority was not entirely spontaneous. … ”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6689733.ece
Steve says
@ R4K #180: Interesting about the Hui originally being Gipsies. Even before Persia, they were from northern India, same as the Aryans. When they came to Europe and people asked where they were from, they said Egypt and that they had come to see the holy places. That kept them from being thrown out. “Egyptians” eventually morphed into “Gipsies”.
Wahaha says
Hemulen,
Tell me : is it discrimination ? if it is, then anyone who have troubles to work with people people of different habits are racist.
Tell me : if you had an apartment in the building, would you mind if board sold one of the apartments to them ? I know most of them mind, White, black, chinese.
raventhorn4000 says
1 interesting note about Uighur Gitmo detainees:
US reports that the only trouble they experienced with the Uighurs in Gitmo was when on 1 occasion, they saw a woman’s bare arm on TV, and they immediately threw and broke the TV set.
Now, as noted by many Wester Journalists, a lot of Uighur women and girls do not cover themselves up, have a lot of bare arms and midriffs.
*There seems to be an inconsistency. Why would Uighur Gitmo detainees be offended by images of a woman’s bare arm, when they must have seen plenty of that in Xinjiang?
1 explanation would be that they are not Uighurs. Why would they lie, and who would they really be? Perhaps by pleading that they are Uighurs, they hoped to get out of Gitmo? But they couldn’t have known that US would let them off and resettle. So that explanation is rather illogical.
2nd explanation is that these Uighurs in Gitmo have already gone through extensive radical Islamic indoctrination, and now embrace a much more intolerant form of Islam, one which would require women to cover up themselves.
*it would be not surprising that some Uighurs would turn to more radical form of Islam, through contacts with terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
raventhorn4000 says
Steve,
Yes, I find it interesting too. Though I think the author implied that only 1 branch of Hui might have been gypsies, since Hui was a large category.
Though I am shocked to find that persecution of Gypsies is still on going in many EU member nations.
It seems that EU is not beyond sweeping HR problems under its proverbial rugs.
Shane9219 says
A few what-if questions can be asked here:
What if a few Koreans got killed by a riot in Korea?
What if a few Japanese got killed by a riot in Japan?
What if a few white Americans got killed by a riot in US?
Shane9219 says
also a few white Australians get killed by riot in Australia?
kui says
I finally got back on my feet after sufferring the worst flu of my life. Returning to work today, I found that most of my colleges do not even know the riot. A Registered Nurse from Hongong seems to be the only person knows what had happened in Xinjiang. According to her, it was “oppressed minorities seeking justice”. Not really a surprise. I think I have better understanding of the so called “free media” now after Tibet riot, torch relay, and Xinjiang riot. It is a media in which the journalists can freely ignore mountaining facts, hard evidence, and the whole picture. It is a media where the reporters can freely use hear-says as “evidence” as long as it helps with the reporters’ agenda and meet the audiences’ needs. It looks like the Uhigers are now being seen as the victims, the Hans are the aggressors and the Chinese government is certainly doing every thing wrong. Their language skills are amazing! They can really turn white into black!
raventhorn4000 says
Just another opportunity for NED to recycle their old propaganda material.
It’s actually kinda of funny that NED conducts regular “training sessions” for WUC on “Chinese Oppressive Rule in Xinjiang”.
Well, Why would Uighurs need “training session” on that, if supposedly they witnessed all that 1st hand in Xinjiang?
Shane9219 says
A short article on World Journal discussing the the historic background of Uighur separatism.
The article’s coverage is pretty complete, except Uighur also has a connection with the Muslin riches in the Gulf region, there are more Uighur separatism factions then the three mentioned in the article.
“疆獨的歷史情結”
A partial translation (mostly by google translation with minor modification)
“”The history complex of Xinjiang Separatism ”
“Historically, Xinjiang separatist movement goes back to ancient times. So-called “East Turkestan ” launched several volts, continued throughout near modern history try to establish an independent state. In the second half of the 19th century, GB and Russia, two great empires launched “big game” rivalry in Central Asia for spheres of influence. British invasion of Afghanistan from the north India and Tibet, and Russia after the annexation of West Turkestan, coupled with the gradual decline of the Qing Dynasty rule in Xinjiang, the establishment of the East Turkestan soil; continued since the Soviet Union, did not forget this old history and repeatedly tried the re-establishment of East Turkestan.
