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Something to chuckle about #3

February 5th, 2009 Leave a comment Go to comments

One can learn something new everyday. I have known for a while that hanging a flag upside down is a sign of distress, but never realized it could be applied to the Union Jack until now. Apparently, the UK national flag can be distinguished in its orientation by observing the placement of the wider white stripes. Oh well, I feel sorry for the poor staff member who arranged the table for the ceremony with visiting Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao. One cannot help but imagine the symbolism of this gaffe.

uk-flag-upside-down

Of course, this incident is not unlike the subtle yet seriously mistaken form of traditional Chinese greeting shown in one of the official Olympic posters last year. Then again, we don’t utilize that greeting in China much nowadays yet the British probably see their flag everyday.

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  1. BC
    February 5th, 2009 at 12:13 | #1

    No big deal. Either way it looks the same to me.

  2. February 5th, 2009 at 14:02 | #2

    The Union Jack can be hung upside-down (the red cross of St. Patrick should be underneath the white cross of St. Andrew in the bottom left corner) but the only people who usually notice are people like Ian Paisley – it’s hard to see at a distance anyway. Certainly no-one is going to get very worked up about this.

  3. Charles Liu
    February 5th, 2009 at 16:50 | #3

    Bunch of kids in UK noted this is technically a crime. Maybe the flag is made in China? 😎

    BTW did anyone notice during the Beijing Olympics opening ceremoney, a prominently featured PRC flag was upside down?

  4. DJ
    February 5th, 2009 at 16:55 | #4

    Charles Liu,

    You are referring to the flag held by the young earthquake surviver coming out together with Yao Ming, right?

  5. ChinkTalk
    February 5th, 2009 at 17:04 | #5

    Reminds me of the movie ” In the Valley of Elah”.

    A very touching movie.

    Tommy Lee Jones was superb.

    I have lots of respect for Americans because they have conscience. They self examine and correct themselves. The election of Obama is truly inspirational. The Americans will correct and do what is right. A sign of a true superpower. The UK by contrast is an empire no more. The British clings onto a false sense of superiority and in permanent denial. Prince Charles was a wife abuser and nobody dare to confront this issue. Their own Princess was murdered and they are too whimpy to stand up to tyranny. Yea, I could see the metaphor in the upside-down flag. Did Sharon Stone say “karma”?

  6. Charles Liu
    February 5th, 2009 at 17:23 | #6

    Yup DJ. Also there seem to be different flavors of the Union Jack, including red stripe in the middle, or symetrically underneath the white stripe.

  7. ChinkTalk
    February 6th, 2009 at 07:03 | #7

    FOARP – Don’t get offended by my generalization. My intention is not to insult the British but just something I noticed and experienced personally. I could be wrong in my assessement.

    I admire a lot of Americans, but I have yet to meet one British person that treated me equally.

  8. S.K. Cheung
    February 6th, 2009 at 07:44 | #8

    I wonder how a Japanese person would indicate distress with their flag 🙂

  9. February 6th, 2009 at 08:13 | #9

    @Ctalk – I can only conclude that you have not met that many British people.

  10. ChinkTalk
    February 6th, 2009 at 15:07 | #10

    FOARP – #9 You are right. Like people critisize China without ever been to China; I should not have my predigious against the British people based on the few that I have met. Unfortunately , the odds are absolute. I always started out very friendly and wanting to be friends when I first meet British people (like with every other group of peopel), but the end result with the British is that I always get stumped. I always ended up being mad and disappointed. And in the public arena, I never see any British public figure say anything positive about the Chinese.

    I am always skeptical when I see a British person who smiles at me.

    I guess I will have to visit Britain to find a British person that will change my view.

  11. Raj
    February 6th, 2009 at 20:25 | #11

    I am always skeptical when I see a British person who smiles at me.

    How would you know they’re British just by looking at them?

    Don’t generalise. You wouldn’t like it when people talk about Chinese people and China in absolute terms (negatively) so don’t do the same to others.

    And in the public arena, I never see any British public figure say anything positive about the Chinese.

    Then you’ve never watched a UK TV show about China, or listened to nice comments from politicians about UK-China ties. I can’t believe you have such a strong prejudice based on pure ignorance.

  12. Cissy
    February 6th, 2009 at 20:43 | #12

    I think it’s the accent. British accent makes the speaker sound more arrogant, while the “flat” american accent make it sound down to earth. Most of the british people I met are reasonable. The worst experience are with those british Pied-Noir. Is there an english term for that? Colonization distored the colonized, as well as the colonizer.

  13. ChinkTalk
    February 6th, 2009 at 21:06 | #13

    Raj#11

    I am admitting to it and not denying it. And I said it without FOARP’s challenge to my statements. I also said I would like to meet someone who can change my view.

    I mentioned that my prejudice (spelled predigious) was based on my past bad experiences with British immigrants in Canada. And I would like to change that.

    I believe that I should even go to Britain; to find someone to change my view.

    I also said that FOARP is right that I have not met enough British people. That I should meet more to change my view.

    I think you have UNFAIRLY judged me.

  14. Raj
    February 6th, 2009 at 21:55 | #14

    I believe that I should even go to Britain; to find someone to change my view.

    Please do visit the UK, but I wouldn’t aim to meet people to change your views. Just aim to have a good time.

    I think you have UNFAIRLY judged me.

    Why? I was brusque with you, but I was responding to the very extraordinary statement that “in the public arena, [you] never see any British public figure say anything positive about the Chinese”. If you meant to admit that is your fault, ok. But it came across as an excuse.

  15. February 6th, 2009 at 22:19 | #15

    Tony Blair – to the extent he is a British public figure – did have a few things nice to say about China.

    But I probably would agree that in U.S. and British media (and I assume also German and French media), news about China are more often than not depicted in a distorted, negative manner…

  16. Raj
    February 6th, 2009 at 22:58 | #16

    But I probably would agree that in U.S. and British media (and I assume also German and French media), news about China are more often than not depicted in a distorted, negative manner…

    Possibly, but you’ll find that, in the UK at least, “negative/problematic” news is regarded as being more newsworthy than good stories. That applies to domestic, not just foreign, news. Compare that to Chinese State TV which has been accused of broadcasting generally positive news about China and bad news about the rest of the world (or at least concerning countries like the US and European states).

  17. ChinkTalk
    February 6th, 2009 at 23:50 | #17

    Raj – are you British

  18. S.K. Cheung
    February 7th, 2009 at 09:46 | #18

    To Raj #16:
    agreed. Bad news sells papers, and probably internet advertising. It’s not news if the house is not on fire; but it might be news if it is. So if media generally report bad news about everybody, it seems silly to point to “bad news” reports about China as a sign that they’re picking on China.

  19. Raj
    February 7th, 2009 at 10:18 | #19

    Raj – are you British

    Given I’ve supplied that answer many times on this blog, perhaps you could tell me about yourself first such as where you were born, grew up and where you current reside/what your nationality is. Thanks.

  20. ChinkTalk
    February 7th, 2009 at 16:50 | #20

    Raj #19

    Fair enough. I am a fourth generation Chinese Canadian. My father’s side is Toisan and my mother’s side is Hakka. I took after my mother both in physique and temperament. My grandfather had three wives and my grandmother was wife no. 3. My great grandfather came here to build the railway and my grandfather came to Canada when he was a young man. I think there were more than 20 or 30 years difference between my first grandmother and my grandmother. So some of the kids of the first grandmother were older or about the same age as my grandmother.

    I have no relatives in China. I have absolutely no connections with China. And I would forget that I am Chinese if white people would stop reminding me of it. I am what people called a banana because I am yellow outside and white inside. But I think the ripening of the banana is happening because of my awakening to the injustices done to the Chinese people by the Canadian (Western) media and government.

    It is with the rise of China that the Chinese diaspora worldwide gained voice.

    I find that Western human rights is reactionary rather than voluntary especially when it comes to the Chinese and Aboriginals. An example would be one of my uncles graduated from university but ended working in a restaurant because no one would hire him. White people would say that things have changed now. Has it really? Name me one CEO in a public corporation that is Chinese Canadian. Name me one significant newscaster that is Chinese; I am talking about head editors or head of a department, not some minial news reporter or weather girl.

    I noticed that people from China never got any positions but people from Taiwan, Korea, Japan were given more significant jobs. I think the West is propping up the potential ally axis; that is hiring people from potential allies like Taiwan, Korea, India, etc.

    Chinese Canadians have been in Canada for over 200 years; but there are not a lot of notables within the mainstream society.

    It is after the Beijing Olympics and a united worldwide voice against media injustices to the Chinese that now you start to see fairer exposure of the Chinese in the public domain. Why didn’t they do that before, why do we always have to fight for every bit of justice. Western human rights is reactionary.

    In the whole western world including Japan, the Americans are the only ones worthy of respect. If the Americans reject Obama because he is black. He will never be president no matter how smart he is. Likewise, no matter how smart some of the Chinese Canadians are, they can never get anywhere if they are suppressed.

    Raj, I am very interested in your background and you experiences; and of course, your opinions.

  21. Raj
    February 7th, 2009 at 18:43 | #21

    Thanks, though you didn’t have to write quite as much as that.

    It seems odd that in your experience white people keep reminding you that you’re “Chinese”. Although I’m always interesting in learning a little bit about where people’s families come from, I have always taken the view that if you hold a passport from a country you are more than justified to identify with that place – your ethnicity is irrelevant if you make the choice. If you had a UK passport and said you were British, not Chinese, I would defend your stance regardless of who attacked you for saying it. Many other Britons would do the same.

    I can’t comment about Canada because I’m not Canadian and haven’t lived there. I’m British and was raised in the UK. I would say that here “Chinese” people have decent opportunities. They’re regarded as hard-working and law-abiding. Sure, there’s going to be some discrimination, but there’s discrimination against Caucasians in the UK too.

    But I think you have to ask yourself, are “Chinese” especially hard-done by in Canada and/or the UK? It’s all very well asking where the “Chinese” CEOs and TV presenters are, but how many of them apply for the jobs compared to Caucasians? In the UK the reason you don’t get many ethnic minority MPs is that they don’t put themselves forward for election in the first place. I know that here many “Chinese” parents want their children to work hard at university and get a job that pays well – whether it has a profile or not is irrelevant. Indeed, careers like journalism and politics are “forbidden” because they can pay peanuts or not work out.

    As for people from other countries getting jobs in Europe and the Americas, your opinion is a bit racist. Have you considered that they were considered the best people for the job out of those who applied, brought their own capital or special skills, etc? Maybe there really is significant discrimination in Canada, but I can’t do anything about that – I can only speak for my country where I don’t believe “Chinese” are discriminated against nearly as much.

    [“Chinese” = people with Chinese ethnic origins regardless of nationality]

  22. S.K. Cheung
    February 7th, 2009 at 22:48 | #22

    To CTalk #20:
    “Name me one CEO in a public corporation that is Chinese Canadian. Name me one significant newscaster that is Chinese” – let’s not forget that Chinese-Canadians make up about 3% (I think, correct me if I’m wrong) of our population. So just based on averages, for every 33 public corporations in Canada, there should be one CHinese CEO. Are there that many public corporations in Canada? I would certainly guess that there aren’t 33 “significant newscasters” in Canada. So does the absence of a Chinese member in that club prove ongoing systematic racial discrimination?

    In addition, as Raj said, you have to apply for those jobs to get them. So do you actually know of anyone who applied to be a CEO or “significant newscaster” who was passed over for someone with lesser qualifications? Unless and until you do, all you’ve said is innuendo. And I’m not sure that’s helpful in the effort to combat racism.

  23. ChinkTalk
    February 7th, 2009 at 23:40 | #23

    Raj#21
    “It’s all very well asking where the “Chinese” CEOs and TV presenters are, but how many of them apply for the jobs compared to Caucasians? In the UK the reason you don’t get many ethnic minority MPs is that they don’t put themselves forward for election in the first place. I know that here many “Chinese” parents want their children to work hard at university and get a job that pays well – whether it has a profile or not is irrelevant. Indeed, careers like journalism and politics are “forbidden” because they can pay peanuts or not work out.”

    I was discussing this problem with a gentlman from Hong Kong who was a member of the armed units guarding the border between China and Hong Kong before the take over. He said all of the officers were British. But all of the privates and low level people were Chinese. Are you saying that all of the Chinese at the bottom don’t want to be officers and don’t want to apply.

    Raj “As for people from other countries getting jobs in Europe and the Americas, your opinion is a bit racist. Have you considered that they were considered the best people for the job out of those who applied, brought their own capital or special skills, etc? ”

    Like I said, my uncle who was university educated in the 50’s and never could find a job offering and in the 50’s, if you have an university degree you would get a job. By complaining about racism I am branded a racist.

    Raj “Thanks, though you didn’t have to write quite as much as that.”

    I am a proud Canadian, just because I complain does not mean I do not love my country. But isn’t this is what democracy and freedom of expression is all about. People from China always say that I am so open which they always attribute to Canadian Borned Chinese -CBCs. But perhaps people from the old countries like Britain are less open about themselves. The problem is that I am open and I thought people would be open with me as well. Sometimes people (not you) call me a sucker but that is the way I am brought up.

  24. Raj
    February 8th, 2009 at 00:30 | #24

    He said all of the officers were British. But all of the privates and low level people were Chinese. Are you saying that all of the Chinese at the bottom don’t want to be officers and don’t want to apply.

    I doubt that there were any restrictions on Chinese becoming officers in the British Army in 1997 if they could pass the course. If you doubt me you can write to the Ministry of Defence (London) and ask them outright how many ethnic Chinese officers there were in the armed forces either in the UK or overseas forces. If there were no/few officers in 1997 I have a feeling it was down to the better educated Chinese being told to go into civilian professions by their parents. In the UK I hear senior officers regularly complain that they just cannot get people from ethnic minorities to apply in the numbers that (as a proportion of the population) they should do.

    By complaining about racism I am branded a racist.

    No. You sound racist by complaining about foreigners getting jobs. Just because your uncle didn’t get a job and they did doesn’t mean they were hired with discrimination against Chinese in mind. That does not mean there was no discrimination against your uncle, but you shouldn’t think nonsense about some sort of strategy to keep Chinese down between Canadians, Taiwanese, Japanese and Indians or whatever.

