A story published a few days ago in the LA Times talked about an Israeli organization, Shavei Israel, which helped a few Keifeng Jews to make Aliyah (immigrate to Israel). It quoted a few Kaifeng Jews having made the trip as saying how Israel is superior to China. Consider the title of the article:
“Chinese Jews Feel More At Home In Israel”
This is a trick used to make those in the west as well as Israel feel good about their own society. It legitimizes their own world. It’s self-congratulatory, self-serving. It’s message is, Chinese Jews would much more appreciate living in a western society than their own backward society. Even Chinese don’t feel their society is natural! What is better testimonial confirmation than from Chinese citizens themselves on the superiority of western civilization?
Also consider a few lines from the article:
Her father told her of a faraway land called Israel that he said was her rightful home, she recalls.
…
Jin has since fulfilled her father’s dream.
…
More recent arrivals have been in their early 20s and most have felt more at home in Israel than in Kaifeng.
…
After studying one year at Henan University in Kaifeng, the 25-year-old jumped at the opportunity to move to Israel. He hasn’t looked back. “I feel Israel is my home and I’m more comfortable here,” said Wang, who now refers to himself as Yaakov. “Israelis help you out when you need it; it’s like belonging to a big family.”
…
After his conversion, Wang plans to become a rabbi to help Kaifeng Jews immigrate to Israel. If he succeeds, he will be the first Chinese rabbi in almost 200 years.
…
Along with a newfound freedom of religion, the 14 Kaifeng Jews are looking forward to stretching their political wings.
“The first time I went to vote, it was raining hard and three of us went together,” Jin recalled. “I was so proud. For everyone else there it was just another election, but for us, it was the beginning of a new life.”
The message is clear. Chinese of any stripe would love to change their way of life to become more western if they could.
But what was left out in the margins? Well, Shavei Israel is an organization that pays people to immigrate to Israel. This is explicitly mentioned on their site.
Moreover, many of the people who end up immigrating do so in government subsidized settlements in the occupied West Bank or East Jerusalem (the Israeli government also subsidizes many Israeli citizens giving them loans and other incentives to live in those settlements).
So Shavei Israel pays these Kaifeng Jews to immigrate to Israel and the Israeli government further subsidizes their housing. Wow. Who wouldn’t say that they “feel more at home” in Israel than in China when your given free money to live there (actually in Occupied Palestine) . No mention of Shavei Israel’s activities in “assisting” with Aliyah, their private funding and the fact that people are additionally paid by the Israeli government to live in occupied territory is mentioned in the article. Many Israeli settlers were motivated by state funding for moving into the settlements and that is the only way the government can get many settlers to move because these areas are inherently dangerous. Also, many (tax exempt) private organizations from the US donate funds to the settlements to further colonization efforts.
Charles Liu says
Okay, so where’s the equivlant of “Chinese government are flooding Tibet with Hans” criticism?
zack says
wow, i’ve got to say, are the West really that desperate at maintaining the illusion that the Washington Consensus is the only way forward, that they’d stoop so low as to pull the jewish race card?
i mean let’s take last yr for an example of psyops; you had western media outlets proclaiming the 2 decade anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall (to emphasize the superiority of the liberal democratic system) then you had the very public granting of the nobel peace prize to Liu Xiaobo whose views synchronised very well with the views of a neocon elite.
i’ve just got to say, that given the mortal wound the west has given itself after the GFC, and its very obvious decline, that all this simply reeks of desperation
YinYang says
I just read this Chinese Jews joke [update Oct 20, 2011: this is meant as a real joke for some good laughs, so please don’t read more into it. :)]:
zack says
i wonder, will the LATimes write an article on the returning Overseas Chinese aka ‘Sea Turtles’ who set up shop in China? Those returning engineers, scientists, entrepreneurs?
oh, what’s that, you say they won’t?
now isn’t that a massive surprise?
JJ says
@zack
If they do, you can be sure they’ll include commentary about how these “Westernized” Overseas Chinese are “educating” the locals and how they are sacrificing the joys of the West to aid those backwards folks in the East…
Also, it’s sad how Ho Feng-Shan is all but forgotten.
He was a Chinese diplomat in Vienna during WW2 and risked his life and career to help save thousands of Jews from certain death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Feng-Shan
raventhorn says
By the same logic, US Jews and European Jews couldn’t wait to leave US and Europe to establish Israel, because they felt less comfortable in US and Europe than in the Middle East among Palestinians?
zack says
guys, it’s clear that in this day and age of western declinism and turmoil and austerity measures and riots over those selfsame austerity measures, that the media shrills/mouthpieces(NYT, LATimes, SMH, WSJ, Forbes etc) of those in power in those same western countries need to remind their ppl that “sure it’s bad now but at least we’re not China” as if they’re afraid that China’s booming economy, almost double digit growth rate, growing middle class, growing technological prowess would supplant their own countries and to that extent, their power.
Morton says
I think you guys are WAY too worked up over this one. I don’t think the point of the article was to put down China, but rather to show how a very small group of Chinese with Jewish heritage have re-connected with that side of their personality. These sorts of stories have been written about other Jewish minorities for years (look up the hundreds of articles about sponsored aliyahs for the thousands of Ethiopian Jews). Personally, I found it interesting to see how the new immigrants adjusted; what will be even more interesting is a follow-up in five years. Will they still love it? An open question.
Zack: a quick google search turns up two LA Times articles on ‘sea turtles.’ The first is from 2004, and the headline is ”Some Sea Turtles Find Foreign Degrees Don’t Float in China.’ The point of the piece is that China doesn’t need sea turtles because it has sufficient home-grown talent. See it here:
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/aug/08/world/fg-seaturtles8
The second article, from 2009, is headlined: “China Draws Skilled Chinese Back Home.” The subtitle says it all, I think: “Many who migrated to the U.S. are returning to an economy that offers richer career opportunities.” If this is putting down China, then I’d like to see what the praise looks like! The link is here: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/24/business/fi-china24
JJ – You say Ho Feng-Shan has been forgotten? Do you really believe this? Let me point out three things to you. First, in 2008, the US Senate passed a resolution honoring Ho. Here’s Senator Hatch’s explanation for why they did it: http://hatch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/releases?ID=6d94c391-1b78-be3e-e029-77ec7bf2c146
And second, Ho is held in such high regard that the Israeli government bestowed honorary citizenship on him in 2007, and went to Yiyang, Hunan Province, the site of his grave, to show he and his family proper respect! For more on that, see here: http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/events/china.asp
Finally, YinYang – I’m not sure what the point of printing that Jewish joke in the comments was. To suggest that Jews are racist toward Chinese? Because you think it’s funny? Whatever the case, it’s beneath the dignity of what you’re trying to do with this blog – ie, provide a counter-point to Western bias regarding China. Rather than post that, it might’ve been better to post some of the speeches from the Ho Feng-Shan ceremony from 2007. That, more than anything else I can think of, suggests the true Israeli feeling for China.
Mort
YinYang says
@Morton
That joke was meant as a joke and not to suggest anything. I thought it was hilarious.
Sounds like you are “WAY worked up?” 😉
Morton says
YinYang: Ha! Seems like this topic gets everybody worked up. Anyway, you got me, fair and square!
pug_ster says
It reminds me of the mass Emigration of the Russian Jews starting in the 1980’s. I recall that I start seeing many Russian Jews going to my school during the days and later in life have met many co-workers who was able to emigrate to the States under asylum. Apparently, when I asked them about their faith, most of them don’t even practice Judism, even though they came to the Status under Asylum. Who knows, maybe Some of these Chinese want to come to Israel because of the economic advantages while others are really faithful Jews.
melektaus says
@Morton
” I don’t think the point of the article was to put down China, but rather to show how a very small group of Chinese with Jewish heritage have re-connected with that side of their personality.”
I didn’t say it was its “point”. Merely that it did so. The point is irrelevant to the tone and the wording and ways it used to show the point.
Morton says
@melektaus
For goodness sake, there’s absolutely nothing in this article which should be construed as defaming China. Factually, it’s all spot on. In fact, if there’s anybody who comes off poorly, it’s the Israeli authorities who refuse to recognize Chinese Jews: “But Freund complained that Israel’s bureaucratic and religious red tape has prevented Shavei Israel from bringing over more of these Chinese Jews.”
I know this might be hard to believe, but articles like this actually tend to enhance China in the eyes of foreign readers, showing common cultural bonds. That’s why newspapers run them. The article did really well, in fact, trending on the LA Times popular list. Why? Because people love to read about how they can be connected to China. Articles about currency revaluation, Taiwan, etc, never get that kind of readership.
Seriously, you guys need to chill out about “tone” and stick to critiquing fact. This article is nothing but good, and if you’re upset at a little mention of voting at the end, well, I’d say you’re missing the point.
YinYang says
@Morton
I agree the article is good on the grounds you illustrated. However, there is a very negative undertone in the West regarding China for the reasons given here, also articulated by melektaus. Or as I have articulated here.
The tone is a problem, because it reinforces the predominant and simple Western media narrative of Chinese society being ‘bad’ and ‘oppressive.’ If you accept that narrative being ‘correct,’ then certainly I understand why you would find no fault with the article.
melektaus says
@Morton
“Factually, it’s all spot on.”
You keep talking about things I never denied. Like I said, the tone and the suggestive language is the problem. Anyone who thinks that there is only one way to present some supposed fact without it being misleading is a salesman’s dream (also known as a dupe). Someone really is missing the point. Unfortunately, the point has been expressed rather clearly so that is not the problem.
melektaus says
@Morton
Also notice that you are the one that should “chill out.” Notice that you don’t seem to have any contention with any factual content of my blog. So by your own lights, your responses seem to be unfounded. If not can you point to any single claim I made that was false? Stick to critiquing the facts.
melektaus says
I think Morton’s “concerns” are often of the type that is common among some westerners when there are issues of bias in reporting. They simply don’t understand that bias does not always come in the shape of reporting false information. It may also be reporting one side of the issue for example or reporting things in certain lights that are misleading.
Take the Israel-Arab conflict. By giving one side’s victims with far more a sympathetic care and attention than another side, one can be biased even though the facts are reported.
Take another example with China. Allen posted a video of Branden O’Neill’s debate with Elizabeth Economy. O’Neill’s point was simply dismissed by Economy and she simply dismissed his point about bias with the claim that she was simply reporting “the facts.” But the the facts can be presented in misleading ways so that response is rather deficient.
Take the fact that China is now the leading emitter of green house gases. Economy and the western media has jumped on this “fact” and used it to portray a certain image of China that may be misleading even though it may be a fact that China is now the leading emitter. That fact should be presented with the additional fact that the US is still on a per capita bases, four fold worse an emitter than China and that the developed nations far out produce China in emissions and that it is normal for a developing country like China to emit quite a bit of green house gasses and that countries normally reduce their emission significantly after they become more developed and wealthier. Doing that would put it in context and present a less biased perspective.
There are other relevant facts that should be presented to get a balanced and fair picture but if you only present facts according to a single angle, that distorts things and is misleading. Tone and slant should also be taken into account in looking at fairness and bias. So the foot-stomping and the “b…b…but it’s the facts” response simply is a simplistic mindset.
Morton says
Melektaus –
A favor. Could you please point me to an article or broadcast in the major Western media, regarding China, that you think is tonally correct, factually correct, etc. This will help me understand better your complaint here. Sincerely.
JJ says
@Morton
Yeah, I’m aware of those accolades. I did link to his Wikipedia page so I did read about them.
I’m not trying to be antagonistic but let’s be honest, if you ask the average Westerner who Ho Feng-Shan is they would have no clue. But I bet they would know who Schindler is. So yeah, I really think he has mostly been forgotten.
Morton says
That’s a fair point. But as a Westerner, I don’t think I’d be alone in admitting that the first I’d ever heard of Schindler was when the title of Spielberg’s movie was announced. However, I bet the situation in Israel is a bit different. And the situation in China, too: I’m guessing most people outside of Liyang have never heard of him. And the overall point being that, within different communities, there are different famous people.
richard says
There is not one word in this story that makes China look bad or makes the West look superior. It is a very old story for certain Jews to feel a great love for Israel, and looking forward to moving there. Just because they want to go to Israel, as millions of Jews from other countries have done, doesn’t mean China is bad. And since when is Israel “the West”?
This post is looney tunes. Can you clip the part that says the West is superior to China, or that even implies it? If you can construe this from the article, then you can find China bias anywhere and everywhere. There is no anti-China bias — not a single syllable — in this article. None. But you want there to be, because that’s what this blog feeds on.
YinYang says
@richard
Look at one of the passages melektaus quoted:
The dominant narrative in the Western media about religion is that of ‘repression’ in China. “newfound freedom of religion and stretching their political wings” are technically correct (I presume). Foreigners infatuated with freedom of religion in China is always about politics. China is absolutely doing the right thing to not let religion become a political force, especially religion that listens to foreign political entities.
In what ways was he restricted in practicing his religion? Does it make sense to say that a Chinese American having moved to China is with “newfound freedom of Chinese new year culture?” I don’t think that makes sense.
The more objective way to report it would be stating him among other Jews, he get to more drench in his heritage.
Now, you are going to say I am reading too much into this. So, this is one of the posts where we have to look at things in slightly wider context. I guess all I can say is have a little bit more patience and read other materials we have on this blog.
You said:
Just a personal observation. I think you are giving your own views too much credit and jump into conclusions people won’t accept. I think our debates would be much more fruitful if you leave some room where yourself could be wrong.
Adam Minter says
An interesting discussion, and a pretty good example I think of how wide the divide is on some of these types of stories.
Count me among those who find nothing in this story that could be taken as a negative. In fact, I tend to agree with Morton that stories like this actually enhance China’s image abroad.
I would, however, like to address YinYang’s comment regarding the dominant narrative in Western media about religion being “repression.” I agree with that wholeheartedly, and I think it’s caused many news organizations to miss the bigger story, ie that religion is growing rapidly in China. I think, in fact, that it’s pretty much inarguable that one of, if not THE fastest growing social movement in China today is Christianity (though I suspect someone is about to argue that point …). Now, that’s not to suggest that everything is peachy for China’s Christians and other religious – it’s not. But the situation is far more complicated, and robust, than what’s usually depicted in foreign media.
And one of the ways in which it is complicated is this: there are only five legally recognized religions in China, and Judaism isn’t one of them. Now, it is very much the case that the CCP’s religious authorities allow Jewish synagogues in certain cities. But there are restrictions, including – in Shanghai, at least – a restriction that Chinese nationals cannot attend them unless they are married to a foreign passport holder. Now, for a Chinese Jew, that creates a problem: since there are no Chinese synagogues with Chinese rabbis, it’s basically impossible to attend a synagogue.
So, when YinYang asks in regard to one of the Jews in the article: “In what ways was he restricted in practicing his religion,” I think the answer is pretty obvious, and I can understand why the person in question would want to move to Israel.
Larry Long says
Readers should be aware that the Kaifeng Jews were the agents, and often den managers, for the Jewish Sassoon family who had the exclusive distribution franchise for opium in China – given to them by the British government.
It was the Kaifeng Jews the Sassoons felt they could trust to deliver and disperse the opium, since they felt it was entirely “a Jewish business” and didn’t want outsiders involved.
China has not forgotten the devastation to their country from this. The UN’s estimate was that the imposition of opium set China’s development back by at least 75 years.
I’m quite sure that if the general population of China knew the history of these Kaifeng Jews, they would be run out of the country. And I couldn’t blame them.
To be honest, if I were these people, I would hide under a rock somewhere, and keep my mouth shut.
silentvoice says
To be fair Larry, the generation of Kaifeng Jews today are not the same individuals who sold opium then.
Larry Long says
” would say this though, if a certain individual or a group of people, like to identify themselves as something else (whether Jew or whatever), then by all means it’s their choice. I’d say to them good luck and get ready for discrimination in a foreign country.”
silentvoice, my point exactly.
For e.g., if I’m Japanese, I think I would tread carefully in much of China, especially in places like Shanghai and Nanjing. And yes, it would be my ancestors who were responsible for the atrocities, and not myself, but I can’t expect the local residents to be generous to the point of stupidity, either.
And if I’m a Kaifeng Jew, I don’t think I’d go out of my way to tell everyone how much I dislike China and how much better Israel is – where I’m “free”.
To be honest, I think I’d just shut the hell up. And I wish they would.
Larry Long says
And let’s not get carried away with jingoism here, about “freedom of religion’. Or government, or an economic system, or a way of making tofu.
Where is it written that a nation must, by some natural law of the universe, “open” its borders to all kinds of foreign influence? What if a nation doesn’t want those foreign systems? Who are Westerners to demand that a country adopt Western “standards” of everything?
Where did Americans, for e.g., get the right to insist that the entire world do everything “the American way”? That’s bigoted and racist, and imperialist, among other things.
In what way is it a good idea that Afghanistan, for e.g., now has a “speaker of the house”? That’s an improvement? For that, the US invaded and killed several hundred thousand Afghans?
There is no record of the colonial powers ever leaving anything but misery in their wake. And if China chooses to remain exclusively Buddhist or Confucian, who are you to tell them they’re wrong?
What you are saying is that “freedom” for the Chinese means the freedom to be like you. And that’s all it means. You don’t want them to be free to be like them, because that’s different from you.
And everybody knows that when God designed the universe, He meant it to be an American one.
The US thinks China should open its doors to all religions, especially – how did Hillary Clinton put it – the “unregistered ones”? So you have the Moonies, the Ku Klux Klan, the Branch Davidians, the John Jones Kool-Aid group, the Mormons, the Holy Rollers and, of course, China’s own Falun Gong.
Good for you. That, “democracy” and $2 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
raventhorn says
@Adam Minter
“there are only five legally recognized religions in China, and Judaism isn’t one of them.”
I think you need to cite your sources, and
I believe this is an erroneous statement from Wikipedia, which said “There are five recognized religions by the state, namely Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism”,
but its reference citation is from a Chinese embassy site, which stated something completely different, “China is a country with a great diversity of religious beliefs. The main religions are Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism and Protestantism.”
Now, this may be a typical case of progressive loss of information, through bias. The statement went from “the main religions are ….” to “5 recognized religions by the state are…” to “ONLY five legally recognized religions in China.”
But clearly it is not the case in China. China has many OFFICIALLY registered religious groups, not “ONLY 5 legally recognized religions”.
” But there are restrictions, including – in Shanghai, at least – a restriction that Chinese nationals cannot attend them unless they are married to a foreign passport holder.”
I think you need to cite that bit too, because I don’t know what you are talking about.
raventhorn says
I think this is yet another set of plainly factually wrong statements released by NED based US NGO’s.
For example, http://www.cfr.org/china/religion-china/p16272. Council on Foreign Relations page propagates the same statement, “But religious freedom is still not universal in China. The state only recognizes five official religions—Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism—and considers the practice of any other faith illegal.”
This statement is clearly wrong.
Chinese constitution guarantees “freedom of religion” (official registration is required). But clearly, there is nothing in Chinese laws that “considers the practice of any other faith illegal” outside of the 5 main religions. Those 5 main religions are nowhere stated as “the only officially recognized religions”.
raventhorn says
@Adam Minter
” Now, it is very much the case that the CCP’s religious authorities allow Jewish synagogues in certain cities. But there are restrictions, including – in Shanghai, at least – a restriction that Chinese nationals cannot attend them unless they are married to a foreign passport holder. Now, for a Chinese Jew, that creates a problem: since there are no Chinese synagogues with Chinese rabbis, it’s basically impossible to attend a synagogue.”
I think you are mixing up some facts and jumping to conclusions.
some churches/synagogues in China hold different and seperate services for foreign nationals and Chinese nationals.
Foreign missionaries may also hold separate services for foreign nationals in these churches/synagogues.
These “foreign” services are generally given separate legal consideration, because they are generally for the benefit of non-Chinese nationals.
I believe there are rules that Chinese nationals may NOT attend these “foreign” services, unless they are married to a foreign citizen, because membership in the “foreign” services is unpredictable, and membership in the “foreign” services are not subject to normal Chinese church registration requirements.
Chinese Constitution Article 36 provides, “Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.” Which is the basis for domestic services membership registration requirements, and why foreign services are separated.
