Dan Harris over at China Law Blog made a bold post today relaying complaints students at the University of Washington have for their fellow international students from Mainland China. He qualified that the complaints were directed at students from China and not of students with Chinese ethnicity. He also qualified the students whom he got the complaints were “sophisticated, intelligent, and well-traveled.”
In this post, I’d like to address those complaints. Before I get into it though, I’d like to make several observations.
First of all, I believe Harris did this with sincerity, and as he said in his article, he hopes for a constructive discussion and asked what can be done about the situation. After reading the complaints, I think something ought to be done too. Those complaints are genuine (rightfully or wrongfully) – and I believe the situation can be improved.
Secondly, I think this is one of the posts symptomatic of the English language ‘China’ blogs that is often plagued by the dominant narratives in American mainstream thinking. America is often arrogant and doesn’t seem to be able to find fault within itself.
Harris could have found a few Mainland Chinese students and get their take. Why doesn’t Harris have some Mainland Chinese students at University of Washington who he can readily talk to as he did others – after-all, his firm specializes in doing business in China. You’d expect his firm smart enough to have Mainland Chinese students who understands Chinese law and studying international law (or something related) at University of Washington to intern for his firm. Without balance from the Mainland Chinese students perspective, the article panders to the nasty views in America towards ‘China.’ The complaints read a lot like the China bashing that exists in the mainstream American press; ignorant, some truths, and some lies.
In fact, he later says he observes these complaints not only in the U.S. but also in the U.K. and Australia. What do I make of that? I guess bogeyman ‘China’ is most prevalent in the Anglo-saxon countries?
So, with an eye towards constructively improving the situation at University of Washington, this is my take:
“They don’t come here to learn. They just come here for the grades.” I have heard this one at least a half dozen times.
One should ask how do you get the grades without the learning? I think a ‘better’ criticism would be they are too intensely after good grades. These students parents having to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars (incredible sums by Chinese standards), they expect their kids to have learned something. The only way to show that is by having good grades.
Robert Compton in his “2 Million Minutes” film in fact tries to argue why the pursuit of academics need to happen more in America. There is a huge segment of America who would actually encourage pursuing good grades.
“I am convinced that if our teacher asked the class what 2+2 equals, and nobody spoke up who is not from China, not a single student from China would answer.” I have heard some form of this one at least a dozen times.
I can sympathize with this criticism. I think Americans would find the China students take on issues interesting, and perhaps even enlightening. That is the reason for diversity at the university. The exchanges deepen understanding. So, I find it rather shameful the atmosphere at University of Washington isn’t one where those students are actively speaking out in class.
Since I have first hand experience about MIT, I will use that school as an example in contrast. MIT’s international student population is a bit over 33% of the entire student body. Those international students, the ‘China’ ones included, thrive there. Why is that? I am sure the phenomenon at University of Washington exists at some other schools across America, but I don’t think that’s always the case.
I think a lot of factors contribute to that atmosphere, including the sentiment expressed in this next criticism:
“They are killing class discussion. They never contribute.” One student told me of how all the students not from China agreed not to speak one day to see what would happen. There was no class discussion and the teacher asked them not to do it again.
– is the attitude of the ‘host’ students.
Harris should have asked those University of Washington students whether they did anything to welcome the China students or to make them feel comfortable at these discussions. I don’t think it is very hard. If one is interested in their take on issues, one could simply solicit. How about, “hey, so and so, Chinese society might be different, could you tell us what you think about this and that.”
What this group of students did to confront the situation is mean. A more mature way to go about it is to bring it up with the professor and try to find some ways to engage.
For this lack of participation phenomenon, I put the blame at thirds each for University of Washington, the China students, and the disrespectful students.
“I cannot even stand having to listen to them give presentations. Their English is terrible and they don’t even try. Somebody else must have taken the tests for them.”
I deal with ‘terrible English’ on a daily basis and work across four time zones. The students who complain about bad English will have a rude awakening in our modern world. The meat is in the idea and the substance of what others are trying to say. We are in a interconnected world, and Americans should learn to look beyond ‘bad English.’ The fact that everyone has to communicate so much in the English language is already an incredible perk for native speakers.
The students not trying is certainly the students fault. I can’t believe all the students are that way. For allowing this phenomenon to fester, I would put some blame on University of Washington.
“The school is going to regret having admitted them. They will never donate money to the school as alumni. It will be like they were never here at all.”
I would say the data shows otherwise. This is a racist view. People who become successful and are generous donate, doesn’t matter what ethnicity they are or what country they come from.
“You will never see any of them at any school function. Never ever ever. Unless it can help them with a grade.” I am constantly hearing this one.
President Obama few years ago launched the 100,000 Strong initiative to encourage more American students studying in China. For those students, I wonder if the Chinese students end up making the same type of complaints. So, the question here is what can be done to encourage participation?
The China students should find ways to participate more. As hosts, the American students should make participation welcoming. This situation requires the both to tangle. There is no other way.
“They never make any effort to talk with anyone other than those who are also from China.”
I agree with this criticism mostly. China students should try to engage. At the same time I think Americans should realize it is hard for them due to the language and cultural barrier. But, to expect all initiative lies on the China students part is the wrong attitude.
“They cheat all the time. It is pretty unbelievable how often I have seen them cheating. I am always complaining to my professors about this, but they usually just act like they are too important to deign to deal with something like this. Just come watch a test being adminstered and it will be obvious. They are allowed to get away with it because they pay the foreign tuition rate. It isn’t fair.” I hear this one constantly as well and, needless to say, it is the one that causes the most anger.
Students of all colors and shapes and sizes cheat. University of Washington has to tackle this issue like any other educational institution. Expel the cheaters. The urge to pin this on ‘China’ is a racist impulse. Nothing intelligent about this complaint at all.
“My friend with a 3.8 GPA and 650 SATs didn’t get in and had to go to ______. I know he/she would have contributed far more to the school than these students from China.”
University of Washington has limited spots, so I think this is a legitimate concern to be followed up with the school. Perhaps the schools has rational reasons for not accepting those 3.8 GAP and 650 SATs students. But it is not a zero sum admissions process with only the China students. There are other local students as well those from other countries. Perhaps there are ‘worse’ ones who shouldn’t been admitted instead. Not fair to single out students from China.
“I’ve heard that most of them cheated to get in.”
How?
“The school claims they contribute to diversity. That’s a complete lie. How can someone who never says anything contribute to anything? Everyone knows they are here only because they pay the foreign tuition rate.
This is partly addressed above, and I sympathize with this criticism on the lack of participation part. If the full tuition part is indeed the only reason the students are at the University of Washington, then shame on the school. The parents paying the tuitions are also being scammed.
“I tried to speak with some of them, but they clearly had no interest.”
And I applaud the students who try to engage. I am willing to bet if American students genuinely try to befriend the China students, the vast majority of them would want to befriend back. Don’t give up.
“This is a great way to ruin relations between China and us.”
I disagree. I think the steady diet in the American press about China being bad has created a very negative image of everything from China. It is the personal contacts (apparently lacking in the University of Washington) that is helping to buttress the damage being done.
This is why I applaud President Obama’s 100,000 strong initiative in encouraging more Americans to study in China.
“Why do they even bother? They come here to study, but since they never interact with anyone who is not from China, I don’t even see why they come.”
It is because they and their parents believe there is a lot to learn in America. They believe American colleges and universities offer excellent education. An American college degree is highly respected in China.
Not engaging with American society and do things outside the classroom is indeed squandering opportunity to learn so much more.
So, in summary, I think there’s clearly much more the China students at University of Washington can do to engage. But the blame is not entirely on them. The complaints list also tells me many of these students are ignorant and even mean. The school has much to do too.
And the steps are actually super simple:
1. The China students, the university, and some students who have complained – all needs to sit down and come up with ideas to ENGAGE!
2. Foreign students should go through orientation on what their fellow American students expect of them.
3. American student should go through orientation on how to make their fellow foreign classmates more at ease.
LOLZ says
On the point about social interaction, International students tend to bunch together and Mainland China clique is only one of the many international cliques who will probably not socialize too much with other groups. There are many reasons for this, language and social barriers mostly. Sometimes you get groups (such as International South Koreans and Korean Americans) who do share a common language but for the most part don’t even socialize with each other due to differences in upbringing. I don’t get the anger though, so what if some people don’t like to socialize? If some people don’t get the full experience out of college, that’s their problem. It hardly ruins other people’s experience (except the few who want to socialize with everyone in the class).