    I am a proud Canadian, just because I complain does not mean I do not love my country.

    I never implied that was the case. I complain about the UK frequently when given the chance. The only point I was making was that I had not required such detailed explanation. You gave more information, that’s fine.

  25. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 00:53 | #25

    Raj#24
    1. “”He said all of the officers were British. But all of the privates and low level people were Chinese. Are you saying that all of the Chinese at the bottom don’t want to be officers and don’t want to apply.

    I doubt that there were any restrictions on Chinese becoming officers in the British Army in 1997 if they could pass the course. If you doubt me you can write to the Ministry of Defence (London) and ask them outright how many ethnic Chinese officers there were in the armed forces either in the UK or overseas forces. If there were no/few officers in 1997 I have a feeling it was down to the better educated Chinese being told to go into civilian professions by their parents. In the UK I hear senior officers regularly complain that they just cannot get people from ethnic minorities to apply in the numbers that (as a proportion of the population) they should do. “”

    I guess all the black people were telling their kids not to think of the presidency before Obama.

    “”By complaining about racism I am branded a racist.

    No. You sound racist by complaining about foreigners getting jobs. Just because your uncle didn’t get a job and they did doesn’t mean they were hired with discrimination against Chinese in mind. That does not mean there was no discrimination against your uncle, but you shouldn’t think nonsense about some sort of strategy to keep Chinese down between Canadians, Taiwanese, Japanese and Indians or whatever.””

    Going back to what I said in #20 – “Name me one CEO in a public corporation that is Chinese Canadian. Name me one significant newscaster that is Chinese; I am talking about head editors or head of a department, not some minial news reporter or weather girl.”

    There are human rights issues in Canada as pointed out the UN: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/090203/canada/canada_us_un_rights

    And to me, Canada can be and will be better than what it is today.

    By having a truly free Canada, we can proceed to help countries like China.

  26. Raj
    February 8th, 2009 at 01:35 | #26

    I guess all the black people were telling their kids not to think of the presidency before Obama.

    Now you’re being childish. I’m sure that even before the end of black oppression many children were encouraged by their parents to go into politics. Whereas it’s also true that middle class Chinese families (to say nothing of the upper class ones) want their children to be lawyers, accountants and the like. They don’t think soldiers are bad people, they just don’t want their children to have that job. Those kids usually do go for those sorts of careers rather than the military.

    Now I don’t know why you find this hard to accept. Is it because you think being an officer in the Army is the most desirable job one could have, that you don’t like to think that so many Chinese parents would push their children away from this line of work, that Chinese kids would listen to their parents like that or don’t want to join the military themselves?

    I know that the UK military has been trying to recruit officers from ethnic minorities for years, so you can accuse me of being a liar and we’ll stop the discussion right here. Or you can accept what I say as the truth. Don’t try to have it both ways.

    By having a truly free Canada, we can proceed to help countries like China.

    Sorry, there will never be a “truly free Canada”. That would require the end of all discrimination, all crime, etc, which will never happen given there will always be bullies and racists. We can always strive to be better, but given that countries like Canada and the UK do a relatively good job on things like civil rights and democracy we have a responsibility to help other countries like China now rather than vainly hope for some utopian future before we lift a finger for anyone else.

  27. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 03:26 | #27

    Raj#26
    “”Now you’re being childish. I’m sure that even before the end of black oppression many children were encouraged by their parents to go into politics. Whereas it’s also true that middle class Chinese families (to say nothing of the upper class ones) want their children to be lawyers, accountants and the like. They don’t think soldiers are bad people, they just don’t want their children to have that job. Those kids usually do go for those sorts of careers rather than the military.””

    My uncle William went to school for engineering. He never got offered a job. My uncle Mark was in the Canadian Military during WWII, but he was not allowed to be in the regular army, he was stationed in the interior. My uncle Clarence was in the American military and was sent to Italy. My son is in the Canadian Reserves. You are stereotyping Chinese people by saying that they want to avoid the military.

    Raj#26
    “Now I don’t know why you find this hard to accept. Is it because you think being an officer in the Army is the most desirable job one could have, that you don’t like to think that so many Chinese parents would push their children away from this line of work, that Chinese kids would listen to their parents like that or don’t want to join the military themselves? ”

    To say that Chinese parents don’t want their kids to join the military is so wrong. You are watching too much Mulan or somehting. During WWII, Chinese Canadian had the highest number of volunteers proportinately for the military. And their work was examplary.

    Raj #26
    “Sorry, there will never be a “truly free Canada”. That would require the end of all discrimination, all crime, etc, which will never happen given there will always be bullies and racists. We can always strive to be better, but given that countries like Canada and the UK do a relatively good job on things like civil rights and democracy we have a responsibility to help other countries like China now rather than vainly hope for some utopian future before we lift a finger for anyone else.”

    You better be damn right there is going to be a truly free Canada. Maybe you have lower standards for your country but I have every confidence and intention of seeing my Canada true and free.

  28. S.K. Cheung
    February 8th, 2009 at 04:52 | #28

    To CTalk #23 and #25:
    “Like I said, my uncle who was university educated in the 50’s…” – I’m inclined to believe that racism was rampant back then. But we’re now 50-60years hence, and I’m not sure those experiences are relevant today, or that they are reflective of the environment today.

    “There are human rights issues in Canada as pointed out the UN…” – but what does that have to do with the subject of this thread, or of this blog?

  29. February 8th, 2009 at 10:35 | #29

    @CTalk – The reason why there were no Chinese soldiers in the HK garrison is simple – HK citizens were forbidden to be recruited into the army under the treaties made with the PRC covering the UK military presence in Hong Kong. HK citizens were allowed to be recruited in an auxiliary role, but not officially into the armed forces – and hence none of them were allowed to become officers in the military.

    I cannot for the life of me think why you are bashing on Canada. Canada is as far as I know the only country in the world outside of Asia that has had a person of Chinese origin (and a former famous newscaster I might add) as official head of state. In fact Adrienne Clarkson’s background as a Toishanese born in Hong kong is not dissimilar to your own.

    Finally, I guess I should also add that amongst my acquaintances here in the UK I count an ethnic Chinese officer-cadet at Sanhurst military academy, three people called Raj (why does everyone assume that Raj – with whom I often disagree – is not British simply because of his name?), and a person of mixed African/Indian extraction who is hoping to become a Conservative Party MP at the next election.

  30. Raj
    February 8th, 2009 at 12:16 | #30

    To say that Chinese parents don’t want their kids to join the military is so wrong.

    There’s a big difference between fighting in a major war and deliberately joining the full-time military when it isn’t necessary. The examples you mentioned are mostly from WWII, which although is good to hear doesn’t prove that in peace-time middle-class Chinese parents prefer their kids to go into civil professions today. Discrimination 60+ years ago doesn’t mean the same happens today.

    Your son is in the reserves. Did he ask to be in the officer reserves and was refused based on his ethnicity? And the fact he is only in reserves sort of proves my point. He has another job that will fill most of his time. I was talking about the full-time military.

    You are stereotyping Chinese people by saying that they want to avoid the military.

    What percentage of the young “Chinese” you know (under 30) have applied to go into the full-time armed forces in Canada (not reserves)?

    Furthermore, are you going to respond to my point about the UK military wanting to recruit people from ethnic minorities? I would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that you’re wrong at least about my country even if you want to think bad things of your own.

    You better be damn right there is going to be a truly free Canada.

    Whether or not it is possible there is no need to focus inward. It costs nothing to offer advice on how to reform another’s judiciary or political system and does not mean one cannot fine-tune one’s own country’s systems.

    But if you’re saying that Canada must become “truly free” (as I said, how are you going to eliminate all crime and discrimination – mass brain surgery?) before it tries to help China then you’re condemning others much less fortunate than yourself to suffering needlessly.

    +++

    FOARP, thanks I thought there might be some sort of restriction like that. Sadly my HK history lessons at uni didn’t extend to agreements on military recruitment.

  31. February 8th, 2009 at 12:47 | #31

    @Ctalk – Frankly I find this comparison based on the way people of Chinese origin were treated in the Canadian and US militaries during WWII ridiculous as a way of trying to justify describing Canada as somehow ‘not free’. The existence of human rights issues within in a country is no reason to describe it as such, especially given that the UN has identified such problems in every country of significant size. Canadians can wake up in the morning, read free and uncensored media, form political parties, and exercise free speech without fear of being arrested and punished without due process. They can also select their leadership through free and fair election. This is freedom, like it or loath it, and you seem to lean towards the latter.

    Furthermore, what you have said above was pretty much free of any historical accuracy. As even the slightest bit of research would have told you, the US military was segregated along racial lines until the mid-fifties, and no, there were no Chinese officers in the US military until after that. There are simply no grounds whatsoever on which anyone could argue that ethnic Chinese were better treated in the US than they were in Canada – in fact, given US laws on miscegenation which were in place at the time, quite the contrary.

    You refer to a Canadian relative of yours not being sent overseas as evidence of discrimination – but what evidence do you have to support this? Even a cursory review of Canadian politics during WWII shows that the Canadian role in WWII was very unpopular amongst a large portion of the population – particularly in Quebec, and that the Canadian government was loath to send soldiers overseas as a result – indeed Canadians had to volunteers specifically for overseas service to be considered, and the majority were satisfied with home service. Why do you think this was specifically to do with discrimination against him personally?

    In short, I would not spend so much time dissing countries based on half-remembered and half-learned history. The fact that you do not even seem to know who the last governor of Canada was suggests that you do not actually know that much about that country.

  32. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:03 | #32

    FOARP#29

    “I cannot for the life of me think why you are bashing on Canada. Canada is as far as I know the only country in the world outside of Asia that has had a person of Chinese origin (and a former famous newscaster I might add) as official head of state. In fact Adrienne Clarkson’s background as a Toishanese born in Hong kong is not dissimilar to your own. “”

    You really don’t know how she was treated by the Canadian press do you.

  33. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:05 | #33

    S.K.Cheung

    per Raj”perhaps you could tell me about yourself first such as where you were born, grew up and where you current reside/what your nationality is. Thanks.”

  34. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:09 | #34

    FOARP#31

    “You refer to a Canadian relative of yours not being sent overseas as evidence of discrimination ”

    Never said that.

  35. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:12 | #35

    FOARP#31

    “The fact that you do not even seem to know who the last governor of Canada was suggests that you do not actually know that much about that country.”

    How do you know that.I didn’t know who the last governor GENERALof Canada was.

  36. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:16 | #36

    Raj#30

    You are stereotyping Chinese people by saying that they want to avoid the military.

    “What percentage of the young “Chinese” you know (under 30) have applied to go into the full-time armed forces in Canada (not reserves)?”

    Would you know?

  37. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:17 | #37

    Raj#30

    “But if you’re saying that Canada must become “truly free” (as I said, how are you going to eliminate all crime and discrimination – mass brain surgery?) ”

    I am not saying that, I would never insult you

  38. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:20 | #38

    FOARP#29

    ” I guess I should also add that amongst my acquaintances here in the UK I count an ethnic Chinese officer-cadet at Sanhurst military academy, three people called Raj (why does everyone assume that Raj – with whom I often disagree – is not British simply because of his name”

    I never even got into this

  39. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:30 | #39

    FOARP#29
    “I cannot for the life of me think why you are bashing on Canada. Canada is as far as I know the only country in the world outside of Asia that has had a person of Chinese origin (and a former famous newscaster I might add) as official head of state. In fact Adrienne Clarkson’s background as a Toishanese born in Hong kong is not dissimilar to your own. ”

    In BC we also had David Lam as Lieutenant Governor General. But that does not deviate from other issues.

    FOARP – I like you because you have the integrity to admit you are wrong on the “Sinoism” issue. I will work with you to clear any misunderstandings about how I feel about my country and perhaps your misintepretation of my point of view.

    For people who are wasting my time with cheap arguments, (from my own personal opinion), I will ignore them.

  40. Raj
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:33 | #40

    CT

    Would you know?

    For me, the answer is 0% in the UK. I asked YOU what the answer was in your experience – i.e. the young Chinese you know.

    I see you are still avoiding what I’m saying about UK recruitment. I will assume you aren’t accusing me of lying but are too embarrassed to admit it’s the truth. You’ve also ignored that FOARP said about the Army and Hong Kong.

  41. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:41 | #41

    FOARP#31

    “what you have said above was pretty much free of any historical accuracy.”

    You are absolutely correct. I base what I say on my own personal experiences and what I know as history.

    I am simply expressing my personal opinions on this blog. And I have always maintained that.

    And I will accept your arguments if they are valid. And I do admit that my assessments could be wrong like in the case of how I feel towards British people. I am quite sure that there are many people who have had many good experiences with British people. But unfortunately I never had the pleasure.

    Would you be able to tell me, in your own opinion, some of wrongs done to minorities in Britain.

  42. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 14:48 | #42

    FOARP#29

    “three people called Raj (why does everyone assume that Raj – with whom I often disagree – is not British simply because of his name?), and a person of mixed African/Indian extraction who is hoping to become a Conservative Party MP at the next election.”

    Raj never admitted he is of Indian descent. He told me he is British.

  43. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 15:04 | #43

    Raj#40

    “I see you are still avoiding what I’m saying about UK recruitment. I will assume you aren’t accusing me of lying but are too embarrassed to admit it’s the truth. You’ve also ignored that FOARP said about the Army and Hong Kong.”

    ” I will assume you aren’t accusing me of lying but are too embarrassed to admit it’s the truth.”

    Please don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t answer because I don’t have the answer.

    Please don’t come up with cheap arguments and be more courteous in your rebuttals.

    I never accuse you of anything and always try to understand your point of view. I hope you will extend the same courtesy to me.

    One thing I find nice about this blog is that there are some very intelligent people here and I do have a lot of respect for them. We might be at odds with our arguments but there is always room for understanding.

    I have respect for Steve, FOARP and Jerry because they are always fair and accept the other side of the argument. And they have the chutzpah to admit they are wrong in their assessment. I am also learning from them.