*That said, however, it is not the same as to suggest that a Chinese Jew cannot have his own Rabbi establish his own synagogue and hold services there.
wwww1234 says
@Larry Long
“The UN’s estimate was that the imposition of opium set China’s development back by at least 75 years”.
Can you provide a reference?
thanks
Ray says
@raventhorn
The PRC does not accord those Jewish Chinese their own minority status. Jewish Chinese are grouped under Hui Chinese.
But you are right in that foreigners only religious service cannot be attend by Chinese citizens unless married to foreigners.
By law in China, all religion has to be registered with state authority to be legal. So as long as thoese synagogues are registered they are fine.
Charles Liu says
@raventhorn
I share similar understanding as raven. Being an officially recognized religion comes with political representation and non-profit sponsorship, where as religious organizations that are not officially recognized do not enjoy these benefits, similar to religious organization that do not apply for non-exempt status in US has to pay taxes.
An example would be Falun Gong. It was widely practiced, even exploited by the old Red Guards in an attempt to muster political clout. The government started taking cult warnings from academia seriously after some retiring generals organized a siege of Zhongnanhai.
Another example would be the house church Western media universally proclaim as “persecuted”. Quite the contrary our media does not report the nuances of these case where local laws were broken, while most go unnoticed. Some are even praised by “state-owned” media in China.
It’s when missionaries goes to China and demand that followers bring their children to house church for Sunday school (so Jesus can kiss the little children), they are in violation of China’s child protection law that forbids organized religious indoctrination of minors.
Just have the parents take Sunday School material home and do them in private. There ain’t enough police in China to break down doors to arrest every parent that pray with their kids to the kitchen god.
Adam Minter says
An interesting discussion. In regard to regulation, the State Administration of Religious Affairs actually regulates the five major religions through respective patriotic associations, ie the Catholic Patriotic Association, the Three Self Patriotic Movement (for Protestants), etc etc. There is, however, no such organization for Chinese Jews. And this isn’t surprising: there is just a very small handful of ethnic Chinese Jews. In any case, this legal structure flows down to the provincial, county and even city level (for larger cities, like Shanghai). And those local versions of the various patriotic associations are in charge of licensing temples and churches.
Point being, there’s no legal authority for the licensing of synagogues in China. They exist, to be sure, but in a very awkward legal gray area. That is, they lack the legal standing of, say, a licensed Protestant church. At the behest of local authorities in, say, Shanghai, such organizations only allow foreign passport holders and their spouses to attend those venues (as has been noted above). The practical effect of such a regulation is that it prevents Chinese nationals without passports who aren’t married to foreign passport holders from attending synagogues for the simple fact that China lacks a single ethnic Chinese synagogue. Why? Well, in large part because the population is small and not well connected to mainstream international Judaism. And that’s one reason, I think, that they want to go to Israel.
China’s religious situation is robust and complicated. There are lots of legal gray areas. And one of them is the very, very small population of Kaifeng Jews. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion. Quite interesting.
raventhorn says
@Adam Minter
Well, they may be in “legal gray areas”, but that doesn’t make it into “China has only 5 legally recognized religions”, nor that the other faiths are considered “illegal”.
As far as anyone knows, China has not outlawed Judaism as “illegal” by any standard.
In fact, a simple search will yield that there are publicly operating synagogues in Shanghai and Beijing, where they publicly announce services.
“The practical effect of such a regulation is that it prevents Chinese nationals without passports who aren’t married to foreign passport holders from attending synagogues for the simple fact that China lacks a single ethnic Chinese synagogue. Why? Well, in large part because the population is small and not well connected to mainstream international Judaism. And that’s one reason, I think, that they want to go to Israel.”
Practical effect doesn’t equal to “State recognition” or alternatively illegalization of “religions”.
They can go to Israel, but they can also train Chinese Rabbis to establish Synagogues in China. That’s a matter of choice, not of condition.
Perhaps, some think that Chinese people won’t make very good Jewish Converts or Rabbis? (Now, that would suggest an entirely different kind of mentality, but I would withhold the judgment on some people’s choices).
Similarly, I question why Vatican thinks that Chinese people can’t name their own Biships, but rather have to do what Vatican thinks is right choice.
Given the history of Religions and NGO’s in China, I think Registration is absolutely necessary.
(If a Church in China is largely funded by undisclosed foreign sources, and it refuses to register to submit its accounts for oversight, then it is an Unregistered Foreign Agency.)
Adam Minter says
Raventhorn says: “They can go to Israel, but they can also train Chinese Rabbis to establish Synagogues in China. That’s a matter of choice, not of condition.”
This is false. Religious seminaries are licensed and strictly regulated by Religious Affairs Bureau, via its various Patriotic Associations. Since there is not Jewish Patriotic Association, there can be no licensing of a Jewish seminary. That is to say, there is no legal basis upon which to open one, just as there is no legal basis for the establishment of a synagogue in Beijing or Shanghai. It’s tolerated, yes, but it is not legal. There is a big difference.
Raventhorn also says: “Perhaps, some think that Chinese people won’t make very good Jewish Converts or Rabbis?”
I’m not sure what spurred this comment, but allow me to note that intimating – without grounds – that foreign discrimination plays a role in the lack of Chinese rabbis in China is so out of bounds of civil discourse, so truly offensive, that I regret that I engaged in this discussion at all. Clearly, a civil discourse simply isn’t possible here.
melektaus says
@Morton
There’s a few but most are not fairly presented. There’s been a few posted in this blog that are the exception and if you just search a round you’d find them. Like I said, I think most are unfair in tone, factually, and in presentation.
melektaus says
@richard
I already did that. Please read carefully.
melektaus says
@Adam Minter
“I’m not sure what spurred this comment, but allow me to note that intimating – without grounds – that foreign discrimination plays a role in the lack of Chinese rabbis in China is so out of bounds of civil discourse, so truly offensive, that I regret that I engaged in this discussion at all. Clearly, a civil discourse simply isn’t possible here.”
Translation: “I cannot rebut any of the factual points you pointed out.”
Seems like you’re getting worked up over nothing.
raventhorn says
@Adam Minter
“Since there is not Jewish Patriotic Association, there can be no licensing of a Jewish seminary. That is to say, there is no legal basis upon which to open one, just as there is no legal basis for the establishment of a synagogue in Beijing or Shanghai. It’s tolerated, yes, but it is not legal. There is a big difference.”
I don’t know where you are getting your information, and you have provided no citation whatsoever for any of the assertions you have made.
I know there is “registration” process for churches/temples/etc., I have never heard that there is any additional requirement that one’s church must belong to a “patriotic association”.
The “registration” process itself requires that one must “obey” Chinese laws, and be separate from loyalty to foreign churches.
That would seem to suggest the necessity of “patriotic association” is rather redundant.
“It’s tolerated, yes, but it is not legal. There is a big difference.”
I don’t see the distinction. If a Synagogue has been given OFFICIAL permission and registration, it is legal, not merely “tolerated”. There are tons of examples of that.
“I’m not sure what spurred this comment, but allow me to note that intimating – without grounds – that foreign discrimination plays a role in the lack of Chinese rabbis in China is so out of bounds of civil discourse, so truly offensive, that I regret that I engaged in this discussion at all. Clearly, a civil discourse simply isn’t possible here.”
I think your outrage rather outweighed your rather sparse citations and your rather jumpy conclusions. Well, yes, “civil discourse isn’t possible” when all we have from you is heavy outrage at “without grounds”.
Perhaps, you have not noticed, but your conclusions are floating on hot air.
🙂
wwww1234 says
@Adam Minter
“I’m not sure what spurred this comment, but allow me to note that intimating – without grounds – that foreign discrimination plays a role in the lack of Chinese rabbis in China is so out of bounds of civil discourse, so truly offensive, that I regret that I engaged in this discussion at all. Clearly, a civil discourse simply isn’t possible here.”
Discrimination based on ethnicity/nationality is by no means uncommon. Look at the composition of the catholic College of Cardinals.
Also See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PADRES
The resolutions demanded included:
the appointment of Mexican-American bishops
the appointment of Spanish-speaking priests as pastors in Spanish-speaking communities
Father Larry says
I have come across this conversation via a google alert for religion and China. What a disappointment! And what ignorance by those who claim to know something about China! After all, only somebody completely ignorant of Chinese religious policies would write: “I have never heard that there is any additional requirement that one’s church must belong to a “patriotic association”.”
Mr. Raventhorn, the Patriotic Associations are the very basis for China’s regulation of religions. Since you are very concerned with citations, allow me to help you. In 1982 the Central Committee of the CCP released what is still known as ‘Document 19,’ a history and directive on the management of religion in China for the cadres, the first and still the most important since the Cultural Revolution. It is still the Party’s definitive statement on how to handle religion in a post-Cultural Revolution environment, and is must-read material for anyone who wants to understand contemporary Chinese religious regulation, much less argue about it. Of course, it has been amended a few times over the years, but the structure and philosophy of Document 19 remains the basis for all religious regulations in China. You will take a particular interest I’m sure in Section VII, The Patriotic Religious Organizations, and Section VIII, Educating a New Generation of Clergy.
Your ignorance of the Patriotic Associations makes me doubt your ability to read Chinese, so allow me to direct you and your readers to an English translation, here:
http://www.purdue.edu/crcs/itemResources/PRCDoc/pdf/Document_no._19_1982.pdf
[Rest of post deleted by Allen for making childish personal innuendos and attacks…]
JJ says
While I appreciate the information you have added old man, I always wonder why Christians (I suppose that’s what you are) must frame everything as a “us vs. them doing battle” mentality.
The people here are simply having a discussion, there’s no fighting involved.
Allen says
@Father Larry #42,
You have your first and only warning. There are no seconds. If you don’t show respect to this forum, I will show you none either. And my rules are not negotiable.
DEEPTHROAT says
Ignorance is King here I’m afraid Father
Charles Liu says
@Father Larry
Father Larry, I have personally visited a church that was started by an American couple teaching at SIAS in Xingzheng, Paul and Bernice Noll:
http://churchinchina.blogspot.com/2004/11/sunday-service-in-china.html
AFAIK this church does not belong to any patriotic organization. The one I attended was the old one; they’ve since built another one next the school.
Charles Liu says
@Adam Minter
Adam, by your own definition “grary area” implies it’s neither legal nor illegal. BTW if you are ever in Shenzhen, looks like there’s a synagogue there:
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/137680811.html
Check it out they hold Chinese service (for Chinese Jews I presume.)
Also, as mentioned earlier, house church are not illegal. Here, Baidu freely returns house church service schedules, and they are everywhere.
raventhorn says
I read through the link that “Father Larry” posted. I don’t see anything in there that contradicted what I wrote. So I don’t even know what his point is.
Patriotic religious “associations” are not a legally binding requirement for registration of any church.
If someone have some FACTS that contradict that point, I like to see the FACTS (not some more assertions on hot air).
raventhorn says
I find it odd and funny that someone would bother to quote a “Document 19” (translated) from 1982 as the basis of argument for how thing are currently in China.
(1) It’s a memo in the government, not an official stance on Chinese law.
(2) It’s not current, as there have been many rounds of Chinese legal reforms since 1982. (Last one regarding Religion in China was in 2005).
I guess I can quote Ronald Reagan and discuss the current deficit as Republicans do in US.
But neither would be helpful or REALISTIC.
perspectivehere says
Raventhorne: “Perhaps, some think that Chinese people won’t make very good Jewish Converts or Rabbis? (Now, that would suggest an entirely different kind of mentality, but I would withhold the judgment on some people’s choices).
Adam Minter: “I’m not sure what spurred this comment, but allow me to note that intimating – without grounds – that foreign discrimination plays a role in the lack of Chinese rabbis in China is so out of bounds of civil discourse, so truly offensive, that I regret that I engaged in this discussion at all. Clearly, a civil discourse simply isn’t possible here.”
********************************************
Adam, I think you are over-reacting here. Why is it “out of bounds of civil, so truly offensive” to accuse a foreign religious group of discriminating against Chinese, when modern history is replete with examples too plentiful to mention? Remember if you’ve been discriminated against, it is reasonable to be distrustful of people’s intentions. Chinese have been discriminated against by foreigners, both in law and in practice. It would be foolish for a Chinese to think that discrimination does not exist; it would be prudent to seek assurance that it does not. So please get off your high horse.
And the reality is, conversions of non-Jews and acceptance of historic and converted Jews are a controversial ethnic, religious and political topic in Judaism and within Israel. See for example:
In Israel, distress signals from Ethiopians
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0522/p16s01-wome.html
“Ethiopians have lots of motivation to become Israelis, but they are not accepted,” he says. “In jobs, in education, people feel they are discriminated against because they are black. I’m not saying it is right or wrong, but it is what we are feeling, and that is enough.””
A low point in the relationship between Ethiopian Jews and Israelis came in 1996, when it was revealed that Israeli hospitals had thrown out all blood donated by Ethiopians. “These were donations to help other Israelis,” Mr. Elias says. “[Ethiopians] said to each other: ‘What do they think? That we are not humans?’ ”
Habad, one of Israel’s stronger orthodox religious groups, doesn’t recognize Ethiopians as Jews or allow their children into its kindergartens.”
Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis Are Reversing Conversions By the Fistful
By David Kelsey / May 14, 2008
http://www.jewcy.com/religion-and-beliefs/ultra_orthodox_rabbis_are_reversing_conversions_fistful
“IN ISRAEL, THE ONLY government recognized conversions are Orthodox. Last year, Israeli Rabbi Avraham Atia—a government-empowered haredi rabbinic judge based in Ashdod—retroactively annulled a woman’s conversion to Judaism that had been performed by Conversion Authority head Rabbi Haim Druckman fifteen years before. The nine-page legal decision by Atia could be understood to invalidate thousands of conversions performed by Druckman, a Religious Zionist rabbi, and the rabbis with whom he’s worked over the years. This reading of Rabbi Atia’s ruling was adopted by the Chief Rabbinate’s High Rabbinic Court, which heard the Atia case on appeal. In a fifty-five page ruling released in early May of this year, the lead rabbinic judge—another haredi rabbi, Avraham Sherman—ruled every conversion performed by Rabbi Druckman from 1999 onward invalid. Thousands of converts and their children are now deemed “goyyim,” their marriages void, their relationships with their spouses now “illicit.” While Israel’s Modern Orthodox and National Religious rabbis invested their energy, time, and money into settling the West Bank and creating an ever-greater Israel, haredim used their resources to become the dominant Orthodox political force in the country—even as they remain ambivalent about the validity of a Jewish state. They took control of the country’s Chief Rabbinate and its entire bureaucracy, whose authority they now wield as a weapon to attack and delegitimize more moderate Orthodox rabbis in Israel and abroad.”
The article also describes some of what it takes to be a properly observant Orthodox Jew or risk having one’s conversion invalidated, as happened to another woman:
“Sarah’s conversion was ruled invalid because she did what many Modern Orthodox women do every day: get dressed and go out of the house. Sarah’s conversion was reversed because Tropper heard that she had worn pants, and occasionally—only when shopping outside the Jewish neighborhood—she had left her hair uncovered.”
And this:
http://www.thejc.com/judaism/judaism-features/26766/why-orthodox-rabbis-must-stop-conversions
“Conversion is the single biggest issue ripping at the fabric of Jewish society. If we persist in our current trend, we will self-destruct. Even if the whole Jewish world will not accept a change in approach, at the very least I call on my Orthodox colleagues, in the absence of all conversion authorities pulling together, to consider it.”
********************************
If the above cited articles are representative of contemporary Jewish reality, why is it unreasonable for Raventhorne to suggest that there may be reluctance in some quarters of the Jewish world to welcome Chinese Jews and Chinese converts?
Charles Liu says
@raventhorn
Raven, the claims made by Larry piqued enough interest I decided to do a little research on the officially recognized religions and various church registration. Turns out there really isn’t a strict control as claimed by Larry.
Here’s a 1991 announcement from the Bureau of Religious Affairs, announcement #110. It states religious organization outside the recognized religions may choose to register as a civil society, and would be subject to Civil Society Registration Regulations instead:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/891091.htm
宗教社会团体登记管理实施办法 – Rules On Implementing Religious Organization Registration Management
…
本办法未规定者，均按《社会团体登记管理条例》规定办理 – Entities not covered are handled according to “Civil Society Registration Regulation”
So this answers Adam’s question, that Chinese Jews, as a separate religion, does not need to register under any of the recognized religions, rather can register as a civil society. They can also choose to exist in the gray area of unregistered religious organization that is neither legal nor illegal.
perspectivehere says
Adam / Raventhorne,
Similarly, as Adam ought to know very well, many foreign Christian missionary organizations in the 19th and 20th century, prior to the 1949 Revolution, were suspicious of putting Chinese in leadership positions, and sought to keep foreigners firmly in control while presenting a token Chinese face.
Here is an article from Christianity Today (which would be expected to present the most positive interpretation) and even it is critical of the foreign missionaries:
*********************************
“From Foreign Mission to Chinese Church”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/2008/issue98/2.6.html?start=3
“[Post-Boxer Rebellion China] gave Christian missions in China the largest opportunity they had ever had—truly a “Golden Age.” Mission schools suddenly had high prestige and waiting lists. Members of the elite class became Christians. Rates of growth skyrocketed, especially for Protestants. After the revolution which overthrew the feeble Manchu dynasty in 1911-1912, the provisional president of the young Republic was Sun Yat-sen, a baptized Christian. In 1913, the Republic’s second president asked the foreign missionary community in China to pray for the nation. Protestant missionary numbers soared from more than 1,300 in 1905 to 8,000 in 1925. Many Christians were confident that events were moving inexorably towards the “Christianization” of China.
It was not to be. The Golden Age lasted less than two decades, until the mid-1920s. What went wrong? During that time, practically all missions in China failed to sufficiently cultivate a Chinese leadership in their mission structures and to permit that leadership to shepherd the flock into independent and self-supporting local churches. The rhetoric of moving from (foreign) mission to (Chinese) church was always present, but it was mainly hollow. At times it appeared that the foreign mission establishment had given way to Chinese leadership. The national missionary conference of 1907 had only half a dozen Chinese delegates out of more than a thousand; the next major conference in 1924 was called the “Christian” (not “missionary”) conference, and more than half the delegates were Chinese.
But looks were misleading. It was at best a partnership, and an imbalanced one at that. In almost all cases, missionaries still controlled the purse-strings. The result was that the best Chinese leaders nurtured by the Protestants—such as Cheng Jingyi, respected head of the Church of Christ in China, and Yu Richang (David Z. T. Yui), gifted national secretary of the YMCA—never shed the image of being subordinate to foreign missionaries.
The Protestants put Chinese in leadership roles where they at least had the appearance of responsibility and power, even if that power was limited by close association with foreign missions. The Roman Catholic Church in China suffered even more from tokenism. The Catholic hierarchies in China had for decades permitted (and closely supervised) the training of Chinese priests, who were given mundane tasks and little responsibility. But no Chinese bishops were consecrated until 1926, after a couple of maverick European missionary priests, in particular Fr. Vincent Lebbe, convinced the pope to break the stranglehold that the European hierarchy had over the Chinese clergy. Even so, Chinese priests still continued to be largely relegated to secondary roles in the local parishes, and the new Chinese bishops were shunted into subsidiary functions.”
**************************************************
Today, you will find many Protestant and Catholic church leaders who regret the prejudice and discriminatory attitudes shown towards Chinese church leaders in the pre-revolutionary days. And you will find Protestant and Evangelical pastors who make the claim that the Communist Revolution was a good thing because it made the Christian Church truly Chinese.
And that was one of the rallying points of Mao’s revolution, wasn’t it? Nationalism – no more foreigners in control of China and Chinese institutions.
The growth of Christianity in China today owes something to the fact that foreigners are no longer in control.
I think, given the experience of modern Chinese history (i.e., the last 150 years), Raventhorn’s question is perfectly reasonable to ask and consider, and your response is an over-reaction that betrays a surprising lack of historical perspective. I say this as a respectful admirer of your Shanghaiscrap blog (assuming you are indeed the same Adam Minter and not a troll!).