The point about donating to school is odd. When I was in college, I don’t know of any students who cared about donating money to school. The alumni network and donations are items which we have to deal with after we graduate. In terms of monetary contributions, the fact that the mainland Chinese students are paying full tuition out of their pocket means that they have already contributed more to the school than the average alumni during the later’s lifetime. This quote makes me wonder about the “students” who “Dan” spoke to, it also reeks of prejudice. I would not be surprised actually if this quote (and many other quotes from the article) came from some Taiwan/HK students who have a history of prejudice against Mainland Chinese, as opposed to caucasian students. “Dan” made it very clear that the quotes were against only Mainland students. From my experience, most local American students tend to view international Asians as one single group and cannot even tell the difference between Korean groups and Chinese groups, let alone separate Taiwan groups from HK groups from Mainland groups. I think a lot of the complaints about Mainland Chinese says more about the people who are doing the complaining.
There are many points I do agree with the interviewed WU students though. The point about Chinese cheating is true, although I am not sure if they cheat in higher numbers than their counterparts from US and other nations. I think it’s WU’s responsibility to ensure its own students do not cheat.
Also, almost everyone agrees with the idea that US colleges should REALLY screen their international students better. I think this will benefit everyone but the school administrators. So far all of the students complaining about mainland Chinese students seem to come from second, third tier schools or worse. Many of these schools do not have a large profitable sports program so the influx of Chinese students are the only way to make a large amount of money quickly. So I don’t think the situation will change much for the better soon.
raventhorn says
@LOLZ
I have read the similar kinds of comments on Chinese not socializing, which borders on stereotyping.
I for one always attempted to socialize with various groups of people, Americans and Chinese. So, I can NOT relate to Dan’s post at all.
(and I do not consider myself a very social person).
But Dan’s post at least indicates the still lingering racial stereotyping of Chinese being “anti-social”.
Hmm. 1.3 Billion Chinese people don’t seem that “anti-social” to each other.
As far the complaints about University of Washington’s admission policies, I personally don’t think it fair that anyone should receive any advantages in admission.
Take away the diversity points for Veterans, Disabled, Race, Alumni relations, Atheletics, etc., and go with pure test scores and GPA.
I don’t think Chinese students would care 1 iota.
Ron says
While I think this blog in general can provide a useful counterpoint to an anti-China bias in much of Western media, I find it’s often overly defensive to a point where it overlooks some realities. A few of the points are below.
Having been working in a multinational in China where I have weekly meetings with mixed Chinese and foreign staff, I can assure you that the Chinese staff rarely say anything, even when discussion or brainstorming is encouraged. Talking to these staff, they often one or a combination of several beliefs – the boss knows best so don’t question him/her, trainers/teachers are here to teach and we learn by listening, if you speak up and are wrong you will lose face, it’s best not to stick your neck out. For this reason it comes as no surprise to me that Chinese students don’t participate in discussions.
Grades are the only thing that matter in China. It’s all the parents care about, so it’s all the students care about. Many Western educators would argue that grades are very poor indicators of learning, especially in test-centric school systems. Progressive education is a pretty hot topic in the US right now and so I can see why students would make this comment in a disparaging way.
Cheating is terrible in China. We often do a test with new staff in trainings to highlight cultural differences. The test is that we tell all the new staff they will be given a test. Then we stress 3 times that it’s very important that nobody cheats on this test. The instructor hands out the test and then makes up an excuse to leave the room. Without fail, the Chinese staff immediately start cheating when the instructor leaves the room. Foreign staff are often shocked. My Chinese co-workers have often told me that scamming the system is considered a sign of intelligence, which is one reason why nobody seems to see a problem with it.
Actually, cheating is ubiquitous in a number of countries, not just China. For this reason most US colleges do have specific classes for foreign students on cheating, plagiarism, and academic integrity. They also give cultural insights like you’re suggesting above.
I think Dan’s post was an interesting look at student comments from WU, but I agree he should have asked for the Chinese students’ opinions as well. I’d be interested to know if similar sentiments are felt at other colleges in the US.
pug_ster says
I see this kind of ‘epidemic’ of Chinese students ‘flooding’ in the American Educational system as sour grapes by the American students themselves. We all know about the complaints about the Chinese students’ problem is that they just memorize information due to their studying methods and the lack of ‘creativity.’ What if they used this same kind of method of test taking that allowed them to do better than the American counterparts? Does participating in class makes you a smarter person? Maybe the Chinese are better note takers in class due to their ‘training?’
As for ‘cheating’ by the Chinese students, this is based on feedback from the fellow American Students and this is hardly scientific. Don’t American Students cheat? I saw in the news the other week where some kind of scandal in a high school where the teachers are helping Students cheat in order to get a better standing for their school. Unless there’s some kind of scientific study that Chinese Students are more likely to cheat than their American counterparts, I would conclude that Chinese students are probably better test takers due to the way that they are taught.
I also think that China should invest more money on making better Chinese Universities and attract the best and brightest to their universities instead of having more Chinese Students study abroad.
raventhorn says
@pug_ster
That scandal is in DC.
And it is totally sour grapes.
These whining American students are making unsubstantiated allegations to smear entire groups of “Chinese students”. (and when lacking in official school data, they claim the School is IN on the scam).
Of course, you can find a lot of these guys on http://blog.ratemyprofessors.com/.
they will whine just about any amount of “unfairness” in the schools.
*I take it as a sign of pride that while American students are whining about how unfair their school lives are, Chinese students are succeeding.
“Can do” Attitude? “Shut up and do it”? Check!
The new generation of Americans is giving US a bad name as a generation of whiners.
School is a training ground for real life. If one can’t deal with all the “unfairness” real or imaginary in school, one is not going to get too far in real life.
One wonders, with all the GREAT “socializing” the American students are doing, apparently, they can’t get anywhere in influencing their own academic success.
Oh surprise, schools don’t give grades for gossips and rumors. And in real life, you only get maybe 15 seconds of fame.
And the “anti-social” Chinese students have no problems closing business deals.
pug_ster says
I forgot to mention that Americans in general are behind in Math and Science compared to the rest of the world. So by the time that they go to College, they are competing with the Chinese Students who are more well equipped for college than they are.
I know many Chinese Kids who have emigrated to the US during their Elementary, Middle and High school years and commented that how non-competitive the classes are and most kids go to the next grade without learning much of anything.
LOLZ says
Actually within the last few months there were multiple cheating scandals involving teachers in the US. The first is in Atlanta where a probe found 177 teachers across 44 schools (that’s out of 56 total, or close to 80%) helped students to cheat on national tests. The other is in DC, where tests from 103 schools were found with much higher than average occurrence of erasing the wrong answers replaced with the correct ones.
raventhorn says
Speaking of foreign students,
My wife had an American student roommate, when she was going through University in Shanghai.
True story, (but anecdotal), the American exchange student roommate use to bug my wife all the time, asking her “favors”, such as “help” her with her homework in the classes, because the Chinese university classes were “too difficult”.
When I say “help”, I meant, the American student would basically ask my wife to do all the homework.
When I say “too difficult”, I meant, the American student was too busy with her “social life” in China.
At first my wife was trying to be nice about it, and “helped” as much as she could, AND made sure that her roommate understood the class material and the homework at least.
But eventually it got to a point when my wife asked me, “Are American students all this lazy and shameless?”
*Now, I assured my wife that they are not all like that. But at the same time, I advised my wife to stop “helping” her roommate.
But, admittedly, I also “helped” some American students, when I was in University in US, but I didn’t do their homework. I merely allowed them to follow me, as I worked on my own homework, in a “group” with them, even though they didn’t contribute much.
I remember explaining to my “group”, how to solve the problems, 1/2 hour before the class began, and my “group” furiously writing down every thing I explained.
(I was social enough to “help” my American friends in school).
*But I can see why some Chinese students would not be equally “social”, because frankly, it was a lot of work “helping” others.
(I saw it as good practice for myself in understanding the class material, and be able to explain it to others quickly. I found it much easier to memorize the material later, after I had explained it verbally to my “group”).
*On the other hand, I didn’t take very good notes, so I would often borrow notes from my “group”.
So, my “group” was mutually beneficial with me.
In my experience, I have seen Chinese students form their group also based upon such mutually beneficial relationships, ie. exchanging class notes, and helping each other in explaining problems/solutions.
That’s not “cheating”. That’s just smart studying.
On the other hand, if you are copying someone’s homework without trying to understand it, you are the one doing the cheating to yourself, because you won’t be able to pass the tests.
pug_ster says
@LOLZ
Exactly, the problem is that many of the kids in the American’s schools are rubberstamped to go to the next grade. In China, it is basically the survival of the fittest and the fittest go to these American Universities. The sad fact is that it is much harder to go the elite Universities in China and it is easier to go to the Ivy League schools in America.
Ray says
Nothing new here. It sounds like a congressional meeting where all sorts of accusation were hurled at the “mainland Chinese”. As usual, not a shred of evidence was produced and the accused is considered guilty as charged by the US press.