    We all have our personal biases. While I love my country Canada, I think we are going in the wrong direction in many respects. But that does not mean Canada is a bad place or Canadians are bad people. As a stakeholder in Canada, I have a right to voice my opinions about the direction my country is going. As a stakeholder in this world, I have a right to voice my opinions about the direction of the world.

  44. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 15:49 | #44

    FOARP#31

    “This is freedom, like it or loath it, and you seem to lean towards the latter.”

    Personally, I diagree with this statement. Where did you get this idea?

  45. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 15:51 | #45

    FOARP#31

    “There are simply no grounds whatsoever on which anyone could argue that ethnic Chinese were better treated in the US than they were in Canada -”

    I never implied that.

  46. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 15:55 | #46

    FOARP#31
    “Even a cursory review of Canadian politics during WWII shows that the Canadian role in WWII was very unpopular amongst a large portion of the population – particularly in Quebec, and that the Canadian government was loath to send soldiers overseas as a result ”

    Quebec was against the conscription not against the War.

    “and that the Canadian government was loath to send soldiers overseas as a result ”

    This is absolutely incorrect based on talking with veterans.

  47. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 15:59 | #47

    FOARP#31
    “Frankly I find this comparison based on the way people of Chinese origin were treated in the Canadian and US militaries during WWII ridiculous as a way of trying to justify describing Canada as somehow ‘not free’. ”

    I have never made that connection.

  48. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:03 | #48

    FOARP#31

    “The fact that you do not even seem to know who the last governor of Canada was suggests that you do not actually know that much about that country.”

    Do you know that many people in Canada do not know who the Prime Minister is? Who the leader of the Opposition is. Why would you make such a statement?

  49. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:07 | #49

    FOARP#31

    “In short, I would not spend so much time dissing countries based on half-remembered and half-learned history. ”

    That is rather patronizing wouldn’t you say?

    While I do not have the best memory and not 100% in my history lessons, you do not have the right to say things like that about me. I am basing what I say on my own personal experiences, am I not allowed to say that?

  50. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:15 | #50

    FOARP#31

    ” indeed Canadians had to volunteers specifically for overseas service to be considered, and the majority were satisfied with home service. Why do you think this was specifically to do with discrimination against him personally?”

    I would suggest you read this:

    http://sen.parl.gc.ca/vpoy/english/Special_Interests/speeches/Speech%20-%20AAAS%20Toronto.htm

  51. Raj
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:27 | #51

    CT

    I didn’t answer because I don’t have the answer.

    What do you mean you don’t have “the answer”? You’ve been given the answer by FOARP and myself on historic restrictions for Chinese entering service in HK as officers and the current aim to recruit more ethnic minority officers respectively. Either you believe us or you don’t. You can’t sit on the fence, neither saying we’re wrong nor admitting you were mistaken. You said that Steve, FOARP and Jerry admit when they’re wrong – can’t you do the same?

    In any case, you still haven’t told me some things that you can surely answer, such as:

    1. Whether your son applied for a position as an officer or not.
    2. How many young Chinese you know who have joined the Canadian regular armed forces as a percentage.

    I’m trying to be patient but this conversation is painfully slow. When you make serious allegations against my country (or any country) you need to be able to back them up or at least make direct responses. Otherwise the impression is that I have to accept that my country is essentially racist based on second-hand information and conjecture – which I’m unsurprisingly not willing to do! I don’t just love my country, I know that for all its faults it’s still one of the best places in the world to live regardless of one’s race, gender or sexual orientation. Are you so surprised I might be just a tad passionate in my responses, when all I’ve heard is “some guy told me in HK there weren’t any Chinese officers”?

    I am basing what I say on my own personal experiences, am I not allowed to say that?

    Personal experiences are useful but only to a degree. They are narrow and limited. If we all experience different things how can we know what is correct without other information? If I met Chinese Canadians and they were unpleasant, would you want me to say “in my experience Chinese Canadians are arseholes”? No, you’d say that while it was an unfortunate experience it wasn’t reflective of the truth and I shouldn’t think that way.

  52. February 8th, 2009 at 16:30 | #52

    @Ctalk -You’re really not helping yourself with these arguments. Check whether what you have heard is actually true before you put it up here. Were I to baldly repeat the rumours I heard in China as fact I would be roundly condemned by folk on these website as trying to ‘slander’ China.

  53. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:34 | #53

    FOARP

    You should listen to yourself sometime.

  54. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:35 | #54

    Raj

    why don’t you answer some of the questions I asked you.

  55. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:44 | #55

    Personally, I remain convinced that I need to learn more about Britain and the British people. And I think they should try to learn more about the Chinese people and the Canadian people.

  56. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:47 | #56

    Raj#51

    “What do you mean you don’t have “the answer”? ”

    Why are you talking to me like that?

  57. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:48 | #57

    Raj#51

    “I’m trying to be patient but this conversation is painfully slow”

    Why are you talking to me like that?

  58. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:52 | #58

    Raj#51

    “Are you so surprised I might be just a tad passionate in my responses, when all I’ve heard is “some guy told me in HK there weren’t any Chinese officers”?”

    Do you know if this is fact or not?

  59. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:54 | #59

    Raj#51

    “You’ve been given the answer by FOARP and myself on historic restrictions for Chinese entering service in HK as officers and the current aim to recruit more ethnic minority officers respectively.”

    Thanks for your answer, your answer given to me. Try backing up with facts or say they are your own opinions.

  60. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:56 | #60

    Raj#51

    “Either you believe us or you don’t. You can’t sit on the fence”

    I would believe you without facts or you stating that those are your own opinions.

    “You can’t sit on the fence”

    Where did you get that from?

  61. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 16:59 | #61

    Raj

    Please don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t answer because I don’t have the answer.

    Please don’t come up with cheap arguments and be more courteous in your rebuttals.

  62. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:00 | #62

    Raj#51

    “Personal experiences are useful but only to a degree. They are narrow and limited. If we all experience different things how can we know what is correct without other information?”

    I don’t understand this statement, would you please explain.

  63. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:02 | #63

    Raj#51

    “When you make serious allegations against my country (or any country) you need to be able to back them up or at least make direct responses. ”

    What allegations did I make?

  64. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:03 | #64

    Raj

    Are you of Indian descent?

  65. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:04 | #65

    Raj#51

    “I don’t just love my country, I know that for all its faults it’s still one of the best places in the world to live regardless of one’s race, gender or sexual orientation.”

    Could you tell me about some of the wrongs of your country?

  66. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:05 | #66

    Raj#51

    “You said that Steve, FOARP and Jerry admit when they’re wrong – can’t you do the same?”

    What is it that you want me to admit?

  67. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:06 | #67

    Raj#51

    “In any case, you still haven’t told me some things that you can surely answer, such as”

    Why are you talking to me like that?

  68. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:07 | #68

    Raj

    In my opinions, I find it you are very rude in you discussions, please be more courteous, thank you.

  69. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:11 | #69

    Raj#51

    “If I met Chinese Canadians and they were unpleasant, would you want me to say “in my experience Chinese Canadians are arseholes”?”

    I don’t know about you, but I would.

    And I also woud refect that maybe I should learn more about Chinese Canadians.

    Like I said about I should learn more about British people.

    Do you think you would need to learn more about Chinese people?

  70. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:12 | #70

    Raj#51

    “you still haven’t told me some things that you can surely answer, such as:

    1. Whether your son applied for a position as an officer or not.
    2. How many young Chinese you know who have joined the Canadian regular armed forces as a percentage”

    This is very rude. I will not answer.

  71. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:13 | #71

    Raj#51

    “Personal experiences are useful but only to a degree”

    Do you have any facts to back this statement?

  72. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:14 | #72

    Raj#51

    ” Either you believe us or you don’t”

    this is so rude.

  73. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:18 | #73

    Raj#51

    “Otherwise the impression is that I have to accept that my country is essentially racist based on second-hand information and conjecture – which I’m unsurprisingly not willing to do”

    My dear Raj, you do not have to accept anything. All you have to do is to prove what is said is wrong.

    Of course, to do or not to do is also your prerogative.

  74. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:21 | #74

    FOARP#52

    “Were I to baldly repeat the rumours I heard in China as fact I would be roundly condemned by folk on these website as trying to ’slander’ China”

    I always try to delineate my opinions from fact. I will give you a link if it is considered fact.

  75. Raj
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:31 | #75

    CT, it is very difficult to read all those tiny messages. Integrate them into one post, please.

    You won’t answer my questions? Ok, I think I know the answer. Your son did not apply for a position as an officer, or if he did he was accepted/rejected due to something other than race. You know no young Chinese Canadians who have applied for the regular Canadian armed forces. I think that if I was wrong you would have brought up those points earlier on to back up your claims. Of course if I’m wrong I’d like to know what the situation is.

    As for proving what you have said is wrong, I’m not accusing you of inventing the discussion with this person. You said he said there were no Chinese officers in HK – FOARP has indicated this is correct because of treaty obligations. Can you prove he is wrong on that or I am wrong that the UK military wants ethnic minority officer applicants?

    I am not ethnic Indian. And I don’t think this thread is the place to write about wrongs countries have committed. We’re talking about something specific based on allegations you’ve made.

  76. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:50 | #76

    Raj#75
    “You won’t answer my questions? Ok, I think I know the answer. Your son did not apply for a position as an officer, or if he did he was accepted/rejected due to something other than race. You know no young Chinese Canadians who have applied for the regular Canadian armed forces. I think that if I was wrong you would have brought up those points earlier on to back up your claims. Of course if I’m wrong I’d like to know what the situation is.”

    Please excuse me, but why are you making these up?

  77. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:52 | #77

    Raj#75

    “FOARP has indicated this is correct because of treaty obligations. Can you prove he is wrong on that or I am wrong that the UK military wants ethnic minority officer applicants?”

    If this is your opinion, please state so, if this is fact, please provide link.

    Thank you

  78. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:55 | #78

    Raj#75

    “And I don’t think this thread is the place to write about wrongs countries have committed. ”

    We do talk about China’s human rights abuses, don’t we?

  79. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:57 | #79

    Raj#75
    “it is very difficult to read all those tiny messages. Integrate them into one post, please”

    I apologize. I do have some problems with one post. Please bear with me I will try to find a better way.

  80. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 17:59 | #80

    Raj#75

    “You won’t answer my questions? Ok, I think I know the answer”

    This is very patronizing and presumptuous don’t you think?

  81. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 18:02 | #81

    Raj#75

    “I am not ethnic Indian”

    I was hoping that you were. My old roommate was from the Punjabs in India and we had a great time together.

  82. Raj
    February 8th, 2009 at 18:27 | #82

    If this is your opinion, please state so, if this is fact, please provide link.

    You will have to ask FOARP to provide a citation for his point. It may be a book – not everything is online.

    I can’t provide a reference for discussions I have had with senior officers. It isn’t opinion, it’s my understanding of the situation based on the comments of people who are best placed to know. It is no different from what a journalist would do in writing an article.

    This is very patronizing and presumptuous don’t you think?

    In that case, please tell me what the truth is. Do you know any young Canadian Chinese (30 or under) who have joined the regular Canadian armed forces (not the reserves) – if so, what proportion is that of those you know overall? Did your son apply to be an officer – if so, what happened? These are simple questions that are not rude.

    And please just reply in one post.

    EDIT:

    I wil try to fine a way to put everything on one post. I do have problems.

    With all due respect, your English is a bit imperfect. Is there any reason for that? I would have expected it to be better given you said you were born and raised in Canada. No offence.

  83. ChinkTalk
    February 8th, 2009 at 18:30 | #83

    Raj #82

    I wil try to fine a way to put everything on one post. I do have problems.

    Please bear with me.

  84. S.K. Cheung
    February 8th, 2009 at 23:09 | #84

    To CTalk #33:
    I think most everyone who frequents these parts knows that I am Canadian, and proud of it. And obviously, based on the last name and the way it’s spelled, of Cantonese descent. I think that should suffice for our discussion.

  85. S.K. Cheung
    February 8th, 2009 at 23:13 | #85

    To CTalk #39:
    Since you felt compelled to correct FOARP (who isn’t Canadian and can’t be expected to know the exact names of our Crown representatives):
    “David Lam as Lieutenant Governor General” – in the provinces, it’s actually Lieutenant-Governor (ie no General).

  86. S.K. Cheung
    February 8th, 2009 at 23:23 | #86

    To CTalk #48:
    “Do you know that many people in Canada do not know who the Prime Minister is? Who the leader of the Opposition is. Why would you make such a statement?”- who on earth (or at least in Canada) do you associate with? My kids know who the PM is, and they’re in elementary school. You might get a pass on the Opposition Leader, since that changed recently. But considering you’re supposedly fourth generation Canadian, you have some very strange impressions of your own country. And it still boggles me how any of this has to do with China.

  87. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:22 | #87

    S.K.Cheung#84

    “I think most everyone who frequents these parts knows that I am Canadian, and proud of it. And obviously, based on the last name and the way it’s spelled, of Cantonese descent. I think that should suffice for our discussion.”

    I have many Cantonese friends, I presume you are not Toisanese. Are you Hakka?

    I do respect your need for privacy but I am half Toisanese and half Hakka so I am just curious.

  88. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:23 | #88

    S.K.Cheung#85
    ““David Lam as Lieutenant Governor General” – in the provinces, it’s actually Lieutenant-Governor (ie no General).”

    I stand corrected. You are absolutely correct.

  89. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:30 | #89

    S.KCheung#86
    “Do you know that many people in Canada do not know who the Prime Minister is? Who the leader of the Opposition is. Why would you make such a statement?”- who on earth (or at least in Canada) do you associate with? My kids know who the PM is, and they’re in elementary school. You might get a pass on the Opposition Leader, since that changed recently. But considering you’re supposedly fourth generation Canadian, you have some very strange impressions of your own country. And it still boggles me how any of this has to do with China.”

    These are cheap shots. I don’t insult you why should you question my heritage. Are you saying that 4th generation Chinese Canadian must have a certain impression of Canada? This is ridiculous. What is the proper impression one should have when one is 4th generation. You have 20th generation Chinese critisizing China.

