Home > Analysis, News, Opinion, politics > Taiwan weapons sales, citizens best buzz off

Taiwan weapons sales, citizens best buzz off

September 19th, 2011 Leave a comment Go to comments

(Update Sept 21, 2011, courtesy of Ray. Click to see Chinese characters outside the cockpit. Update Oct. 2, 2011; Turns out this picture was photoshopped. See comment #52 onward.))

The last time the U.S. sold weapons to Taiwan ($6.4 billion worth in January 2010) led to China suspending military-to-military contacts with the U.S.. Senator Dianne Feinstein, who also chairs Senate’s Select Committee on Intelligence, has subsequently said in public the weapons sale was a mistake. In the news again, looks like Obama is approving the sales of upgrades to Taiwan’s fleet of F-16 jet fighters. As expected, China is warning strong reaction if any sort of deal going through. (See “Backlash expected if US seals arms deal.”)

While the U.S. has the Taiwan Relations Act, she is also bound by the August 17 Communique signed by Reagan in 1982 whereby arms sales to Taiwan will gradually diminish and completely phase out. For more on China’s perspective on this issue, I highly recommend this article by Tao Wenzhao, a researcher at the Center for US-China Relations at Tsinghua University.

The latest narrative in the Western media is that Obama not selling new and advanced jetfighters to Taiwan. Therefore, the U.S. is actually caving into China’s demands by going so far as selling upgrade kits only. That view is apparently held too by the Greenies according to this article:

The Formosan Association for Public Affairs said Taiwanese-Americans were deeply disappointed over reports that Obama had decided against selling the F-16C/Ds, the Taipei Times reported.

“It is regrettable that the Obama administration is letting the PRC [China] set the terms for U.S. relations with a democratic Taiwan,” FAPA president Bob Yang.

“[Taiwanese] President Ma [Ying-jeou] has gone through the motions of requesting the new F-16C/Ds, but has not been serious about Taiwan’s defense, allowing the defense budget to wither and Taiwan’s capabilities to deteriorate.”

Well, I should add, according to Greenies in the U.S.!

But, the truth is, things for the public is very unclear. According to this research paper, U.S. actions and policies on this issue cannot be viewed as those from an ‘actor.’ Rather, they are results of bureaucracies and contention of different perspectives – in secret. The public and media can only speculate. The paper said:

While discussing the issue of US arms sales to Taiwan, Patrick Tyler, former New York Times Bureau Chief in Beijing, said, ‘The decision on arms sales to Taiwan was made after secret deliberations among Pentagon and State Department (hereafter: State) bureaucrats using criteria that had never been publicly disclosed or vetted. The full measure of American military assistance to Taiwan was classified “secret”, as if the American public could not be trusted to know how deeply involved the US was becoming with Taiwan’s military’

So, unless the Chinese and American governments make public their conversations for us mere mortals, we will have a hard time gauging the direction this issue is heading. We buzz off or sit around and speculate.

For now though as Tao Wenzhao said, selling weapons to Taiwan undermines strategic trust between U.S. and China. This is at the people level too. See this Open Letter from a Chinese netizen to President Obama after the 2010 weapons deal was announced.

The U.S. media also likes to push this narrative that the weapons are to guard a ‘vibrant democracy’ from threats from the Mainland. That is nonsense. Given China prizes peace and stability for her own development, there is no reason for China to threaten Taiwan. The only circumstance would be Taiwan declaring independence. Hong Kong is a ‘vibrant democracy’ too and arguably even closer. It functions just fine without any outside weapons sale to it.

I’d add, such narrative is the media propagandizing for the arms dealers. Such is also taking a separatist view towards the Taiwan issue.

  1. zack
    September 19th, 2011 at 20:16 | #1

    it’s almost election year, obama needs to show himself as standing up to the Chinese dragon as well as “creating jobs for Americans”.

    to his credit, the last time the arms sale occurred in 2010 (curiously around the time the ECFA agreement was signed, so one could view the arms sale move as a way to split China and Taiwan (ROC)), President Ma’s administration reportedly delayed payment for the weapons as if to indicate their displeasure to the white house.

  2. Ron Jeremy
    September 19th, 2011 at 22:44 | #2

    If you stationed 1000 missiles in Shekou, and pointed them at Hong Kong you might get a few people on Hong Kong asking for military defense capabilities.

    ‘Given China prizes peace and stability for her own development, there is no reason for China to threaten Taiwan. The only circumstance would be Taiwan declaring independence. ‘
    See that last sentence…..that’s a threat. First you say there is ‘no reason’, then you go on to give a reason.

  3. September 19th, 2011 at 23:01 | #3

    @Ron Jeremy
    1000’s of missiles pointing somewhere is another tired and stupid narrative. I am sure both Russia’s and U.S.’s intercontinental ballistic missiles can be programmed in matter of seconds to target any city on this planet. You see how silly that narrative is?

    You sound like a typical agitator.