1960s of the hostile relationship between China and the Soviet Union, many Uighurs fled to the Soviet Union from Xinjiang, got trained there, then returned to stir up trouble in Xinjiang. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, various Turkis republics of Soviet Union became independent one after another in Central Asia.. Similarity on the Turkic-like language, longing for a revival of the old pan-Turkism, ethnic Uighurs again become motivated for independence.
During the 19th century, the promotion of the “Pan-Turkism” hoped that all of the Turkic-like peoples (Turkey, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Uygur, Kazak, etc.) join together to set up a “big Turkestan.”
During the same period, Ottoman Empire sent a lot of imams and religious teachers to Xinjiang and had a far-reaching influence there. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, the independence of many Central Asian Turkic languages Islamic countries, the idea of a restoration of the Turkish Empire gained traction inside Turkey.
Uygurs exile established “Eastern Turkestan Liberation Organization” in 1996 in Turkey. It advocates the use of violent means to establish East Turkestan. Through those effort, exile Uighurs reestablished strong connection with Turkey for independence cause due to their historical links. The Turkish Government, under pressure from China , has to ban a number of Uighur extremist groups inside its territory.
There are also a large number of Turkish immigrants in Germany. In 2004, “East Turkestan National Congress” and “World Uyghur Youth Congress” merged into “World Uyghur Congress.” in Munich, Germany. Kadeer became the permanent President of this organization.”
http://www.worldjournal.com/pages/full_news/push?article-%E7%96%86%E7%8D%A8%E7%9A%84%E6%AD%B7%E5%8F%B2%E6%83%85%E7%B5%90%20&id=2937704-%E7%96%86%E7%8D%A8%E7%9A%84%E6%AD%B7%E5%8F%B2%E6%83%85%E7%B5%90&instance=m2b
raventhorn4000 says
I think it’s time that China leveraged Kurdistan to make a point to Turkey.
Allen says
Here is story from the New Dominion on how Turkey’s media is slandering China.
http://www.thenewdominion.net/1016/1016/
FOARP says
@Allen – One of the alarming things about this website has been the progressive radicalisation of many of the contributors.
kui says
Can anyone translate this article?
http://www.popyard.com/cgi-mod/newspage.cgi?num=3606.18&r=0&v=0
新疆暴乱，美国之耻。
Allen says
@FOARP #198,
I am traveling and haven’t had the chance to get caught up reading all the comments. I won’t be able to regularly check for at least a week.
But quickly to your point about “radicalisation” – can you describe in more detail what you mean if you have time – for everyone’s benefit.
According to wikipedia, “political redicalism” can be described as a “political orientation that favors fundamental, drastic, revolutionary changes in society, literally meaning “changes at the roots”.”
According to wikipedia, “fundamentalism” relating to “a belief in, and strict adherence to a set of basic principles (often religious in nature), sometimes as a reaction to perceived doctrinal compromises with modern social and political life.”
If I have to guess what you mean by “radicalisation,” perhaps you mean the practice of an ideology (perhaps nationalism) at such a “fundamentalist” level that it produces intolerant and militant type attitudes?
In any case, if you point out the details of what you mean for everyone – I am sure those who come here with an open mind will pick up your points…
raventhorn4000 says
FOARP:
“progressive radicalisation of many of the contributors.”
You are exaggerating. We have not gone to the extent of using fake photos to report news, nor have we advocated any sort of violence.
Steve says
@ R4K: As Allen suggested, why don’t we let FOARP describe what he means in more detail before we respond. How can you say he’s exaggerating before you know what he meant?
raventhorn4000 says
Steve,
you are right. I have no idea why the “contributors here are” radicals by any meaning of the word.
raventhorn4000 says
Latest news update: (on the true radical front).