Larry Long says
I’ve been noticing all the posts about practicing Judaism in China, and I think you’ve all been had. Why would you choose to go on the defensive on such a nonsense point? Especially when your ‘adversaries’ are suffering from acute hypocrisy and more than a bit of selective amnesia.
For one thing, Israel is a racist state, with only the “religious” glue of Judaism holding it together. In other words, if you aren’t a “Jew” – defined as having converted to Judaism, you aren’t welcome there. And having converted is the only credential necessary for an Israeli passport.
One of the serious impediments to any kind of peace is that the Israeli government insists that Israel be accepted as “A Jewish State”. In case you haven’t noticed, they don’t exactly welcome the construction in Jerusalem of new Christian or Muslim churches.
Not only that, they do a pretty good job of bombing the shit out of all the mosques in Gaza too.
So, in Israel there is no “religious freedom” of any kind, but that’s okay because they’re God’s Chosen People, but China has some restrictions, mostly on fringe and fanatic sects, and that’s bad. Because . . . why, exactly?
But the Jews are clever negotiators, and they troll the internet constantly, looking for places to deflect criticism of Jews or Israel, and apparently places to attack China.
Like “Father Larry” – cute Catholic name for a Jewish sympathiser – who tells us, “I have come across this conversation via a google alert for religion and China”.
Really? Now ask yourself, exactly WHO would be trolling the internet and receiving “Google alerts” for China and religion? It’s not likely the Falun Gong, since they already know where they stand. And not likely the Moonies or Scientologists. Maybe the Ku Klux Klan?
And then we have:
“Along with a newfound freedom of religion, the 14 Kaifeng Jews are looking forward to stretching their political wings.”
Wow. Well, the best way to “stretch your political wings” in Israel is to pick up a gun and kill a few Palestinians – preferably civilians, and preferably children. Or maybe bomb another school – after all, the Jews only destroyed 280 schools in Gaza during the last operation. There must still be a few left, somewhere.
The next-best way would be to use your “For everyone else there it was just another election, but for us, it was the beginning of a new life.” opportunity at voting, to make sure the Palestinians never get a state of their own. I mean, after all, that’s the true meaning of democracy and political freedom – use it to oppress and destroy.
For anyone to speak of god and religion and religious freedom while at the same time conducting an appalling genocide against an innocent people, is sacriligeous, disgusting, and reprehensible.
Lastly, Judaism should be banned in all countries, simply on the basis of its little-known but active promotion of pedophilia.
FYI, The Jewish Talmud is the holiest of all holy Jewish books. It supercedes and trumps the bible itself, notwithstanding that the Jewish bible is supposed to be the “Word of God”.
But the Talmud contains many dozens of approving discussions of sex with children. Here are a few direct quotes:
“When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when a girl is less than three years and a day it is as if one put the finger in the eye.”
(The footnote to this passage says: “as Jews will come to the eye again and again, so is the little girl’s virginity restored to her again and again.”)
Another section confirms that sexual activity with small boys is in the same category: “Intercourse with a small boy is not regarded as a sexual act”. And so on.
And then we have this gem: Feminist writer Judith Levine’s book “Not Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Kids from Sex” has been condemned. . . Ms. Levine says she was “misunderstood” after a news article quoted her saying a boy’s sexual experience with a priest (Rabbi?) “conceivably” could be positive.
China has nothing to apologise for, and certainly not to the Jews. After all, it wasn’t the Chinese selling opium in Israel. Nor was it the Chinese taking over Tel Aviv as their business center while booting out all the Chinese.
Nor was it the Chinese who erected signs all over Tel Aviv saying, “No dogs or Jews allowed”.
Forget China. The Jews and Israel have enough “religious” problems of their own, that are far more serious than anything China will encounter.
perspectivehere says
Melektaus’ post is entirely spot-on.
The LA Times article is a “feel good” kind of article, but unfortunately, (either intentionally or unintentionally) makes a number of gratuitous swipes against China.
The objectionable parts are:
“Chinese Jews Feel More At Home In Israel”
{this headline comparison is gratuitous put-down of China. Why could they not have said the less objectionable “Chinese Immigrants find new home in Israel?” And it is patently untrue – out of 3,000 Kaifeng Jews, only 14 have immigrated. The phrasing suggests this is a widespread feeling. How do the facts support this headline? And Jews living in China number in the thousands – how about them?}.
“Ultimately, the government sees organized religion as a challenge to its power and state-sponsored atheism.”
{This is commentary and opinion unsupported by any expert in the article. Government policy towards religion is probably one of the least relevant reasons to why the Kaifeng Jews need to go to Israel to get a proper Jewish education.}
“Along with a newfound freedom of religion, the 14 Kaifeng Jews are looking forward to stretching their political wings.” {This again is a swipe. What the Kaifeng Jews suffered from was not so much “freedom of religion” but rather the lack of a sufficiently developed Jewish community in which to practice it. The community had died out due to change in trade patterns over the centuries, not because of lack of freedom of religion.}
***************************************
The comments in the Huffingtonpost are reflective of the article’s negativity towards China.
“The average Chinese feels more at “home” anywhere other than China!”
“It’s not only Chinese Jews, I bet most Chinese would feel at home in a free country.”
“Supposing these people’s ancestors were converts and lived in the far east, how are they going “home”? Not that I cannot feel glad for them…I am sure many Chinese nationals would love to leave communist China.”
“China is a racist state and ethnocracy ! Make China a state for all its people! End Chinese apartheid NOW!”
***************************************
If I were a Chinese reading this article, I would ask myself, why is it that every development involving a Chinese person in the media has to be spun in such a way so that I feel like it’s a put-down of my culture or my country? Why does this article contain a subtle and not so subtle dig against me and my country?
I have to ask, why does Shavei Israel promote this negative view towards China? Is it the group’s agenda? Or is it the LA Times, creating controversy? For example, Shavei Israel’s video posted here is very positive, focuses on the individuals, and does not mention politics at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edhtdoPukk0
Similarly, this article by Shavei Israel’s founder also steers clear of politics:
From Kaifeng to the Kotel
A Chinese rabbi in the making
by Michael Freund
http://asianjewishlife.org/pages/articles/AJL_Issue_7/AJL_Feature_Kaifeng.html
I’ve read other interesting articles about the Kaifeng Jews in many places before, and most of the time, the articles are quite fair, uplifting and interesting. Like this one:
A HISTORIAN IN SEARCH OF THE JEWS OF CHINA
http://www.jewishtimesasia.org/one-to-one-topmenu-45/chan-sui-jeung
So I suspect it is the LA Times politicizing this and creating emnity and ill-feeling towards Shavei Israel, which is being used to make a political point about China.
This reminds me that the history of Jews in China have always been more positive than negative. I remember in college meeting descendants of German Jews whose parents had been raised in Shanghai during the pre-war time, and expressing thankfulness that China sheltered them when so many of the western countries turned their backs on Jewish refugees fleeing nazism:
GERMAN AND AUSTRIAN JEWISH REFUGEES IN SHANGHAI
See http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007091
The Jews in Shanghai and Hong Kong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiKQNblzpfs
It’s a shame when poorly written /edited/ headlined articles like the LA Times article leaves a bad taste in Chinese readers through these gratuitous swipes at China.
wwww1234 says
@Charles Liu
“It states religious organization outside the recognized religions may choose to register as a civil society, and would be subject to Civil Society Registration Regulations instead:”
I think the “recognized” religions are eligible for state funding(buildiing/salary etc) and land allocation, others are not. Tibetan monks, even the small kid-monks, have monthly allowance.
Sweet & Sour Socialism says
@Adam Minter
Myself and others here are waiting for you to back up your claim about Chinese Jews being excluded from Shanghai synagogues under “almost impossible” circumstances. Please tell us, do Shanghai synagogues have marriage-certificate-checking policemen stationed outside? How many Chinese Jews have been turned away or otherwise suppressed through this policy? The article itself certainly doesn’t quantify your claim at all. Should Jews start lining up next to Falun Gong protesters outside Chinese embassies worldwide to protest the Chinese government’s hindrance of Chinese Jewish worship?
Compare your claims in this thread with your own article “Being Jewish in China: Scenes From a Shanghai Bat Mitzvah” for The Atlantic, dated September 8, 2010. In that article you wrote: “…Sophie Rosen, a 12-year-old American expatriate, strode to the front of the Ohel Moshe Synagogue in Shanghai, and became the first bat mitzvah in the…building’s 83-year history. She wore a…smile that she shared, first, with Shanghai’s rabbi, an orthodox member of Chabad, then her mother and father, reform and conservative Jews, respectively, and then the assembled congregation, mostly non-Jewish, with a large Chinese contingent…”
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/09/being-jewish-in-china-scenes-from-a-shanghai-bat-mitzvah/62574/
You make it sound so free and open. How is this presence of “a large Chinese contingent” in a Shanghai synagogue — reported by yourself — reconcilable with your claim that it’s “almost impossible” for Chinese Jews to attend synagogues “in Shanghai at least”? Chinese non-Jews are allowed to come and go at will at a bat Mitzvah, but Chinese Jews will be stopped? How would the authorities distinguish them?
Also, I corresponded with Kehillat Beijing, they told me there has been no problem with Chinese attending services there. In fact, no Jewish synagogue websites on the PRC mainland indicate prohibitions of any kind regarding attendance of services by Chinese nationals.
I understand you have supported HH positions regarding skewed Western Chinese media coverage of in the past. But in this context of claims you have made which you have yet to support, the assertion that “there’s no problem with this article” [‘Chinese Jews Feel More At Home In Israel’], appear disingenuous and hypocritical coming from a Jewish US journalist. Come on…this article is written for a US, overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian audience, which you fit squarely within; it also happens that you are a professional media worker. What you seem to have brought to this discussion is a factually-challenged distraction…
There’s two major obvious propaganda planks of the article, that for Kaifeng Jews (a few immigrants to Israel, anyway) Israel provides 1) religious and 2) political tolerance. Firstly, comparative lack of religious and political tolerance are points that (coincidentally) the US and West generally — and two-facedly — repeat ad nauseum regarding China. Neither the US and especially not Israel with their respective Judeo-Christian prejudices provide environments of universal religious tolerance, so criticism of China on this point is sheer hypocrisy. Secondly, the vaunted superiority of suffraged “representative democracy” in Israel and in other parts of the West is extremely dubious coming from a US media organ, as recent polls by agencies just as the Pew Research Center show the Chinese government is far more popular with its people than any of the “Western-style democracies”, and disapproval ratings in the latter is actually reaching record high levels.
If you are the knowledgeable person about religion in China who truly sees the overdoing of the “repression” theme in coverage of religion in China’s society, how could you not find a problem in crudely false propaganda phrases from the article such as: “…the government sees organized religion as a challenge to its power and state-sponsored atheism.” As pointed out by others in this discussion, foreign countries have used religion as a Trojan Horse and/or a club for compromising China’s sovereignty since long before the CPC came to power; this is a historic fact which cannot be controverted. It’s common sense for any independent mainland Chinese government to monitor religious manifestations for the good of the nation no matter which party is in power. As for the weasel phrase “state-sponsored atheism”, the Marxist-Leninist atheist position is a requirement only for Party Members, a relatively small minority of the total Chinese population. It certainly does not dictate atheism for the general Chinese population as implied.
I think Melektaus’ gift to us was to expose the Judeo-Christian / Western-democratic model “superiority complex” propaganda in this article, particularly as it embodies the patently unjust colonial ideology of Zionism (although he did not identify it with that term) which underlies the typical US-Israeli media discourse. This kind of propaganda may either not be perceived as such, not attested to as such, by those who have assimilated or promote it. He also revealed what precisely is NOT disclosed by such articles, in this case the hidden incentive of subsidizing emigration to Israel, which throws the actions of the Kaifeng Jews in Israel into a whole different light — and which you completely ignored. And where are the viewpoints on this issue of an average Chinese citizen, or a Palestinian / Arab Muslim in Israel, for example?
The shared US-Israeli historical myth of a “Promised Land” — in modern-day “liberal democratic” guise — providing succor and freedom to the religiously / politically “oppressed” falls apart when the bigotry, ongoing colonial occupations and genocide which lie at the foundation of these myths are examined. Of course one of the corporate mainstream media’s key roles is to propagate these myths…
It also must be pointed out regarding this article that the actual proof of the ethnicity of the Kaifeng Jews is, as the article itself states, “spotty”. Perhaps the Chinese government’s not granting the Kaifeng Jews their own particular minority / religious status points to a question of empirical ancestral evidence or lack thereof, and skepticism of the Kaifeng Jews’ minority phenomenon is in order. Why doesn’t the article show a photo of the émigré Kaifeng Jews in Israel, just a stock photo is used.
In conclusion, Adam Minter, I understand that you are capable of reasonable reporting on Chinese matters minus the Western bias; I look forward to your keeping to that in future.
(Apologies if there is repetition from previous comments, particularly those of Larry Long and perspectivehere. I spent some time writing this, during which some points here were pre-empted, and it didn’t seem possible to discard them…)
JJ says
@Sweet & Sour Socialism
Wow, excellent post!
Larry Long says
I’ve been noticing all the posts about practicing Judaism in China, and I think you’ve all been had. Why would you choose to go on the defensive on such a nonsense point? Especially when your ‘adversaries’ are suffering from acute hypocrisy and more than a bit of selective amnesia.
For one thing, Israel is a racist state, with only the “religious” glue of Judaism holding it together. In other words, if you aren’t a “Jew” – defined as having converted to Judaism, you aren’t welcome there. And having converted is the only credential necessary for an Israeli passport.
One of the serious impediments to any kind of peace is that the Israeli government insists that Israel be accepted as “A Jewish State”. In case you haven’t noticed, they don’t exactly welcome the construction in Jerusalem of new Christian or Muslim churches.
Not only that, they do a pretty good job of bombing the shit out of all the mosques in Gaza too.
So, in Israel there is no “religious freedom” of any kind, but that’s okay because they’re God’s Chosen People, but China has some restrictions, mostly on fringe and fanatic sects, and that’s bad. Because . . . why, exactly?
But the Jews are clever negotiators, and they troll the internet constantly, looking for places to deflect criticism of Jews or Israel, and apparently places to attack China.
Like “Father Larry” – cute Catholic name for a Jewish sympathiser – who tells us, “I have come across this conversation via a google alert for religion and China”.
Really? Now ask yourself, exactly WHO would be trolling the internet and receiving “Google alerts” for China and religion? It’s not likely the Falun Gong, since they already know where they stand. And not likely the Moonies or Scientologists. Maybe the Ku Klux Klan?
And then we have:
“Along with a newfound freedom of religion, the 14 Kaifeng Jews are looking forward to stretching their political wings.”
Wow. Well, the best way to “stretch your political wings” in Israel is to pick up a gun and kill a few Palestinians – preferably civilians, and preferably children. Or maybe bomb another school – after all, the Jews only destroyed 280 schools in Gaza during the last operation. There must still be a few left, somewhere.
The next-best way would be to use your “For everyone else there it was just another election, but for us, it was the beginning of a new life.” opportunity at voting, to make sure the Palestinians never get a state of their own. I mean, after all, that’s the true meaning of democracy and political freedom – use it to oppress and destroy.
For anyone to speak of god and religion and religious freedom while at the same time being a religious racist and conducting an appalling genocide against an innocent people, is sacriligeous, disgusting, and reprehensible.
Lastly, Judaism should be banned in all countries, simply on the basis of its little-known but active promotion of pedophilia.
FYI, The Jewish Talmud is the holiest of all holy Jewish books. It supercedes and trumps the bible itself, notwithstanding that the Jewish bible is supposed to be the “Word of God”.
But the Talmud contains many dozens of approving discussions of sex with children. Here are a few direct quotes:
“When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when a girl is less than three years and a day it is as if one put the finger in the eye.”
(The footnote to this passage says: “as Jews will come to the eye again and again, so is the little girl’s virginity restored to her again and again.”)
Another section confirms that sexual activity with small boys is in the same category: “Intercourse with a small boy is not regarded as a sexual act”. And so on.
And then we have this gem: Feminist writer Judith Levine’s book “Not Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Kids from Sex” has been condemned. . . Ms. Levine says she was “misunderstood” after a news article quoted her saying a boy’s sexual experience with a priest (Rabbi?) “conceivably” could be positive.
China has nothing to apologise for, and certainly not to the Jews. After all, it wasn’t the Chinese selling opium in Israel. Nor was it the Chinese taking over Tel Aviv as their business center while booting out all the Chinese.
Nor was it the Chinese who erected signs all over Tel Aviv saying, “No dogs or Jews allowed”.
Forget China. The Jews and Israel have enough “religious” problems of their own, that are far more serious than anything China will encounter.
Father Larry says
Allen – Since you took the liberty of erasing my first comment for personal attacks, I wonder if you’ll take the liberty of erasing all of the racist, anti-semitic stuff that’s followed it. You could start with Mr. Long’s, which is straight out of annals of the John Birch society and other creep racist organizations. Shame on this forum. You’re not correcting bias here, or enhancing China’s image – you’re harming it.
And Mr Raventhorn, for you especially – I suggest you take a deeper look into Document 19. It’s a historically important document with considerable literature built upon it. By calling it a government ‘memo’ you not only show how little you know of Chinese relgious regulation, but how little you understand about the Party’s methods of working.
For the record – yes, you’re right, I was sent here by the Global Jewish Media Conspiracy, which is busy monitoring – on a minute-by-minute basis – anything that might hurt their image.
Good riddance.
raventhorn says
“And Mr Raventhorn, for you especially – I suggest you take a deeper look into Document 19. It’s a historically important document with considerable literature built upon it. By calling it a government ‘memo’ you not only show how little you know of Chinese relgious regulation, but how little you understand about the Party’s methods of working.”
I don’t know what you mean by “deeper look”, nor what “considerable literature built upon it” you are referring to.
I see synagogues/temples/churches operating publicly in China. I’ll leave the “deeper” conspiracies to others to validate in their own time.
I’m not swayed by vague innuendos.
For the record – yes, I know very little of your conspiracy theory logic. 🙂
perspectivehere says
@Father Larry comments
I don’t think “Father Larry” is a real Catholic priest, but a troll. No Catholic priest I have ever known would employ the kind of personal attacks or use the kind of disrespectful tone as he has adopted. By adopting the “Father Larry” handle he brings disrepute on to Catholic priests and Catholics in general among those who should know better. It would be best to ignore him.
I should also reflect on where this dialogue has wound up after 58 comments. As I noted above, prior to Melektaus post about the LA Times article, I had only read positive things about the Kaifeng Jews. I have never read anything about their being discriminated against, or having any trouble other than finding a way to preserve their dying cultural traditions, or any problems with the Chinese government.
However, the LA Times article was written in a way to create division and engender distrust. The attempt at dialogue here (with overblown and emotional over-the-top rhetoric, and prejudices and misunderstandings galore) seems to be the result. One can see within this small forum how easily division is created.
The “dialogue” here reminds me of this insightful 2005 article from Conn Hallinan of Foreign Policy in Focus.
Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules
http://www.fpif.org/articles/divide_and_conquer_as_imperial_rules
**********QUOTE********************
“Following the absorption of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, the British set about shoring up their rule by the tried and true strategy of pitting ethnic group against ethnic group, tribe against tribe, and religion against religion. When British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour issued his famous 1917 Declaration guaranteeing a “homeland” for the Jewish people in Palestine, he was less concerned with righting a two thousand year old wrong than creating divisions that would serve growing British interests in the Middle East.
Sir Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a “Jewish homeland” in Palestine meant for the British Empire: “It will form for England,” he said, “a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.”
Storrs’ analogy was no accident. Ireland was where the English invented the tactic of divide and conquer, and where the devastating effectiveness of using foreign settlers to drive a wedge between the colonial rulers and the colonized made it a template for worldwide imperial rule.
Divide and Conquer Revisited
Ariel Sharon and former Prime Minister Menachem Begin normally take credit for creating the “facts on the ground” policies that have poured more than 420,000 settlers into the Occupied Territories. But they were simply copying Charles I, the English King, who in 1609 forcibly removed the O’Neill and O’Donnell clans from the north of Ireland, moved in 20,000 English and Scottish Protestants, and founded the Plantation of Ulster.