    Can you think of anything constructive that would improve the relations between the Mainland and Taiwan?

  4. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 00:31 | #4

    Yes, as an act of goodwill, and ‘brotherly love’ remove the missiles from across the strait. Then maybe ask the PRC to stop trying to publicly humiliate the Taiwanese people again and again.

    So Ive got a gun to your head yinyang, but you shouldn’t be more worried than anyone else because I could just as easily shoot the guy across the street. Great way to encourage that loving feeling

    What percentage of Taiwanese are happy to reunify with the PRC right now yinyang, please remind me?

    Perhaps its time to respect the choice of the Taiwanese people…

  5. zack
    September 20th, 2011 at 00:31 | #5

    joint training and closer military cooperation between Beijing and Taipei would be ideal; especially with respect to the South China Sea.

    Perhaps an arrangement can even be reached along the lines of the recent US-Australian agreement where the PLAN may store its equipment on a naval base in Taiwan, thereby providing it with a deep sea port

  6. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 01:04 | #6

    Zack, have you run your idea by many Taiwanese? Seems just a touch fanciful…

  7. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 06:24 | #7

    “If you stationed 1000 missiles in Shekou, and pointed them at Hong Kong you might get a few people on Hong Kong asking for military defense capabilities.”

    If China has any missiles, it would be said to be “pointed at” wherever some wanted to hype the “China Threat”.

    But let’s not mention that China built those missiles to ward off the planes/ships/weapons US gave to Taiwan to raid mainland China in the 1950’s.

    Let’s also not mention that ROC still has troops on small islands like Quimoy in Kinmen county, that’s a stone throw away from mainland China.

    Maybe, if ROC pull out those troops, there wouldn’t be necessities of any Missiles near there?

  8. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 06:33 | #8

    You worried that the ROC government might take back the Mainland Raven?

    I’m sure you’d be safe in California or wherever it is you live. As for the ‘china threat’ China has no one to blame for this but themselves. The funny thing is I read far more about it in China Daily, Xinhua etc than I do in any other Western media. Is it possible that the PRC government itself hypes up the threat as a way of compensating for its bumble-footed PR?

  9. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 06:53 | #9

    “You worried that the ROC government might take back the Mainland Raven?”

    Not as much as you worry about the missiles “pointing at” anywhere.

    “I’m sure you’d be safe in California or wherever it is you live. As for the ‘china threat’ China has no one to blame for this but themselves. The funny thing is I read far more about it in China Daily, Xinhua etc than I do in any other Western media. Is it possible that the PRC government itself hypes up the threat as a way of compensating for its bumble-footed PR?”

    No, it’s your paranoia (which is common to people harboring latent guilt over his ancestor’s colonial imperialist history, overcompensating with his own PR “righteousness” to try to forget the past). 🙂

    I mean, seriously, you are one who constantly pick porn star nicknames, like a classic Freudian overcompensation.

  10. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:11 | #10

    Acutally I’m older than my namesake, though more well- endowed than he…And no more guilt as a colonialist, latent or otherwise, than any Han living outside the central reaches of the Yellow river basin.
    While all these horns were blasting the other day it kind of got me thinking. Since the Chinese attempted to invade Japan at least twice during the Yuan dynasty, do the Japanese have a similar celebration at home? Or was the Yuan dynasty not Chinese so it doesnt count? Either way it seems a shame for them to have to miss out on all the fun.

  11. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:30 | #11

    “Acutally I’m older than my namesake, though more well- endowed than he…And no more guilt as a colonialist, latent or otherwise, than any Han living outside the central reaches of the Yellow river basin.
    While all these horns were blasting the other day it kind of got me thinking. Since the Chinese attempted to invade Japan at least twice during the Yuan dynasty, do the Japanese have a similar celebration at home? Or was the Yuan dynasty not Chinese so it doesnt count? Either way it seems a shame for them to have to miss out on all the fun.”

    Actually, you don’t know your history very well. At the time Mongol Invasion of Japan, 1274, Mongols have not fully conquered Southern China yet. Southern Song Dynasty did not fall until 1279. (2nd Mongol Invasion of Japan was in 1281, barely 2 years after conquest of Song Dynasty).

    Yuan technically began in 1271, but it only controlled northern parts of China at that time.

    The Chinese were partly responsible for the failure of Mongol Invasion of Japan. Kublai Khan tried to assemble his fleet by forcing the Chinese shipbuilders to work day and night. And they sabotage his fleet.

    Japanese celebrated Mongol Invasion failure, of course, and they called it “Divine Wind”, Kamakazi, the storm that sank Kublai’s Fleet.

    And then later, they used that CELEBRATED name to suicide attack on US fleet during WWII.

    Guess you didn’t realize what that “CELEBRATION” would lead to?

    Yeah, some “fun” eh?

  12. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:34 | #12

    “Acutally I’m older than my namesake, though more well- endowed than he…And no more guilt as a colonialist, latent or otherwise, than any Han living outside the central reaches of the Yellow river basin.”