Al-Qaeda declares war of revenge on Chinese civilians for Xinjiang.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=a_dopeH2Mcbs
Al-Qaeda Group Vows to Avenge Uighur Deaths in China
Steve says
@ R4K: I just ran across the same sort of article, this one from the Times Online and written by Jane Macartney.
raventhorn4000 says
This one more interesting, regarding yesterday’s police shooting of 3 Uighurs in Urumqi,
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_402959.html
Uighurs called for ‘jihad’
BEIJING – THREE Uighur men tried to incite other Muslims to launch a ‘jihad’ and attacked a mosque security guard before police shot and killed two of them, state media reported on Tuesday.
The incident began when around 150 Muslims were praying in a mosque in Urumqi, the capital of the northwest Xinjiang region on Monday, Xinhua news agency said, citing an unnamed imam who was giving a service at the time.
One man stood up and tried to take over the prayers but was stopped, the imam told Xinhua. A few minutes later the man reportedly stood up holding a green banner and started calling for a ‘jihad’.
The imam then ended the prayers, adding: ‘We will definitely not follow you. Get out!”, according to Xinhua.
As the man was being ordered from the mosque, two other men took out three 50 centimetre long knives from a bag, Xinhua said.
Security guards then tried to stop the men. One of the guards, aged in his 40s who did not want to give his name, said the group chased him out of the mosque wielding the knives where they met patrolling police, Xinhua said.
Police fired warnings shots to try to stop the men before shooting at the three, killing two and injuring one.
raventhorn4000 says
These information may be “post event validation” but I think they are still increasing the evidence of terrorist groups in Xinjiang.
Shane9219 says
China demands other countries to stop funding “East Turkistan terrorists”
“China on Tuesday strongly demanded that unnamed “relevant countries” stop their support for “East Turkistan terrorists” in the wake of the Urumqi riots.“
“Qin did not elaborate on the “relevant countries.”
But U.S. State Department spokesman Ian Kelly confirmed at a press conference on Monday that a U.S. organization had provided funding for the World Uygur Congress led by Rebiya Kadeer, which the Chinese believe was behind the Urumqi riots and a series of protests at Chinese embassies worldwide.
“I do know that her organization does receive funds from the National Endowment for Democracy, which receives its funds from Congress,” Kelly said. “”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/14/content_11708335.htm
This is first time that I knew openly demand US Congress and NED to stop funding terrorist organization.
Steve says
@ Shane: Is the WUR listed as a terrorist organization? I thought the only one was the ETIM.
Shane9219 says
@Steve
Should US be the only country with legal right to define terrorist organizations ?
Steve says
@ Shane: If the US declares an organization terrorist and no one else does, then it only applies to US soil. If many countries declare an organization terrorist, then it applies to all of those countries’ soil. If only China declares the WUR as a terrorist organization (have they already done this?) then it would apply only to China.
The declaration of an organization as terrorist isn’t legal, it’s political and occurs through negotiation.
raventhorn4000 says
Steve,
US routinely demand that other countries stop any group that “have ties” with listed terrorist groups.
http://www.pvtr.org/pdf/RegionalAnalysis/AsiaPacific/AnAl-QaedaAssociateGroupOperatinginChina.pdf
this article is interesting, relating to the funding of ETIM.
Steve says
@ R4K: Listed by whom?
raventhorn4000 says
Steve,
It’s fine if US doesn’t wish to honor other country’s lists, but that would define the limit of “cooperation” that it will receive in the future.
Steve says
@ R4K: The US has already accepted the ETIM as a terrorist group, so there is already cooperation. However, you did not answer my question. Listed by whom? The Chinese government? When did they list it? Where is this list? Can you find a list of everyone the Chinese government considers terrorists? I have never seen one before. I have heard the Chinese government say that WUR was behind the riot, but not that they were listed as a terrorist organization. I’m not disagreeing with you, just trying to get confirmation.
Now that Al Qaeda has announced they are targeting overseas Chinese, especially in Algeria, I’m sure the Chinese government is glad that Al Qaeda is on everyone’s list.
raventhorn4000 says
Steve,
I don’t know if you can find a complete list of terrorist groups in US. Many groups are determined on case by case basis.
Bottomline, China considers WUC to be behind the riot, and it is 1 of the funding sources for ETIM.
*
Regarding the al-Qaeda group in Africa, it goes by a different name than Al-Qaeda. Its own name is actually “Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat” (SGPC).