The “removal” was never really meant to cleanse Ulster of the Irish. Native labor was essential to the Plantation’s success and within 15 years more than 4,000 native Irish tenants and their families were back in Ulster. But they lived in a land divided into religious castes, with the Protestant invaders on top and the Catholic natives on the bottom.
Protestants were awarded the “Ulster privilege” which gave them special access to land and lower rents, and also served to divide them from the native Catholics. The “Ulster Privilege” is not dissimilar to the kind of “privilege” Israeli settlers enjoy in the Territories today, where their mortgages are cheap, their taxes lower and their education subsidized.
The Protestant privileges were a constant sore point with the native Irish; although in fact, most Protestants were little better off than their Catholic neighbors. Rents were uniformly onerous, regardless of religion.
Indeed, there were numerous cases where Protestants and Catholics united to protest exorbitant rents, but in virtually every case, the authorities successfully used religion and privilege to split such alliances. The Orange Order, the organization most responsible for sectarian politics in the North today, was originally formed in 1795 to break a Catholic-Protestant rent strike.
Ireland as Imperial Laboratory
The parallels between Israel and Ireland are almost eerie, unless one remembers that the latter was the laboratory for British colonialism. As in Ulster, Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories have special privileges that divide them from Palestinians (and other Israelis as well). As in Ireland, Israeli settlers rely on the military to protect them from the “natives.” And as in Northern Ireland, there are political organizations, like the National Religious Party and the Moledet Party, which whip up sectarian hatred, and keep the population divided. The latter two parties both advocate the forcible transfer of all Arabs—Palestinians and Israelis alike—to Jordan and Egypt.
Prior to the Ulster experiment, the English had tried any number of schemes to tame the restive Irish and build a wall between conqueror and conquered. One set of laws, the 1367 Statutes of Kilkenny, forbade “gossiping” with the natives. All of them failed. Then the English hit on the idea of using ethnicity, religion, and privilege to construct a society with built-in divisions.
It worked like a charm.
The divisions were finally codified in the Penal Laws of 1692, divisions that still play themselves out in the mean streets of Belfast and Londonderry. Besides denying Catholics any civil rights (and removing those rights from Protestants who intermarried with them), the Laws blocked Catholics from signing contracts, becoming lawyers, or hiring more than two apprentices. In essence, they insured that Catholics would remain poor, powerless, and locked out of the modern world.
The laws were, in the words of the great English jurist Edmund Burke, “A machine of wide and elaborate contrivance and as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a people as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man.”
Once the English hit on the tactic of using ethnic and religious differences to divide a population, the conquest of Ireland became a reality. Within 250 years, that formula would be transported to India, Africa, and the Middle East.
Sometimes populations were splintered by religions, as with Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims in India. Sometimes societies were divided by tribes, as with the Ibos and Hausa in Nigeria. Sometimes, as in Ireland, foreign ethnic groups were imported and used as a buffer between the colonial authorities and the colonized. That is how large numbers of East Indians ended up in Kenya, South Africa, British Guyana, and Uganda.
It was “divide and conquer” that made it possible for an insignificant island in the north of Europe to rule the world. Division and chaos, tribal, religious and ethnic hatred, were the secret to empire. Guns and artillery were always in the background in case things went awry, but in fact, it rarely came to that.”
*****************END QUOTE*********************
In light of Hallinan’s perspective, one way to look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that Israelis and Palestinians have been manipulated by colonial powers to be at each others’ throats. Both Israelis and Palestinians are victims of a fight they did not create, but to survive, each must carry on the fight, like the slaves made to fight each other to the death in the Roman coliseums, to keep the Roman rabble entertained. I see little joy in cheering for one side or blaming the other side. The Jews were victims of European persecution. The Palestinians were victims of European colonial aggression.
raventhorn says
As a life long Agnostic, I do not doubt so much the existence of the Divine forces of nature, as much as I doubt that they would be so stupid as to have appointed such Earthly representatives who squat in the houses of the Divine.
melektaus says
@perspectivehere
“In light of Hallinan’s perspective, one way to look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that Israelis and Palestinians have been manipulated by colonial powers to be at each others’ throats. Both Israelis and Palestinians are victims of a fight they did not create, but to survive, each must carry on the fight, like the slaves made to fight each other to the death in the Roman coliseums, to keep the Roman rabble entertained. I see little joy in cheering for one side or blaming the other side. The Jews were victims of European persecution. The Palestinians were victims of European colonial aggression.”
That’s how many conflicts are started including the genocides in Rwanda (one in the 70s and one in the 90s). The west structures a colonial society in a way that favors one segment to harm another segment and when the colonial power leaves, the structure is left in place and the two segments are at each other’s throats.
richard says
I love this from up above:
blockquote>But the Jews are clever negotiators, and they troll the internet constantly, looking for places to deflect criticism of Jews or Israel, and apparently places to attack China.
Brilliant. Those “clever” Jews can’t stop trolling. Just ask the authors of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (google it if you don’t know it). And I guess no one here ever — ever — “trolls the Internet” looking for examples of Western media bias against China. Heavens no. No trolling the Internet here!
raventhorn says
@richard
I don’t know what your point is, Richard.
Do you mean to say that we are not being “trolled” here in this forum? Or are you suggesting that we are all “trolls”?
Well, I’m not one to cite strange “documents”, such as “document ___” or the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”. So, No, I don’t know it.
richard says
I’m simply saying it is highly ironic that one of your commenters cites “clever Jews” (a racist remark, like “those secretive Chinese”) and says “they troll the internet constantly, looking for places to deflect criticism of Jews or Israel,..”
Look deep within your heart and answer me this: Does this site not” troll” the Internet as the commenter describes Jews doing above, searching for anti-China bias? It’s a simple question, an easy one to answer. This site is loaded with alleged examples of media bias against China, so someone’s clearly out scouring the Net for examples of this, what your friend above refers to, in regard to Jews, as “trolling.” I am not talking at all about trolls on your site, I am just referring to the comment above. He should have been called out for racism.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fake document written by Russian anti-Semites that purports to be the plan of “clever Jews” to take over the world. It was adopted by Hitler and many other anti-Semites. This notion of “clever Jews” seeking to undermine other countries so they can take over is at the heart of the book.
This comment was anti-Semitic, false and stupid, and it should be condemned:
As a Jew myself, I cannot tell you how offensive this is. No clever Jews are, to use the brilliant commenters’ own words, constantly trolling the Internet to attack China. Do you believe this an intelligent, valid statement?
Larry Long says
Thanks for the comment, Richard, but instead of a diffused ad hominem attack, why don’t you just refute the points I raised, one by one? You don’t need to attack me; just provide documentation proving my statements are invalid – for example, the many dozens of approving comments in your Talmud about pedophilia and pederasty. That shouldn’t be difficult.. If they don’t exist, just tell us.
And about your reference to the Protocols, I’ve read many unsubstantiated claims that it was “just a Russian forgery”, but I’ve never seen anything substantive (that wasn’t just fabricated) to back up those claims. I’ve seen no scholarly research where a preponderance of evidence points to a “forgery”.
And if you have any facts to refute my claim that Israel is racist “religious” state, please do so now. Please list for us all the Christian churches and Moslem temples that have been built in Israel during the past few decades.
We need to be educated on Israel’s (and the Jews’) “freedom of religion”. So far as I am aware, Israel is one of the few states, perhaps excluding only places like Saudi Arabia, that provides no such freedom.
And that being the case, you are in no position to throw stones at China. That’s enough hypocrisy to make a donkey throw up.
The debate on this subject has been very cleverly pushed to the offensive, focusing on trivial detail about China’s regulations, and ignoring the large picture of the Jewish “victims” actually being the perpetrators.
That was true during the Second War, too, wasn’t it? Maybe you’d like to tell us why the Khazar Jews made heated demands to the US and much of Europe to refuse Jewish refugees from Germany? Your own people were responsible for most of your “holocaust”, weren’t they? That’s no secret today. It was one of your first Prime Ministers who said if he could save 6 million Jews or 3 million to go to Palestine, he would choose the latter without hestiation. So maybe we shouldn’t be feeling so guilty, and maybe we shouldn’t be building all those holocaust museums. What do you think?
And there’s more. Wars need to be financed. Even the great imperial powers like England and France had to turn to the Rothschilds, Kuhns and Loebs, Warburgs and Goldmans, to finance all their wars.
Japan was no different. The Jewish Sassoons became billionnaires in the 1800s by their opium trafficking in China, second in wealth only to the Rothschilds themselves. And there is reason to believe they invested a good part of their opium profits in financing the Japanese war of Imperialism – against China. Not very nice.
Many Jews fled to China during the second war, but it wasn’t because “China” let them in. It was because the Shanghai Jews – mostly the Sassoons – made a deal with the Japanese occupation forces to admit them. Only money does that.
But you, because you are “Gods’ Chosen People” believe China should be more welcoming to your “religion” of money and war.
Many parts of history – like the fact that more than 95% of all Jews today are not “Jews” at all, but European Mongol Khazars, who are neither Israelite nor Semitic – are finally coming to light now, and that cannot be prevented. When all the truths are finally out, the number of synagogues in Shanghai may be the least of your problems.
Larry Long says
Thanks for the tirade, Richard. Here’s some food for thought about Internet trolls:
Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s foreign minister, has ordered its embassies in 10 European countries, including the UK, each to recruit 1,000 members of the public to act as advocates for its policies in a new public relations offensive aimed at improving Israel’s standing in Europe.
The have been instructed to identify 1,000 people by mid-January to act as “allies” to Israel. One source described them as “friends who are willing not just to receive (Jewish) messages but to actively promote these messages”. These individuals – likely to be drawn from Jewish or Christian activists, academics, journalists and students – will be briefed regularly by Israeli officials and encouraged to speak up for Israel at public meetings or write letters or articles for the press.
The Israeli government, military and various embassies are adept at using social media such as Twitter, Facebook and YouTube to promote material. Organisations such as Bicom, the Britain Israel Communications Research Centre, in the UK and the Israel Project in the US, which describe themselves as independent, are dedicated to promoting Israeli policies.
HASBARA SPAM ALERT
Richard Silverstein guardian.co.uk, Friday 9 January 2009 11.05 GMT
A reader of my blog has received the following email which documents both the efforts and the agency that originated them. The solicitation to become a pro-Israel “media volunteer” also includes a list of media links which the ministry would like addressed by pro-Israel comments:
“Dear friends,
We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it’s a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.
I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you’re up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets.
If you wish to participate, please respond to this email.”
My friend did so and received this official communique from the ministry with talking points about Operation Cast Lead which s/he was to use in her/his propaganda efforts. Among the links was was a Peter Beaumont Cif piece. The following were identified as “target sites”: the Times, the Guardian, Sky News, BBC, Yahoo!News, Huffington Post, and the Dutch Telegraaf. Also targeted were other media sites in Dutch, Spanish, German and French considered critical of the invasion.
Here the foreign ministry’s coordinator describes a meeting he attended at the government’s offical office:
“Hi all,
I had a meeting in the ministry of foreign affairs today, and was very happy to hear that their metrics show that Israel’s position in the internet is getting better every day. It means that you’re doing a good job! MFA are concerned with the biased public opinion in Europe. So please focus your efforts on European media.
What can you do to help?
– Identify internet battle-grounds in different languages, and let me know
– Comment/post/vote in the listed links and others; you can use the material attached below
– Write letters to authors and editors. Identify yourself as a local resident
– Have your friends join this activity
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hasbara
Hasbara Campus Manual
A Hasbara manual for students to use on US univesity campuses is now available online[2]. A summary of the techniques is provided from page 31 onwards:
Propaganda is used by those who want to communicate in ways that engage the emotions and downplay rationality, in an attempt to promote a certain message.
The manual goes on to describe seven propaganda techniques:
1.Name calling: through the careful use of words, then name calling technique links a person or an idea to a negative symbol.
2.Glittering generality: Simply put, glittering generality is name calling in reverse. Instead of trying to attach negative meanings to ideas or people, glittering generalities use positive phrases, which the audience are attached to, in order to lend positive image to things. Words such as “freedom”, “civilization”,…
3.Transfer: Transfer involves taking some of the prestige and authority of one concept and applying it to another. For example, a speaker might decide to speak in front of a United Nations flag, in an attempt to gain legitimacy for himself or his idea.
4.Testimonial: Testimonial means enlisting the support of somebody admired or famous to endorse and ideal or campaign.
5.Plain folks: The plain folks technique attempts to convince the listener that the speaker is a ‘regular guy’, who is trust-worthy because the are like ‘you or me’.
6.Fear: Stressing that ignoring the message will likely lead to war, terrorism[3]
7.Bandwagon: Suggest that the stated position is mainstream and use polls to suggest this. [4]
Other hasbara efforts
Nation Branding
The Israeli government has contracted with several international PR companies to improve its image in the US, Europe and Canada. In the UK, Acanchi was hired to work on Israel’s nation branding[5]. Saatchi and Saatchi acknowledged that it works with the Israelis free of charge on the re-branding effort.[6] Haaretz also revealed that it attempted to hire a Norwegian PR company for the same purposes.
Larry Long says
Thanks for the tirade, Richard. Here’s some food for thought about Internet trolls:
Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s foreign minister, has ordered its embassies in 10 European countries, including the UK, each to recruit 1,000 members of the public to act as advocates for its policies in a new public relations offensive aimed at improving Israel’s standing in Europe.
The have been instructed to identify 1,000 people by mid-January to act as “allies” to Israel. One source described them as “friends who are willing not just to receive (Jewish) messages but to actively promote these messages”. These individuals – likely to be drawn from Jewish or Christian activists, academics, journalists and students – will be briefed regularly by Israeli officials and encouraged to speak up for Israel at public meetings or write letters or articles for the press.
The Israeli government, military and various embassies are adept at using social media such as Twitter, Facebook and YouTube to promote material. Organisations such as Bicom, the Britain Israel Communications Research Centre, in the UK and the Israel Project in the US, which describe themselves as independent, are dedicated to promoting Israeli policies.
HASBARA SPAM ALERT
Richard Silverstein guardian.co.uk, Friday 9 January 2009 11.05 GMT
A reader of my blog has received the following email which documents both the efforts and the agency that originated them. The solicitation to become a pro-Israel “media volunteer” also includes a list of media links which the ministry would like addressed by pro-Israel comments:
“Dear friends,
We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it’s a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.
I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you’re up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets.
If you wish to participate, please respond to this email.”
My friend did so and received this official communique from the ministry with talking points about Operation Cast Lead which s/he was to use in her/his propaganda efforts. Among the links was was a Peter Beaumont Cif piece. The following were identified as “target sites”: the Times, the Guardian, Sky News, BBC, Yahoo!News, Huffington Post, and the Dutch Telegraaf. Also targeted were other media sites in Dutch, Spanish, German and French considered critical of the invasion.
Here the foreign ministry’s coordinator describes a meeting he attended at the government’s offical office:
“Hi all,
I had a meeting in the ministry of foreign affairs today, and was very happy to hear that their metrics show that Israel’s position in the internet is getting better every day. It means that you’re doing a good job! MFA are concerned with the biased public opinion in Europe. So please focus your efforts on European media.
What can you do to help?
– Identify internet battle-grounds in different languages, and let me know
– Comment/post/vote in the listed links and others; you can use the material attached below
– Write letters to authors and editors. Identify yourself as a local resident
– Have your friends join this activity
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hasbara
Hasbara Campus Manual
A Hasbara manual for students to use on US univesity campuses is now available online[2]. A summary of the techniques is provided from page 31 onwards:
Propaganda is used by those who want to communicate in ways that engage the emotions and downplay rationality, in an attempt to promote a certain message.
The manual goes on to describe seven propaganda techniques:
1.Name calling: through the careful use of words, then name calling technique links a person or an idea to a negative symbol.
2.Glittering generality: Simply put, glittering generality is name calling in reverse. Instead of trying to attach negative meanings to ideas or people, glittering generalities use positive phrases, which the audience are attached to, in order to lend positive image to things. Words such as “freedom”, “civilization”,…
3.Transfer: Transfer involves taking some of the prestige and authority of one concept and applying it to another. For example, a speaker might decide to speak in front of a United Nations flag, in an attempt to gain legitimacy for himself or his idea.
4.Testimonial: Testimonial means enlisting the support of somebody admired or famous to endorse and ideal or campaign.
5.Plain folks: The plain folks technique attempts to convince the listener that the speaker is a ‘regular guy’, who is trust-worthy because the are like ‘you or me’.
6.Fear: Stressing that ignoring the message will likely lead to war, terrorism[3]
7.Bandwagon: Suggest that the stated position is mainstream and use polls to suggest this. [4]
Other hasbara efforts
Nation Branding
The Israeli government has contracted with several international PR companies to improve its image in the US, Europe and Canada. In the UK, Acanchi was hired to work on Israel’s nation branding[5]. Saatchi and Saatchi acknowledged that it works with the Israelis free of charge on the re-branding effort.[6] Haaretz also revealed that it attempted to hire a Norwegian PR company for the same purposes.
raventhorn says
@richard
“Look deep within your heart and answer me this: Does this site not” troll” the Internet as the commenter describes Jews doing above, searching for anti-China bias? It’s a simple question, an easy one to answer.”
I think you are confused, Richard.
“Father Larry” came to this forum. We were merely commenting on his lack of civility.
And “anti-China biases” are being shoved in the media quite publicly, we have very little need to dig them out of some “elder” documents.
If you wish to classify our browsing of the internet as “trolling”, I think we “troll” much less than you do for your forum.
(Seriously, if you have nothing better to do than to come to OUR forum and tell us that we are “trolls”, I think that demonstrates the magnitude of your “trolling”). (No offense, but it is a bit ironic).
richard says
Darling, I didn’t use the word “trolling,” your commenter did, which is why I put it in quote marks. I would say “scouring the Internet.” I never said you were trolls, ever. What I did was ask a question — whether or not you scour, or “troll” as the commenter put it, the Internet looking for example of bias against China. Because your commenter said that’s what “clever Jews” do, and I was wondering whether or not you agree that this site does the equivalent. I see it will be difficult to get an answer.
When you say “OUR” forum, does that mean it does not belong to people who disagree with you? Is it “us” against “them”? It’s an interesting admission on your part and helps explain a lot. I have never trolled this forum. Trolls derail threads and spam them. I am inquiring and interacting. Based on your typical hostility and knee-jerk reactions, you may want to look in the mirror.
perspectivehere says
I would appreciate it if commenters here refrain from making personal attacks and attacking someone’s religion or race.
It is illuminating when a piece of unknown history is brought up. I was unaware of the Sassoon family role in opium dealing in China. I’d like to read more about this. However, I don’t think this means that we should consider all Jews or even Kaifeng Jews today to be responsible in any way (although I presume descendants of the Sassoon family may still retain ill-gotten wealth). As the saying goes, “Behind every great fortune is a great crime.” Not all Jews are rich and powerful, and there are many non-Jews that are rich and powerful.
I do think one can be critical of Israeli policies towards Palestinians and the aims of zionism without being anti-Jewish.
JJ says
@Larry Long
I’m not really comfortable with where this discussion is going.
While I agree that Israel has some racist policies (didn’t a company there forbid their Chinese workers from having relationships with the local women?) I think it’s grossly inaccurate to say “they” brought the Holocaust on themselves.
This would be like saying it’s our fault that Westerners colonized us or that the Rape of Nanjing is our fault because some Chinese person cooperated with the Japanese Army.
Furthermore, I think it’s slightly absurd to think there is some kind of ethnic conspiracy.
I don’t believe people are getting together to try and demonize China. Rather what we have here is merely a confluence of goals.
Creating a narrative that China is bad sells. And that’s why the corporate media does it.
Ray says
@richard
However, to a certain extend don’t you think that whenever you use blanket statement on the CCP, Chinese government and people you are doing the same things. When you use innuendo suggesting that China is the prickly, pouting child etc.
Imagine people setting a blog similar to yours and writing about Israel in the same way as you do attacking the Israeli government using terms such as racist, Zionist, invaders etc. You would be screaming anti-Semitism and racism. Now the boot is on the other side and you feel uncomfortable.
I will be very frank with you. This is how I feel after reading your blog, you are a racist who doesn’t realize it.