  90. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:35 | #90

    Raj#82

    “EDIT:

    I wil try to fine a way to put everything on one post. I do have problems.

    With all due respect, your English is a bit imperfect. Is there any reason for that? I would have expected it to be better given you said you were born and raised in Canada. No offence.”

    I get this from British people all the time. And you said that your British but not ethnic Indian. When they cannot win with logic, they attack me personally.

    You can judge me anyway you want. It is your prerogative.

  91. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:41 | #91

    S.K.Cheung#86

    “Do you know that many people in Canada do not know who the Prime Minister is? Who the leader of the Opposition is. Why would you make such a statement?”- who on earth (or at least in Canada) do you associate with? My kids know who the PM is, and they’re in elementary school.”

    Just because your kid knows who the prime minister is does not mean everyone in Canada does. Are you saying that everyone in Canada would know who the prime minster of Canada is?

  92. S.K. Cheung
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:46 | #92

    To CTalk #87-89:
    I am from Hong Kong. I think way back, my dad’s family came from a village in Canton province. Can’t recall the name.

    “I don’t insult you why should you question my heritage.” – when on earth did I question your heritage? I merely questioned the current-events knowledge-base of those with whom you associate, since your impression is that “many people in Canada do not know who the Prime Minister is”. And you’re right: that you’re fourth generation has nothing to do with it. I would question the same thing if you were first generation, or if you set foot in Canada yesterday.

  93. S.K. Cheung
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:48 | #93

    “Are you saying that everyone in Canada would know who the prime minster of Canada is?” – Clearly not everyone, since you apparently know some who don’t. But that’s a fact everyone living in Canada SHOULD know (visitors excepted).

    And again, while the fact that your acquaintances might have trouble with a Grade 5 Social Studies quiz is fascinating, I still fail to see what any of this has to do with China.

  94. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 01:56 | #94

    S.K.Cheung#93

    There are people here in Canada who do not know all of the provinces and their capitals. And how many territories do we have. Do they have capitals?

    You know what? Without checking it on Google right now, I am not sure myself.

  95. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 02:01 | #95

    S.K.Cheung#93

    “And again, while the fact that your acquaintances might have trouble with a Grade 5 Social Studies quiz is fascinating, I still fail to see what any of this has to do with China.”

    None whatsoever. You are right. We should move on.

  96. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 02:11 | #96

    S.K.Cheung

    If you are located in Vancouver, please visit: http://www.chineseinvancouver.ca/

    The owner of the blog, sn, is also from Hong Kong. You will find it a very interesting read.

  97. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 02:22 | #97

    S.K.Cheung

    I hope I am not prying but this is for my own reference.

    Please be frank if you are going to answer me. And we should really be moving on.

    Have you ever experienced racism in Canada?

    Feel free to tell me if you don’t feel comfortable replying to this question.

  98. S.K. Cheung
    February 9th, 2009 at 03:11 | #98

    To CT #94-97:
    “There are people here in Canada who do not know all of the provinces and their capitals.”- you might be right. But no one I know or associate with would fall into that category. You might get a free pass if you didn’t know about Nunavut, since that territory is “new”, but the other ones have been around in all of our lifetimes. And again, my kids know them. I would also point out that facts like that are required knowledge for any permanent residents who hope to pass their interviews to become naturalized Canadians.

    When I came to Canada, I was a little kid who spoke no English. I remember being picked on. Was it because I was Chinese, because I couldn’t speak English, or because bigger kids just like picking on the little ones? I don’t know. But as an adult, I have never experienced discrimination, particularly in terms of career advancement, because of my ethnicity. However, is racism extinct in Canada? Almost certainly not, and I would never claim it to be. But neither can you compare today with the 1950’s as you’ve been doing.

  99. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 03:33 | #99

    S.K.Cheung#98

    “I would also point out that facts like that are required knowledge for any permanent residents who hope to pass their interviews to become naturalized Canadians.”

    Frankly, I don’t know if I would be able to pass that inteview you are talking about.

    S.K.Cheung – “But as an adult, I have never experienced discrimination, particularly in terms of career advancement, because of my ethnicity”

    May I ask in general terms what line of work you do? I presume that you work with white people and not own your business or working for Chinese people.

  100. S.K. Cheung
    February 9th, 2009 at 04:42 | #100

    “Frankly, I don’t know if I would be able to pass that inteview you are talking about.” – well, I can tell you that my parents both passed just such an interview. And if you grew up in Canada, I can assure you that information was something you had to have known at some point, and perhaps have simply forgotten.

    Your presumptions are correct.

  101. Raj
    February 9th, 2009 at 10:09 | #101

    CT

    I get this from British people all the time. And you said that your British but not ethnic Indian. When they cannot win with logic, they attack me personally.

    How is it an attack to enquire why you have problems with your English? Even PRC Chinese that I have had contact with online are able to write one post to respond to more than one comment, so it’s unusual that you say you were born and raised in Canada yet can’t do something like that.

    Could I have a response to the rest of my comment (82) please? Thanks.

  102. TQ
    February 9th, 2009 at 12:27 | #102

    So, What happened to “Something to chuckle about” ?

    From upside down Union Jack (a sign of distress): The way the pound sterling is plummeting, sure. And what are the three citizens who earn money with the Queen of England’s profile on them arguing about …um, what are you guys going on about anyway?

    Let me guess, is it about CRAPS?

    CRAPS (Classism, Racism, Anglophilism, Peacockery, Sexism) are definitely here to stay, inevitably with China BECOMING the largest Capitalist nation, the top choice for economic migration, the No.1 English speaking Nation on earth, and where Cultural hegemony clashes increase with the progress of all the preceeding conditions. Finally, the emasculation of the social male in the ongoing global gender role revolution.

    Hm…that sounds more like something to weep about.

  103. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 14:53 | #103

    Raj#101

    “How is it an attack to enquire why you have problems with your English? Even PRC Chinese that I have had contact with online are able to write one post to respond to more than one comment, so it’s unusual that you say you were born and raised in Canada yet can’t do something like that.”

    I don’t need you to tell me how to speak or write English. I will write the way I want.

  104. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 14:53 | #104

    Raj#101
    “Could I have a response to the rest of my comment (82) please? Thanks.”

    Would you please answer all the questions I asked first, thank you

  105. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 15:00 | #105

    TQ – The more I talk to people like Raj, the British who is not ethnic Indian. The more I am blindly pro-China. That scares me because I would like to be objective.

    You maybe able to see in my previous posts, I do not like to argue like this. It is absolutely nonsense to argue like this.

    But I will stand up for my rights.

    And it is with the rise of China that my voice is heard.

  106. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 15:20 | #106

    Raj#101
    “Could I have a response to the rest of my comment (82) please? Thanks.”

    Please answer: #35,36,37,56,57,58,59,60,62,63,65,66,67,71,76,77,78,80,81 first, thank you.

  107. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 15:23 | #107

    Raj#101

    “Even PRC Chinese that I have had contact with online are able to write one post to respond to more than one comment, so it’s unusual that you say you were born and raised in Canada yet can’t do something like that.”

    What so unusual about it?

  108. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 15:26 | #108

    TQ –

    Could you help me out, what is Raj talking about in #82

  109. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 15:34 | #109

    Raj – I have decided to put each answer in separate posts. I will not try to put everything into one post. I was being courteous in trying to accommodate you, but I find your manner imposing, even rude. What give you the right to do that?

  110. Ted
    February 9th, 2009 at 16:41 | #110

    Wow, 109 comments… Couldn’t most of this be compressed to one or two comments? It’s a little hard to follow.

  111. ChinkTalk
    February 9th, 2009 at 16:59 | #111

    Allen#15

    Allen, I must have missed your article on Tony Blair’s comment on China.

    I just read it now.

    I stand corrected on my statement that there is no public figure who would say positive things about China.

    It is good to know and I think we should take Blair’s advice of trying to understand each other.

    Thanks again for the link

  112. Raj
    February 9th, 2009 at 18:59 | #112

    Would you please answer all the questions I asked first, thank you

    Not if you’re going to force me to read a dozen separate messages. Now please answer my very fair question about your son and the young Chinese you know. If you don’t there’s no point continuing this conversation.

    Could you help me out, what is Raj talking about in #82

    Good grief, how much attention did you pay during English lessons? I’m sorry but when you can’t even understand a very simple message yet you claim to have been born and raised in an English-speaking nation something is very, very wrong.

  113. S.K. Cheung
    February 10th, 2009 at 03:51 | #113

    To CT #105:
    “And it is with the rise of China that my voice is heard.” – Dude, you live in Canada. And you say you live in Vancouver. You must have found the most bigoted enclave in the city, then trucked in a bunch of racists to boot, who have no knowledge of nor interest in basic current events or fundamental Canadian facts, in order to draw some of the conclusions you have drawn, such as:
    1. racism in Canada is still like it was in the 1950’s
    2. you weren’t previously heard because you are Chinese
    3. people don’t know who their PM is, or what provinces constitute their country.

    Although we apparently live in the same country, yours is surprisingly unrecognizable to me. And the rise or fall of China has no bearing on the reach of my voice.

  114. Raj
    February 10th, 2009 at 08:23 | #114

    SKC, I’m not even sure if he’s telling the truth now. His flawed English and refusal to clarify simple matters suggests to me that he has been exaggerating or at least leaving certain facts out.

  115. S.K. Cheung
    February 10th, 2009 at 08:43 | #115

    To Raj:
    Without knowing any better, I have to assume CT is honestly representing how he sees life in Canada for a visible minority in general, and Chinese in particular. All I can say is that his “truth” bears no resemblance to mine, and I wasn’t even born here. The thing that strikes me is that I can’t think of any Canadians of Chinese descent that I know who share his sentiments. Perhaps there’s selection bias there, since I would probably choose not to hang with folks who harboured those types of views.

    The other thing that boggles is when people say something to the effect of “I can stand taller because China is rising up”. My typical reaction is “huh?” If you’re Canadian, or American, or British, or whatever nationality other than PRC citizen, what does China’s posture have to do with you? For me, diddly-squat. I suppose it comes down to (in the case of a Canadian of Chinese descent, for example) whether you see yourself as Canadian first or Chinese first. I think it’s fairly obvious where I stand on that spectrum.

  116. Raj
    February 10th, 2009 at 11:28 | #116

    The other thing that boggles is when people say something to the effect of “I can stand taller because China is rising up”. My typical reaction is “huh?” If you’re Canadian, or American, or British, or whatever nationality other than PRC citizen, what does China’s posture have to do with you?

    Which is one reason why I have trouble believing that he is being completely honest. He says he is Canadian, not Chinese, yet China’s rise makes him feel better. That is not logical. If the latter is true then he sees himself as being primarily Chinese.

  117. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 15:15 | #117

    Raj#112

    “Could you help me out, what is Raj talking about in #82

    Good grief, how much attention did you pay during English lessons? I’m sorry but when you can’t even understand a very simple message yet you claim to have been born and raised in an English-speaking nation something is very, very wrong.”

    Raj – my British friend who is not ethnic Indian – you are so rude.

    I rest my case.

  118. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 16:21 | #118

    S.K.Cheung#113

    “To CT #105:
    “And it is with the rise of China that my voice is heard.” – Dude, you live in Canada. And you say you live in Vancouver. You must have found the most bigoted enclave in the city, then trucked in a bunch of racists to boot, who have no knowledge of nor interest in basic current events or fundamental Canadian facts, in order to draw some of the conclusions you have drawn, such as:
    1. racism in Canada is still like it was in the 1950’s

    I have never said that.

    2. you weren’t previously heard because you are Chinese

    I have never said that. I said with the rise of China that my voice is heard.

    3. people don’t know who their PM is, or what provinces constitute their country.

    I said not all people in Canada would know who the prime minister is.

    S.K.Cheung – a lot of naturalized Canadians like you are afraid to critisize Canada. But I am not. That does not mean I do not love my country, it is that I am not afraid to point out the wrongs.

    You said:- “Although we apparently live in the same country, yours is surprisingly unrecognizable to me”

    Please just read the news. Canada has problems with the treatment of Aboriginals, Khadr, racism, etc.

    But this does not mean Canada is a bad country, every country has problems.

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/090203/canada/canada_us_un_rights

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

    You would be lying if you say that you have not expereienced racism in Canada. You would know the history of the Chinese in Canada if you are that much of a Chinese Canadian. You are like a Jew who’s never heard of the Holocaust.

    You are not honest with me and I don’t think you are honest with yourself.

    You said:”The other thing that boggles is when people say something to the effect of “I can stand taller because China is rising up”. My typical reaction is “huh?” If you’re Canadian, or American, or British, or whatever nationality other than PRC citizen, what does China’s posture have to do with you”

    When China was poor, the Chinese diaspora felt it through discrimination. This is very well documented. I lived through the time-line. It is with the rise of China that you able to function without discrimination at your office. Go and ask the old timers, go down to Vancouver Chinatown and talk to them, go to the Jack Chow Insurance building which it was cut in half by the Vancouver Mayor because he didn’t like Chinese people, now the building holds the Guinness book of records for the smallest building in the world.

    Do you know about the Chinese Exclusion Acts, the Chinese Head Taxes, Chinese people were not allowed to hold professions; Chinese Canadians were not allowed to vote till 1945. Like I said, just read your history book.

    I hope you are not denying history.

    You said: “Dude, you live in Canada” and “For me, diddly-squat. ” – It’s funny that you are trying hard to be white with this type of talk, and I am trying to be more Chinese and try not to talk like this.

    Like I said go and visit Chinatown in Vancouver or the site http://www.chineseinvancouver.com

    You said:”I suppose it comes down to (in the case of a Canadian of Chinese descent, for example) whether you see yourself as Canadian first or Chinese first. I think it’s fairly obvious where I stand on that spectrum.”

    Being a proud Canadian does not mean you can’t critisize Canada. There are many proud Chinese who critisize China. Why we cannot learn from them. You are not very secured in you place as a Canadian if you feel you must glorify Canada in every instance. It is true Canadians that can recognize the best of Canada as well as its faults.