I think I am qualified to comment here as well as I did graduate from a US school. During the early 1990s, there were few mainland Chinese students compared to those from Taiwan, HK and other overseas Chinese. The few that were in my schools were almost all graduate school students. They were basically among the cream of the crop from China so they mostly performed well. The other Chinese students do differ greatly in qualities from among the worse to the best.
Today, with the explotion of wealth and creation of a large middle class in China, the academic quality of the students might be less on average but would not be worse than those from Taiwan, HK etc. The whole article is too selective and showed more of the hatred and narrow mindedness of the the accusors than any thing else.
TonyP4 says
I had a great experience in Cal. State U. at San Jose and U. Mass., Amherst. CSU even offered US history, government, English… to foreign students. Without that, it would be tough to compete with native students. The tuition at the time was quite cheap and heavily subsidized by the state. Many thanks to that.
I guarantee the following joke on a new student in US will lighten up your day.
http://www.tonyp4joke.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-student-our-100th-joke-very-funny.html
YinYang says
The other thing I am thinking is – where are the responsible adults? I contacted the University of Washington yesterday about the CLB article. I hope they take some action.
Parents in China need to become aware of this type of attitudes too for their kids sake. They need to consider this kind of climate when choosing an American school.
Allen says
I think this is the original article – which Dan never linked.
http://behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/11/9679479-chinese-applications-to-us-schools-skyrocket
So is this post about Dan or that article?
The article is ok I think. It’s informative and opens room for discussion. Chinese students seeking Western education is an important trend to watch – not just socially, politically, but also as an economic phenomenon.
Dan’s article – perhaps reflecting his typical self – is more narrow and close minded, but still, as you have done here, when properly treated, it can also lead to open minded discussion.
YinYang says
@Allen
Allen, about Dan’s article which featured the list of complaints against students from China.
YinYang says
@Ron
By the way, your comment was caught by our spam filter, because the IP you used was marked a spam source.
You said:
I would say in the case of the company you work for, it is a shame. I work with many Japanese companies, and I can imagine if you are me, you’d characterize the Japanese the same way. Your company somehow has to work with the Chinese employees to get them comfortable in speaking up. Otherwise you are missing out on valuable input (which I presume you agree exists and want).
Matt Cooper says
I think it is well, also, to take into account the class relations INSIDE the United States before delving into these issues. The bachelor’s degree is rapidly becoming (if it isn’t already) the baseline requirement for a decent, living-wage job. Given the already-existing bottleneck which results from poor procedural integration between American high schools and institutions of higher learning, both academic performance and the school one gets into become immediate status symbols. Speaking as someone who has worked at and lived in the vicinity of Brown University for six years, it has been my observation that there is already a very strong sense of class-based entitlement at the top schools, particularly among the ones that like to pass themselves off as ‘sophisticated, intelligent and well-travelled’. It would not surprise me in the least if there were an element of classism at play here, as well as xenophobia.
But it’s striking to me – here at the University of Pittsburgh, few if ANY of the criticisms on the China Law blog apply AT ALL. Though English skill and communications skill naturally varies, most Chinese students here are more than happy to participate in class discussions and group work.
YinYang says
@Matt Cooper
Thanks for sharing your observations at the University of Pittsburgh.
YinYang says
Link below is a recent article by University of Washington’s school paper reporter Jillian Stampher on the increase in international students. Relevant read.
“Home Away From Home
Increase in international students seen in residence halls”
http://dailyuw.com/news/2011/oct/05/home-away-home/
Charles Liu says
Seems the Chinese students are experiencing similar racial stereotype the African-American college student experience:
http://www.google.com/search?q=black+college+student+stereotype
Mott the Hopple says
I do not think you are being at all fair to the University of Washington. You make it sound as though that is the only school where this goes on and that is neither true nor is it at all what Dan said in the post. Here is what he said:
“That got me to thinking about the complaints (yes, it has been nothing but complaints) I have heard from college students (a little over half of whom are at the University of Washington — but I certainly have heard the very same thing from sons and daughters of friends who attend other schools and from their parents as well, who in turn have heard it from their kids) about their fellow students from China. I am not going to editorialize at all here. Instead, I am just going to set out the sort of things I have heard and let people discuss them in the comments.”
I mention this because I am a junior at the University of Washington and my twin brother is a junior at Berkeley and I can assure you that the opinions expressed in Dan’s post about the University of Washington are equally true at Berkeley. I wish this were not a big problem countrywide, but it is and to blame it all on the University of Washington and try to paint us as a bunch of racist hicks is both unfair and is an unwise attempt to sweep a real issue under the rug.
LOLZ says
I can only wish “Mott the Hopple” would apply the same logic here when judging Chinese students. He and many others make it as though cheating and being cliquey are issues which only applies exclusively to Chinese students, which is simply not true.
“I wish this were not a big problem countrywide, but it is and to blame it all on the University of Washington and try to paint us as a bunch of racist hicks is both unfair and is an unwise attempt to sweep a real issue under the rug.”
It’s hypocritical that so many only want to judge others in ways which they themselves do not want to be judged. If the gloves are off then so be it. I wouldn’t say that all U of W students who complain about Chinese students are racist rednecks, but to say that all or even most Chinese students cheat and are anti-social as “matt the hopple” is implying here is a sure sign of prejudice; there are many Chinese students who clearly do not cheat and are social. The function of “Matt the hopples”‘s comment here is to reinforce that prejudice, whether he realizes this or not.
I do agree with “Matt the hopple” though that the real issue is being swept under the rug. However I think we may disagree on what this “real issue” is. To him the majority of the fault may lie on the Chinese students. “If they are only more social and cheat less”. I think the fault lies within the the American education system. Due to greed and mismanagement, the schools cannot sustain themselves financially. Many lower tier schools (but also including a few good state schools belonging to bankrupt states like UCBerkeley) have to go out of their way and accept otherwise unqualified students. It just so happens that many of these unqualified students are from China because that’s where the money are coming from nowadays. People can blame the Chinese students all they want, but how will prejudice and bashing them solve the problem? Unqualified students are unqualified students no matter they come from.
pug_ster says
@Mott the Hopple
Maybe things changed so much since I went to College, but can you tell me how do these Chinese Students cheat? In terms of their social life, what’s the big friggin deal? You can choose your friends, they can certainly choose their friends, even if it is their own kind. For many of these Chinese Students coming to America to study, it is a big culture shock for most of them. Living away from their parents 6000 miles away, seeing people who don’t exactly speak their language, eating food that is unfamiliar to them, and unfamiliar with the local customs. So I don’t see what’s the problem of them trying to gain some kind of sense community befriending each other instead of people outside of their races. I’m sure that many Expats who traveled and lived in China probably experienced this same kind of culture shock. When I was a freshman, my roomate in College couldn’t adjust going to a university in another city. He simply couldn’t adjust and transferred out after the semester was over and moved back to a college close to home. I’m sure that there are alot of Chinese Students who come to the US to study who simply could not adjust for some reason and probably dropped out.
Charles Liu says
If the “they all cheat and school don’t care/faciliate it” is true, then our universities have a serious indictment on hand. Plus how much of the “they don’t socialize with me” complaint is from whiteboys watched one too many Sailor Moon anime being snubbed?
raventhorn says
@Mott the Hopple
“I do not think you are being at all fair to the University of Washington. You make it sound as though that is the only school where this goes on and that is neither true nor is it at all what Dan said in the post.
I mention this because I am a junior at the University of Washington and my twin brother is a junior at Berkeley and I can assure you that the opinions expressed in Dan’s post about the University of Washington are equally true at Berkeley. I wish this were not a big problem countrywide, but it is and to blame it all on the University of Washington and try to paint us as a bunch of racist hicks is both unfair and is an unwise attempt to sweep a real issue under the rug.”
You make it sound like we are blaming the problem on U of Washington.
I don’t know what you are talking about.
Clearly, we are all talking about the Bigger problem and the “real issue”.
Oh, because “Berkeley” has similar problems, then that doesn’t make “a bunch of racist hicks” less so??
Hey, if you are not 1 of the “a bunch of racist hicks”, GREAT for you! Happy to hear from you! You are not the “real issue” here. We are not talking about you!
I assure you, I’m not making any assumptions about YOU because of your friends at school. Wish the same is true of your school mates (who expressed their stereotypical assumptions rather openly).
pug_ster says
http://abcnews.go.com/primetime/story?id=132376&page=1#.TxBBhYEjaJk
The posting at CLB is ignorant of certain facts. The American Students think they are so great compared to the Chinese Students in terms of cheating, that they don’t think they cheat themselves. The article above states that in a confidential survey of 12,000 high school students, 74% of them admitted on cheating on an exam at least once within the last year. Makes you think how many of them who went on to college and do the same thing. Not just that, you can go to schoolsucks.com and purchase a pre-written essay from someone else where in China I doubt you can find such a website that would help you out.