Now, “Al-Qaeda” is actually a network of similar groups, all with different names.
Do you want to run down the list in US and see if all of the “Al-Qaeda” “branches” are on the list?
Steve says
No, I was interested in seeing China’s list of terrorist organizations. You mentioned “listed terrorist groups” in your earlier comment #212 and I had just never seen a list from China.
raventhorn4000 says
I think you are taking the word “list” too literally.
China has a set of groups that it considers as “terrorist” in nature and as threats to Chinese national security. Whether China list them 1 at a time, or in 1 laundry list, is really irrelevant to the categorization of these groups.
raventhorn4000 says
Here a very detailed Western analysis of NED ties to WUC and recent riot.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0907/S00161.htm
Steve says
@ R4K: Ok, if “list” isn’t literal, then when did China decide that the WUC was a terrorist organization and where did China list the WUC, either by itself or on a laundry list? How can the WUC be a terrorist organization if China never declares them to be a terrorist organization? How is the rest of the world supposed to know this? Was it a state secret?
#220 is an opinion piece. I don’t think it makes a definitive case at all. Was it just a coincidence that the riots occurred shortly after the murders of the Uighurs in Guangdong province? Or was that just an excuse? Either way you look at it, it’s all speculative.
Nimrod says
Since terrorism (except for the anarchist kind) is merely politics with guns, it’s difficult to pin down what role the WUC plays and its relation with ETIM. (Isn’t WUC just the umbrella organization after all the Xinjiang separatist groups merged?) After all, you also hear that only the militant branch of Hamas is terrorist, while Hamas itself is some humanitarian organization, and even now, a political party…
Suffice it to say, WUC or ETIM are all unwelcome/banned by China, so I agree with raventhorn4000, international “cooperation” on terrorism is political, and as such it makes sense to request cease and desist any unfriendly behavior to you and calibrate your own relationship and level of cooperation based on the response.
Steve says
@ Nimrod: I agree with your assessment. If China believes the WUC is a terrorist organization and is tied in with ETIM, they need to provide evidence and request they be put on an international terrorist organization list. It’s a political issue.
raventhorn4000 says
Steve,
You ask for a level of proof that US and EU never had to go before. 9/11 ties only to Bin Laden. 100’s of the umbrella groups that are tied to Al-Qaeda network, have they all been “proven” by US? In what court? Where are the evidence that you speak of?
Nimrod says
Steve,
In an ideal world, there is a set of rules you can check to see if something is evidence like in a court of law. In politics much like in life, it’s more about trust and alliances. If an ally says some body is a terrorist organization, it is not about the evidence provided, but whether you will back up your ally. In any case you can always “find” the evidence you need and stretch it to fit the bill. If it is a strategic competitor like China, on the other hand, even evidence may not be enough political capital to move you.
raventhorn4000 says
In which case, I guess China should demand some proof from US for its rather long list, otherwise, let’s all get selective about our “favorite” terrorists.
🙂
Steve says
@ Nimrod & R4K: As Nimrod suggests, this isn’t a “court” issue but a political one. However, neither the US nor China are going to accept each other’s lists without some sort of valid reasoning since the two countries, though not enemies, are also not allies. Also, with the change of US administrations, I’m not sure if the Obama people would be as apt to accept the Chinese reasoning as the Bush administration was. I think the Bush people were more pragmatic and less ideological when it came to relations with China.
@ R4K: I don’t know which terrorist organizations China and the US have in common or even where to find such a list. It’d be interesting to see it.
raventhorn4000 says
I’m not disputing that, Steve,
I’m saying that if US holds China’s “proof” to a higher standard than the one that US got in the past, then I think it’s time for “renegotiations”.
raventhorn4000 says
Jakarta Indonesia just got bombed by “terrorists”.
Time for WSJ to go dig up some “persecution stories”?
Or sticking to US and Indonesian government briefings?
Ted says
@Allen # 93: Very interesting clips, thanks for the post.
@ Raj: “Whereas if the CCP said that actually they did have legitimate grievances and they needed to be addressed, Han people would probably have more tolerance for Uighurs as a whole and stop thinking that they have it easy, maybe seeing things from the Uighur perspective.”