    S.K.Cheung – my friend – you wrap the Canadian flag around you and I applaud you, but you still think like an immigrant.

  119. Steve
    February 10th, 2009 at 16:44 | #119

    CTalk & SKC: I asked my wife, who has lived in the States since 1978, if she had ever experienced any racism. She said she never had, not even once.

    Now there might be a few reasons for this. She has always lived in either southern California or Arizona, which are more open to foreign cultures. She is very attractive with a great personality so she can win over just about anyone, but it’s still been 30 years so that’s a long time frame. Her attitude is such that she doesn’t care if there was racism towards Chinese before her time. She only cares about today and today everything is fine. SKC might have that same attitude.

    I’m not trying to say there isn’t any racism in the States since there certainly is, just like every country in the world. What I’m saying is that both of you, living in the same country and maybe even the same city, can still have different experiences that are both true and that both reflect on the culture where you live.

    All countries have problems, but I’d say Canada has fewer than most and it’s a great place to live. From CTalk’s POV, problems don’t disappear on their own so he feels it is important to keep working on the ones that are left. SKC sees all the improvements and is proud that his country has come so far. Both are great attitudes.

    Is the glass half empty or half full? 😀

  120. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 17:03 | #120

    S.K.Cheung

    Here is an article written by a non-Chinese who is a PhD research fellow. Please have a look if you are interested in learning more about racism in Canada.

    http://ccsd.ca/subsites/inclusion/bp/jk.htm

  121. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 17:27 | #121

    Steve#119″I asked my wife, who has lived in the States since 1978, if she had ever experienced any racism. She said she never had, not even once.

    Now there might be a few reasons for this. She has always lived in either southern California or Arizona, which are more open to foreign cultures.”

    Steve – this is very true. I was speaking with some students from China and their parents are government officials; professinals, etc. and they are puzzled by the all the commotion about Tibet. Apparently they live pretty comfortably in China so they are not really conscious of the many problems in China.

    I have always respected the US and its political system. I also love Americans. My feelings are further galvinized with the election of Obama. It is true superpower leadership. Steve, you are showing the same type of leadership here – compromise – surely the best approach.

    “Is the glass half empty or half full”

    It really depends on if you are thirsty or not.

  122. Raj
    February 10th, 2009 at 17:31 | #122

    Raj – my British friend who is not ethnic Indian – you are so rude.

    Not really, I’m just not adverse to making observations that anyone can see. You asked someone else what I meant in post #82 when anyone with a fair understanding of English would have known what I meant. So I have to ask myself, if you really are finding it so hard to keep up what can the reason for that be?

    1. You didn’t concentrate at school during English lessons?
    2. You were never born and raised in Canada at all?
    3. You’re faking confusion to avoid answering queries that I have put to you several times?

    For someone who says that he has a son old enough to be in the reserves, you have an incredibly low tolerance when it comes to “rude” comments. You remind me more of a child than an adult. I guess you’ve never been the “big man” once in your life, but taken offence at the first raised voice or angry comment and gone off to sulk in the corner….

  123. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 17:47 | #123

    Raj#122

    Raj – my British friend who is not ethnic Indian – you are so rude.

  124. Raj
    February 10th, 2009 at 17:54 | #124

    Raj – my British friend who is not ethnic Indian – you are so rude.

    To you, perhaps. But if that’s the case then you’re a hypocrite given your last comment to SKC (118).

    You would be lying if you say that you have not expereienced racism in Canada. You would know the history of the Chinese in Canada if you are that much of a Chinese Canadian. You are like a Jew who’s never heard of the Holocaust.

    You are not honest with me and I don’t think you are honest with yourself.

    You said: “Dude, you live in Canada” and “For me, diddly-squat. ” – It’s funny that you are trying hard to be white with this type of talk

    You are not very secured in you place as a Canadian if you feel you must glorify Canada in every instance. It is true Canadians that can recognize the best of Canada as well as its faults.

    S.K.Cheung – my friend – you wrap the Canadian flag around you and I applaud you, but you still think like an immigrant.

    If he isn’t offended by that, then he’s a bigger man than you are. But what you wrote was still very offensive and spiteful. I suggest that you practice what you preach, good sir!

  125. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 18:01 | #125

    S.K.Cheung

    Do you know who Evelyn Lau is?

    I have known her for many years.

    Please read this if you are interested:

    http://www.straight.com/article/im-tired-of-hearing-people-call-me-a-chink

  126. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 18:02 | #126

    Raj#124

    Raj – my British friend who is not ethnic Indian – you are so rude.

  127. Raj
    February 10th, 2009 at 18:07 | #127

    Raj – my British friend who is not ethnic Indian – you are so rude.

    Oh of course – I’m rude for pointing out that you’re a hypocrite!

    But I love the post you supplied. You call yourself “ChinkTalk” despite the fact that “Chink” is a word Chinese people hate to hear. I’m sure Evelyn would say you’re helping get rid of that word from circulation.

  128. Hong Konger
    February 10th, 2009 at 18:43 | #128

    # 119

    Thank you Steve for your comment.

    Talking about “Something to chuckle about” I heard from a friend who’d just returned from DC for Obama’s inauguration ceremony. He said something incredible happened in the Nation’s Capital that week. There was not a single arrest made. People were nice. It was virtually the city of love. There were not even bar brawls. Oh, yes, he said no one got robbed, kidnapped, raped, beaten or killed for a whole week!
    Is it true or was he just pulling my leg?

  129. TonyP4
    February 10th, 2009 at 19:09 | #129
  130. ChinkTalk
    February 10th, 2009 at 19:21 | #130

    Raj#127

    Raj, my British friend who is not ethnic Indian, you are so rude.

  131. S.K. Cheung
    February 11th, 2009 at 05:21 | #131

    To CT #118:
    “S.K.Cheung – a lot of naturalized Canadians like you are afraid to critisize Canada.”- whoa, whoa, whoa, down boy. Whoever said anything about being afraid to criticize Canada? However, to me, the things you seem to criticize Canada for are patent nonsense. There’s a big difference.

    “I have never said that. I said with the rise of China that my voice is heard.” – the natural implication of your statement is that prior to the rise of China, your voice wasn’t heard. Not sure how else to have interpreted that.
    “1. racism in Canada is still like it was in the 1950’s. I have never said that. ” – but yet you like to bring up how your uncles were discriminated against in the 50’s. If that’s not relevant to your view of Canada today, what’s the point of mentioning it in the first place. Do you often cite examples with no relevance?

    “Please just read the news.” – given our relative knowledge of certain facts about Canada, I think I’ve been reading/watching the news plenty, thanks.

    “You would be lying if you say that you have not expereienced racism in Canada. You would know the history of the Chinese in Canada if you are that much of a Chinese Canadian.” – And you are a moron. You know I am lying how, exactly? I’ve been careful not to suggest that you’re making stuff up, even though I think what you say is out there; but if you wanna change the tone, I’d be happy to oblige. Once again, the history of Chinese in Canada is well-known. And for the umpteenth time, what relevance does that have to being a Canadian of Chinese descent TODAY (apart from the “learning from history bit” that I always stipulate to)?

    “It is with the rise of China that you able to function without discrimination at your office. Go and ask the old timers” – seriously, dude, you need to give your head a shake. Listen, if you’re substantially older than me, and you faced some of the discrimination you seem to suggest, then that is unfortunate and I don’t want to belittle it. But neither should you make baseless assumptions upon something of which you know nothing (ie. my personal experiences).

    “I hope you are not denying history.” – And I hope you learn to read someday. I referred to the Head Tax long before you did here. I don’t deny history; but you seem to think that what happened historically is still happening in exactly the same way today. That, to me, is nuts.

    “It’s funny that you are trying hard to be white with this type of talk” – I am decades beyond simply trying to talk like native speakers. My English ability is at least the equal of most native speakers, and all the while I can speak Cantonese like I came from HK yesterday. What I am trying to be is a forward-looking Canadian. I suggest it’s high time you gave that a try.

    “It is true Canadians that can recognize the best of Canada as well as its faults.” – absolutely. And when you actually find time to discuss some legitimate faults, I’d be happy to partake. But lately, you’ve just been spewing baloney.

    “I applaud you, but you still think like an immigrant.”- and you talk like one. And if you’re a fourth generation Canadian, you’ve got some work to do.

  132. S.K. Cheung
    February 11th, 2009 at 05:39 | #132

    To CT #125:
    “Do you know who Evelyn Lau is?”- never heard of her.

    So Ms. Lau had the misfortune of being on the receiving end of a racial slur in that one incident she discusses. In Vancouver, no less, where I gather there is a large Chinese-Canadian population. That was undeserved, unwarranted, disgusting, and certainly reflects poorly on that 60-something man who uttered it. However, is this your supposed evidence of ongoing systematic wide-spread anti-Chinese discrimination that still runs rampant throughout Canada in 2009?

    Since you appear to have misconstrued the generalizability of anecdotal evidence, please see my quote in #98: “However, is racism extinct in Canada? Almost certainly not, and I would never claim it to be.” This seems so self-evident as to render repeating it redundant. But for your benefit, what the hay.

  133. Hong Konger
    February 11th, 2009 at 07:07 | #133

    # 132

    “My English ability is at least the equal of most native speakers, and all the while I can speak Cantonese like I came from HK yesterday. ”

    SKC,

    You mentioned that you didn’t speak much English when you first went to Canada. I assume you were eleven then? If so, under the right condition you would have naturally mastered the then foreign language to you in a few years time, However, past certain age, I read somewhere that degrees of limitations in acquiring certain aspect of any belatedly (post – pubescent???) learned spoken language, such as accent, increases by the year. But, then again, take Da Shan, for example. His near-native Mandarin kinda of blows that theorey out of the water, doesn’t it? The aforementioned condition does not of course apply to acquired written language skill. What’s you take?

  134. Hong Konger
    February 11th, 2009 at 07:27 | #134

    OH, which reminds me of my all time favorite martial artist, philosopher, my on and off the silverscreen hero, Bruce Lee. I know that Steve insists that Bruce was American, which by birth he was, of course. However, in the eyes of most folks, he was Chinese. He encountered racial prejudices as a Californian Chinese in his time, in Hollywood, etc. He even spoke English like a Chinese. Make no mistake, the guy was an eloquant English speaker with wonderful flare. He was a good writer too, with great penmanship to boot, but he spoke English with very distinctive Cantonese twang, no less. In any case, I think he had the mind of a genius.

  135. S.K. Cheung
    February 11th, 2009 at 07:47 | #135

    To HKer:
    I’m no expert on linguistics. But my personal impression is similar to yours. The younger you start to learn a language, the quicker you’ll become proficient with it. Certainly was true among those I knew. Those who came to Canada at a younger age developed their English skills faster than those who came when they were a little older. Having said that, any differences become less prominent over time, such that, even for those who came in their late teens, their English is now as good as the next guy/girl. So I think part of it also has to do with how long you’ve been immersed in it. I actually think the principles apply to written and spoken language skills.

    I recall watching a biography on Bruce Lee (perhaps it was Biography on A&E Channel) that chronicled his struggles with racism in Hollywood. Even today, I can’t think of an A-list Chinese actor in Hollywood. I don’t think Michelle Yeoh, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan count, since they’re really only seen as action stars. And Gong Li or Zhang Ziyi are only of interest to the arthouse crowd, give or take a Crouching Tiger or a Memoirs of a Geisha.

  136. Hong Konger
    February 11th, 2009 at 08:22 | #136

    Chow Yun Fat for example did have a stint in a leading role in some Hollywood B-movie. Joan Chen 陈冲 too. So, you are right, there is no A-list Chnese actor. Is it because Asians are such minority in America?
    Well, to be fair, there aren’t any A-list Non-Chinese/Indian actor in Hong Kong, Taiwan or Bollywood either. Or B-list Non-Chinese/Indian actor for that matter. Speaking of Bollywood, there’s been quite a few very good English dialogued Indian movies. The latest being “Slumdog Millionaire.” Excellent flick!

    I guess the cultural and language barrier are yet unscalable. But then, Hollywood has recently been quite successful with adapting Asian scripts which became box office hits though. Martin Scorsese’s 2007 Oscar winner, The Departed was a fine example. It was a remark of Hong Kong’s 2002 hit movie (無间道) Internal Affair. Then there were a couple of other remakes of hit Japanese horror movies which were quite popular, right. The American music scene is no less void of Asian artists too.

  137. TQ
    February 11th, 2009 at 17:10 | #137

    # 128

    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/01/20/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4739388.shtml

    January 20, 2009, 3:49 PM
    Inauguration Crowd Estimated At Up To 2 Million; No Arrests Reported Yet

    As for no arrest at all, city of love? I very much doubt that.

  138. S.K. Cheung
    February 12th, 2009 at 05:08 | #138

    To HKer #136:
    Chow Yun Fat is one of my all-time fav’s. I think I mentioned that before. He was in a movie with Jodie Foster, in which I believe he played the king of Thailand. Never saw it, but I heard it bombed. He was also in a movie with Mark Wahlberg. Can’t remember that title either, but I saw it, and I remember it being brutally bad. I’ve yet to see Slumdog…part of my to-do list.

    As you point out, when you’re in the visual arts and your industry depends on mass public appeal, it’s an uphill climb for any visible minority, be it a Chinese actor in the US or a Caucasian actor in HK. It comes down to putting bums in seats, and Chow Yun Fat or Jackie Chan playing the hero is not going to work nearly as well as Will Smith or Brad Pitt. I’m not sure it’s racism; I think it’s just economics.

    I didn’t realize the Departed (a damn fine movie) was adapted from an HK movie. I’ll be sure to check out the original.. Thanks for the tip.

  139. Hong Konger
    February 12th, 2009 at 07:37 | #139

    Here you go, SKC

    (無间道) Internal Affair (2002)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infernal_Affairs

    Just curious. So, do you prefer to watch HK canto-flick in English? Do you recognize Chow’s, Tony Leung’s, Tsang Ji Wai’s voice? In China, I always wait till the Original Cantonese version is out even though I understand Mandarin fine.
    I dunno how will you know about the 3 Kingdom tales: RED CLIFF part 1 & 2 are excellent. Well, for one, my dream lady Ling Chi Ling is in it…haha. My God, she is a Goddess! 5 foot 10 and all angelic – A bit skinny for most men, but my God , she is gorgeous. She could give me a heart attack just by the way she speaks! LOL!