JJ says
Woah… while I agree with a lot of your points, I have to take issue with this statement. Yes, I agree that the Taiwanese/HK students will joke about Mainlanders and vice versa. But I would say a “history of prejudice” is going a bit too far.
In just about every social Chinese group I’ve seen, it’s always mix of Taiwanese, HK, and Mainlanders along with other Overseas Chinese.
I’m curious, is the discussion in English? And are the Chinese staff fluent or at least proficient in English?
– – – – – – –
It’s strange how people will complain about the accents of foreign students, and then also complain how they won’t participate in class discussions.
I can guarantee that these students are very aware they’re being mocked for their accents, so they simply chose not to embarrass themselves.
If you go to any Chinese school—where they get to speak their own language and no one will make fun of them—you can bet there’s a lot of discussion going on.
But the simple fact is that these students are attuned to the social behaviors/popular media and they realize that a lot of folks seem to take pleasure in making fun of their accents. So of course they are going to be self-conscious and avoid making a fool of themselves.
jimmy says
The Washington u fraternity or other ones should read more from the outside world and avoid nurturing views of all biased kinds. Why don’t they read http://www.scribd.com/jimmyfung40 and discuss the topics there. It would be good for them !
Wayne says
The fact that everyone has to communicate so much in the English language is already an incredible perk for native speakers.
Exactly.
The world bends over backwards and speaks English as the international language. This is a historical legacy of British imperialism.
So these whites should quit their whining.
In Hong Kong, if there is ONE white man in the room during a meeting, we all speak English for his benefit.
So these whites (and the moaners will undoubtedly be white) should come down off their high horse and instead of condemning these students, should think instead how to help them.
Wayne says
Foreign students should go through orientation on what their fellow American students expect of them.
I agree with this. The student’s parents are shelling out big bucks for their education. The schools at the very least should provide some cultural acclimitization for them.
The fact is the Anglo Saxon culture is also at fault. They are a pretty much repressed bunch themselves. And also the incredible self-opinionated, and narcissistic nature of Anglo Saxons is something Chinese will have difficulty getting to grips with.
If you ask an American a stupid question like ‘what are your strengths’ or even ‘what are your weaknesses’ you won’t be able to stop him talking.
Chinese simply are not self-absorbed like whites. That is the point of cultural difference.
Wayne says
I laugh at when someone claimed that chinese students only want good grades, not to learn.
For heavens sake if you get good grades, and you have not learned….surely that means that is a problem of the school system and exam system. Not the student?
The fact is the mainland students probably do better overall than local students.
And chinese students in general are topping the classes, taking out the prizes, and getting the places at the prestigious colleges.
And the exam system used to get ‘good grades’, is the same one that whites have used for hundreds of years. Now when Chinese do better on this same system, the whites moan and moan and say, “but these chinese students have not learned anything”.
In football (soccer) there is a saying called ‘shifting the goal posts’. That is something whites are expert at.
Charles Liu says
@Wayne
Bra, there really is a trend with US universities opting to not admit qualified local students on economic reason. But there’re few problems with scapegoating the Chinese students:
1) Out-of-state admission also rose significantly. I have friends who complaint to me that their kids are applying to out-of-state colleges because UW is too competitive for locals. Everybody is admitting out-of-state students, is this China’s fault too?
2) Who the schools choose to admit, what standards is up to the school, not the student. If they choose to pursue the money and grant admission on bad faith, or allow international students to cheat openly, who’s ultimately at fault? The system not the student, IMHO.
3) One of the complaint about the CLB article is there’re no numbers, just blanket accusation. Let’s try to put some # on this one – how many Chinese students are at UW? According to sensational media description 18% of UW Freshmen class is international, and over half are from China. That’s 9% of freshmen. 6 years ago students from China is less than 1%, since international students are are about 1% then. To extrapolate this number there are less than 4% of Chinese students at UW. This is a very small minority thus easily targeted IMHO.
pug_ster says
Frankly, I’m more disappointed at Dan at CLB to post this kind of unsubstantiated, flamebait, rumor-mill, and racist garbage. I thought Dan was a stand up guy. I guess Allen was right about him and I was wrong.
Charles Liu says
This is while all international students tops out around 14%:
http://www.insidecollege.com/reno/Colleges-with-the-Highest-Percentage-of-International-Students/336/list.do
Ray says
There is also something fundamentally wrong when the minority is blame. Despite their numbers, the mainland Chinese represent a small percentage in US campuses.
Joyce Lau’s argument http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html#147966 is that since students from other countries are not blame part of the problems might lie with the Chinese students and then she came up with an article allegedly showing that 90% of ALL Chinese applicants lied! Frankly, I would distrust any such figures because there is no scientific way of verifying it. But people would pass it around as solid fact.
Her argument is the same as in the late 1980s and early 1990s when Japan bashing was the norm. Again, the accusers are always blaming the accused. The burden of proving their innocence lied with the accused. Does anybody see anything wrong with this sort of arguments. Today who would have remembered that Japan was once a bogeyman of the west. Is Japan of today not the same as Japan of the 1990s? It is also like saying there are many Indian students who got attacked in Australia and somehow it is their faults because other international students were less attacked. And if you want to see worse attacked on Indian national, simply search for article about outsourcing. You will see all sorts of accusation being hurled at Indian national too.
Basically, it is a trend that I have seen repeated on comment section worldwide. One westerner would raise the issue of Tibet, Falungong, Tiananmen, Ai Wei Wei etc and the pro-Chinese camp have to came up with a defence. The pro-Chinese side would come up with a solid defence but the other side would almost never be convinced. The fact is, most people already made up their mind before dealing with the evidence.
The funny thing is, the very same European would also place the blame on the Roma because it is their fault for being stateless and having higher rate of incarceration. Same argument with the African and Hispanic American high incarceration rate. The native American’s high suicide rate, unemployment rate is also through the roof but somehow it is also their fault for not being able to integrate into the system. However, they would lament about the oppressed minority including the Uighur in China despite evidence proving they received better treatment.
If the blame the minority theory is valid the Jews are truly to be blamed for the gas chambers. The argument is that why didn’t the German blame somebody else? Sadly, we see so many people buying the same argument that the minority is guilty without a proper trial because the majority think so.
Wayne says
Trust me. Most whites won’t, in fact can’t, distinguish between Mainland, Hong Kong, Taiwan, or even local born Asians.
There is huge white angst in most Western countries over the fact that the medical schools, engineering schools, are stacked with Asians (Chinese and also Indian) out of all proportion to their actual numbers. In engineering PhD programmes in Australasia I have heard that often over 90% of the cohort is Asian.
Law schools too are getting more and more Chinese and Asian students.
Thus Asians will eventually go on to form a large part of the professional and business classes of these countries, in spite of the very real glass ceilings that still exist.
So hitting out at mainland students for some real and some perceived problems is really just an easy way for whites to vent their spleen over what I have described above, without appearing ‘racist’.
Any problem can be made to be as big or small as one wants to make it. If you don’t like someone, or don’t like a group of people, you amplify the issues in your own mind. This is what is happening here.
Wayne says
Ray:
Joyce Lau is typical of the breed of Hong Kong person who loves to proclaim how ‘westernized’ they are, and looks down their noses at the ‘uncivilized’ chinese. She also loves to flaunt the fact she has a half-white child. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with having a half-white child, but there is something wrong with showing off the fact the child is half-white.
I just looked at her blog. This is a typical entry:
“But, sweet Jesus. If the Chinese are wondering why negative stereotypes still abound, it’s because of stories like this — greedy tycoons and potentially murderous government officials dining on what most civilized people consider cute household pets. ”
So there it is. ‘Civilized’ people are of course who else but white people. And these white people are justified their ‘negative stereotypes’ because some Chinese eat cats. And Chinese officials are potentially ‘murderous.’ (even though it is US officials who have killed hundreds of thousands in illegal wars).
Joyce Lau is a disgusting type of human being who will band together with whites to trash her own people.
People like this abound in Hong Kong, especially among those who received an education in the West.
YinYang says
@Wayne
I expect those type of mindsets to wane in Hong Kong. The privileged class sucked up to the British rulers got more crumbs. It will take some time for that sentiments to slowly fade.
Harry Belafonte once said, even the slaves, there were the ‘yes’ slaves who got to sleep in the master’s house.
I am also thinking about a Vietnamese friend who had to escape Vietnam after the U.S. pull-out. This family had worked for the French colonists. After the Vietnam war was over, there was so much carnage and bloodshed. They had to flea.
There is a pattern, and I think Joyce Lau’s is one best explained by human nature. The lesson is not to get yourself colonized.
What heals is time.
pug_ster says
@Ray
There’s something that I would like to point out.
1) Joyce Lau works for NY times’ IHT (International Herald Tribune.) Guess where that article where she points out is from? So she is nothing more than a propagandist.