Couldn’t agree more. Blaming the whole thing on outsiders underestimates people’s capacity for understanding and, in my opinion, casts Uighurs as outsiders in their own country. I think labeling the riots as an act of terrorism rather than a tragic outpouring of discontent is also a pretty immature way of handling the situation and works against resolution.
@Hemulen #144: “I’m just saying that it’s outrageous that an ethnic group that was the overwhelming majority in Xinjiang only fifty years ago now are openly discriminated against in their own region/country or whatever you may want to call it. People who have lived in Kashgar for generations are unable to obtain employment because they are Uighurs and the government tolerates it. If that is not a scandal, I don’t know what is.”
Thanks for that and your earlier posts.
Wukailong says
@Steve (#226): I’m not sure but it seems that the US and China agree on several of the Uighur separatist organizations as being “terrorist.” I’m not sure if it’s just the two of them scratching each other’s backs with the terrorist listings, but anyway I’ve heard they agree on them.
Btw, a couple of days ago it was said that the national security level in the US is “orange”, which means a high risk of terrorist attack. I wonder how they measure this. Sorry, this is off topic, but an interesting read:
“When Attorney General John Ashcroft came to Minnesota recently, he said the fact that there had been no terrorist attacks in America in the three years since September 11th was proof that the Bush administration’s anti-terrorist policies were working. I thought: There were no terrorist attacks in America in the three years before September 11th, and we didn’t have any terror alerts. What does that prove?”
http://www.schneier.com/essay-059.html
Steve says
@ WKL #230: Are there several they agree on? I had only heard of the ETIM but I’ve never researched it much. I figured if there were more, Charles would have mentioned them already. 😉
I have never been able to figure out the terrorist alert color scheme warnings. I think they just raise and lower them arbitrarily to justify their bureaucracy’s vapid existence. I’d be willing to bet all my money that considerably less than 10% of the American public knows the current terrorist alert color or what risk factor is involved. Until you told me, I had no idea it was orange or even what orange meant.
It’s hard to quantify how many terrorist attacks the US government has thwarted but I’d guess it’s a few, so I think you have to give them some credit. But it’s all guesswork. My guess is that the FBI has discovered most of them and Homeland Security virtually none. I think Homeland Security is a huge waste of money.
raffiaflower says
Ugh. this woman is really horrible…it’s hard to see how she can be regarded as “genuine”. She had a similar China-bashing editorial in The Times which basically spewed the same lies and I almost pucked over it….just so blatant. But then The Times has had an anti-China policy well since the early 20th century
Charles Liu says
Boy Ted, I thought we had agreed “legitimate grievances” do not justify the killing of innocent people.
I think some of you need to just be brave and say what you really think – those 130 Hans deserved it.
raventhorn4000 says
“which basically spewed the same lies”
And Western Media have the nerve to accuse Chinese media of “recycling old propaganda”.
Duh, because you brought back Kadeer’s old face to recycle her old tired justifications, and Dalai Lama’s old “genocide” accusations.
Always, “genocide”, genocide, genocide.
can’t come up with something a little more original?
Ted says
@ Charles # 233: “I think some of you need to just be brave and say what you really think – those 130 Hans deserved it.”
Grow up.
Individualist says
raventhorn4000 Says:
“Always, “genocide”, genocide, genocide.”
Tell you what when the Chinese government tries something more creative that mass murder to solve their political strife we will think up new criticisms.
The chinise court arrested Mr. Kadeers youngest son in 2006. On Mrch 25,2006 they begon torturing him. He confessed. Evidently he has no appeal becasue the fact that one is tortured is not grounds for dismissal in China.. Yet I am supposed to take as Gospel causalty figures by the lying thug trash that rule China. The countries government is filth which is why protestors in Nanking on the other side of China are overturning cars to protest furniture taxes. The Uighurs are giving the chinese slavocracy problems you say! GOOD!
http://shermansmarch.blogspot.com/2009/07/by-individualist-theindividualistcomcas.html
raventhorn4000 says
“Tell you what when the Chinese government tries something more creative that mass murder to solve their political strife we will think up new criticisms.”