  140. Hong Konger
    February 12th, 2009 at 07:44 | #140

    RED CLIFF PART II

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLgDcvqVAw

    Original language : Mandarin
    The Battle of Red Cliff, Tales of Three Kingdoms

  141. S.K. Cheung
    February 12th, 2009 at 08:02 | #141

    To HKer:
    no, if I watch a Canto-flick, it’s going to be in Cantonese. Although i do enjoy the English subtitles…reminiscent of the link I think WKL provided in another thread to funny subtitles with Star Wars episode 2. I would recognize Chow’s and Leung’s voice, but Tsang’s maybe not so much. Speaking of Leung, forgot about his movie last year where he played a turncoat during the Japanese occupation of China in WW 2. It got some critical acclaim in Canada. The title again escapes me.

    But speaking of Leung and Chow, one of the funnier “lost in translation” movies for me was when I watched Hard Boiled when it was over-dubbed with English voices. THe Cantonese version was much better.

    I’m afraid I don’t know about the Kingdom tales, and I don’t know who Ling Chi Ling is, though by the way you describe her, I should go and find out. 🙂

  142. S.K. Cheung
    February 12th, 2009 at 08:24 | #142

    To Hker:
    hey, thanks again for the Infernal Affairs link. Jeez, looks like Scorsese took the plot verbatim, scored himself a bunch of heavy-hitting actors, plunked himself in Boston for a few months, and bagged an Oscar for his efforts.

  143. Hong Konger
    February 12th, 2009 at 08:44 | #143

    Yes, SKC, you totally must find out who she is. Super Model Lin Chi-Ling has been named as Taiwan’s most beautiful woman. She went to the Bishop Strachan school, and then Toronto University where she majored in Western Art History and Economics Even now in her 30s, she remains one of the most prominent celebrities in Taiwan,

  144. Hong Konger
    February 12th, 2009 at 08:52 | #144

    Another Hollywood movie adapted from a Korean hit is Lake House, The starring pair of SPEED: Sandra Bullock and Keanu Reeves

    http://www.jay-chou.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20686

    I watched the Korean movie first and then a couple years later, ten minutes into LAKE HOUSE, I realized it was the same story !

  145. Hong Konger
    February 12th, 2009 at 09:20 | #145

    SKC,

    I think one can’t speak of Chow Yung Fat without mentioning director John Woo Yu-Sen 吳宇森
    Woo was described by Dave Kehr in The Observer in 2002 as “arguably the most influential director making movies today”.

    Speaking of Hard Boiled. It was the last movie Woo directed in HK before heading to Superstardom in Hollywood. And since you are a John Woo’s fan, you ‘ve gotta catch his latest Record breaking Box Office HIT: The aforementioned Chinese epic : RED CLIFF.

    BTW, in this, best of the best of Woo’s movies, Ling Chi Ling plays one of the most beautiful woman in 3 Kingdoms’ tales: Xiao Jiao – the woman who in effect is the reason General Cao Cao starts a war for, which climaxes at Red Cliff. And it is because of Chi Ling’s (General Tony Leung’s wife) 美人计 which effectively distracted the Unbeatable General Cao Cao from winning this epic battle.

  146. Wukailong
    February 12th, 2009 at 09:59 | #146

    @Hong Konger (#145): As for Hard Boiled, it was one of my favorites years ago. It’s good in the sense Commando is – you never feel bored, though I guess it’s not the most artful movie out there.

  147. Hong Konger
    February 12th, 2009 at 10:14 | #147

    WKL,

    You ‘re right. It was not my favorite Chow’s movies either. As a matter of fact, My ALL TIME favorite Chow’s character was 船头尺(Don’t know how to translate this nickname) in his 1987 [Top Ten most popular HK classic], “An Autumn’s Tale.” 秋天的童话, filmed in New York, with the beautiful Cherrie Chung.

    http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/autumns_tale.htm

    “船头尺”与“茶煲”这一对男女主角的爱情故事,被香港人选为最受欢迎的十大电影之一。该片获第7届香港电影金像奖最佳电影、最佳剧本、最佳摄影三项奖。

  148. Steve
    February 12th, 2009 at 16:36 | #148

    @ Hong Konger: Ha ha, I’ll give in to Bruce Lee being a Hong Kong guy. I liked his accented English, easy to understand yet gave him more authenticity than if he had no accent. When I was a kid, I used to watch the TV show Kung Fu and it made a huge impression on me (and most other American kids) but imagine if Bruce Lee had played the lead role as he should have? After all, it was his idea. I’m sure the show would have been at least as popular if not more so.

    @ SKC: It seems Holllywood picks an actress “du jour” and uses her until a new one comes along. For awhile there, if you needed a Chinese actress you used Lucy Liu, then it was either Michelle Yeoh or Zhang Ziyi or both. Well, at least it’s better than Luise Ranier playing the Chinese wife in The Good Earth back in the 1930s. I think there just needs to be more Chinese written screenplays with good stories that people would see. If the story is good, the movie will always be successful no matter who is in it, since the human condition is universal. Personally, I can’t stand the latest crop of martial arts movies from China. I’m tired of people flying over rooftops, running over lakes, etc. It’s like a cartoon to me. I’ll take an old movie like Pride’s Deadly Fury any day.

    My favourite Chow Yun Fat movie was the one where he’s a gangster, gets amnesia and is found by some teens. It’s really funny but I can’t remember the name. I saw it on a bus from Wuxi to Shanghai.

    Probably the most popular Asian singer in the USA is Blonde Redhead’s Kazu Makino, here singing their song 23.

    SKC, here is a nice photo of Lin Chi-Ling. I also saw that movie with Chow Yun Fat and Mark Wahlberg and you’re right, it WAS terrible. 🙁

  149. TonyP4
    February 12th, 2009 at 17:33 | #149

    Random thoughts.

    * Chow is best in God of Gamblers. He played 2 different roles at best. The one who played the protector is my elementary classmate, who becomes a producer. No one deserves an Oscar than Chow’s performance that year. My other famous classmate is Yan, the TV cook. I must be in the bottom of the class of 45 classmates.

    * I like the Autumn’s Tale a lot – despite the poor quality of my VCD tape. You cannot make a better film with that budget. It is sad that the characters cannot sing ‘there is a place for us’.

    * I should have read the Romance of 3 Kingdoms in some summer in high school. The brief history of about 50 years (100 or so if you count years with less historical significance). It is about 70% true, but it could change many lives. I’m looking forward to watch the second part of Red Cliff.

    Cao Cao is smarter than the book depicts – we need a good villain.

    * My wife is a mafia is quite innovative from Korean.

  150. Hong Konger
    February 12th, 2009 at 18:11 | #150

    Steve,

    I loved The Good Earth despite the ridiculous casting.

    Tsui Hak is probably one of the most influential directors as far as flying swordsmen movies. He is no doubt a great movie director. Like you, I’ve never liked that aspect of Chinese movies, and unfortunately it has become the norm for the genre.

    I’ve never seen Pride’s Deadly Fury. I’m sure I would have liked it if I saw it at the time. Now, it looks outdated. But then again, like I said, I’ve not seen it to really know if I like it.

    Have you seen Red Cliff, Steve? Ling Chi Ling as Xiao Jiao is as elegant and mesmerizing as she is in person – Loves the way she speaks. Ok, ok, I know I’m starting to sound like a puppy-love striken teenager.

    Right, let’s move on to something more manly. This, here, is absolutely my favorite of all
    Danny Yen’s movies:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y67D9I5MRqg&feature=related

    Yes, Tony,

    Chow Yun fat is Mark 哥 personified. He is also the one and only 睹神 and the irreplaceable
    船头尺 of the Silverscreen. Oh, would you agree that Chow’s first wife was and is still gorgeous?
    His second is very nice , not to mention very very rich too. What a lucky man.

  151. TonyP4
    February 12th, 2009 at 18:40 | #151

    Kwong King (could be a typo) is the original flying swordsman movies. It was quite advanced at his time. Hollywood did not take his offer to work there.

    From my memory, Tsui graduated from U. of Texas and a Chinese Vietnamese.

    I love Chinese Ghost Story and no one was sexier than Wong with or without clothes. The songs are very good too (search Chinese Ghost story song in YouTube). The II and III are not bad, but the exotic series (Exotic Chinese Ghost Story I, II I guess) could be outrageously exotic by that time’s standard.

    Infernal Affairs II and III tried to imitate Hollywood – quite ironic! They came out in record time and they’re quite good too.

    John Woo and Chow should stay in HK and make their kind of movies. Chow is gorgeous (I’m not gay, haha) for his good look and tall body. At one time HK kids imitated him with a tooth pick and jacket in hot summer days – HKer, are you one of those kids?

    Does Chow have children? If not, he may not be that lucky as you think.

    I believe the ship’s ruler means some one measures everything and could be a miser. Right?

  152. TonyP4
    February 12th, 2009 at 18:54 | #152

    Is Lin Chi-Ling the same Taiwan model actress in Red Cliff?

  153. Steve
    February 12th, 2009 at 19:19 | #153

    @ Hong Konger: I haven’t seen Red Cliff but I have read Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I’ve also read the Golden Lotus, Dream of the Red Chamber and the Water Margin, also known as Outlaws of the Marsh. I haven’t yet read Journey to the West but I’ve seen a couple of plays here in San Diego that used excepts from those tales about the Monkey King.

    @ TonyP4: Hey, I’ve got you beat on the Three Kingdoms, ha ha. God of Gamblers is the movie I saw on that bus, the one of Chow’s I liked the best. I also really liked the first Chinese Ghost Story; saw it when it first came out at a Chinese Film Festival here.

    I like the older version of Michelle Yeoh better than the younger version. She was good then but has more class and elegance now. Those old Zhang Yimou/Gong Li movies didn’t do much for me and I can’t fathom why Zhang Ziyi is so popular. I’ve got to find Red Cliff and check that one out, since I already know the story and it seems from the comments here that the actors are all very good. When reading the book, I found myself drawn to the Zhuge Liang character the most. I guess the tactician appeals to me more than the warrior. 😛

  154. Steve
    February 12th, 2009 at 19:25 | #154

    @ Hong Konger: Actually, Pride’s Deadly Fury was released right after Shaolin Temple with Jet Li. The actors were from the Beijing Wushu team so they knew their stuff. Some of it is exaggerated but for the most part, it’s pretty accurate in terms of martial arts.

    One of my friends here in San Diego, originally from Reading, England, lived in Taiwan and Hong Kong back in the ’70s and worked as a martial arts fighter in films back then. Of course he would play the tough guy, ha ha. He did “movie martial arts” so in the morning, the director might say, “Today you’ll be a white crane expert” so that’s the style he’d imitate, then later in the day he’d have to be a “praying mantis” expert. You can’t know all the styles, but he had to be able to look like he knew them. He got beat up a lot.

  155. TonyP4
    February 12th, 2009 at 20:49 | #155

    Hey Steve, can you read Chinese or you read the translated version? Japanese business folks use the Romance of 3 Kingdoms for strategy and I read a book translated into Chinese on this topic by a Japanese and I should say it is quite good. However, I do not find they’re useful at all in today’s environment, but I’m no business man. It is more useful to read books like ‘how to make friends and influence people’.

    Thankful to be a Chinese and can read the classics you mentioned. They’re really great. I can only read traditional Chinese. Being semi retired, I enjoy reading Chinese history. We did not learn the history on opium war and after, being a British colony in HK. The long Chinese history is not a lot applicable to today’s society and it is too lengthy as a high school subject. The condensed version is not too interesting. Now, I’m having a good time. Skipping chapter on rape of Nanking and Iris Chang’s book – the human disaster is to hard for me to bear even it is so long ago.

    Try Coming Home. I was deeply touched by this simple movie.

  156. Steve
    February 12th, 2009 at 21:40 | #156

    Hi Tony~

    Unfortunately, I can’t read Chinese, except to memorize the highway signs when I drove around Taiwan, since I drove everywhere by myself without a problem. There are several good (or at least very readable) translations of all those great books. I felt Three Kingdoms was important since it seemed every guy I met in China had read it a few times. I once compared a business situation with Zhuge Liang waving a fan on the wall of the city while the opposing army approached as a metaphor to things not being what they might seem. It scored me a lot of points! 🙂

    It seems the most referenced story that I heard was when Zhuge Liang (no wonder I like the guy) needed to get arrows for the army so he had the night raid down the river where the boats were filled with straw. The enemy shot so many arrows and all they had to do when they got back was pull them out of the straw. That’s a great story!

    I read Dream of the Red Chamber because it seemed to be every Chinese girl’s (except my wife, who never had any interest in it) favourite story. I felt it would allow me to understand the women better. The first classic I read was Water Margin, which is just a great story. I had to check out The Golden Lotus since it is China’s version of 1001 Arabian Nights or The Decameron. After reading that, I knew every golddigger trick, ha ha!

    For business tactics, the two that tend to get referenced the most in Asia are Sun Tzu’s Art of War and Miyamoto Musashi’s Book of Five Rings. I studied the Art of War when learning Xingyiquan because it’s important to understand tactics that can be applied not only to armies but also to individual situations. We even test on it for our black belts. The Book of Five Rings is used by many Japanese businessmen so I felt I had to know it because I’d be dealing with Japanese companies.

    The difference between Eastern and Western business books is that in the West, we tend to look at business like a sports competition, while in the East it is more often compared to war. I think both can be applicable but in war, it’s always a win/lose proposition while in sports that part of it isn’t emphasized as much. I even read a Japanese magazine article translated into English that talked about the Landchester Theory, which I thought made a lot of sense and used it myself in certain situations.

    I agree that everything you need to know about sales is contained in that Dale Carnegie book, the first sales book every written. The other good one is S.P.I.N. Selling by Neil Rackham. Again, it emphasizes a win/win approach.