2) About the 90% BS. This ‘study’ came from one person, a ‘consulting company’ that advises American colleges and universities about China. And he concluded “90 percent of Chinese applicants submit false recommendations, 70 percent have other people write their personal essays, 50 percent have forged high school transcripts and 10 percent list academic awards and other achievements they did not receive.” 90%? 70%? 50% and 10%? are rather rounded numbers, doesn’t it? He even admits in his ‘survey’ that he couldn’t get an accurate count, so why should we trust his numbers?
3) As others mentioned, this article itself says Universities hire ‘outside agents’ to recruit students, namely from China.
Ray says
@Wayne
Although I agree with many of your points. I feel that they way you are attacking all “Anglo-Saxon” is a bit over the top. You shouldn’t sink to the level of those who make broad generalization attacking a whole group of people or culture. Thanks.
YinYang says
Ray makes a really important point, Wayne. Martin Luther King, Jr., will not have a U.S. holiday next week if he had not appealed to the rational and fair-minded Americans.
Wayne says
@YinYang
You have made a good point, and I apologise for some of my more intemperate comments.
One such fair-minded person is Ron Paul. I have been watching a few of his debates as of late and am encouraged that he is getting some significant support among the US public.
I don’t know much about his domestic policies, but certainly his foreign policy and his views on China come off as very fair and balanced.
Ray says
@pug_ster
As others mentioned, this article itself says Universities hire ‘outside agents’ to recruit students, namely from China.
From my observation, the universities who need to hire agents to do recruitment are mostly “2nd tier” institution that need the students dollar. I don’t think any Ivy Leagues schools need to do that as every place offered is contested by many qualified students. I just want to say that there is always two sides to every story.
jxie says
A few comments:
* Some of Dan’s quotes were sort of self-contradictory. If one is self-aware of when he speaks, others can’t stand his accent, wouldn’t he naturally be gun-shy of raising his hand to answer the “2+2” question. If in his native tongue, I expect a Chinese student far more likely than an American student to give the correct answer: 11 in ternary, 10 in quaternary, and 4 in anything else. Heck, flip this around, imagine you are in a discussion in school or in business, in Mandarin Chinese!
* Based on one of the links, there are some 150k Chinese students in the American colleges. If we assume one each spends average $30k a year in American, that’s $4.5 billion service trade surplus in America’s favor. In a way, whatever you (as an American (white?) student) don’t like, indirectly reduces the cost of your education. Be thankful sometimes.
* I tend to think mainland Chinese students stand out only because of the large number (per Charles Liu, 9% of the freshmen at UW). Students from Hong Kong, Singapore & Philippines may speak better English initially than mainland students – but I highly doubt on average students from Taiwan, Korea, and Vietnam speak better. International students, at least initially tend to congregate with the same kind regardless where they come from. It’s pretty hard for a young man or woman living in a foreign land.
* In my college days (similar to Ray’s timeframe), we mainland Chinese students tended to be the most aggressive in pursue being accepted by the society at large, because we planned to stay. In my case, I even recorded my own voice so that I could have the feedback to lose my accent. I guess nowadays mainland Chinese students were like the Taiwanese students back in the 90s — staying together all the time. Most of them planned to finish the school and go back home. In between, grade is quite possibly the only important thing. In a way, be thankful they are not trying to socialize with you with his broken English — because after they get better, they will take your job!
* Raven is right, be prepared for the international workplace in which people speak in all sort of accents. If the US is to decline to be #2 or even #3 in the future, English as a language will still be like Latin after the fall of the Roman Empire, still the lingua franca of the world.
JJ says
@YinYang
It’s a post-colonial mentality. Albert Memmi has an excellent book called The Colonizer and the Colonized which discusses this. In addition, Orientalism by Edward W. Said is also a must read.
In a way, I do feel sorry for them as they have a type of “conditioned” mental illness. But what I also find interesting is that some of the most outspoken anti-colonial activists are hapa! It’s because they’re able to blend into both worlds and yet at the same time they aren’t accepted completely that they see through the systematic racism.
@Wayne
Yeah, I love reading your thoughts but I was also getting a little uncomfortable with your references 🙂 But I’m glad to see you acknowledge that and were able to admit it! And at least among my Western friends, they’re all a very enlightened and aware group.
You should also check out some of Tim Wise’s writings, like This is Your Nation on White Privilege (Updated) and Peggy McIntosh’s classic
Unpacking the Invisible Backpack (PDF).
I do feel there’s more good than bad in the world. But it’s just unfortunate that the loudest ones usually aren’t. And often, I feel they are just saying things for attention and to make money as an “expert.”
pug_ster says
@Ray
You’re right. The NY Times mentions University of Delaware, which is not exactly a top tier school which recruits students from China. I wonder what is the value of getting an undergrad degree in the US, unless it is from a top tier school. I think it is better for Chinese students come to the US as grad students to a 2nd tier University instead and have a better cred that way, not to mention that you save more money.
jxie says
@pug_ster
My sister is a SVP of a bank with its Chinese HQ at Shanghai. She told me that at this point there are so many resumes with US/Canada/Australia/Europe college degrees, some even graduate degrees flooding the HR department. Even an Ivy League degree means far less than before the global financial meltdown. Jim Rogers who is a Yale alumnus, said he would short an Ivy League education if he could. An Ivy League college degree runs you close to quarter a million dollars if not more. With today’s job market worldwide, it’s very hard to justify that.
Ray says
@pug_ster
The vast majority of the 150,000 or so mainland Chinese students go to 2nd or 3rd tier schools. Why? Because most of them can’t get into a 1st tier school in China either. To most parents with the means a 2nd tier school in the US or western countries is a good alternative. Not to mention they get an international experience. They would also learn a working foreign language.
And here’s another attraction, by graduating from a western university, even from a 2nd tier school, they have a better chance of getting a job overseas, again boosting their international experience, making them more desirable in any job market. This is not just a trend for mainland Chinese, overseas Chinese have been doing it for ages.
For examples, in the 1960s my dad and uncle go to school in Taiwan, and I have aunt, uncle who graduated from Australia, NZ etc. Lee Kuan Yew, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Prime Minister from Malaysia go to schools in the UK.
Chinese graduates from overseas will contribute to China’s developement with their overseas experience. I believe Chinese students going overseas is set to grow even further. They are even in Malaysia and Singapore.
YinYang says
@Wayne
No problem. You have a lot of great insights and many people like your take on things – myself included. Really glad we see eye to eye on that point. Hope you will be a regular on this blog. Email Allen or myself one of these days.
YinYang says
@JJ
Thanks for sharing those books. Will add to my reading list. Another person – Kate Rigg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut59PKruPrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z0rTNaykL8 (Really interesting exchange between Kage Rigg and a commenter on Youtube:)
YinYang says
Shaun Rein made a really good point in the prior post about Chinese leaders also sending their kids to the West to study. The point he made is that China is not fearful of ideas from the West. Rather, they are sending their children over to soak it all in to take back home, adapt, and apply.
When people talk about Chinese government censorship, they conveniently ignore censorship is mostly about blocking anti-Chinese government politics (along with hate speech, pornography, and other usual stuff). Yes, blocking youtube and Facebook etc is too blunt.
When we look at all these Chinese students studying in the West and looking at the number of Westerners studying in China – it is easy to see which way ideas flow more. Look at how much Chinese the West knows vs. how much English China knows.
Their is a big mental firewall in the West.
Ray says
@jxie
I am not sure what’s your take on this. However, when China has more and more college graduates the hiring of the MNC will become even more selective. In developed economies it is not uncommon to see people with college degree working in check-out counter or driving a cab. That will happen to China one day and I am not sure that is a bad thing.
As for Ivy Leagues education, if you can afford it, good. It is like a luxury sedan, it is not a necessity but comes with all the bell and whistle.
jxie says
@Ray
Am sort of on the fence for this topic. At a collective level, for sure more college graduates in the population as a whole, is a good thing, to a certain extent. At a personal level, it’s hard to say in some cases if the tuition can be justified — you will really need to look at it as a very long term investment. Anybody fresh with a 4-year 2nd-tier American college degree with carefully managed intern experiences going back Chinese coastal cities can expect to make 1/3 to 1/2 of the salary compared to their American peers who in this day and age are far from certain can be gainfully employed after college. Many already consider the college tuition being overpriced judged by the expected American income. Imagine you have to carry a quarter mil student loan to go through an Ivy league education in a major that normally doesn’t get paid well.
Anyway, the point is that don’t go for a college degree for the sake of getting a college degree. It’s a very important personal and often family investment.
When compared to other countries, it’s very interesting that Germany’s official college enrollment rate is actually lower than many other countries, including the likes of Greece (about 1/2 of the German income level) and Argentina (about 1/4 of the German income level). A sizable portion of the German youths isn’t going to standard colleges, but rather technical schools. Plus continuous on-the-job training, the German workforce is more productive than most others.