Tell you what, when you actually manages to convict/prove a few more “genocide” in the world, perhaps we will believe you. Boys crying wolf.
beat down terrorism,separatism and extremism!!! says
you have all dicussed in a wrong way!!!
a china including han chinese and all the other ethnic groups ,including tibet,xinjiang and taiwan,is now and will forever be one and inseparable!!! because the real and only law of the world is the jungle law!!!
we chinese(chinese of 56 ethnic groups) and our incomparably superior communist party will never let an extremely minimum number of separatists achieve their illegal and evil goals even at the expense of blood!!!
have i and my warnings been inhuman?absolutely not,just the truth!!! what i have proclaimed is full of liberal and democratic values because it protects and is consistent with the peace and benefits of all the chinese people of 56 ethnic groups.if such stabilizing actions are wrong,then ask usa people why Abraham Lincoln has been recognized as the greatest president ,who ordered the civil war that had killed hundreds of thousands of southerners instead of giving enough respect and recognition to the south’s withdrawal and independence from the union?
and i want to warn an extremely minimum number of foreigners with evil purposes to interfere with china’s domestic affairs to constrict their actions. because we chinese have our own values of state over individual,entirety over part,long-standing peace over temporary pain!!!
anyone,any country,any organization that dares to separate china by means of inflaming ethnic hatred,is sure to be wiped off the map by heroic chinese people with the strength of only a little finger!!!
Wukailong says
Hmm, the last entry is a Rorschach test for everyone to think about. I don’t know if it’s real or not.
admin says
In its August 2 issue, the Hong Kong newsweekly Yazhou Zhoukan interviews Heyrat Niyaz, a Uyghur journalist, blogger, and AIDS activist. In the interview, Heyrat tells of how he tried to warn officials that “blood would flow” in Urumchi on July 5 and gives his thoughts about the background to the ethnic rioting.
http://siweiluozi.blogspot.com/2009/07/heyrat-niyaz-on-july-5-riots-in-urumchi.html
Steve says
Thanks for that article, admin! What Niyaz wrote made more sense to me than anything I’ve yet read on the subject.
Jason says
Oh God! Rebika “Liar and no-evidence” Kadeer claims 10,000 Uighur are missing.
raventhorn4000 says
China should respond: “10,000 Uighurs have been kidnapped and smuggled by Kadeer into terrorist camps in the West.”
Explain that, Kadeer! 🙂
Wukailong says
@admin: So Hizb-ut-Tahrir has something to do with this. That’s interesting. That organization, while not exactly keeping a high profile, have caused controversies in the UK and Denmark by making remarks on killing of kafr/kuffar (Arabic for infidels) as well as threatening critics. I recommend everyone interested to have a look at their webpage:
http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php
Of course, most of the people above only seem to be interested in this Rebiya Kadeer… Sigh.
Steve says
@ Wukailong #244: You and I both had the same impression after reading what admin linked to. I wonder if they acted too quickly in naming a culprit since in the long run this one looks more dangerous, at least to me.
Uln says
@admin #240 –
Very interesting interview. How credible is this Heyrat Niyaz? At any rate, most of what he says makes sense. Actually it is not surprising at all that islamist groups like that one had a role in the violence. Like in neighbouring refions, young muslim Uygurs become frustrated and turn to radical islam. This is happening already in Xinjiang for a long time, no doubt.
When the Chinese governent have decided to focus all their attacks on Kadeer, I think this is just part of their image war against the Western media. Behind the scenes, I am sure the CCP is aware that the real danger are the islamists. The question of whether Kadeer is in contact and financing these groups, or whether she is just completely clueless about them, is certainly important – if contact is proven it might lead to discrediting once and for all the American NED.
But in the long term, the really important question for China is not to beat Kadeer (that should be easy!) but rather to understand why those Uygurs turn to radical Islam, and what can be done to control the situation from the roots now that it is still not completely out of control. Perhaps simple things like not destroying the old buildings of Kashgar, or like ensuring that there is no job discrimination, can go a long way to achieve this.
Finally, China should be very careful now. I have heard many opinions from proud Han saying that radical Uygurs are a tiny fraction of the total population, and they can never beat China. This is true, but still, if things turn really bad, the potential they have to harm China is enormous, just look at Chechenya, Palestina etc. where the strongest armies in the World cannot control the situation for decades. (China is still far from these examples, but worst case scenarios need to be considered).