Al says
I think Richard is a racist, knows perfectly he is, has no problem with it, except he doesn’t like too much to be called one in public…
richard says
Yes, Al, I am a terrible racist. Criticizing the CCP is a very racist thing to do. But just out of curiosity, what do you think I’ve ever said that was racist — just one single example. I’m curious.
Ray, I never make blanket statements about the CCP, or at least not for the past several years. I almost always temper my criticisms by pointing out that the CCP has done a lot of good.
It’s interesting how you change the subject. I asked two simple questions no one will go near:
1. Is it acceptable to say “clever Jews” “troll” the Internet to look for stuff they can use to attack China? JJ up above at least addressed it indirectly and I respect him for it.
2. Does this site scour the Internet looking for examples of media bias against China? You know, there’s a saying from the Book of Matthew in the New Testament: “Seek, and ye shall find.” When you go looking intentionally for media bias in China you can always find it. Even if it’s not really there.
melektaus says
look at “Richard” now complaining and playing the race card at the remark “Jews are clever negotiators.” He says he doesn’t see the anti-China sentiment in the article but is now whining and playing the race card over a remark saying that Jews are good negotiators. A Holocaust is just around every corner for this guy just as the ADL would like every Jew to believe. This kind of hypocrisy and whining is common among privileged whites. They simply can’t or won’t see blatant racism or bias against any other people but are the first to bitch and moan over something as trivial as a remark about Jews being clever negotiators, a complement if anything.
melektaus says
This is what the hypocrite “Richard” said in regards to this post:
“This post is looney tunes. Can you clip the part that says the West is superior to China, or that even implies it? If you can construe this from the article, then you can find China bias anywhere and everywhere. There is no anti-China bias — not a single syllable — in this article. None. But you want there to be, because that’s what this blog feeds on.”
But now he is saying that the remark “Jews are clever negotiators” is “racist”. Look how stupid this guy must be to make such a patently contradictory remark after his own post.
Racism is defined as
“: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”
Saying that Jews are clever negotiators does not say nor imply that anyone if superior to them. In fact, it’s a complement if anything. This guy is a clown.
Ray says
@richard
Spare me the indignant. Calling China a prickly, pouting child and suggest that the people of China is immature sounds pretty condescending to me.
So if I say that the IDF is a children murdering organization, you would be fine with it? How many kids have the IDF killed in the last ten years? Is it not a fact? If I am to use that and called for people to take action against IDF members and turn around and tell you, “I love Jewish people, I just want the best for them that’s all, only the IDF is the evil one.” How would you feel?
You must be blind to say that there’s no media bias against China and the Chinese people as a whole. In case you don’t know the Chinese is actually the new Jew. Whatever prejudice the European and North American public once held against the Jewish people has been amplified many times against the Chinese people.
“The others” have always been convenient scapegoats used by politicians to rouse public opinion. I am also not naive to say that there’s no media bias against the Jewish people today but due to historical events and present politics the attack have subsided quit a lot in mainstream western media.
The CCP has many flaws but in case you don’t know they are the ONLY protector of China’s interest and as such the protector of the Chinese people. I hope this exchange will raise this awareness.
Yes, I agree saying that “clever Chinese” trolling the internet looking for material to attack “Israel” is offensive. Anyway, “Ask and you shall received.” I encourage you to know the CCP and how the PRC operates, bear in mind that what works a country for a few million people wouldn’t work for a country of over a billion. Get to know some of them and you will know both the good and the bad.
Jinsheng says
Richard does not understand that China is 5000 years old and deserves the highest respect. Criticizing China especially from the little countries like Israel does not show proper respect and shows ignorance. Do you think it is an accident that no non-Chinese person can speak perfect Chinese? But look at all of the Chinese who speak perfect English? Even on this blog! Richard if you show the proper respect and apologize then we can respect you. If you are willing to learn from China. But now you are just a small country person who cannot understand big country China. Shame on you.
JJ says
@Jinsheng
Eh… I can definitely understand your passion and anger at how the corporate media disrespects us, but I don’t think we should stoop to their levels either.
And we shouldn’t really care what others think of us. The main goal here is to simply enlighten and educate.
Also, I actually do know quite a few non-Chinese folks that can speak Mandarin perfectly and can also read Chinese. Of course most of them actually grew up in Asia and attended international schools, but we have to remember that this isn’t an “Us vs. Them” issue.
We need to be inclusive and sympathize that some of those folks raised on Western corporate media and dogma never had a chance to understand what Chinese culture and society is really like.
xian says
Seems like nothing IMO
Jews and Muslims still identify themselves very much with their religions, it wouldn’t surprise me if some Kaifeng Jews really did feel more comfortable in Israel regardless of circumstances
raventhorn says
@richard
“Because your commenter said that’s what “clever Jews” do, and I was wondering whether or not you agree that this site does the equivalent. I see it will be difficult to get an answer.”
Not at all, very easy to answer. I don’t see this site doing the “equivalent”. Mr. Blanket assertion, meet blanket answer. 🙂
“When you say “OUR” forum, does that mean it does not belong to people who disagree with you? Is it “us” against “them”? It’s an interesting admission on your part and helps explain a lot. I have never trolled this forum. Trolls derail threads and spam them. I am inquiring and interacting. Based on your typical hostility and knee-jerk reactions, you may want to look in the mirror.”
Not at all, You wrote above in #21 “But you want there to be, because that’s what this blog feeds on.”
You were clearly differentiating US from yourself there. I was merely following the context of your own verbage.
Mr. Knee-jerk, meet yourself! 🙂
Ray says
@Jinsheng
It is not that big and old country like China that doesn’t like to be disrespected. All people want equality. The Somalis, Afghan etc have no problem fighting US soldiers when they think that their tuff is invaded.
Some people just don’t get it.
pug_ster says
I thought it was kind of Zionist to give these Kaifeng Jews preferential 5 star treatment while leaving the other Chinese behind, no worse than discrimination.
Worse, is that this kind of racism towards non-Jews even went on in the US. In the B110 bus which runs in Brooklyn, NY, women have to sit in the back of the bus, even if you are not a Jew. I thought this kind of crap went away after the Jim Crow era.
I’ve said it more than a year ago that Richard runs a hate site and I find it funny that he gets offended with minor remarks like ‘clever Jews.’ I’m sure that no Chinese gets offended here when I say ‘clever Chinese.’ Alot of Americans whine that Chinese ‘can’t take criticism,’ looks like Richard can’t take criticism either.
Charles Liu says
@pug_ster
Exactely, you don’t see Richard get all indignant when netters generalize about “50 cent party”, as if no Chinese can ever come to their own conclusion, and disagree with the western official narrative, without accepting so little as 7 US cents.
richard says
Yes, pug, I run a hate site. All I do is say bad things about Chinese people — except I’ve never done it. The only people I tear up are US Republicans, and Chinese government officials who arrest innocent people. I love CHina and have lived there for years and hope to go back. It is my favorite place on earth. My relationships with my Chinese friends are sacrosanct.
Have you wondered why intelligent people devoted to China like Custer and Adam Minter leave here in disgust at the lack of coherent arguments and the name-calling reserved for Westerners? (Pug calls my site a hate site, another up above calls me “racist”; examples abound, but the moderators go into overdrive when you say it against one of the regulars here.)
Anyway, I can see we won’t get anywhere. No one addressed my question: Does this site scour the Internet searching for media bias against China? Is that the lifeblood of this site, and if that topic were excluded, what would this blog be about?
Mr. Thorn, as I’ve said before, your predictability is equalled only by your hostility. You arguments make zero sense (see above; just because I use the word “you” you’re saying I’m dividing the discussion into us vs. them? What should I call you instead of “you”? Anyway, I give up on this one. And still waiting for the response to my “scouring” question.
YinYang says
@richard
You would be infinitely more credible if you address the substantive points raised above by Larry Long, melektaus, and Ray, to name a few.
Prove their arguments wrong and you won’t need to spend one iota of energy about anything else. Otherwise what we have in this thread here in plain sight is basically bigotry, isn’t it?
You said:
There is wide-spread propaganda in the Western media attacking ‘China.’ We are not looking for things that do not exist. We are trying to help Westerners understand the narratives fed them are often wrong:
https://hiddenharmonies.org/2011/10/collective-defamation/
https://hiddenharmonies.org/2011/07/pew-research-report-the-u-s-media-on-china/
Again, if all you can muster is further attacks and no counter arguments, then what does that say about your blog?
pug_ster says
Richard,
I called PKD a hate site not because of your opinions on the Chinese government and other stuff but because you allow people to make disgusting comments about my family. You don’t even remove those comments, but instead you censor me. Would you be upset if we talk about your family and yinyang did nothing but instead, he removed your comments?
Yes, there are alot of opinionated people there and you can probably tell from the comments here. I recall that Custer went bat crazy at me about a 6 year old who could not go to school and he seem to take it personally, I don’t.
I noticed in Western Media there’s not alot of criticism towards Israel and its ‘zionist’ policies and we are discussing it here. And I don’t think it is racist.
raventhorn says
“Mr. Thorn, as I’ve said before, your predictability is equalled only by your hostility. You arguments make zero sense (see above; just because I use the word “you” you’re saying I’m dividing the discussion into us vs. them? What should I call you instead of “you”? Anyway, I give up on this one. And still waiting for the response to my “scouring” question.”
Well, what else should I can this forum, but “OUR forum”, since I do write posts in OUR forum. I thought I was being inclusive, but apparently, you don’t want to be part of “OUR forum”. But that’s your view of “US vs. them”, not mine. 🙂
What “scouring” question are you referring to, I thought I answered it as specific as you posed your questions.
🙂
GoldenEagle888 says
Richard – China is a great country with 5000 years of history. You should apologize to us for the lack of respect. My research shows that Israel has only 62 years of history and many friends in the media. So apologize for that too. China!
Charles Liu says
@richard
Richard, I do not “scour the Internet” for biased China reporting, they present themselves to me on regular basis.
I am with pug. I too do not believe you banned me for legitimate reason, so I’ve been boycotting PKD for the last few years.
pug_ster says
@Charles Liu
Don’t even waste your time in Richard’s site, even if he let us in. C Custer’s site is not that far off from PKD anyways. Custer say that he doesn’t allow personal attacks in that site yet he didn’t even notice or purposely ignored that some moron talks about ‘shooting my mom.’ Adam Minter’s site is not bad. I don’t agree with everything he says, but at least he does his job moderating the site.
perspectivehere says
@Richard / @pug_ster
This is getting a little off-topic.
But it is a “teachable moment” that we can all learn from.
Richard & Adam claim to be offended by remarks here that they think are Anti-Jewish, but are not offended by the Anti-China items that Melektaus sees in the article.
Melektaus (and others) do not understand why Richard and Adam think they are over-reacting to what Richard and Adam think are neutral language.
I think it illustrates a fact of human nature, that a person is inevitably less sensitive to comments that are not directed to him, and more sensitive to comments that are (or are perceived to be) directed to him.
Humans may claim to be objective and rational, but the reality is that humans are subjective and rationalizing.
If someone on this site has made an anti-Jewish comment, I might be more inclined to let it go, although as a native new yorker who has read the NYTimes since about birth, I might be a bit more aware of Jewish points of view (one could say “sensitive”, “indoctrinated” or “brainwashed” as well — they are very similar processes). For a Jewish person, that comment could make them feel unwelcome or worse, deliberately insulted, and that those who make the comments (or permit the comment to be made without objection) are Anti-Jewish.
Similarly, to a non-Chinese person, they are simply unaware that certain ways of speaking about China or Chinese might be seen as offensive, especially if these are regarded as commonly held points of view.
The problem is varying levels of sensitivities. A comment that is hurtful to one person may not be hurtful to the next.
A classic on this is the Woody Allen scene from his film Annie Hall, when someone asked him, “Did you eat?” he took it as a slur “Jew Eat?” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaPBhxXhprg
In that case, the filmmaker pokes fun at the main characters’ oversensitivity. But the poking is done by a Jewish filmmaker. If the same point is made by a non-Jewish character in the film talking about how Jews overreact to the most innocuous things, then that would have been perceived very differently, even if it is the same ‘truth’ that they are talking about.
Another great scene:
Annie Hall Easter Dinner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TSvMx2wPI
I think the only way out is for people to acknowledge each others’ sensitivities, to recognize that I may not perceive the same data in the same way if I am not the one being attacked.
raventhorn says
@perspectivehere
I beg to differ slightly. I take great care to not to offend people’s sensitivities, but there are obviously limits. I’m not going to entertain someone’s completely unreasonable expectations of “sensitivities”.
I avoid personal judgments, even if it is based upon obvious and “predictable” patterns of behaviors of someone.
Hey, I’ll argue facts and conclusions, but I’m no push-over. If people can’t handle that, that’s their problem.
Insult me and get even less respect in return, that’s my rule.
*If someone wants to call someone else “anti-Semitic”, expect to be disputed. (as much as I expect the same if I called someone “anti-China”. Thus, I generally and usually only tell people that their conclusions are wrong.) 🙂
raventhorn says
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/313314
Here are some accusations of anti-Semitism in OWS protests.
I have no doubt that there are some anti-Semitics in OWS protests, but I refrain from making generalizations based upon that, (nor would I make generalizations based upon some rather flimsy facts about who owns majority shares in Western media, or the amount of money Israel spends on lobbying in US).
I personally don’t believe that OWS protesters are unhappy because they are blaming “jews” for controlling the corporations. In fact, I think majority of them are JUST unhappy with corporations in general, regardless of who owns them.
*But on the other hand, I have seen some pretty “sensitive” people reacting to “anti-Semitism”.
So maybe those folks need to return to US and Europe and deal with their own “anti-Semitic” problems, seeing how now it is flaring up.
🙂 No need to “scour” for “anti-Semitism”. It’s in public in US and Europe now.
pug_ster says
@raventhorn
I think there’s alot of what many perceive anti-Semitism in the US is because of US’ unfettered support of Israel and its human rights abuses and how Israel with the support of the US has always created this instability in the Middle East for the last 50+ years. I am against what the Israeli government is doing does not make me a racist.
The problem with the Western Media is that they suppress all kind of mentioning of these racist and zionist policies by the Israeli government, collaboration with Israel and wrongdoing by them makes you a ‘racist’ and thus censored. This kind of censorship forces people to talk about it in the living rooms instead of a public forum and have many people making speculations and conspiracies that the US government is runned by Jews and increase the overall feelings of mistrust towards them.
perspectivehere says
Rereading some of the comments above, I give high marks to Morton who seems to be genuinely interested in listening. I hope Morton returns for more dialogue. Adam was also constructive, although he was offended by Raventhorn’s suggestion that there may be discrimination against Chinese Jews, and may have been put off by it.
I give low marks to Richard, whose first comment was this:
“This post is looney tunes. Can you clip the part that says the West is superior to China, or that even implies it? If you can construe this from the article, then you can find China bias anywhere and everywhere. There is no anti-China bias — not a single syllable — in this article. None. But you want there to be, because that’s what this blog feeds on.”
The attitude expressed in Richard’s posts reminds me of this:
***************************************************************
“When summarizing, Justice Brown declared, “We consider the underlying fallacy of the plaintiff’s argument to consist in the assumption that the enforced separation of the two races stamps the colored race with a badge of inferiority. If this be so, it is not by reason of anything found in the act, but solely because the colored race chooses to put that construction upon it.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson#The_decision
“Plessy v. Ferguson” is an infamous 1896 US Supreme Court case that confirmed segregation was legal in the U.S. Justice Brown was basically saying that those who complained that the segregation laws created inequality were wrong; that segregation did not imply inferiority for colored people, and it is only colored peoples’ interpretation that suggests there is any inferiority implied.
No doubt the judges who ruled in favor of segregation believed that they were fair-minded, just and reasonable, and would have been offended if someone accused them of being racist, prejudiced and closeminded. Yet, racist, prejudiced and close-minded they were.
To me, the question is whether the justices really listened to what the plaintiffs were saying, or had made up their minds to rule the way they did regardless of what the plaintiffs said.
****************************************************************
I think Melektaus has laid out reasons why he thought the LA Times article was objectionable. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, the article created ill-feeling in some readers.
For me, the Chinese phrase that best describes my reaction upon reading the article is “反感”: “因反对或不满而引起的厌憎心理反应.” (http://www.hudong.com/wiki/反感). If I felt that way, then maybe other people from China would feel that way too? I’m interested in finding out, and I’d like to hear those voices, not shut them up.
Richard on the other hand comes in with a categorical rejection, and seems uninterested in a real dialogue, and makes insulting remarks. Then when some commenter writes something he finds objectionable, he becomes righteous and indignant, and accuses everyone on this forum of being an extremist of some sort. Not sure why he is here other than to provoke reactions from people (which he is getting). I’m not sure he adds much to anyone’s understanding. Is that a worthwhile way to spend his time?
I’m not the moderator, but I wish Richard would behave a little more constructively. I’m sure you’re capable of more constructive participation in this forum. Would you please?
richard says
Richard on the other hand comes in with a categorical rejection, and seems uninterested in a real dialogue, and makes insulting remarks.
Which insulting remarks are you referring to? I came here asking some very simple questions, and of course I am called the proprietor of a “hate site” and a “racist.” I ask you to show me the hate and show me the racism. You can’t because there isn’t any.
Charles Liu and Pug are not banned. I just hold their comments for review, which is my right as the blog owner. You can comment there anytime.
perspectivehere says
I went to the website of the ADL – Anti-Defamation League.
http://www.adl.org/
The ADL has a part of their website devoted to “Recommended Multi-Cultural and Anti-Bias Books for Children”. I found this there:
“El Chino
Written and Illustrated by Allen Say
Billy, the son of immigrants from China, was always told by his father that “In America, you can be anything you want to be.” Billy’s dreams of being a famous basketball player, however, are met with laughs and comments like, “Who’s ever heard of a Chinese athlete!” Billy gives up his hopes of being a great athlete and studies engineering. Years later, while visiting Spain, Billy’s dreams are reawakened when he falls in love with bullfighting and defies expectations to become the first Asian matador.”
http://www.adl.org/bibliography/book_detail.asp?bookdetail=942
The story of Billy Wong is a true story:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/elchino/el-chino
I think it is a wonderful thing that on a website devoted to fighting discrimination against Jews I can find featured a children’s book about a Chinese American bull-fighter in Spain.
This gives me hope, which counters the bias and negativity in the LA Times article and expressed by some commenters in this forum.
perspectivehere says
@Richard
“Which insulting remarks are you referring to?”
“This post is looney tunes.”
Would you use that kind of language in a professional setting against a colleague without the colleague becoming insulted? If not, why would you do it here?
Ray says
@perspectivehere
Another virtually unknown Chinese-Hispanic figure is Art Chin. He is the first US fighter ace of WWII.
perspectivehere says
@Ray #98
Thanks – I had never heard of Art Chin before. I looked him up and read these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Chin
http://www.sinoam.com/ARTHURCHIN2.htm
What an amazing guy!
Ray says
@perspectivehere
Although a military history buff, I only read about him after he passed away when he got decorated posthumously.
There are also many US, UK pilots of Jewish descents who went back to fight for Israel.
pug_ster says
@richard
Where did I say that your site is racist? In your disgusting site, you seem to spread hate towards other posters who you don’t like, even writing posts about them. Then every troll out there seem to gloat and rail against that person and you even encourage it and doing it. Out of all the China blogs out there, this kind of un-professionalism and hate only exists on your site. Of course, it is your right, because it is YOUR blog. So it is my right to call your blog a hate site.
Charles Liu says
@richard
Richard, you have the right to moderate your blog, but you don’t have the right to selectively moderate – that’s censorship.
And when you censor opinions simply because you don’t like them, we the readers have the right to boycott your site, that’s our right.
melektaus says
Those are some interesting stories, perpectival. I’m really interested in characters like that who have been forgotten by history. If they had been white instead of Chinese, there’d probably be movies made about them. Or maybe there already has but the characters has been whitewashed like the movie 21 has whitewashed the mostly Chinese American MIT students the story is based.
perspectivehere says
@Charles Liu / @Richard
Richard & Charles’ debate on this illustrates a classic conflict between “private vs public” and racist behavior.