In China now, some of the hardest filled jobs are skilled technicians. To Chinese parents, unless your kid is really smart, maybe the best investment for them is some technical schools…
Appalled says
This is my first time here and I have to tell you that I find this place to be a joke. It appears that all of the people who comment are American-born Chinese who are angry about having been ostracized as children and are using this self-congratulatory and American-hating site as their revenge. Get a life people. Get out there and socialize. Live a bit. Release your anger. Trust me, you will feel better for it and I bet that if you all did this, you might actually start getting regular readers beyond the 10 or 12 of you.
YinYang says
Appalling troll – you are the same type of people who would accuse Martin Luther King, Jr. as a terrorist. Just blocked your IP.
Zhang Lu says
yinyang,
I really don’t think you should be censoring “Appalled” for just that one thing he said. Are we not strong enough to handle criticism? I also think your equating what Appalled said to calling Martin Luther King, Jr. a terrorist is going way too far. Appalled does make some good points and I for one would like to see the readership of this blog broadened to include more than just us American born Chinese. We used to be read by others but I fear that we have become so insulated and so closed just among ourselves that we have driven those other people away. I see even that readership is way down. I want this blog to succeed as a forum for people to think about China issues from a less ethnocentric perspective, but if we are going to drive away our readers, we are not going to fail at that. Undo the block and let’s start practicing the open-mindedness we encourage in others.
*marked spam by RV. Porn Troll is pretending to be an “American born Chinese”, want to see increase in “readership”?! Right… IP address traced to known SPAM server.
Charles Liu says
@Appalled
Most of us are not US born, many like myself, are not from mainland China.
Ray says
@jxie
You have made a very sharp observation here. This is the one million dollar question every politician should ask himself. Basically, it concern the education system which eventually would guide any country to its future. Why is Greece’s and Argentina’s income level so much lower than Germany despite having a “lower level” of education across the board.
In Germany and Japan, an experienced line production worker make as much as an engineer. Germany today actually have shortage of production workers and engineers forcing them to set up factories all over Europe (Well, one can say that cost is another reason for that). Japan is now actively moving their lower level production line to mainland China for the same reason.
In China, despite the large work force, there is a serious shortage of experienced technicians , engineers, and even managers. Unfortunately, skilled technicians are paid very much lower than the engineers and managers. The major reason being that the profit margin of most Chinese companies are very low and there are an abundance of low skilled workers (a catch-22 situation in today’s China). China’s economy is still a long way off from developed status, the blue collar jobs are among the lowest paid and considered undesirable. The only way to change the parents mind set is when the work situation changed. Again I see only the government can change the situation. In Germany and Japan, the government encourages industries and set up the education system to support it.
I’ll just give an example. BMW assembled the E90 model in Germany, UK, S.Africa and Malaysia. The one that has the fewest defects come from Germany, followed by UK, S.Africa and Malaysia. So the workforce does make a difference.
Eric Wong says
Harris is just after views on his blog. He’ll get them from the US, because the article was border-line racist and wholly xenophobic. But then can we expect any better from a white American litigation lawyer whose China practice is run from one office in Seattle? After all, his main line of work is not China but defending Alaskan people who stole chunks of NASA’s moon rock. No really – look: http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-resident-sues-alaska-moon.html
Harris is just after views and fame. He’ll get them alright. Whether he’ll ever get to practice in China is another matter.
LOLZ says
Appalled’s trolling attempt reads a little like the “Shit was so Cash” meme 🙂
raventhorn says
@LOLZ
He’s the same troll who’s been around, comes back every now and then, and write the same kind “this blog/forum is such a joke”, under different nicknames.
What a loser!
jxie says
@Wayne
Speak of eating cats, didn’t they report quite recently some Swiss hunted and ate cats and dogs? I certainly didn’t see anybody who applauded any negative stereotyping of Switzerland as a whole, by an ethnic Swiss nonetheless.
From a philosophical standpoint, cows are sacred in Hindu, then why wouldn’t we call all the rest non-Hindus as amoral sinners who either eat beef or condone the society at large allowing beef eating? How difficult is it for anyone to see the whole topic itself is prism-driven not morality-driven? In case you wonder, partly because of the SARS scare, China had recently either passed or drafted legal code that makes eating cats/dogs illegal, to the chagrin of some Cantonese cuisine aficionados.
Joyce Lau, in my black friends’ words (from the highly educated type to some urban slum dwellers), would be called an “uncle Tom.” The word in a way exemplifies the anger toward the whole loss of connection to their ancestral culture, in the whole slave trade/arrested development history. In the case of oversea Chinese that link has always been there. Heck I am not asking you to appreciate the beauty of elegant ancient Chinese verses and poetry that those in China have been brought up to appreciate, I am simply asking you to utilize your intellectual faculty, if you have any, to independently examine all the narratives out there.
BTW, Wayne I wish you didn’t bring the baby up. Almost all mothers are mightily proud of their babies. You may see something that isn’t there.
melektaus says
Those are definitely racist viewpoints expressed. The reason many Chinese students don’t respond in class is because of the racism they face in class and in society from assholes like the other students. Often the complainers are those with what I will call EIWMS or Entitled, Insecure, white male syndrome. This disorder causes them to interrupt and disparage any view outside of their narrow viewpoints especially those from a perspective often disparaged by the society they grow up. If they’d listen more and make a better environment more conducive to discussion and abandon their arrogant intolerant attitudes, then participation in discussion will come naturally like they do here. The reason why many ethnic Chinese come here to discuss is because it is a more friendly and tolerant place for all perspectives. Even though we may disagree with many westerners who come here, at least they are allowed to voice their views without the initial dismissive, reflexive, prejudiced, harebrained responses typical of those from modern white entitled society.
Though I have never taught Chinese students, I have once taught kids in the US for a brief time and I cannot imagine any worse at cheating then they were. Cheating is tolerated universally in US high schools. In fact it is condoned and occurs all the time. I have caught students blatantly cheating. The teachers defend the students and will not do anything to stop it. This is because the parents will throw a hissy fit if their little prizes gets expelled from school for cheating. They will always put the blame on others for the failures of their children or themselves as parents.
Wayne says
@jxie
Sorry, I was not clear…fair enough she shows off her child, but it is a different thing her constant references to the child being Eurasian and half white.
I should have been more accurate – she shows off the fact that her child is half-white. Which of course is different from simply being proud of her child. Afterall how many Chinese mothers, or even white mothers for that matter, show off about the race of their child? Hardly any. In fact if they did they would get weird looks.
But these mothers of half-white children often mention the race of their child to a degree which implies there is something funny going on up there – in their heads.
Wayne says
@jxie
Eating cats – yes I have heard in parts of Switzerland and Italy, they eat or have had a tradition of eating cats.
And during war time, cats and dogs are also on the menu – its called famine food in Europe. And French eat horse meat, even now.
And Australians have a celebrated wild cat stew. Where did these wild cats come from —they are not really wild, but rather escaped domestic cats.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6974687.stm
Of course Joyce Lau would never call Australians ‘uncivilized’.
I’m sick of white people talking down about the way Chinese supposedly treat animals. It is simply a disguised form of racism.
Having always kept dogs as basically a member of the family, I myself would never eat dog meat, and admit to feeling rather uncomfortable about the fact that they are eaten in parts of Asia and China.
But most Chinese I know are as affectionate towards animals as Westerners, perhaps more so. My wife use to eat dog, but now she says she could never go back to eating dog.
But in the West there are millions of dogs whose owners abandon them, and these dogs get rounded up, are shot, gassed, or the lucky ones euthanised with an injection. So really there is no difference between the West and the East in this respect —once the dog is dead it could hardly care less whether it is eaten or not.
And at least Chinese generally only kill animals to eat them, not for ‘sport’.
It is only Westerners who go out to shoot animals for fun and call it ‘sport’. Sarah Palin goes out and shoots wolves from a helicopter simply for fun. Wolves are a type of dog, in fact more intelligent than the normal dog. Do whites then condemn themselves for shooting these dogs for fun? No. But I think that is sick shit.
Really I think in general, treatment of animals is appalling in both the West and the East.
But the West has far less excuse because they are rich and developed. And they are the only people who kill animals simply for the fun of it.
Whites, and their Chinese uncle toms like Joyce Lau disgust me when they point the finger at Chinese for purported animal abuse, and call us uncivilised.
They should first look at themselves.
Tommy Banks says
I read Dan’s post and I see exactly where he is coming from. It is wrong to call the post racist when all he does is list the comments he keeps hearing and especially when he takes care to comment that he finds these comments “troubling.” Calling the post racist is like calling someone anti-semetic for writing about the holocaust. There is a difference between reporting facts and joining in with them.