I always thought that China has been very clever in the international scene, not getting mixed up in the whole crusade against islamism and managing to be the only Security Council country that was untouched by large-scale terrorism. If the CCP leaders are intelligent (and i think they are) they will manage to sort thngs out in away to avoid Al Qaeda complications.
admin says
@WKL,
Thanks for the link, I went there and found their most recent article about urumqi riots
http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/news-watch/muslim-countries/is-ethnicity-a-threat-to-chinese-society.html
@Uln,
I fully agree with you. I think no matter what the external factors are, the most important thing for Chinese government is to re-examine its own policies, which are clearly not working well.
Chops says
The Chinese govt blamed the Urumqi riots on external influence from Kadeer and her WUC.
“She was sentenced to an eight-year imprisonment in 2000 on charges of illegally disclosing state secrets, and was released on bail in 2005 to seek medical treatment in the United States.”
But the govt was responsible for her release to go for “medical treatment”, knowing full well she will not return to China. It appeared to be a US political deal and PR stunt ahead of the Beijing Olympics.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44393-2005Mar17.html
huaren says
Hi chops, #248,
If you look at all the U.N. votes related to “human rights” – the U.S./U.K looses basically most of the time. The world knows such votes are always politically motivated. I am sure the Chinese government is aware of this.
Washington needs to win political points domestically, so my guess is such releases are to trade for something else. When you are in your 50’s or 60’s, you will certainly always be sick of something. Anyways, we will just never know what the trade was for.
HRW etc needs to claim victory, and if you are to ask them directly, they’d tell you its their awesome work which allowed Kadeer to be set free.
Steve says
@ Chops & Huaren: Sometimes I think US foreign policy is determined too much by freeing dissidents in other countries rather than based on US national interests. It’s foreign policy based on lobbyist influence than our own strategic needs.
Chops, those “illegally disclosing state secrets” were, if I remember correctly, her mailing of newspaper articles out of the country. If they were state secrets, why did they appear in newspapers? Let’s face it, the “state secrets” charge is the catch-all phrase the government uses to arrest dissidents they don’t like. Having said that, I still don’t think it’s wise for a country to base its foreign policy decisions on the internal matters of other countries short of something atrocious like Jewish genocide or the Killing Fields in Cambodia.
Needless to say, at the time the Chinese government felt that what they were getting in return was worth the release of Kadeer from prison and her subsequent deportation.
Uln says
@Steve #250 – I agree, the accusations against RK are not to be taken very seriously. But it remains that she was released, and from the perspective of the CPC this could only be a miscalculation. I mean: if the party had realized just how fast we create heroes in the West, they surely wouldn’t have released her.
The thing now is that, with the facts we have in hand, I can only imagine 1 of 2 possible positions for RK, and neither of them is very flattering: 1- She is actually in contact with the radical islamist groups that organized the killings, 2- She is just an opportunist who jumped at the chance to get a name for herself after she saw the radical Uyghurs on TV go berserk (which was perhaps a surprise even for her).
Sincerely, from the way she spoke I fancy it is more like number 2. Also because a lady with her personal history can hardly be accepted by radical islamists as a leader (and have you ever seen any such group led by a woman?)
I have no new facts in my hands and I openly admit that this is speculation. But really there is something weird about this new Dalai Lama who is not Dalai and is not Lama.
By the way, I just wrote a bit about the media and the Xinjiang conflict. I try to look at it from a different point of view, check it out here:
Excuse the self-promotion.
huaren says
Hi Steve, #250,
I concur.
Hi Uln, #251,
Thx for your article and link to it. Its a great article and I would encourage FM readers to visit your blog. And thx for your plug at the end of your article for FM.
I agree with your characterization of the “Western” media. That London Evening Standard article claiming the Han Chinese woman with bloody nose as a victim of the police brutality – insanity! A lot of people take swipes at anti-CNN, but facts are facts and thx to anti-CNN for exposing it.
I recall CNN actually doctor’ed an image during their 3.14 reporting – they cropped an image to remove rioters with bricks on hand – resulting picture was a vacant street with two police trucks and debris all over the road. The meaning of the image got altered completely, by 180 degrees.