    I love Chinese history. American history covers a short timeframe so it’s easy to learn it all, but Chinese history just goes on and on, so I can never know it thoroughly. Have you ever seen the Why We Fight movies from WWII? They were directed by Frank Capra and each one covered a different part of the war. The one on China is excellent and taught me more about Nanjing than any book. A very good friend of ours here in town, Nancy Lo, is very involved in keeping the memory of Nanjing alive and forcing Japan to recognize what had happened there. She was also good friends with Iris Chang before Iris committed suicide. That was so sad but it seemed no one could save her.

    I saw Coming Home when it came out in 1978. Good flick but I forget most of it now. I do remember Jon Voight (now known primarily as Nick Cage’s father in National Treasure and Angelina Jolie’s father in real life) being excellent in it.

  157. Hong Konger
    February 13th, 2009 at 01:50 | #157

    # 151 Tony: “At one time HK kids imitated him with a tooth pick and jacket in hot summer days – HKer, are you one of those kids?”

    LOL…. No, I was always in tank top and shorts imitating Bruce Lee as a kid. But I used to say “系甘现,
    唔系咪野啊?” (So long, get lost, so what?) and “女人系茶褒” (Women are trouble) alot – some of Chow’s many famous Tv and movie phrases.

    Oh, the then virginal Zhang ZhiYi was in her most attractive stage in “Coming Home,” as a village girl always waiting for her teacher husband’s return, right? Hm, I don’t remember Jon Voight in it….maybe I am confused.

    Hey, here’s a beautifully made movie with Edward Norton and Naomi Watts in the hills of Sichuan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oevR8c35Qk

    The Painted Veil, shot in China, ..Shooting for Edward was amazing. “The experience of all the places we worked was new and fresh to me, and really wonderful to work with Chinese colleagues and initially feel like you’re struggling to communicate across the language barrier. And then, in a fairly short time, find that you have much more in common with these people who also do what you do; they’re your brothers in filmmaking, and they know the same things you know. You find the little quirks of the way they work that is different from the way you work, but on the whole, I liked it much more than just being a tourist. I liked it much more than just traveling through a place; to work in a place and know the people is much more rewarding.”

    Naomi had just gotten off shooting King Kong and came straight to location for The Painted Veil, which was a complete culture shock. “I was looking for something that was distinctly Chinese in that mountain region, even though it’s only one small part of China; you’re not going to find that anywhere else. I went there under the assumption that there was a database of location stills in a room and it doesn’t exist; it was a matter of flying via word-of-mouth.

    / “Is Lin Chi-Ling the same Taiwan model actress in Red Cliff?”

    Yes, Tony, she plays the angelic Xiao Qiao, the love and desire of two great Generals: Husband General Gan Xing (甘興) and Cao Cao.

    # 153 Steve:

    The handsome actor, Takeshi Kaneshiro(金城武) is the historical tactical genius, Zhuge Liang, your favorite character.
    Director John Woo said that the film will use primarily the historical record Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms as a blueprint for the Battle of Red Cliffs, rather than the historical novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms. As such, traditionally vilified characters such as Cao Cao and Zhou Yu will be given a more historically accurate treatment in the film.

  158. Hong Konger
    February 13th, 2009 at 02:27 | #158

    Water Margin (1972) Shaw Brothers (HK) Production

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUgWTylnSRA&feature=related

  159. S.K. Cheung
    February 13th, 2009 at 06:30 | #159

    To Hker #147:
    ““An Autumn’s Tale.” – superb flick
    “with the beautiful Cherrie Chung” – no argument from me.

    And what can you say about “A Better Tomorrow” – revived Chow’s career, showed people Leslie Cheung was more than just a pretty face, one of the best Chinese songs off all time IMO, and launched trench coats. Not bad for one movie.

  160. Hong Konger
    February 13th, 2009 at 06:50 | #160

    To SKC # 159:

    First time I saw Leslie, I just didn’t like him. This was back in the early 1980s….I totally changed my view of Leslie Cheung after his fantastic performance in “Farewell My Concubine.” The guy just looked better and better with age, like Sean Connery, Jack Nicolson, Pierse Brosnan, etc. and certainly YF Chow too.

    Like I mentioned before, Chow Yun fat is Mark 哥 personified in “A better Tomorrow.”

    Ever heard of HK’s best known Stand-up Comedian, Wong Zi Wa?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Glin0E1Fs&feature=PlayList&p=72F6A2E52F3B8828&playnext=1&index=2

    Happy Valentine folks.

  161. Hong Konger
    February 13th, 2009 at 06:58 | #161

    P O T E N T I A L S according to Bruce Lee, Li Bai etc….::LOL::

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNO7jQmjS7c&feature=related

  162. S.K. Cheung
    February 13th, 2009 at 08:04 | #162

    To Hker:
    ““Farewell My Concubine.”- never saw that one. But I agree about Leslie Cheung. I was more of an Alan Tam guy initially myself, insofar as music anyway.

  163. TonyP4
    February 13th, 2009 at 14:51 | #163

    Hi Steve & HKer,

    Steve, you must be one of those foreign devils who can use chop sticks better than I in a Chinese restaurant and makes me ashamed. LOL. Some say Romance of 3 Kingdoms should be read when you’re young so you can take advantage of others with the tricks learned. LOL again. I found it very mind stimulating so it can ease my potential ‘old-timer’ disease.

    Cao Cao could be smarter than Zhuge Liang – at least a better leader and he succeeded in uniting most of China. His wife was from the pleasure house. Both Cao Cao and Warren Buffet have sth in common: frugal living, how to make use of current conditions, good wife, good family example…

    With both good genes, the 2 sons were very smart. One was the successor and the other one could make a great poem during the time to walk 8 steps that his jealous brother ordered him to do. The poem about roasting the bean nut using the fire from the nut root is great. It reflects both of them are from the same plant, why have to roast so fast to kill each other.

    Everything concern with woman and romance could not be 100% true. It makes the story more interesting. Thanks to the first emperor of China, the written language was united and we can read history even 4,000 years old. Some needed to be explained, like the ancient systems and names of places. I do not think some of the amusing slang invented in HK will be understood in 200 years.

    ‘Women are troubles (troubles in English sounds same as tea bowl in Cantonese)” from Autumn’s Tale – for the benefits of foreign devils? May I add “Men are kettles” (with the spouts). Is Chow’s Hakka? He was from a poor country in a fishing village off from HK island if I remember correctly. I have the DVD of Hong Kong 1945 (or some year like that). It is pretty good and most parts could be true about the Japanese governing HK.

    I do enjoy several films made in China. The names could be wrong: Mask Master, My Father (about a prodigy playing piano). The documentary Up the Yangtze by a Canadian Chinese is quite good too. With the huge potential market, film making in China should be prosperous.

    Leslie should commit suicide in the privacy of his own house. Was he in depression or he was dieing of AIDS? I watched his first performance from YouTube. He was great but not greater than Anita Mui in her first performance. A while ago, I saw Anita’s picture in MGM in Vegas and do not know why. My conclusion is all famous entertainers/celebrities die early as they made a bargain with God so their youngful beauty will be remembered for ever. That’s why I’m old and ugly. 🙂

  164. TonyP4
    February 13th, 2009 at 15:13 | #164

    Allen Tam’s face must have gone thru a lot of re-construction.

    Anita and Leslie’s movie about Anita coming back from the dead to find her lover who was supposed to die after her but did not. Cannot remember the English name. The movie and the song are quite good.

  165. Hong Konger
    February 13th, 2009 at 17:15 | #165

    # 164

    Tony, the movie you mentioned above is called “Rouge” 胭脂扣

    http://www.fivestarlaser.com/movies/11081.html

    I remember I really liked this one:

    Leslie Cheung “Viva Erotica” 色情男女 with taiwanese sex goddess 舒淇Shu Qi (1996 HK Drama )

  166. Hong Konger
    February 13th, 2009 at 18:00 | #166

    Tony,

    Yes, Chow Y F is hakka (广东宝安人) from the small HK fishing village of Lamma Island南丫岛

    He made his name in the1976 TV drama series 狂潮, and from there网中人and 上海滩

    Have you seen The Red Violin?

    IN the movie, the very talented Taiwanese actress and Award winning Director 张爱嘉 was a cultural revolutionist leader with bourgeois taste, namely classical music – and owned the legendary nearly 300 year old red violin…

    Chow Yun Fat and 张爱嘉《阿郎的故事》

    I love her movie: 海南鸡饭 (Hainan Chicken Rice) filmed in Singapore, with your classmate,
    Martin Yan of Yan can cook.

    THE RED VIOLIN

    Francois Girard’s Thirty Two Short Films About Glen Gould (1993) was a remarkable and fascinating film that explored the complexity of the great pianist through a series of short episodes. Now Girard offers up a very different film that is also made on an episodic structure and in which, once again, music is central to the themes and story. In The Red Violin, the instrument itself provides the unifying element as Girard follows its history over three centuries. Yes, 3 centuries..From Italy to Austria to Mao’s China to Montreal…..

    In the first of five segments, Nicolo Bussotti, a master violinmaker in seventeenth century Italy, is making his masterpiece instrument in anticipation of the birth of his son. Mother and son both die during childbirth, but the stricken Bussotti completes the instrument as an homage to his lost wife and to the unrealized life of his lost infant son.
    A century later, the violin is in the possession of an Austrian order of monks who shelter orphans – and teach them to play the violin. The red violin is played by the most gifted of the orphans who is taken in hand by a French music master and groomed for an audition with the prince. In the third episode, the violin is played by Frederick Pope (Jason Flemyng), an aristocratic English musician in the nineteenth century, involved in a passionate affair with Victoria Byrd, a novelist (Greta Scacchi). The violin continues around the world, the next part of the story set in the Cultural Revolution in China, where the instrument is owned by a leader of the repressive regime. She, (张爱嘉) at risk for protecting the instrument, since Western music has been proscribed as decadent, knows that the violin must be saved, and she turns it over to an old music teacher for safekeeping.
    In the final episode, the Chinese authorities, now in possession of the late music teacher’s collection, consign it to auction in Montreal. An expert appraiser (Samuel L. Jackson) recognizes the violin, uncovers the secrets of it origins, and steals it from under the noses of the avid bidders, all of whom relate to the earlier episodes of the story.
    Each segment of the tale is told beautifully with handsome settings, lavish costuming, first rate acting, and accomplished cinematography.

  167. TonyP4
    February 13th, 2009 at 19:39 | #167

    Hi HKer, now I remember the Red Violin. I saw some other movies Cheung made and she is pretty good. I did not know Yan Can Act, haha. Did Cheung star in Drink, Eat, Man and Woman – one of the interesting literal translation like Crouching Tiger. When Crouching Tiger was announced, some folks found the title was stupid, but who is laughing to the bank?

    The song in Rough is quite haunting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taZ6QYNO4rk

    I watched Story of Ah Long – quite good as usual with the 2 stars.

    Chow is a waste of talent in Hollywood. He made over 100 movies/series before he came here. I watched the SH Bund many years ago. I still have several series I bought in HK that I need to find time to watch.

    Thanks for the info.

    Hi Steve, I found Art of War is a little applicable for business and for urban war like the one in Iraq that is very tough to win without fighter jets and missiles.

  168. Hong Konger
    February 14th, 2009 at 03:18 | #168

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuuqzmIPOV8&feature=related

    Tony,

    Watching this MV + Live concert, and Leslie’s live version of Rouge gave me goose-pimples.

    Beautiful voice.

  169. Steve
    February 14th, 2009 at 06:14 | #169

    @ TonyP4 #163: I don’t think you have anything to worry about concerning my use of chopsticks. I’m just trying not to drop anything on the way to my mouth. Foreign devil? I once told a bar girl who was bothering me that I was Taiwanese. She said, “You don’t look Taiwanese” so I told her I had an eye job and a nose job and I was Taiwanese. She was really confused! Anytime you take someone out of their comfort zone, it’s a lot of fun to watch their reactions. 😛

    Cao Cao was the clever and more ruthless one. I think the reason he was able to achieve more than Zhuge Liang was because he wanted power, while Zhuge Liang only held power reluctantly. Desire counts for a lot, huh?

    If Bush had read the Art of War, he might have managed to “fight without fighting” and would not have needed the fighter jets and missiles. That is the ultimate war tactic, to achieve your goals without having to physically fight for them.

    Rouge is definitely my favourite Anita Mui song. I hadn’t heard Leslie’s live version before and it was very nice. Thanks for that vid, Hong Konger!

    I saw Eat Drink Man Woman when it first came out and thought it was hilarious. It’s still my favourite Ang Lee movie.

  170. S.K. Cheung
    February 14th, 2009 at 06:42 | #170

    To HKer:
    “He made his name in the1976 TV drama series 狂潮, and from there网中人and 上海滩”
    “Chow Yun Fat and 张爱嘉《阿郎的故事》”

    Ahhh, HKer, you’ve helped to bring back some memories…with the possible exception of the brutally bad haircuts of the 1970’s.

    To Tony P4 #163:
    I thought Leslie took a flyer off a building. And I heard he was depressed over Roman’s (the singer) death, which I think was related to AIDS. I thought Anita Mui died of cancer.

  171. TonyP4
    February 14th, 2009 at 14:38 | #171

    Hi SKC, Anita died of ovarian cancer, a common disease with ladies over 30 and never have children. It could be a easy fix, but she wanted to save her ability to bear children. I just cannot find any HK divas today comparable to her.

    Hi Steve, they have many incidents that the castle was abandoned wo fighting. You need to let them know the army is not going to kill, rob and rape when they surrender. How you use this in real business dealing? I wonder whether you told her about a mouth job. 🙂

    HKer, thanks for the video clip. You still look like the kid with a tooth pick and wearing a trench coat in a hot summer day. 🙂

  172. February 14th, 2009 at 14:51 | #172

    @Steve – Bush was an expert in a different style all his own – “fight without winning”

  173. Steve
    February 14th, 2009 at 16:44 | #173

    @ FOARP: Unfortunately, most Americans see Bush’s policy as “fight, spend and borrow without winning”. 🙁

    @ TonyP4: I have no idea how you use it for business, since I’m American and we compare everything to either baseball or football, ha ha. I liked the Landchester Theory for business because it established how building market share beyond a certain point would so limit your competition that you’d soon tie up almost all the market. I found that worked in my business; if I had a market share over against my competitors of 1.7 to 1 or higher, my reputation, stocking level, price margins, etc. would give me an overwhelming advantage so that number was always my goal.