If you found it strange why Dan did the post at all and you don’t see a point to it, why did you run a post on his post? Don’t you realize the point was to expose the hatreds running rampant on U.S. campuses right now so that we can dissect them and figure out what we as responsible adults can do about it, beyond just calling people racists. Dan’s final paragraph sums it all up.
“I know we are going to get comments from people criticizing the students who made the above comments (and me for publishing them), but I think the more fruitful comments will address what can be done to help bridge this massive fissure. I would also love to see people address what this university-level tension portens for future China-US relations. I will note that I have heard Australia and the UK are dealing with the same sorts of issues.
What, if anything, needs to change?”
Dan’s post is one of the most forward-thinking posts I’ve read yet on Chinese-American relations and I am celebrating it. I am a 33 year-old Chinese-American and all I can say is that I sure wish there had been something like this written when I was a kid so that the hatreds I had to go through could have been brought out into the open and discussed so that I could have known that I wasn’t alone and so that others would have known what was happening. We should be thanking Dan for exposing this, not hating on him as though he is to blame for having been the messenger.
YinYang says
Did you read my article up top?
What do you call someone who lists anti-semetic views and says, wow, there’s clearly genuine problems here, what can we do? Plus, I have heard this too in Australia and the U.K.. They hold these very same anti-semetic view too. So, it’s real and across the board because it’s not just within Germany where we have these feelings. And, by the way, the Gypsies are fine. The other non-Aryan’s are fine. We are just singling out the Jews.
The trouble I have is in the lack of balance. That’s stated clearly in my article, by the way.
Tommy Banks says
So it sounds like you are mad at him for reporting that these students were telling him that the problems were with the students from China, not students from other countries. It sounds like you would have preferred that he have just lied and said that these students had the same issues with students from Brazil and from France as well, even though that is not what they were telling him. You are shooting the messenger because you did not like his message. I liked his message because I think it is one that needs tob be delivered, but even if I had not, I would not blame him for having delivered it.
He was reporting what he heard. Since he himself is not a student at a university, I don’t see how he could have provided any more balance than what he did. Also, we are adults. Do you really think anyone for a moment would have changed their views if Dan had said something like “warning, these are the views of only 20 students and these 20 students have not seen all students in the United States from China.”
LOLZ says
I detect a strawman here, not too many people have been calling “Dan” a racist. People are calling some of the views expressed by the people who Dan spoke to racist.
Forward thinking would mean to hear it from both sides and come up with a solution together. Dan has done his best to express the sentiments from one side but not the other. Imaging having a group of whites to complain about black crime in the US with the conclusion that blacks are mostly dangerous criminals based on statistics. This is hardly forward thinking, it’s controversy generating. If I go interview Chinese students in the US and post their whining about how crappy the US is and how shitty their fellow American students treat them (essentially the same as what Dan, NYT, MSN, and numerous other publications have done lately on this subject), what would that accomplish other than making the matters worse?
How about Dan (or someone) following up this post by presenting to the Chinese foreign students the views of their fellow American students and see how the former would say. Now that would be forward thinking.
Charles Liu says
Apparently what Tommy Banks the Chinese-American experienced is still happening today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxP0VnbHSxE
The Chinese guy was saying “mou da la” don’t hit me in Cantonese, I doubt when “they all cheat” and “they don’t socialize/diss me” turn into anti-Chinese violence, Hong Kongers would somehow be magically spared.
Wayne says
@Charles Liu
Let’s face the facts. ‘Yellow peril’ anti asian racism is a big part of the cultural patrimony of the Anglo Saxon ‘settler’ countries of the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
The racism is particularly virulent as it comes as much from the working class of these countries as the ruling class. Early gold-miners, coolies, labourers, were seen as a big threat to white workers, and Chinese would have the shit kicked out of them from California, to New South Wales, to the Otago goldfields of New Zealand.
Just look at the ‘yellow peril’ posters of the time, and you can see that whites hated Chinese with no less intensity than the Nazis hated the Jews.
San Francisco view of Chinese:
http://tinyurl.com/73pcsct
Fu Manchu:
http://tinyurl.com/7je7dm2
This from a New Zealand newspaper in 1907:
http://tpo.tepapa.govt.nz/Images/Picture/TPOPNZ034800.jpg
The racism against the Chinese in the past still exists today. The only difference is it is less overt. And there are legal sanctions against violence.
It does not matter what political system China has, how long you have been in the place. To whites we are simply ‘chinks’ or ‘gooks’ – whether you are a communist, an anti-communist, or even a wannabe tryhard all american boy like poor Danny Chan.
My family background is KMT. My grandfather was one of the most anti-communist Chinese around a lifelong subscriber to ‘Free China Review’. He paid a fucking huge poll tax to get into one of these countries (I will tell which one in due course) My uncles on my mums side fought with the KMT escaped out just before 1949, and one in his 90s use to regularly visit Taiwan for reunions with his war buddies.
All politically OK you would think? Wrong. My granddad got the shit kicked out of him, continually abused as a ‘chink’. My dad said whites would simply address all Chinese as ‘john’, —Chinese did not have a unique name. My dad had it bad at school, and even I remember this rhyme from my early school years:
“ching chong chinaman sitting on a rock,,,along came an indian and chopped off his cock……”
On the ground, students, even Chinese several generations in these countries get shit.
And these racist undercurrents inform the policies of these Western countries towards China, including the recent Australian US statement on China’s supposed increasing influence in the Asia Pacific region.
And you are 100% right Charles Liu.
The average white in these countries hardly knows the difference between a Japanese and a Chinese and a Korea – let alone split hairs between various Chinese groups. Who the fuck does Dan Harris think he is fucking fooling?
Refer the infamous Vincent Chin case – the chinese guy is clubbed to death by auto-workers who have lost their jobs to Japanese competition (or so they perceived).
If Dan Harris really believes that the average white student can separate, or even bother separating out Taiwanese and Hong Kongers from mainland Chinese, he is a moron.
But I doubt he is a moron. He sticks the thing in about Taiwanese and Hong Kongers to disguise the obvious racism behind his article.
Again. Face the facts. Anglo Saxon culture is the most viciously racist culture the world has ever seen. And deep down, they hate yellow faces (unless of course it is a loser white dude with his Chinese female dog).
Wayne says
This gave me a chuckle:
“He [Mr Harris] also qualified the students whom he got the complaints were “sophisticated, intelligent, and well-traveled.”
Yeah……and so are the commentators at Peking Duck eh? All highly educated, live in China, even have Chinese female dogs……all, in Mr Harris’s mind must qualify as fucking Einsteins!
Wayne says
Look. Again. Lets seek truth from facts.
Chinese are the highest academic performers in all these Western countries (bar perhaps Jews).
We are the most represented at all the mos prestigious schools, in the PhD programmes, as researchers in science, engineering, medicine, technology.
Sure. Some Asian students have some issues. But overall whites have more to learn from us when it comes to academics than us from them.
We are doing OK in the Western education system. That is what fucks these whites off.
So they nitpick about these footling little issues – like the accent of some new students, or the fact is they don’t speak loudly enough in class. Fuck off….it is just these whites are jealous.
Tell them to go diu nei lo mou sei chau hay!
Rhan says
阿wayne 大佬，驶晤驶去到甘尽爆粗？我估你一定被鬼妹飞过。话吾定就是条半唐蕃joyce细妹?
raventhorn says
@Charles Liu
It’s not the 1st time, Dan managed to relay some rather racist opinions.
For example, not long ago, he put up this post, http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/will_india_challenge_china.html
where Dan meets 2 British Sisters, 1 of whom said of India, “entire country smells of human feces from the moment you get there until the moment you leave.”
Dan Harris then jokingly refer to the decision of some Westerners NOT going to India as being influenced by the “feces factor” (He admits making up that term himself).
And quite a few people took offense to it.
*There is a point where RELAYING a racist message is racism.
For example, if you say, “My parents, siblings, cousins, friends say you are a (insert racist label)”, you can’t excuse yourself by “Oh, I didn’t say it, just my parents, siblings, cousins, friends said it.”
One reads Dan Harris’ recent relaying of rather racist messages, one wonders, Dan is NOT saying these things?
Of all the people in the world, all the students in the world, he just “consistently” bumps into ones who say such “EXTREME” racist stereotypical things??! And THEN, remember them long enough, or puts enough efforts, into tabulating them into statistics, articles.
If Dan’s purpose is to demonstrate the continual existence of racism in the West, that point is certainly being missed from his articles, and by some of his “fans” apparently (who thinks that Dan said what needed to be said, which turns out to be the stereotypes).
So I guess, we will just judge Dan by the message that his “fans” thinks he’s sending.
raventhorn says
Why “socializing” may not be good for “creativity”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/opinion/sunday/the-rise-of-the-new-groupthink.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
*On that note, I would say “rote memorization” in China is not as “un-creative” as people think. I recall, when I was child in China, being completely amazed at how many different and unique methods the Chinese kids come up with on their own, in order to memorize all of their class material.