Richard (#95) wrote:
“I came here asking some very simple questions, and of course I am called the proprietor of a “hate site” and a “racist.” I ask you to show me the hate and show me the racism. You can’t because there isn’t any. Charles Liu and Pug are not banned. I just hold their comments for review, which is my right as the blog owner. You can comment there anytime.”
Charles Liu (#102) wrote:
“Richard, you have the right to moderate your blog, but you don’t have the right to selectively moderate – that’s censorship. And when you censor opinions simply because you don’t like them, we the readers have the right to boycott your site, that’s our right.”
********************************************************
Segregation in the US was and is defended on the basis of “private property”: Within my establishment (for example a restaurant) I have the right to do whatever I want. If I do not want to serve “colored persons” that is my right.
During the civil rights era in the US, many African Americans refused to accept that logic, and participated in “sit-ins”. They were arrested but this created public media attention. The injustice of this kind of ugly behavior confronted the nation. This led many states to adopt laws that private establishment that serves the public must do so in a non-discriminatory way.
The restaurant owners who refused to serve “colored persons” did not see themselves as unjust. They believed they were acting within their rights, and they may not have believed themselves to be “racist”. Many might say that they have black friends or black employees and they love them. That might be true. But they were still behaving in ways that compound the problems of racism, despite their denials.
*********************************************************
Now, before Richard says that he is not racist because he permits anyone to access his site, that is clearly not the point of this analogy. The point made is whether the environment is one where ideas not conforming to his ideas are exchanged in a way that furthers understanding.
I’ve been to the PKD site and commented there but I rarely go now. While some comments are thoughtful they get drowned out by the “dog pack” behavior of some commenters who ridicule others views. This is boorish, frat boy style bullying behavior by commenters. To be fair, Richard does from time to time rein in the worst. However, he’s not a fair umpire either. Who likes to watch or join a game where the referee is clearly calling plays in favor of one side? But when confronted, the referee is indignant and offended anyone makes that accusation? Well, it’s there for everyone to see – just go to the videotape.
No one likes to read about this:
“Liverpool players accused of racism in FA Youth Cup tie at Anfield
• Crystal Palace player ‘disgusted with racism throughout game’
• We didn’t receive any complaints, says Liverpool spokesman”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jan/10/liverpool-crystal-palace-racism-row
It’s bad for the sport.
Augis says
🙂
The author of this post knows a lot about China but very little about Israel and Jews.
1) Jews from all of the world repatriate to Israel – including Jews from US and Europe. And most of them feel that Israel is their home. So – there is absolutely nothing anti-Chinese in the article.
2) Israel is not West.
3) The whole goal of Israel’s existence is to be a land for all Jews – so that they can RETURN to their homeland from anywhere in the world. In the center of Jewish belief is that Israel is their home – even if generations of Jews had lived in other country for hundreds of years.
If Kaifeng Jews kept their traditions – then it means that every year they greeted each other with the words “Next year in Jerusalem!” expressing their desire to come back home.
4) Yes, those who come back to Israel (repatriate) get financial help. This is coming not from some secret organization, but from government and it it paid to EVERY Jew coming to Israel. But it’s not that big money, and trust me – it’s not something that will make one love or hate Israel.
5) I missed the quote in the original article which said that Kaifeng Jews are sent to settlements or “occupied Palestine”. Can you show me where you took it from? Or was it your personal addition?
Augis says
@Larry Long
Larry, your comment made me laugh so much. Thank you for that!
I’ve heard A LOT of antisemitic statements in my life, but yours was the second most hilarious. 😉
If you believe that few thousands of Jews were able to “poison” with opium hundreds of millions of Chinese and bring devastation to China – then you seem to be of very low opinion about Chinese.
raventhorn says
A few thousands of Mexican drug dealers are doing a number on US, the current superpower. That sort of says something.
richard says
I absolutely DO have the right to “censor” my blog. Comments are a courtesy, not a god-given right; it would only be censorship if I were a government or a public utility. This blog deletes comments sometimes, and so do I — but practically never. You have to understand, it’s my blog, and this is your blog, and we can handle comments however we choose.
I asked you to show me the racism on my site. As I said, there isn’t any. When someone makes a racist comment about the Chinese I call them on it and tell them it will not be tolerated. Don’t believe me? Check out the comments over here. And that’s just from two weeks ago. I do this regularly. I never tolerate racism of any kind, period.
Everything Augis said. He is so spot on. Typically, all Dr. Thorn can do to reply is change the subject to the US.
Charles Liu says
And we the readers absolutely DO have the right to boycott PKD, when you target people for censorship, simply because you don’t like the opinion.
raventhorn says
“Everything Augis said. He is so spot on. Typically, all Dr. Thorn can do to reply is change the subject to the US.”
Why is it changing the subject? never heard of SCALE of comparison, Richard?
I guess Richard can have opinions on China, but if WE have opinions on US in relation to the DRUG problem in perspective, it’s “changing the subject”?
Gee, what a great 1 way talk down conversation we have getting, eh? Yeah, sure feels a bit “racist” drafty by the very nature of your presumption there. 🙂
melektaus says
First of all, where did I say anything contrary to what you said here? Yeah, duh, of course Jews from all over the world make Aliyah. Where did I say otherwise? That’s not the point of the post.
Second, where did I say that Israel “is the west” [sic]? I didn’t even say “Israel is in the west.” Israel is in the Middle East. But its culture, however, is certainly quite western which is no surprise considering that most Israelis immigrated from western nations and its government is designed based on many western government’s model. So you’re a little confused.
Third, what does all this nonsense have to do with anything I said? Don’t get any more confused than you already are. I never claimed in the post that Israelis weren’t returning “to their homeland” whatever that means. The Kaifeng Jews, first of all, didn’t originate from Israel or even ancient Palestine or “Eretz Israel” but from central Asia, Persia and Iraq so, again, what you said is both irrelevant and wrong.
Again, who said it was coming from a “secret” organization? I said it was explicit that it was NOT a secret that that they were being funded when I mentioned that it is proudly displayed on Shavei Israel’s website for all to see and gave the link. Reread the post. You are seeing things or perhaps you lack the literacy skills required to read at the 7th grade reading level?
Again, you seem to be having reading difficulties. I said that Shavei Israel have paid people to move to occupied Palestine, not that all of the Kaifeng Jews are now living in the occupied West Bank, although that certainly is a possibility considering Shavei Israel’s past practices of putting their people in occupied territory. Shavei Israel has a history of moving people they bring to Israel into the West Bank and they have gotten a lot of flack for it as admitted by their founder Michael Freund. Many of those helped by Shavei Israel in the past have settled in Beit el, Ofrah and Kiryat Arba which are all in the West Bank.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123481#.Tqhutt4Uqsr
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4400957.stm
“Israeli social scientist Lev Grinberg told the BBC last year that right-wing Jewish groups wanted such conversions of distant people to boost the population in areas disputed by the Palestinians.”
Larry Long says
Augis wrote:
“I’ve heard A LOT of antisemitic statements in my life, but yours was the second most hilarious. If you believe that few thousands of Jews were able to “poison” with opium hundreds of millions of Chinese and bring devastation to China – then you seem to be of very low opinion about Chinese.”
Your claims of “anti-Semitism” are worn, tiresome, and of no import. That term today has no meaning except to be used as a kind of smear word, applied mostly because Jews believe it will frighten people to be tagged with that label. And in so doing, they mean only to stifle any legitimate discourse with threats. It doesn’t work.
And besides, the only true “Semites” today are the Arabs in Palestine. There are almost no semitic Jews left anywhere in the world. Even Jewish magazines have claimed that “virtually 100% of all Jews today are descendants of the European Khazars – which makes you Mongol, Hun, Magyar and Uigur, but neither Semite nor Israelite. And you can’t spin that away, either.
And since I am on the side of the Palestinians, that makes me “Pro-Semite” rather than “Anti-Semite”. And besides, if I can be anti-American if I want, why can’t I be anti-Jew or anti-anything else, without being accused of a “moral outrage” or a “crime against humanity”? It is no crime to despise evil, either with the Jews’ opium dealing or with the savage tragedies being committed against the Palestinian people today.
And yes, the activities of the Sassoons and other Jews in China are too well documented for you to pretend superior knowledge and try to spin away one of the greatest unconscionable brutalities in our modern history. The Jews, with the full backing of what was at the time the world’s greatest military, did indeed attempt to turn an entire nation of people into drug addicts – for the sake of money.
And that “Jews’ business” was so profitable that David Sassoon wouldn’t permit anyone other than Jews to participate in it. The taxes alone that the Sassoons paid to the British treasury were sufficient to finance all of Britain’s wars for more than 60 years. The Sassoons became billionnaires by the late 1800s, almost solely from their opium dealing.
And the tragedy to China is also well-documented. Not only that, with China in its then weakened state, Sassoon used his drug money to help Japan finance its imperial wars against China, profiting yet once more from human misery. And that is why Imperial Japan permitted the Shanghai Jews to arrange relocation of tens of thousands of Jews fleeing Europe during the second war.
The Jewish record in China is an extensively documented history of the worst kind of greed bringing about the worst kind of human misery. Your immature comments attempting to dismiss this reprehensible conduct, will have no effect. It’s always the same: Jewish sympathisers cannot defend their record, so they simply lie.
raventhorn says
“I asked you to show me the racism on my site. As I said, there isn’t any. When someone makes a racist comment about the Chinese I call them on it and tell them it will not be tolerated. Don’t believe me? Check out the comments over here. And that’s just from two weeks ago. I do this regularly. I never tolerate racism of any kind, period.”
Really?
Just now, you had a post about Chinese language on your forum, and your “King Tubby” writes http://www.pekingduck.org/2011/10/pinyins-inventor-105-speaks-out-against-government/comment-page-2/#comment-164098,
“As I have a structuralists view of language, China is doubly cursed, when you add (the recent variant of) Confucian organisation of their social universe.”
“Add Confucianism and we have the linguistic constraints on thought – after all we think thru language categories – and this is what I am exactly suggesting.”
*Sounds to me pretty racist, ie. suggesting that Chinese are “constrained on thought”, because of Culture, Confucian organization of “their social universe”, and LANGUAGE???!!
Even SK Cheung thought it was a bit over board, but you said nothing.
POINT, set, match.
Augis says
Augis :
The author of this post knows a lot about China but very little about Israel and Jews.
1) Jews from all of the world repatriate to Israel – including Jews from US and Europe. And most of them feel that Israel is their home. So – there is absolutely nothing anti-Chinese in the article.
First of all, where did I say anything contrary to what you said here? Yeah, duh, of course Jews from all over the world make Aliyah. Where did I say otherwise? That’s not the point of the post.
END_OF_QUOTE
I even don’t know where to start 🙂
I didn’t expect that you would understand what I wrote (because you know very little about Jews and Israel). But you surprised me that you even don’t understand what you have written yourself in your post. And someone is talking about literacy – hehe..
Well, let me cut you some slack. Please, read slowly…
1) You have named your article “Article uses Kaifeng Jews to put China down”. Even in your URL you play with the same sentiments by saying “media uses Kaifeng Jews to speak negatively about China”.
2) Even after carefully cutting out excerpts from the original article, the best logical sequence you come up with is the following.
Kaifeng Jews left China and went to Israel + They say they feel more happy in Israel –> They think that Israel is superior to China
I explained to you, that Jews are coming to Israel not only from China, but from everywhere in the world. It’s part of Jewish belief, tradition and religion. And there is NOTHING anti-Chinese in the fact that Jews feel more happy in Israel than anywhere else, be it China, America or Russia.
***
I can dissect the rest of your “arguments” in a similar way, but at this point it is meaningless.
Here is some homework for you. After completing it – you might come to that level of literacy on which we will be able to have a meaningful conversation.
Please, refrain from replying before completing the following homework.
Use internet to read some material and answer the following questions:
1) What does it mean “being a Jewish”?
2) What does the Law of Repatriation [to Israel] say?
3) What is the difference between ethnicity, nationality and religion in Judaism?
4) How do the answers above apply to the article which I tried to discuss in my post?
Bonus question:
5) Try to find what the the genetic analysis say about the origins of Ashkenazi Jews and how does it contradict the theory of Eastern European Jews descending from Khazars?
Augis says
Answer to Larry Long on this –> “For one thing, Israel is a racist state, with only the “religious” glue of Judaism holding it together. In other words, if you aren’t a “Jew” – defined as having converted to Judaism, you aren’t welcome there.”
1) A large group of Ethiopian Jews (they are Black as one can guess) repatriated to Israel. They are warmly welcome and got financial help – just like every other Jew, ans started building their life in Israel to their liking.
2) Kaifeng Jews (Asian from racial point of view) – again are welcome in Israel, get financial help etc..
3) At this point Larry will say “I mentioned religious glue. They were converted to Judaism – the same religion saves them from racism.”
To this I have four answers.
First, in most classical examples of racism the exploiter and exploited had the same religion and it still didn’t help the exploited against racism. So – Israel in this respect is already better, isn’t it? 😉
Second, I myself – along with about two hundred thousand other Russians living in Israel – am not Jewish according to Judaism. Still I feel absolutely welcome and equal in Israel.
Third, my wife – who is ethnically Chinese (so, she is both Asian and non-Jewish religiously) – without any problem lives in Israel, works as a teacher and is surrounded with a lot of love and respect from her colleagues and students.
Fourth, Israeli Arabs – both Christian and Muslim – are absolutely equal in Israel and can live their lives as they wish.
4) And if we already talk about racism – how about looking into the mirror?
– I don’t know much about Black people in China, but I heard the name of Lou Jing, did you?
And she – by the way – was born in China, lived all her life in China and spoke Chinese… well, she WAS Chinese. But she was Black.
We all know how she was abused. Comparison with Ethiopian Jews is definitely not in China’s favor.
– I am sure that Xinjiang Muslims also would have something to say on the topic of racism.
– And finally, here is an interesting link. I would LOVE to know your opinion on it (if you have the courage not to change the topic) –> http://talkingwriting.com/?p=22883
Augis says
Larry Long said: Your claims of “anti-Semitism” are worn, tiresome, and of no import. And besides, the only true “Semites” today are the Arabs in Palestine. There are almost no semitic Jews left anywhere in the world.
***
Dude, what is really worn and tiresome is when someone after being called “Anti-semite” dives into false semantics about what “Semite” mean. This is a low argument even for you.
Please, join Melektaus in his homework about finding out the genetic evidence against the Khazarian pseudo-theory. Along the way you might learn a thing or two about DNA 😉
I will not participate in further discussions with you until you close your education gaps.
melektaus says
Again, what exactly did I say that was wrong? You cannot answer and instead give these red herrings based on not what I said but what you have misread as me saying. Now English may be your second language or it may just be some cognitive deficit responsible but nothing you managed to say even touches on my original post which is about the article using Kaifeng Jews to speak negatively about China suggesting that western culture and society is better.
I never said that Israel “is the west” [sic]. You said that, not me. What I said was that these Chinese Jews are quoted as suggesting that western culture or politics is superior to China. I never said that Shavei Israel is a secret organization. I did say that their funding and their “assisting” practices is made public on their website.
You don’t seem to even understand what I said despite it being written in plain English written at the 7th grade reading level.
And I pointed out that they were also being paid by Shavei Israel and the Israeli government. You have not provided proof that they have not been “assisted” in such ways. That is a failure on your part to even respond to any point I made. I never said Jews weren’t coming from different parts of the world to live in Israel. Just because many Jews from around the world are going to Israel does not entail that they are not being paid also to do so. You seem to also lack some basic logic skills along with your reading difficulties.
Translation: I have been seriously disabused of my fallacious thinking and am at a loss as to how to respond intelligently.
None of the bilge you spewed in the rest of your post has anything to do with what anyone here said. It is irrelevant claptrap made to confuse others to the same level as you. Your mind seems to be very cloudy, perhaps from studying the Talmud too hard.
melektaus says
@Augis
Here’s some homework for you:
http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Remedy-Essential-Skills-Reader/dp/047174204X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319666514&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Thinking-Skills–Critical-reading/dp/1601441495/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319667119&sr=1-1
Remedial reading comprehension and critical thinking exercises for young children.
You’re welcome.
Charles Liu says
@Augis
“I heard the name of Lou Jing, did you?”
Apparently you only saw sensationalist western narrative that cherry picked a few slurs against Lou Jing. Did you research this story? I did, and fact is vast majority of Chinese netters supported her and rejected racism:
http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2009/10/21/lou-jing-racism-gone-wild/#comment-51716
pug_ster says
@richard
While it is debatable about this quote is true or not.
But the Jews are clever negotiators, and they troll the internet constantly, looking for places to deflect criticism of Jews or Israel, and apparently places to attack China.
This deflect and attack trait is certainly becoming more and more apparent about Richard. I mean numerous people asking him questions here in this thread and he seem to just deflect it and talk about something else. His anti-Chinese government views are known, that’s fine. But many people here agree on that he goes one step further with the kind of disgusting behavior towards people (mostly Chinese) who are ‘CCP apologists.’ But he save the worst for several Westerners who share this belief like Shaun Rein and Mark Anthony Jones. This kind of bigoted behavior of intolerance towards these ‘CCP apologists’ is apparent when he censors from some of these people by saying ‘it is my site.’
Ray says
@Augis
You obviously know very little of Israel. It is open secret that blonde Jewish people get the best treatment, followed by more Middle Eastern looking Israeli. Those Ethopian Jews are treated the worse.
And tell me how Arab Muslim citizens are treated in Israel?
perspectivehere says
@Larry / @Augis
I’m a bit uncomfortable from the invective being hurled back and forth. That said, I’m learning a lot from this discussion so I appreciate both of your contributions.
Larry Long’s initial post #24 is illuminating and mostly made factual assertions:
“Readers should be aware that the Kaifeng Jews were the agents, and often den managers, for the Jewish Sassoon family who had the exclusive distribution franchise for opium in China – given to them by the British government. It was the Kaifeng Jews the Sassoons felt they could trust to deliver and disperse the opium, since they felt it was entirely “a Jewish business” and didn’t want outsiders involved. China has not forgotten the devastation to their country from this. The UN’s estimate was that the imposition of opium set China’s development back by at least 75 years. I’m quite sure that if the general population of China knew the history of these Kaifeng Jews, they would be run out of the country. And I couldn’t blame them. To be honest, if I were these people, I would hide under a rock somewhere, and keep my mouth shut.”
When I read this, I was taken aback. I had heard none of this before. Well, as they say, the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know.
I’ve done a bit of research. Some of the sites make me uneasy (I get cautious when reading anything from “stormfront.org” but I take the view that just because a fact is propounded by a questionable source does not mean the fact is untrue, only that I should seek independent confirmation.) Some of the useful links I have found are these:
Reeking of fish and opium: Sassoon Docks
April 23, 2008
http://jugalbandi.info/2008/04/reeking-of-fish-and-opium-sassoon-docks/
From opium to outsourcing
India’s Tata Group has big plans for China. It won’t be the first time the company has set up shop there.
http://politics.salon.com/2007/04/20/tata/
http://www.legco.gov.hk/1886-87/h870325.pdf
Baghdadi Jews in Early Shanghai
by Maisie J. Meyer
http://www.sino-judaic.org/index.php?page=shanghai_history
“Baghdadi merchants, lured by the lucrative China trade, were undeterred by the arduous journey to Shanghai, which in the 1870s was an unsanitary, overcrowded city that experienced frequent outbreaks of cholera and typhoid. Sassoon employees generally went on to establish their own export and import businesses, mainly dealing in tea, silk, cotton and opium. In the early and mid-nineteenth century Jews filled numerous intermediary roles in the British controlled opium trade, which was made legal in China after the conclusion of the Second Opium in 1860. They made huge fortunes by exporting opium produced in India to China in exchange for tea and other commodities, which were then shipped to England. The damaging effects of the drug caused increasing moral pressure to be applied on the British government during the last quarter of the nineteenth century. When many English companies ceased dealing in opium, Baghdadi merchants legitimately continued the trade, which didn’t end until 1917, but became targets of trenchant criticism mainly from missionaries.