Btw – as you have noted, at least the XJTV is sticking with their long term goal of harmony. Can you count on “Western” media to think about society first? I think the “Western” media (not all, but many) have failed their societies miserably on many fronts. I think China’s media is vastly superior today – until if they change for the worse, of course.
Steve says
@ Uln: No problem at all with the link. We prefer to see links rather than just re-posting the same article. Incidentally, the link was an excellent post.
My personal opinion about media reporters is that they are trained and knowledgeable in how to write, but not in what they report. They don’t have much theoretical knowledge of their subjects and I think they get most of their information talking to fellow reporters in pubs over beers. One question I always ask friends is whether the news articles about their own professions are accurate, and the answer is always the same: No, not at all. That’s also been my experience.
I’m not as positive as you are concerning Chinese media. We should be able to expect more from them. For western media, they have the opportunity to report on what actually happened but are obligated to actually research it and know their subject material. The ones who fail, fail because of their own laziness, incompetence and bias. Chinese media has no opportunity to report the truth, only the truth as the party sees it. That to me is more of a mindless kind of reporting since your story is essentially pre-written before you even start it. As a reporter, you just take what you’re given and spice it up a bit to make it more readable. You don’t actually investigate since you’re using the investigation as supplied by the government. I think that’d be a frustrating job to hold. If a government creates restrictive rules and then follows those rules to the letter, I’m not sure that can qualify in my book as good reporting.
@ Huaren: I’d think someone could develop scan technology that could look at a photo and trace its authenticity, even if it’s been altered. I find it inexcusable with today’s technology for these photos to be misused by any media. It’s comparable to using manual Royal typewriters to write your articles. Oops, that might be true with a few of these guys! 😉
To be fair, China should be more interested in Chinese news than foreign countries would be. Typically, most media report foreign events when they happen but forget about the follow up in favor of national or local news. Foreigners should not care about Xinjiang as much as the Chinese people, since this riot was Chinese against Chinese. It’s a big deal to us since we all care about China, but we’re a small minority in today’s world.
JinghengTan says
I hate this sort of people
uln says
@Steve – My bit about watching XJTV was meant to be tongue in cheek, please do not try this at home or face the risk of irreversible brain damage after 10 minutes exposure…
I completely agree the Chinese media’s reporting was not good reporting. Actually that is the point: it was not even Reporting, and it was not even Media. In times of crisis the Chinese media goes completely under control and becomes a mere instrument of the State.
It is only from THIS point of view that I think they did a very good job.
I can feel it coming now, very soon I am going to be accused of commy-panda-hugger again…
Steve says
@ Uln: Do you mean I just wasted three hours of my time trying to bring in XJTV on my satellite??? 😉
Actually, your tongue in cheek argument kinda reminded me of the same argument about bringing people to court in China. Rulings aren’t made per the law, they’re made per the party. My friends in China all acknowledged this, though I think many outside China just assume that it’s the law that matters and not the party decision.
When Kadeer was convicted for revealing state secrets, it wasn’t really for revealing state secrets but actually for being in violation of party discipline. As long as you stay away from certain subjects, the amount of freedom in China right now is pretty decent. But if you cross certain boundaries, you’re going to jail regardless of the law.
It’s almost like a play where the actors all play their parts, recite their lines and the script goes according to plan. Conviction rate is almost 100% and when it’s not, it’s because the party decided not to convict. I’m not trying to be critical, just acknowledge that their system is different from our system and so when in Rome, it’s wisest to play by Rome’s rules, just as the media rules are different from ours. I read Chinese media so I know the official government position on various issues.
BTW, why are you a commie panda hugger???? 😛
Chops says
@ huaren & Steve –
Kadeer is more of an annoyance than a real threat to the Chinese government, and the government is still holding the cards, since her children are still in China.
“2. Also because a lady with her personal history can hardly be accepted by radical islamists as a leader (and have you ever seen any such group led by a woman?)”
Kadeer is definitely not fundamental enough, not covered from head to toe in burqa, and she appears to have some Chinese features in her looks, thanks no doubt to some distant ancestor.