See, “rote memorization” may be deceptively complex and difficult, because the Chinese education system does NOT teach any standardized method to “rote memorization”, so in consequence, the Chinese kids learn to experiment on their own to come up with the best methods of memorization that tailors to their own individual needs. ALL the while, without the aid of any devices, nothing but their own brain cells.
Westerners may dismiss the Chinese “rote memorization” as “un-creative”. But I would counter, You try to come up with a method that will allow you to memorize all those facts. (Most Americans have difficulties remembering the bare 200 years of US history).
I believe, the Chinese “rote memorization” education system, teaches Chinese kids to find their own methods and solutions, creatively, because what works for 1 kid does not necessarily work for another. (And the hard lessons of failure, try again, failure, try again, until success).
jxie says
@raventhorn
Personally wouldn’t call “feces factor” as a racist comment. Actually comments to the same effects have been said by many people who have traveled to India. A common theme by many traveling to India in the whole duration is being either violently sick or perceptually in a semi-sick mode — some of these travelers I know are tough SOBs who almost can shoot for “Man vs. Wild.” There are some rare breeds though, which I wish being a member of, can take all kind of conditions in stride. If you think about it, even the bad sanitary condition in India has got to be better than the West as late as a century or two ago.
Saying India’s sanitary condition is worse than many other countries, isn’t racist; saying ethnic Indians are innately dirtier than other, is.
Anyway, everything is relative. For instance, golfers in America spit on courses, but it’s frown upon in Europe — holding it back sometimes can be hard to do especially after you inhale a large quantity of pollen on course. One thing I have learned to appreciate is the availability of bidet in Europe and in Japan (especially in Japan). In comparison, America is like medieval — who wants his/her private part smells badly and his/her under garment slightly soiled during the middle of a day after you finish the deed? I love to watch a TV show “Californication”, but have to call it BS. How the heck can you get down like that in the middle of day with only American toilets surrounding you? Can they all be into water/hard sports?
Sorry for being so OT.
Ray says
@jxie
I would like to offer an opinion. We are talking about splitting hair here. When one use term such as “entire country”, “you people” etc, I believe it is already offensive if not racist. For example, can I go to a NYC ghetto and say “this whole place is the cess pool of humanity”?
When one is laughing at human suffering and poverty then say that he is not racist, there is a big hole in the argument. Most rich westerners who take things for granted do that. This is the discrimination China is facing right now.
Also, can I go to the US, Canada, Australia, NZ etc and say in the face of the people there that “this country is stolen, go home” etc and be thought as being fair and objective?
On a side note, this is why China’s diplomatic charm is working in rest of Asia, Africa and S.America. Chinese’s government has been on the receiving end of patronizing statement and know what it is like. Being tactful is not being insincere, being rude is not necessary being truthful or sincere.
Ray says
@raventhorn
Most people didn’t realize that necessity is the mother of invention. This Chinese military shovel showed that what simple innovation can brought about. It is pretty funny too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b60OZhrTB6o
jxie says
In “The Fog of War”, a film narrated by McNamara on the starting of the Vietnam War, he recalled his school days and was rather proud of his academic performance: keeping up with his Jewish and Chinese peers, as an Irish boy.
Whether IQ is hereditary or how much is, is a rather anti-PC subject nowadays. Based on some tests they conducted, IQ scores of Ashkenazi Jews were on average at 115 to 120. Coincidentally, it’s about the same scores of the Zhenjiang school children tested a few years ago.
Charles Liu says
@Wayne
“Chinese are the highest academic performers in all these Western countries”
Not real, didn’t you hear, all the ones from China cheat.
Charles Liu says
You know, the generalization that students from China grew up in a culture of cheating, therefore they must be cheating right now, is just ingrained anti-China sentiment reinforcing prejudice. Here’s a report about the student leader who got caught cheating:
http://english.cri.cn/6909/2012/01/17/2821s676603.htm
Does it look like schools in China allow cheating? This is even from English language source. Where do we find news about academic standards in Chinese source?
jxie says
@Ray
So no comment on the rather light-hearted part of bidet to water/hard sports? My whole point was America, perceived as a very developed nation, can be viewed as “uncivilized” or “dirty” per certain standards. The lesson is, the comment of “feces factor” is crude and may not help you to win friends and influence people (but it’s not racist per se, which as a word is rather abused). Personally would rather have a very high threshold of being offended by comments negative to Chinese, and a very low tolerance of me potentially offending other people — it’s just good practice.
You are absolutely right on China’s diplomatic charm worldwide. Chinese diplomats for more than once told roomful of Asian/African/Latin American people along the line that, we were the victims of colonialism and hegemony, we would never become colonizer and hegemon.
melektaus says
The cheating accusation is really a result of a combination of psychological factors. Projection and an insecurity complex. Studies routinely show that most students in the west have cheated (from the US to Canada to GB to Australia). Yes, most students. Also, many whites feel threatened academically and intellectually by Asians and must find ways to reduce their anxiety over those feelings of inadequacy. Those they invent the cheating myth to feel better about their own or from those they love’s sub-par performance on academic subjects.
Ray says
@jxie
Sorry didn’t see it directed at me. I can tell what you meant in a joking way.
Allen says
Interesting take from the china law blog (not china law blog) weighing on the topic.
http://www.thechinalawblog.com/2012/01/china-experts-are-everywhere-according.html
YinYang says
A much better take on international students at University of Washington by the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/education/international-students-pay-top-dollar-at-us-colleges.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=global-home
“Taking More Seats on Campus, Foreigners Also Pay the Freight”
The second highest “Reader Picked” comment by a professor reads as follows:
raventhorn says
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/11/audit-north-dakota-university-awarded-unearned-degrees/
North Dakota school caught in luring Chinese students into “easy” diploma programs for money.
Hmm….
I know, the ONLY fair thing to do right now, is for US Universities to investigate themselves and if any of them are “cheating”, they should give the money back to the Chinese students, (and compensate the students for lost time).
It’s “bad out there”. Well yes, these Chinese students are paying good (and very large amount for international students) money for education, and these US schools are giving them worthless diplomas.
Allen says
@raventhorn
Not surprising. I sort of guessed something like this may be happening in this comment.
jxie says
http://www.economist.com/node/21546027
This is the same University of Washington?
Skippy says
We now have yet another racist anti-Chinese blogger talking about how bad it is for everyone that Chinese students are allowed into the academy. This time it is the All Roads Lead to China blog. I note that his English is so bad that it isn’t even clear to me that he is an American, but that doesn’t stop him from going after us as though we are nothing but trash. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/12/us-northdakota-universitydegrees-idUSTRE81B10D20120212 I hope you take this racist to task as well and that you do it quickly before his site also becomes white power fodder. Thanks.
scaramouch says
Thanks Skippy for pointing out yet another blogger who is trying to shove his western ways down our collective throats. What are we going to do about this?
allroads says
@Skippy
@Skippy / Scaramouch – The only thing that is clear to me is that neither of you actually read my post. If you had, then you would see that I was largely taking a negative stance towards Dan’s original post, and the comments that I myself felt were racist.
@Skippy – I am not sure why you have referenced that link, but it is not one that I wrote or referenced. It was included in a comment by someone, not by me, and I have yet to read it.
Oh, and I am American, a basic fact you would have picked up by reading the About me page.
R
http://www.allroadsleadtochina.com
Skippy says
@allroads,
I meant to link over to your article here: http://www.allroadsleadtochina.com/2012/02/12/all-chinese-students-are-___-part-2/. You are racist because you twice mentioned Dan’s original post and neither time did you make any effort to point out how racist Dan and the student comments were. Your linking to that post gave Dan even more readers and that just propogated the original racist act. On top of it, your posts were called “All Chinese students are” as though all Chinese are one certain way. Comments like that are the definition of racism. I thought you were not American because your post had so many misspellings and grammatical errors. Guess that should not surprise in light of the sorts of things you believe. You are also racist for allowing such a terrible comment as the one that linked to the article on North Dakota. That comment said hundreds of Chinese had cheated but the article said nothing of the sort and yet you allowed it. What you wrote is shameful and I just hope that Hidden Harmonies writes a blog post on the racism of the white China bloggers and is sure to include you right in it with Dan and with Peking Duck and Danwei and Shanghaiist as all of you hate China and that is clear.
Charles Liu says
This attack on Chinese students near USC is very suspicious:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ihx7TT6CKi1D50BpFGfNfOgyrP8g?docId=5f9332a5dfc4433bb37639090f9034aa
The car jack story makes no sense – car jackers usually don’t shoot up the ride or flee in foot after hurting people inside (they take the car.)
colin says
@Charles Liu
Considering trade in higher education is the one bright the US has over China, authorities had best get to the bottom of it to reassure their chinese customers.
web says
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