Baghdadi Jews were only a tiny minority in the vast ethnic milieu in which they settled, but they nonetheless participated in almost every aspect of business and professional activity. The end of the century saw Baghdadis take a high profile in banking, public utilities, the stock exchange, real estate markets and industrial development. Although they never numbered more than 1,000 they made a considerable impact on the growth of the treaty port. Marcella Crohn Rubel, an American visitor to Shanghai in 1925, recorded that half the business and residential areas were in the hands of Baghdadi Jews who had made their fortune in the Orient. (IM, October 9, 1925, 7).
The splendid landmark Cathay Hotel (now the Peace Hotel) was hailed as the “Claridges of the East” when it was completed in 1929. It was the pride of its owner Sir Victor Sassoon, grandson of Elias the founder of the community. The Sassoon, Ezra, Hardoon, Benjamin and Somekh buildings located in the heart of the city, to say nothing of their palatial homes, notably Sir Eli Kadoorie’s Marble Hall (now the Children’s Palace, an arts and craft centre), are today monuments to a once vibrant community particularly as their tombstones and cemeteries no longer exist. These entrepreneurs helped fashion Shanghai into a city which in 1932 was recognized as the fifth largest in the world. Israel’s Messenger, the journal of Shanghai Baghdadi Jews, labeled it “the Tel Abib [sic] of the Orient.” A small proportion, notably the Sassoons, Kadoories, Ezras, Shahmoons, Benjamins, Hayims and Josephs were conspicuously wealthy and rose to an unparalleled level of commercial achievement, but the majority of Baghdadi Jews were impoverished and found work in the great companies founded by fellow Jews.”
….
Interaction with the Kaifeng Jews
Life in the treaty port had the trappings of colonialism and … the British official attitude was to censure foreigners associating with the indigenous population. A rigid set of self-enforced rules demarcated social boundaries … In this context, the heroic efforts of Baghdadis to rescue the remnants of the Jewish community of Kaifeng … are remarkable.
Shanghai Jews collected funds to rebuild the Kaifeng synagogue, employ efficient teachers, mohalim to perform circumcisions, and shochatim to provide ritually slaughtered meat, in order to put Kaifeng Jews “upon a footing to do credit to our religion … let us now become parents and guardians to these poor brethren.” (Philip Cowan Papers (PCP) June 23, 1902) They offered to help them to come and settle in Shanghai where they and their families would be maintained. Some eight Kaifeng Jews came to Shanghai and were shown a good deal of Jewish life, witnessed Jewish ceremonies, frequented the synagogue and visited several Jewish homes. S. M. Perlmann, a scholarly merchant, records an interview with some of them whom he perceived to be of “low intellect and lacking education,” yet able to read the Bible, “thanks to instructions they had received at Shanghai.” (Perlmann 1913, 11) He was struck by the astonishment of the Chinese servants seeing these Chinese Jews treated with the same civility extended to other guests.
In time, however, the ardor of the Shanghai Baghdadi Jews cooled because of the inaccessibility of Kaifeng, inadequate resources, [and] the fact that nothing of lasting value was accomplished … The turning point in the commitment of Shanghai Jews to rescue the remnants of the Kaifeng community came in July 1937 at the start of the Sino-Japanese Undeclared War, when the community became absorbed with protecting their own interests and any vestige of concern they may have had for their Kaifeng coreligionists disappeared completely.”
http://www.sino-judaic.org/index.php?page=shanghai_history
**************************************
I wasn’t able to locate anything yet on the involvement of the Kaifeng Jews in the Sassoon distribution network, although it’s possible (probable) that the Sassoons and other Baghdadi Jews put the Kaifeng Jews they brought to Shanghai to work in their business.
I’m pretty astonished to read about the role of the Baghadai Jews in the opium trade. Previously I had thought it was primarily British and to a smaller extent American merchants.
I appreciate the fact that the author of the piece, Maisie Meyer, did not whitewash the history of the Baghdadi Jews in the opium trade, as she could have done, and no one would be the wiser.
(Note that this excerpt appears on the site of the Sino-Judaic Institute (The Sino-Judaic Institute (SJI) is a non-denominational, non-political, non-profit organization, founded in 1985 in Palo Alto, California by an international group of scholars and lay persons for the purpose of promoting understanding between Chinese and Jewish peoples and to encourage and develop their cooperation in matters of mutual historic and cultural interest.)
perspectivehere says
My research on the Kaifeng Jews also brought me to this fascinating character:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Isaac_Ezra
“Ezra was the managing director of Shanghai Hotels Limited from 1907, chairman of the Far Eastern Insurance Company, chairman of the Shanghai Gas Company, chairman of the China Motors Ltd. Additionally, he held large proprietary interests in, and was president and chairman of, the China Press and the Evening Star newspapers.
In 1913 Ezra was elected the first president of the Shanghai Opium Combine. At the same time Ezra was leading the legal cartel, he was also organising an illegal underground opium smuggling and distribution network, involving his younger brothers, twins Isaac Isaac Ezra and Judah Isaac Ezra, and some Chinese associates. When it was exposed, Ezra was granted immunity from prosecution by testifying against Paul Yip, his Chinese partner, who received an 18-month prison sentence.
In 1917 Ezra purchased The China Press newspaper from its founder, American journalist Thomas Franklin Fairfax Millard.
Social activities
Ezra’s relationship to the Sassoon family by marriage, and his immense wealth allowed him both social standing and political position. His own home on Joffre Road (now Huaihai Lu) in the French concession was an indicator of his wealth. According to Paul French, “Ezra was extremely rich and lived in considerable style in the Ezra mansion” with “Louis XV furniture throughout, a ballroom for 150 dancers, a music room to seat an audience of 80 in comfort, and elegantly designed French windows giving out on to 25 acres (10 ha) of gardens.”
In 1900, Ezra also helped organise and fund the Society for the Rescue of the Chinese Jews, which aimed at restoring Kaifeng Jews to orthodox Judaism. Ezra was the president of the Shanghai Zionist Association from its founding in 1903. Ezra was the vice-president of the Jewish Communal organisation of China, and vice-president of the Synagogue.
Ezra was an active member and past Master of the Lodge Saltoun, and attained the highest degrees in freemasonry. Ezra was a member of the Shanghai Club; the Shanghai Race Club; the Masonic Club; and the Cercle Sportif Francais.
From 1912 to 1918, Ezra was one of the nine-member Shanghai Municipal Council that administered the International Settlement. Despite an obvious conflict of interest in relation to his opium business, Ezra refused to resign from the Council. In 1919 Ezra resigned from public life because of a gambling scandal involving his brother, Judah, who had paid the favourite team to lose in a baseball tournament in 1918.
Ezra’s premature death accelerated the decline of the family’s prestige and wealth. According to Douglas Valentine, “Left to their own devices, the degenerate Ezra brothers squandered the family fortune and by the mid-1920s had decided to trafficking in illicit drugs.
After 1925 Judah and Isaac both moved to San Francisco, where they were among the very first to import narcotics from Asia to the United States. The Ezra brothers formed a connection with Italian Mafiosi Antone “Black Tony” Parmiagni, Charles “Lucky” Luciano and Frank Costello, Jewish gangster Meyer Lansky, and with Ye Ching Ho (Pinyin: Ye Qinghe), also known as Paul Yip (or Paul Yi), an agent of Chiang Kai-Shek’s Kuomintang and with the approval of Chiang’s Nationalist government, “which relied on opium profits for its survival”.
In May 1933 the Ezra brothers were arrested in California for distributing narcotics on the West Coast of the United States. Despite their guilty pleas and co-operation with authorities in testifying against their confederates, they were fined $12,000 each and were imprisoned for twelve years, thus “bringing their family’s fortunes to an abrupt and dramatic conclusion.” After their release from prison, the Ezra brothers were deported.”
********************************************
Opium smuggling. Kaifeng Jews. Masons. Newspaper ownership. Baseball gambling scandal. Italian mafiosi. Lucky Luciano. Meyer Lansky. KMT.
Wow.
richard says
Pug, I answer every question. No one’s answered mine: where is the racism on my site? There is absolutely none.
Up above a commenter writes, “You obviously know very little of Israel. It is open secret that blonde Jewish people get the best treatment, followed by more Middle Eastern looking Israeli…”
This is simply deranged and offensive and utterly, utterly false. I have been to Israel. Have you?
richard says
@raventhorn
I want everyone to go see Dr. Thorn’s shocking example — the only example he can find — of racism on my site. Shocking! Go now and read it. Isn’t it terrible? Never mind that I didn’t even say it; it’s something a commenter said, not me, and it’s not even racist — unlike the appalling anti-Semitism that permeates this thread.
if that’s the best you can do to prove my site is racist, you don’t really have much evidence, don’t you think? Can you do better than that?
Augis says
I will try to answer your question.
Arab Muslim citizens of Israel have exactly the same rights and duties as any other citizens of Israel.
There is only one exception. Arab Muslims are not required to serve in the Israeli army. Not required doesn’t mean that they are not allowed. If they want to serve in the army – they can do it.
Now, I just quoted a dry law. “What about life examples?” – you might ask.
Well… I didn’t have a lot of interaction with Arab Muslims in Israel, But here are few that I had.
First – a girl at my current work who sits in the next room. She is Arab Muslim. I am not a friend of hers – just see her every day and say “Hi”. And know that she is very attractive girl – huh. She speaks in Hebrew with that characteristic Arabic accent – very soft and cute. I feel that she is happy in our company and nothing in her behavior implies that she feels oppressed.
Second – a guy from my previous work. Arab Muslim. Actually, we happened to be paired together to go for support of the company’s American site in Dallas for 3 weeks. It was wonderful time! Because we exactly came during Christmas/New Year period – not much work; so we mainly had a lot of fun together exploring Dallas and its suburbs. It was actually very convenient that he was Muslim… because he didn’t drink alcohol. So, I knew that even if I drink in the bar he will be sober and able to drive back to the hotel. Oh, should I mention that he was also a happy guy without any oppression feelings?
What else?
Well, I actually live in the city with mixed Arab-Jewish population. As any form of such co-existence it brings conveniences and incoveniences. For example, sometimes I wake up at 4 a.m. because they start the morning prayer and muezzim sing into loudspeakers. I just silently curse, hug my Chinese wife and fall asleep again.
On the other hand, it’s a blessing that when on Saturday all stores in the neighborhood are closed (because Jews don’t work on Saturdays) – I can go to a store which is run by an Arab guy and buy some products 🙂 . Not much interaction between us – Just “Hello” “Hello” and “Happy holiday” if this is his or my holiday.
***
Now, I don’t know how Israeli Arabs feel about Palestine. I assume that they have quite mixed and complicated feelings. And I can understand them. But I can tell you one thing: when time comes and Palestine becomes an independent state – if any of Israeli Arabs would like to change their citizenship from Israeli to Palestinian, nobody will say “No” to them.
However, I can give you a guarantee – 99% of Israeli Arabs will prefer to stay Israeli citizens 😉
And that says it all about the treatment of Arab Muslims in Israel.
I actually think that this is an example that the author of this post can easily relate to. I am sure that being Chinese American he has a lot of sympathy to China. But I suspect that he will not agree to give up his US citizenship for the citizenship of China.
***
Just when I was finishing this reply, my Arab female colleague passed down the corridor. Uh huh, she is really pretty 🙂
Augis says
Yes, he surely could do better than that. He must learn from the author of this post who seems to be professed in tearing phrases out of the context.
For example, he could take the referenced comment, cut off the words “China is doubly cursed”, put “cursed” in bold text. Then – since he doesn’t seem to be too scrupulous in playing with facts, he might add an exclamation mark and some wicked emoticon.
And then conclude it with a sentence – “This is just one of many racist examples in your racist site”
🙂
raventhorn says
Who said it was the ONLY example?! Just ONE example I found in less than 1 minute on your site.
It’s “not even racist”?? So you are condoning his comment about Chinese culture and language, and “limited” in thoughts??
I rest my case, I don’t think I need to go much further than your current and self-evident state of self-denial.
“appalling anti-Semitism”? show me More than your 1 example. I don’t recall writing anything anti-Semitic. 🙂
raventhorn says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Cultural_antisemitism
“Cultural antisemitism
Louis Harap defines cultural antisemitism as “that species of anti-Semitism that charges the Jews with corrupting a given culture and attempting to supplant or succeeding in supplanting the preferred culture with a uniform, crude, “Jewish” culture.[31]”
Sounds similar to what some have said about Chinese culture, ie. Monolithic, Yellow-Peril, thought-limiting, make others “kowtow”.
raventhorn says
Come to think of it,
the whole theme of China conducting “cultural genocide” in Tibet is literally copied verbatim from “Cultural antisemitism” then applied to Chinese culture.
I guess all that Nazi Aryan Myth rubbed off on a few TGIE.
*BTW, that is anti-Chinese RACISM, because it was the historical RACIST narrative to denigrate Chinese people by “Cultural anti-Chinese” propaganda, For example, well documented RACIST comments written in US Supreme Court decision, Chae Chan Ping v. United States.
The Chinese, the Court explained, “remained strangers in the land, residing apart by themselves, and adhering to the customs and usages of their own country. It seemed impossible for them to assimilate with our people, or to make any changes in their habits or modes of living.”
IE. RACIST stereotypes based upon Cultural stereotypes.
Augis says
I know very little about Israel? Hahaha
Ray, I have lived in Israel for 15 years. So, next time when you decide to troll – try harder.
I have to admit, however, that your trolling is rather cute and can compete only with your ignorance.
During the break I showed this site to my colleagues.
We had some good laughs and arrived to the following conclusion – “It’s blessing for Israel and Jews to have such kind of haters as you, guys. Opinionated and loud, but not quite clever.”
Sancta simplicitas… I root for you guys and wish you continue disseminating your ridiculous ideas. 😉
Good luck!
perspectivehere says
@Richard
See http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/whiteness08.htm
Tim Wise, Race to Our Credit: Denial Privilege and Life as a Majority (January 09, 2005)
“Sometimes it can be difficult, having a conversation with those whose political views are so diametrically opposed to one’s own.
But even more challenging, is having a discussion with someone who simply refuses to accept even the most basic elements of your worldview. At that point, disagreement is less about the specifics of one or another policy option, and more about the nature of social reality itself.”
******************************************************
Also See:
Tim Wise on White Privilege
Racism, White Denial & the Costs of Inequality
http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=137
Video is 9 minutes 30 seconds.
“In this spellbinding lecture, the author of White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son offers a unique, inside-out view of race and racism in America. Expertly overcoming the defensiveness that often surrounds these issues, Wise provides a non-confrontational explanation of white privilege and the damage it does not only to people of color, but to white people as well. This is an invaluable classroom resource: an ideal introduction to the social construction of racial identities, and a critical new tool for exploring the often invoked – but seldom explained – concept of white privilege.”
Low resolution preview here (57 minutes 38 seconds):
http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=137&template=PDGCommTemplates/HTN/Item_Preview.html
*********************************************
Other good sites to learn about white privilege:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege
Ray says
You are the one trolling on this site. Your denial is also very telling.
Ray says
@Augis
Here’s a real Israel hate site:
http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm
And here’s another China’s hate site:
http://chinashmina.com/
Augis says
You say that ChinaShmina is a China hate site? And you say that Peking Duck is a China hate site?
And also that this blog is NOT Israel hate site?
Well, let’s make a super-easy test to expose the truth.
Richard in one of comments said that he loves China and would want to go back to live in China.
I in my turn can say that I love China and that I can name at least 10 reasons why I love China!
Now, I am asking any of the authors of this blog a simple question: “Can you name me just 5 reasons why you love Israel?”
I saw enough statements on this site why one should hate Israel. And this is why I call this site Israel hate site.
But you say that you just provide the objective information. And also claim to know Israel ( 🙂 ).
OK, so if this site is objective – the information should be balanced. And you shouldn’t find it difficult to name 5 reasons why you love Israel…
Or is it too hard for you? Is your attitude to Israel hatred only? Or maybe you don’t know Israel enough?
What will you say on that, oh so objective authors of this blog? 😉
Game, set, match? huh…
Charles Liu says
Augis, do you find PKD’s information on China to be balanced? I for one do not, as his agenda is plainly evident, and when I presented an alternative opinion I was selectively targeted (as others have also experienced) for censorship.
Feel free to check HH site archive, I don’t recall any other threads about Israel/Palestine until very recently.
BTW you conveniently showed up. I once read somewhere that Israeli foreign ministry had instructed embassies to recruit netters to help “sanitize” Israel’s online image.
Please be clear as to how you came about this site, because your behavior seem to fit the bill. I suspect you probably wouldn’t stick around, when HH moves on to the usual non-Israel/Palestine topics.
Ray says
@Augis
I love Israel, that’s why I want the best for Israel. Anyway, the racism issue is real in many countries, Israel and China included. You just try to pretend it doesn’t exist. The issues raised by me are told by a Jewish friend of mine who served in the IDF.
We are just trying to let you know that what it feel’s like when the boot is on another foot. For example, if I start a blog that’s named kosherpiglet and write similar views to articles on your blog, how would you feel?
And for those who say there is no biased in the original article, replace the word China/Chinese with Israel/Jew and reread it. Then tell me you feel there is nothing wrong with it.
Of all the comments on this thread, I think Larry Long is the only one to hit below the belt. But what do you want us to do? Censor him?
Shalom/Salam
melektaus says
I haven’t been here long but I haven’t seen any poster that was biased against Israel in the anti-Semitic sense. I know I certainly am not. So it seems some people are looking for boogeymen and Nazis where there are none. many Jews are extra sensitive because the ADL and other Jewish orgs have taught them that there is a possible holocaust at any moment, anywhere in the world. This kind of attitude within many Jews in the west and Israel is best shown in the film Defamation by an Israeli film-maker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_(film)
I am very critical of Israeli actions in the Middle East as with other posters and even many Israelis are critical of their government’s policies in the Middle East but that doesn’t make me or them biased against Israel in any way. I support Israel’s right to exist as with any nation’s right to do so. I can also sympathize with their terrorism problems as many Chinese can. Many Chinese also know that many Israelis like China and the Chinese people as is my experience with them. China is also a major economic partner to Israel. So this charge of being an Israel hate site or even antisemitism is ridiculous. It’s a tactic usually deployed against anyone critical against Israeli policies including those against Jews such as Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein Legit criticism is not hate. The people here also criticize Chinese people as the recent post on the toddler who had been run over shows. Posts on Chinese policies have also been criticized here. Grow up.
Larry Long says
Re: Internet Trolling
The mass media don’t control the internet, the blogs, comment boards, social media and private websites. So there is a huge organised army that really does troll the internet to locate and mitigate against any unfavorable comments on Israel or the Jews generally.
I have copied below a few exerpts from the UK Guardian about the scope and extent of this. It exists officially and unofficially, through the Israel embassies and consulates, the Jewish ADL, AIPAC, all Jewish organisations. There are huge campus-directed organisations, everything, stuff you would never imagine.
There was a big spat in the media a month or so back when Yale University decided to cancel its classes on “anti-Semitism” for lack of interest, and AIPAC and one other Jewish organisation screamed that Yale would “never get another penny from any Jew” for being “so racist and hateful”. It seems the condition for receiving scholarship and grant money was tied to promoting Israeli and Jewish policies in classroom courses – the Israeli view of Palestine, the propositions that any negative comment about Israel was “anti-Semitic Nazi Jew-hating”, etc.
Read on. If you haven’t heard of Hasbara, try to remember the name. It’s a worldwide “get out there and protect the image of Jews and Israel” campaign.
UK Guardian
“Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s foreign minister, has ordered its embassies in 10 European countries, including the UK, each to recruit 1,000 members of the public to act as advocates for its policies in a new public relations offensive aimed at improving Israel’s standing in Europe.
They have been instructed to identify 1,000 people by mid-January to act as “allies” to Israel. One source described them as “friends who are willing not just to receive (Jewish) messages but to actively promote these messages”. These individuals – likely to be drawn from Jewish or Christian activists, academics, journalists and students – will be briefed regularly by Israeli officials and encouraged to speak up for Israel at public meetings or write letters or articles for the press.
The Israeli government, military and various embassies are adept at using social media such as Twitter, Facebook and YouTube to promote material. Organisations such as Bicom, the Britain Israel Communications Research Centre, in the UK and the Israel Project in the US, which describe themselves as independent, are dedicated to promoting Israeli policies.”