    I never heard much about my mouth in China but did hear a lot about my chin and eyelashes. Once a girl asked me if my mom had plucked out my eyelashes when I was a baby. I didn’t think she did and asked the girl why she thought that. She said it was because they were so long. Being a guy, I had never looked at my eyelashes before so that night I checked them out and they curl up so that was unusual over there and something women seemed to notice. My wife also wishes her eyelashes were longer; that seems to be a common desire for Chinese women.

    A cultural tidbit I found interesting was that Chinese women prefer men to be clean shaven, while Japanese and Korean women seem to like beards or other facial hair. I have no idea why…

  174. TQ
    February 15th, 2009 at 02:21 | #174

    Tony, You totally lost me there. What’s a mouth job? Did you mean Braces for teeth ? I seem to see a lot of that with “Western” teenagers – it’s getting more so with HK kids also.

    Steve, I guess we all want what we don’t have. Russell Peters, a Canadian of Indian descent in his standup comedy show considers the small slanted oriental eyes attractive, and body hair not so disireable etc. I know almost all my caucasian friends consider petite Sandy Lam Yik Lin a quintessential oriental beauty. Oh, make no mistake, I love Sandy Lam, and yes, she is attractive, but I’m with HKer, it’s girls like Ling Chi Ling that knocks me over. 😉

  175. Steve
    February 15th, 2009 at 05:34 | #175

    Hi TQ~

    Tony is our resident comedian so he was just busting me, as usual. I don’t think he was referring to braces for teeth. 😛

    Since I’ve been married to an “oriental beauty” for a very long time (put it this way, our youngest son is in law school) you can guess what I think about my wife’s “almond eyes”. She’s the first asian woman I ever dated and it was love at first sight. Smooth skin and less body hair is definitely a benefit. No matter who I see in the movies or magazines, she is always my #1. 😉

  176. Hong Konger
    February 15th, 2009 at 07:53 | #176

    SKC,

    What’s wrong with 70s haircuts? I hear the Wayne Gretzky / McGyver mullet hairstyle is having a comeback in Cnanda !

    AH……….”Oh sinner man, where can you run to, O sinner man…”

    Tony,

    “HKer, thanks for the video clip. You still look like the kid with a tooth pick and wearing a trench coat in a
    hot summer day.”

    Oh man, what I wouldn’t give to be that young, handsome and impressionable again. (Chuckles)

    Steve,

    Waiting a second….But I thought your wife is Hakka (no?) I’ve been told hakkas have big pretty square eyes with double-folding eyelids. (????)

    Actually, I love almond eyes too..

  177. S.K. Cheung
    February 15th, 2009 at 08:22 | #177

    To TQ:
    Russell Peters, there’s one hilarious guy. He can do accents like nobody’s business. His “CHinglish” accent is better than most people who speak Chinglish.
    I never found Sandy Lam to be that attractive, or that good of a singer. I’ve also seen the Lin Chi LIng pix, and I must say, she’s pretty enough, but not in a striking or unique way. I don’t think she’d stand out in a magazine or catwalk full of lookers.

    To HKer:
    yes, Gretzky’s hair gets a little long sometimes. But based on the team he’s coaching, I think he’s too busy pulling his hair out to worry about how it looks. His team got spanked on Canadian national TV tonight (well, I guess they made it close at the end).

  178. Hong Konger
    February 15th, 2009 at 09:19 | #178

    # 177

    SKC:

    I do agree with ya that Ling Chi Ling may not be the looker with the most to show on the catwalk, but she is IMHO, the most desireable woman in the world. Seeing her in person, at 5foot 10″ plus high heels, she is stunning though. But still, you don’t know until you hear her speak, and that’s when you’ll feeeeeeeeel the full Chi Ling effect…LOL…Russell Peters has this bit about Arab girls………He said he gets aroused just hearing them talk without looking at them and not understanding Arabic….well, yunno, who knows if that ‘s true or an act …

  179. TonyP4
    February 15th, 2009 at 16:11 | #179

    Sorry about the mouth joke. From the dictionary, it is defined by

    http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/mouth%20job

    as:

    mouth job:
    Mouth-to-penis or mouth-to-vulva stimulation. See fellatio and cunnilingus for synonyms.

    —-
    Example of use. If Ms. Lewinsky’s mouth job is good for the president, it must be good for you.

    Also known as. Blow job.

    Sorry to lower the moral standard of this blog. 🙂

  180. TonyP4
    February 15th, 2009 at 16:27 | #180

    ‘Hi Steve, they have many incidents that the castle was abandoned wo fighting. You need to let them know the army is not going to kill, rob and rape when they surrender. How you use this in real business dealing?’

    One example. Carl Icahn told the executive of a company, “I like to raid your company. Instead of using my billions to take over, I will let you survive in the new company, will not dissolve the companies with the valuable asset, and will not ‘rape’ all the women in the company – please surrender.” 🙂

  181. Hong Konger
    February 15th, 2009 at 23:51 | #181

    “Sorry to lower the moral standard of this blog.”

    What’s wrong with talking about sex?

    Just yesterday I told a religious friend of mine, “The greatest part of God’s creation is so screwed up by religion – pun intended.”

    Has anyone seen the amazing actor Meryl Streep’s latest Oscar quality movie” “Doubt” ?

    Steve, you (I assume you are a recovering Catholic….I am an agnostic and a recovering Protestant) would probably appreciate this movie, as I, too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1vcW_zvVRk

    It ‘s ALL about sex without ever showing a naked body or a word of profanity uttered. It’s an amazing movie-!

  182. Hong Konger
    February 16th, 2009 at 00:06 | #182

    I say old boys. If it’s good enough for the stiff upper lip limeys in a bow tie and tuxedo diner, it’s good enough for the audience gathered at the foot of Fool’s Mountain.

    Monthy Python:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGRPFUYUUdQ&feature=related

  183. S.K. Cheung
    February 16th, 2009 at 01:19 | #183

    To HKer:
    “Doubt”- one more for my to-do list, right after Slumdog. Phillip Seymour Hoffman is an amazing actor. It seems your taste in beer is equaled by your taste in cinema.

  184. Hong Konger
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:57 | #184

    SKC,

    Oh yes, Phillip Seymour Hoffman is an amazing actor. Loved him as “Capote,”

    I faintly remember him in Along came Polly…

    Pop Quiz time: IN what movie was Philip Seymour Hoffman the corrupt preacher, Reverend Veasey ???

    Oh, here’s another one:
    A homophobic New York police officer had to take singing lessons to help him improve his speech after having a stroke. Instead of going to a professional voice coach, De Niro turns for help from Philip Seymour Hoffman, a transsexual drag performer.Turns out they have a great deal in common. What movie am I describing?

  185. dan
    February 16th, 2009 at 16:36 | #185

    Pop quiz answer #184′
    ‘Cold Mountain’ ?

  186. Steve
    February 16th, 2009 at 17:01 | #186

    @ Hong Konger #176: When we met, my wife (who IS Hakka on both sides) described herself as having “almond eyes and a garlic nose”, though her nose certainly doesn’t look like garlic to me, ha ha. I did learn in China that she has a “middle nose”. Her eyes are actually different from any other eyes I’ve seen in China or Taiwan, very unique. They are bigger than most, very expressive and the sides have a small crease that makes them look longer. When we were in Japan and Korea, the people there just assumed she was Japanese or Korean, so I guess she doesn’t have a classic “Chinese” look.

    The eyes are the windows to the soul, right? 😉

    I have to say that hearing Arab women speak does not arouse me. Russell Peters must have a thing about forbidden fruit, ha ha.

    Well, TQ, now you have a better understanding of Tony. I knew EXACTLY what he meant when he wrote it. Tony is very popular on this here blog. 😛

    @ TonyP4 #180: Only problem was that after they gave the company to Carl Icahn without a fight, he proceeded to dissolve all the valuable assets, then raped all the women. He claimed his fingers were crossed when he said it.

    Hong Konger, I haven’t seen Doubt yet but it seems intriguing. Hard for a movie to miss when it has both Meryl Streep and Philip Seymour Hoffman. They are two actors who it seems can protray anyone from any culture.

    That’s a classic Python bit. I sent that song to a friend of mine in Shanghai last year. I guess you can sing about anything if you do it in a genteel fashion. 🙂

  187. Steve
    February 16th, 2009 at 17:03 | #187

    Dan got the first one, and I believe the second is “Flawless”.

  188. Hong Konger
    February 17th, 2009 at 01:05 | #188

    Very good Dan & Steve.!

    Yes, they are Cold Mountain & Flawless.

    “almond eyes and a garlic nose”,

    LOL….my adopted HAKKA mother, God rest her soul, was a beautiful and educated woman. But she used to complain about her nose as being too big. She had big bright eyes like the way you describe your lovely wife’s.

    ” I guess you can sing about anything if you do it in a genteel fashion. ”

    Now isn’t that the key to influencing people? Not sure about making friends, though.

    I always say, it’s not what you say, but how you say it that matters. Dry humor is not my forte, but I love them when it’s done right.

    Tony,

    How long have you been away from Hong Kong? A lot of my relatives are in Vancouver. It’s funny because I used to heard a lot of returnees complaining about the boring lifestyles in the USA/UK/Cananda. This was especially so in the 1980s and 90s. I guess now it’s a different world there. With a bigger Asian population nowadays in certain parts of the aforementioned countries, more HKers are happy to stay and integrate..

    Yes, SKC, I agree that Russell Peters can do accents like nobody’s business. His “CHinglish” accent is better than most people who speak Chinglish. Seriously, I was telling my friend the other day about that and you are right, I couldn’t do the cantonese-English., and I my mother tongue is Cantonese. LOL

  189. TommyBahamas
    February 17th, 2009 at 09:12 | #189

    Sometging to chuckle about, indeed….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2AiRyUmLnA&feature=related

  190. TonyP4
    February 17th, 2009 at 15:26 | #190

    HKer, I’ve left HK over 30 years. It is tough for HKers to adept to the life in Vancouver. However, once they settle down, they will find it is a better life. First, for half of the money to buy a flat (1,0000 sq ft), you can buy the 3000 sq feet in a 20,000 sq ft lot – for example. Second, you can add 3 years to your life due to less water/air/noise pollution – add 2 more years due to better health care, less money problem, and less greasy food – on second thought add 2 more years due to less chance to get diseases from your second wife.

    Vancouver is warmer than the rest of Canada due to the warm current from the south. If you feel boring, just take a plane to HK and/or China. Then you get the best of both worlds.

  191. S.K. Cheung
    February 17th, 2009 at 17:42 | #191

    To TonyP4:
    completely unrelated to the current discussion, but since you live in Vancouver like CTalk, I was wondering what your experiences have been vis-a-vis racism. For a description of our relative “experiences”, see this thread prior to comment #131. I realize an n of 3 does not make it much more compelling than an n of 2, but I’m curious nonetheless. To me, CTalk’s experiences are of historical relevance only, and not applicable to Canada circa 2009. Maybe I’m wrong.

  192. TonyP4
    February 17th, 2009 at 18:15 | #192

    Sorry, I’m from Boston area. I have my share of discrimination in US for sure.

    – When you’re good-looking like Steve’s wife, you’ll not face discrimination. When I was first in this country, I believe I was better looking :), more than one time, Americans thought I was Japanese even though there were not too many Japanese in that small town in CA.

    – My wife’s complexion is whiter than the regular white. So, it is racial rather than the color of your skin.

    – I received the top honor one year from my VP. The discrimination stuffs came to me after that. A lot were jealousy from uneducated folks.

    – Chinese in Vancouver were discriminated at one time due to the wealth they bought in from Hong Kong. If your house double in value, why you discriminate the one that makes it happens.

  193. S.K. Cheung
    February 17th, 2009 at 18:32 | #193

    To TonyP4:
    oops, my mistake. You live in a nice city. I lived in Massachusetts for several years, and I must say I didn’t have a problem there either wrt racism. I did, however, have difficulty locating the “r’s” in the native people’s spoken English 🙂

  194. February 18th, 2009 at 14:11 | #194

    @HKer #178 – Like MC Hotdog said in 我爱台妹: ” 对我来说林志玲算什么?”

  195. Steve
    February 18th, 2009 at 16:24 | #195

    @ Hong Konger #178: After reading your description of Lin Chi Ling, I did some snooping around YouTube so I could hear this voice you love so much. What did I find? First of all, don’t pick a fight with her, she uses ALL her assets to win. 🙂

    I thought you might enjoy hearing her voice while she wore this see through dress at the Goldenhorse awards.

    And to hear her in English, I found this interview in Munich, Germany.

  196. HongKonger
    February 21st, 2009 at 10:10 | #196

    Tony,

    I don’t know much about Boston except for their famous lobsters, the 80s rock band and the tea party that started the revolution. As for Massachusetts, only the song by Bee Gees, MIT and the Merlin Titanium XLM and Seven Cycle Ti – Sola Mountain bike frames I used to own. For some reason, I have this image in my head of read leaves (like Toronto), tweed jackets and frothy John Adams ale.

    Steve,

    You have made me a very happy man – What a treat, LCL in her see-thru dress.

    “You have made my day.” Thanks! 🙂

  197. HongKonger
    February 21st, 2009 at 10:23 | #197

    ” I have my share of discrimination in US for sure.”

    Oh, discriminations are everywhere. In Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, the Non – Chinese get it, the Chinese in certain western establisments get it, the westerners get it too from time to time.

    FOARP: ” 我爱台妹: 对我来说林志玲算什么?”

    ” 我爱台妹,港妹,玻妹,韩妹,对我来说林志玲是我第二春的女神,而林青霞是我第一春的梦美人” :-)

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