HASBARA SPAM ALERT
Richard Silverstein guardian.co.uk, Friday 9 January 2009 11.05 GMT
A reader of my blog has received the following email which documents both the efforts and the agency that originated them. The solicitation to become a pro-Israel “media volunteer” also includes a list of media links which the ministry would like addressed by pro-Israel comments:
“Dear friends,
We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it’s a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.
I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you’re up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets.
If you wish to participate, please respond to this email.”
My friend did so and received this official communique from the ministry with talking points about Operation Cast Lead which s/he was to use in her/his propaganda efforts. Among the links was was a Peter Beaumont Cif piece. The following were identified as “target sites”: the Times, the Guardian, Sky News, BBC, Yahoo!News, Huffington Post, and the Dutch Telegraaf. Also targeted were other media sites in Dutch, Spanish, German and French considered critical of the invasion.
Here the foreign ministry’s coordinator describes a meeting he attended at the government’s offical office:
“Hi all,
I had a meeting in the ministry of foreign affairs today, and was very happy to hear that their metrics show that Israel’s position in the internet is getting better every day. It means that you’re doing a good job! MFA are concerned with the biased public opinion in Europe. So please focus your efforts on European media.
What can you do to help?
– Identify internet battle-grounds in different languages, and let me know
– Comment/post/vote in the listed links and others; you can use the material attached below
– Write letters to authors and editors. Identify yourself as a local resident
– Have your friends join this activity”
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hasbara
Hasbara Campus Manual
A Hasbara manual for Jewish students to use on US univesity campuses is now available online[2]. A summary of the techniques is provided from page 31 onwards:
“Propaganda is used by those who want to communicate in ways that engage the emotions and downplay rationality, in an attempt to promote a certain message.”
The manual goes on to describe seven propaganda techniques: (quote)
1.Name calling: through the careful use of words, then name calling technique links a person or an idea to a negative symbol.
2.Glittering generality: Simply put, glittering generality is name calling in reverse. Instead of trying to attach negative meanings to ideas or people, glittering generalities use positive phrases, which the audience are attached to, in order to lend positive image to things. Words such as “freedom”, “civilization”,…
3.Transfer: Transfer involves taking some of the prestige and authority of one concept and applying it to another. For example, a speaker might decide to speak in front of a United Nations flag, in an attempt to gain legitimacy for himself or his idea.
4.Testimonial: Testimonial means enlisting the support of somebody admired or famous to endorse and ideal or campaign.
5.Plain folks: The plain folks technique attempts to convince the listener that the speaker is a ‘regular guy’, who is trust-worthy because the are like ‘you or me’.
6.Fear: Stressing that ignoring the message will likely lead to war, terrorism[3]
7.Bandwagon: Suggest that the stated position is mainstream and use polls to suggest this. [4]
Other hasbara efforts (quote)
Nation Branding
The Israeli government has contracted with several international PR companies to improve its image in the US, Europe and Canada. In the UK, Acanchi was hired to work on Israel’s nation branding[5]. Saatchi and Saatchi acknowledged that it works with the Israelis free of charge on the re-branding effort.[6] Haaretz also revealed that it attempted to hire a Norwegian PR company for the same purposes.
pug_ster says
@Larry Long
You know a funny thing happened to me while I was watching a youtube video the other day, and an ad pop up on the lower screen said “Tell the world that you are in the side of Israel.” or something like that. Must’ve another hasbara effort right there.
Augis says
@Charles Liu
Simple.
I am preparing a post on my own site. It will be about the best China blogs in different categories. You can check it out today. For this reason I was just going through all blog directories aggregating China-related blogs + checking out blogrolls.
To HiddenHarmonies I came through someone’s blogroll, although sooner or later I would anyway stumble upon it through ChinaBlogList or ChinaBlogNetwork.
I FOR SURE would stick around Hidden Harmonies on China-related topics – just like I do it on ChinaSmack, Shanghaiist, HaoHaoReport and just like ALL my submissions to REDDIT are related to China and China only!
***
As for government hiring commenters to clear up the image of their country – the answer is “No” – I am not “Wu Mao” 🙂 .
Augis says
You see? It’s good you brought the example of the toddler hit by vehicle.
Because on my YouTube channel I posted that video along with English translation.
Now, let me tell you, that every day I remove A LOT of anti-Chinese comments on that thread. You know why? Because I am sensitive about all kind of racism and not only antisemitism. Something you, guys, should learn from me.
It’s absolutely clear that Larry Long crossed the line and in any respectable site that calls itself objective, he should be censored.
***
And – as I expected – neither of you was able to name 5 reasons “Why I love Israel”. It’s easy to talk, but hard to prove. I – unlike you, guys – firmly stand behind my words. I am ready to name 10 reasons why I love China because I really do (even if in my blog I poke fun at it sometimes). And I am sure that Richard can do the same.
As for Ray and Melektaus, all you said so far was “I love Israel”. No, I don’t believe you. Give me 5 reasons – only half of what I can name for China. Then I will believe what you are saying.
I am not saying what kind of posts you should write. If the only aspect of Israel which interests you is Israel-Palestine conflict – go ahead and write about it (just like I don’t care about sites which talk exceptionally about Falun Gong persecution in China because it doesn’t interest me that much and after learning about this topic one time I don’t read them).
You see? Someone posted here previously that China should be more active in negotiations of the Israeli-Palestine conflict…
Really? Wow, that’s so good! OK, let’s see if Chinese people who write these things are knowledgeable about Israel and are not one-sided. So, here I am – Israeli – stretching out my hand and waiting to see if you are ready to shake it.
Who of this blog’s authors is up for the challenge? 5 reasons “Why I love Israel”. Anyone?
Augis says
Uh huh.
Call it luck, call it coincidence. But as I continued browsing through the different blogs about CHINA, I stumbled upon this
http://www.chinadroll.kityingstef.net/
The author (Cecilie) mainly writes about China, but just like you – for some reason also posts about Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I learned about it just because she carelessly embedded a video in one of her earlier posts with the auto-play option. So, when you open her homepage, it starts playing. But just scroll few posts down and you will see the video itself.
And what is this video about? Haha – I swear I wasn’t looking for that on purpose. It’s so funny, however 🙂
Just when you guys, mentioned about Israeli propaganda, this video shows the Palestinian propaganda in action. I actually myself wanted to write about it in my previous reply but was too lazy to engage in the endless debates. However, one video is worth thousand of words 😉
pug_ster says
@Augis
Now, let me tell you, that every day I remove A LOT of anti-Chinese comments on that thread. You know why? Because I am sensitive about all kind of racism and not only antisemitism. Something you, guys, should learn from me.
It’s absolutely clear that Larry Long crossed the line and in any respectable site that calls itself objective, he should be censored.
Learn what from you? Calling people “wumaos?” Maybe you didn’t learn and one of the moderators should remove your comments. Why don’t you refute Larry Long’s statements here instead of whining about his site? Also, your site is not exactly respectable or objective either, maybe one of the moderators should censor you?
Ray says
@Augis
Nobody here fell for your baiting of 5 reasons why I love Isreal. Don’t you think that is a bit childish? There is only 5 reason to love “He who wrestles with God”? It should be at least 500 or even 5000 reasons. So nobody have the time to play this game. And in case you don’t know in order to not show biased we would have to come up with reason to love Palestine too. So although I agree it is a fun game to play, we just don’t have time for it.
The problem I have with you is you like to make blanket statement before all facts are in. And you are so quick to accuse others of being stupid without even really going through this site and understand what it is about. I am actually new here (discovered it only in June 2011), it took me a few weeks hundred of hours to read through it to understand it.
Below is my respond to the Israel-Palestine issue. Feel free to comment.
https://hiddenharmonies.org/2011/10/the-israel-palestine-conflict-a-call-for-peace/#comment-45382
Charles Liu says
@Augis
“I FOR SURE would stick around Hidden Harmonies on China-related topics”
Welcome, my apologies.
Augis says
Was it a game or not, it doesn’t matter – anyway you lost 🙂 You failed to pass a simple test for lousiness.
Saying you had no time? Hahaha – what childish lies.
You obviously had time to write the reply longer than a list of 5 sentences explaining “Why I love Israel”. And I don’t care if you wanted to balance it by adding another 5 reasons “Why I love Palestine”.
You are obviously one-sided and not objective. But this is not the worst thing. The worst thing is that you are a coward who cannot say the truth, instead hiding behind denial and lengthy rationalizations. Just stand up and say the truth that you hate Israel. You would at least earn some respect.
Augis says
Apologies accepted. See me soon here again.
But right now I have to work on the post for my blog ChinaShmina – I am terribly behind the schedule.
Hidden Harmonies, by the way, will be mentioned in the upcoming post 😉
melektaus says
@Augis
Again with your severe reading difficulties. I never said I love Israel. You said that, not me. I said I support Israel’s right to exist and sympathize with some of its problems like many Chinese. That doesn’t mean I “love” it. I hope it thrives and becomes a just society like I hope for all societies. But does that mean I “love” it? I never even been there and have no ties to it so why would I love it? Now that doesn’t mean I hate it either. I do hate many Israeli policies in the Middle East and think Israel is one of the worst human rights abusers in the world. But I have nothing against the people as a whole nor the state, as such.
I am concerned about your serious reading difficulties. I worked with students with learning difficulties and I think you have one of these problems (maybe dyslexia). I hope your lack of ability to read basic sentences at the 7th grade reading level is not a reflection on Israel’s (or whatever country you grew up in) education system. That would be sad.
Augis says
It was you who in the composed post showed the close-to-zero ability of understanding and interpreting the written text.
I assume that English is not your first language, right? Otherwise it would be too sad. Although I wouldn’t generalize, because possibly your case is just an individual failure.
But without regard whether English is your first language or not, I can assure that with such severe malfunctioning of your logical thinking – you would fail the entrance tests to any Israeli university.
Ray says
You have proven to be an immature kid, just like your blog. What exactly are you doing here anyway? Generating hate for yourself and Israel. You started a game that nobody want to play and declared yourself a winner, very smart.
You can’t come up with a single refutation to the points I have given while you run rings around questions I have thrown to you. Sorry, calling names on the internet doesn’t win you any discussion. Everybody who read the comments will know what kind of level you are at, which is pretty low.
And please don’t bother coming back here. I decide what kind of answers I want to give and how to manage my time. The truth is China will support the founding of the Palestinian state which by your defination is hate mongering.
I am glad you continually showed your true colour here. If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Ray says
Proper and correct Englsih should be:
It was you who in the composed post showed close-to-zero ability of understanding and interpreting the written text. (Note: No “the”)
I assume English is not your first language, right? Otherwise it would be too sad. Although I wouldn’t generalize, because probably your case is just an individual failure. (Note: No “that”; possibly should be probably)
But without regard to whether English is your first language, I can assure that with such severe malfunctioning of your thinking logic – you would fail the entrance tests to any Israeli university.
(Note: “to” is needed ;”or not” not required, redundancy; logical thinking should be thinking logic)
The above statement makes more sense describing the fellow named Augis.
Ray says
@Ray
Should be: I assume that English is not your first language, right?
melektaus says
@Augis
Yes, as a matter fact English is my second language. That is all the more surprising seeing that I am far more competent than you at reading and writing. Let the posts speak for themselves…
Augis says
What made you think that I am against Palestinian state? It seems that your judgments are plagued with false assumptions. Not quite surprising.
And do me a favor – before correcting my English, please proofread your own comments. I hope that you will yourself find the mistake you made in the quote above. I will leave it for you as a homework.
🙂
melektaus says
I said “I hope” that augis’s reading difficulties are not reflective of a failure of Israel’s education system. Apparently, the data suggests that they are.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/34/60/46619703.pdf
Israel is ranked pretty low (36 out of 64) on the international PISA reading skills list, far behind Chinese regions such as Shanghai (ranked #1), Hong Kong (#4) and Singapore (#5).
I hope they will improve.
Augis says
Hmm… Interesting findings.
I guess then that something mysterious and terrible happens in the period when Chinese schoolchildren further their studies.
Because if you compare the number of innovations made by Israeli scientists with those made by their colleagues from China – the comparison is definitely not in the favor of the Middle Kingdom.
And if we go higher and check the number of Nobel Prize winners, the situation is even sadder. I actually know only one Nobel Prize winner from China. Could you remind me, please, where he is now by the way? 😉
I hope China will improve (and Liu Xiaobo will be released)
🙂
melektaus says
Well, I don’t know what Nobel winning has to do with reading ability as a nation (since you cannot read at the 7th grade reading level, it’s no surprise that you conflate the two).
But if you’re going to compare, China has 12 Nobel winners, Israel, 10….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
The situation is indeed, sad.
😉
Augis says
Are you counting also the Nobel Prize winners from Taiwan, dude? And also those who deflected to the US and don’t want to live in PRC?
Yeah, yeah… hahaha.
And even if it WOULD be 12 – then for 1.3 billions that is pretty pathetic.
So – right – you possibly should stick to the 7th grade level.
😉
melektaus says
And if you want to compare patents (both issued and in force) between China and Israel (though this has nothing to do with Israel problems with educating people like augis to read basic sentences) look here.
China is ranked 4th and 5th in number of patents and patents in force and that ranking is expected to grow exponentially in the next few years. Israel is,…sadly not even on the list of top 20 nations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_patents
🙂
melektaus says
@Augis
Reading lesson for augis:
Who has more Nobel winners?
a. China
b. Israel
c. augis can’t read
d. both a and c
The correct answer is both a and c.
BTW, Israel’s Nobel winners counted people who had been born and raised outside of Israel such as Peres, Aumann, Begin, Agnon, and Hershko.
melektaus says
Now augis’s difficulties may not be due to his country’s education system. IQ is also related to reading ability.
And to piss off augis even more, what is the average IQ for Chinese and Israelis?
Answer: The top two nations with highest IQ are Chinese states such as Hong Kong (108) and Singapore (108). Israel is sadly, ranked 41st with a disapointing average IQ of 95.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations#National_IQ_estimates
Disappointing! 😉
melektaus says
You still haven’t answered the question:
Who has more Nobel winners?
a. China
b. Israel
c. augis can’t read
d. both a and c
Ray says
http://israeljewishnews.blogspot.com/2008/05/sephardim-face-old-fashioned.html
Discrimination in Education – Israel 2008
Ethnic discrimination has been a continual struggle for Sephardim in Israeli society since the establishment of the State of Israel. Upon arrival from their countries of origin, Sephardic Jews were categorized as “Mizrahim,” (“Easterners”, or Jews from Arab or Muslim countries) a social and cultural category that was invented just for them at that time. However, though established in the past, this category is still meaningful sixty years later.
Mizrahim in Israel continue to suffer from structural injustices. Statistics prove they have a high unemployment rate, comprise a disproportionate percentage of Israel’s prison and social welfare populations, and suffer substantial underachievement in education. These deficiencies have held steady or even increased over Israel’s six decades of statehood. (See Oren Yiftachel, Nation-Building or Ethnic Fragmentation? Ashkenazim, Mizrahim and Arabs in the Israeli Frontier, 1 Space and Polity 2, 149-169 (1997); Hubert Lu-Yon and Rachel Kalush: Housing in Israel: Policy and Inequality (1994). Although Mizrahim today comprise a larger share of formally educated society, recent research indicates that the gap itself between Mizrahim and Ashkenazim in education has grown in the last decades. See Momi Dahan, He is (Not) Entitled – Has the Gap in Education Narrowed? in Education and Social Justice in Israel – On Equal Opportunities in Education 19 (Samuel Shay et al, 2003).)
If this is going to become a Chinese vs Jewish competiton. I think we should make it one where how we can make both country and society better.
Augis says
Changing society for better? Competition?
Uh huh 🙂 Don’t fool yourself. The checklist of changes required for the Chinese society is definitely much much longer.
However, unlike your fellow blogger melektaus I am not going to quote external internet sources (for example, some report on the state of human rights in China) to prove my point.
I am sure you know it yourself. Well, at least you should know, if you are a true patriot of China who wants his country to be a better place.
Ray says
@Augis
Do you know that during Abraham’s time the Jewish people and Chinese people are probably about equal in number? How come China’s today have the largest population and is the 3rd largest country in the world while Israel is so small? And melektaus actually shouldn’t answer you because if two civilizations are to compete it is to use the timespan of over five thousands years. You want to compare contribution to humanity of this two society? And China simply has to use HK or Shanghai as comparison to Israel to beat it in human development index.
Anyway, my posts about racism in Israel is to make you aware that people know what is going on in Israel too. Read your eralier responses, you simply indulged in bare denial. China is also ahead because we know minority will be disadvantaged so minority have special privilages in China. That’s why China can grow to be the China today. Israel does not accord any privilage to its minority.
Remember that when you try to play the human rights card again.
melektaus says
I don’t know how augis steered this conversation to a Chinese vs Jews debate. I guess if you have severe learning difficulties as augis does it is easy to keep conflating different issues. This is coupled with many Israelis hyper-sensitivity and insecurity complexes which results in turning everything into pissing contests. 😉
Augis says
I don’t know how the post about Kaifeng Jews steered to Israel vs. Palestine much before I showed up here.
And, of course, I don’t understand how one could interpret the referenced article as having any kind of anti-Chinese sentiments.
Well, possibly it can be explained by a well-known sensitivity of Chinese people to any kind of criticism 😉
And the second possible explanation is the author’s inability to concentrate and think a little bit.
I heard, however, that Ritalin can help adults. So, if melektaus hasn’t been diagnosed in his childhood, it’s not all lost – he can still try the treatment 🙂
Augis says
Minority rights in China?
Well… possibly it is the discord between the written laws and the things that actually happen in China that make it a country with such big problems.
You definitely cannot “cover” the card of human rights by quoting the laws which are not respected.
And this IS the good example of denial.
melektaus says
Let me help you since you have dyslexia. The Palestine issue was mentioned in the original article because many people helped by Shavei Israel are sent to occupied Palestine. You then objected but since I showed the sources for that claim, you have since remained silent.
I see that because of your functional illiteracy and memory problems, you need to be reminded often of what has transpired. You are welcome for the reminder and clarification.
Ray says
Well, if you look at augis’s cut and paste site, you can pretty much understand his view of China. The condescending tones he takes, the words he used etc. It is obvious he is someone who harbour a superiority complex. Can you imagine we start a site like his on Israel, he will be jumping up and down and crying foul. His site basically paint China as the others but he would not admit it. That’s why he challenge you to a China vs Israel competition.
Charles Liu says
Look, even the Hare Krishna is in China:
http://audio.iskcondesiretree.info/index.php?q=f&f=%2F06_-_More%2F08_-_ISKCON_China
Don’t tell me there’s no religious freedom in China. I found this link after getting some info about Diwali. To see more about ISKCON here’s the Chinese search:
http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%D2%E6%CA%C0%BF%B5+%CA%A5%C5%C1%B2%BC%C5%C1
dr.gerbs says
@Augis
I have lived in Israel and these are my observations regarding hierarchy. Ashkenazi Jews are more respected because they are wealthier and live in the better parts of cities (i.e. Tel Aviv). Russian and Ukrainian Jews who immigrated to Israel following the fall of the Soviet Union are next but viewed with certain social stigmas. Middle Eastern and Moroccan Jews (i.e. darker skin and curly hair) are viewed lower on the social ladder followed by black Jews being viewed as lowest. Orthodox Jews on the other hand view themselves above all other Jews. In the context of this thread, it will be interesting to see where the Kaifeng Jews fit in but my guess is at the bottom of the social ladder along with the migrant workers from Thailand and the Philippines.
dr.gerbs says
I have lived in Israel and these are my observations regarding hierarchy. Ashkenazi Jews are more respected because they are wealthier and live in the better parts of cities (i.e. Tel Aviv). Russian and Ukrainian Jews who immigrated to Israel following the fall of the Soviet Union are next but viewed with certain social stigmas. Middle Eastern and Moroccan Jews (i.e. darker skin and curly hair) are viewed lower on the social ladder followed by black Jews being viewed as lowest. Orthodox Jews (i.e. Hasidic Jews) on the other hand view themselves above all other Jews. In the context of this thread, it will be interesting to see where the Kaifeng Jews fit in but my guess is at the bottom of the social ladder along with the migrant workers from Thailand and the Philippines.