    1st you have your overcompensation, which you are still keeping up by bragging about yourself even more.

    2nd you are just in plain denial. You obviously have a need to keep justifying yourself and US’s “weapon sale”. That’s also overcompensation, which is classic indication of sense of guilt or inadequacy.

  13. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:41 | #13

    So the Chinese celebrate the Japanese invasion, and the Japanese celebrate the 2 failed Chinese invasions. Seems the Japanese are down by an invasion. And since both the 1284, and the 1281 invasions postdate the accepted start date of the Yuan dynasty of 1271 then they count as Chinese invasions I’m afraid…They are Mongol invasions if you consider the Yuan dynasty a Mongol and not a Chinese dynasty. Or are you saying that at some yet to be stated point in time the Mongols suddenly became Chinese. Is this what you mean? If it does I have a whole lot more questions for you if it’s not too much trouble.

  14. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:46 | #14

    Not sure why you think I need to justify the weapons sale to the democratic ROC. Sale or not, there is not a thing you or I can do about it, though I can certainly understand the reasons that many Taiwanese feel the need to increase their defensive capabilities. Can’t you, or are you out of touch?

  15. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:48 | #15

    Come to think about it there may be something yourself and other Americans can do about it at the poll booth next election. Make sure you exercise your right to vote guys.

  16. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:52 | #16

    “So the Chinese celebrate the Japanese invasion, and the Japanese celebrate the 2 failed Chinese invasions. Seems the Japanese are down by an invasion. And since both the 1284, and the 1281 invasions both postdate the accepted start date of the Yuan dynasty of 1271 then they count as Chinese invasions…”

    NOPE. China was still being invaded by the Mongols until 1279. First Mongol Invasion of 1274 was thus NOT Chinese invasion of Japan.

  17. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:54 | #17

    “Not sure why you think I need to justify the weapons sale to the democratic ROC. Sale or not, there is not a thing you or I can do about it, though I can certainly understand the reasons that many Taiwanese feel the need to increase their defensive capabilities. Can’t you, or are you out of touch?”

    I don’t think “you need to”. You STILL DO, and FEEL the need to EXPLAIN yourself!!

    LOL!!

  18. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:57 | #18

    Ron Jeremy :Come to think about it there may be something yourself and other Americans can do about it at the poll booth next election. Make sure you exercise your right to vote guys.

    Sure, you and “other Americans” will feel better about your weapon sales around the world, after that Vote, get drunk, and go back to sleep.

    Tomorrow, another day under your corporate masters. And tomorrow night, reclaim your porn star name to feel “endowed” again.

  19. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 07:58 | #19

    So its 1 invasion each then eh? At 1-1 they should just call it a draw and go home then…
    Still not sure on your dates though. Every reference I have seen cites the Yuan dynasty as starting from 1271.

  20. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 08:02 | #20

    Ron Jeremy :So its 1 invasion each then eh? At 1-1 they should just call it a draw and go home then…Still not sure on your dates though. Every reference I have seen cites the Yuan dynasty as starting from 1271.

    Technically, NO.

    Japan invaded Manchuria and Taiwan during the 1st Sino-Japanese War in 1894.

    Japan 2, China 1.

    Your “not sure” is your “not sure”, not my problem.

  21. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 08:10 | #21

    Well if you insist on 2-1 to Japan then I’m going to have to question why your date at which the Yuan dynasty became Chinese differs from that of many sources including several Chinese government ones I have looked up.

  22. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 08:24 | #22

    1894 doesn’t count as at that time China was already under occupation from the barbarian Manchu’s. Or had they transformed into being Chinese by then?

    So the Japanese have been waiting how long now for a sincere apology for the attempted Chinese invasions?

    Ain’t history interesting

  23. Al
    September 20th, 2011 at 08:49 | #23

    It seems that old misguided Pete/whomeverelse has started again his meaningless rants…the old saying “don’t feed the troll” is still valid..Leave the poor guy to his own lunacy, he’s not really worth any time answering.

  24. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 08:53 | #24

    Ron Jeremy :Well if you insist on 2-1 to Japan then I’m going to have to question why your date at which the Yuan dynasty became Chinese differs from that of many sources including several Chinese government ones I have looked up.

    Well, I don’t know what “sources” you have been “looking up”.

    I don’t answer to unknown “sources”.

  25. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 08:58 | #25

    “1894 doesn’t count as at that time China was already under occupation from the barbarian Manchu’s. Or had they transformed into being Chinese by then?

    So the Japanese have been waiting how long now for a sincere apology for the attempted Chinese invasions?

    Ain’t history interesting”

    I don’t know what “sources” told you that 1894 doesn’t count, because EVERY source I know called it “the First Sino-Japanese War”!!!

    A “sincere apology”? How about a thanks for sabatoging Kublai’s fleet in the 1st Mongol Invasion of Japan?! Well, history can wait. We will see.

  26. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 09:11 | #26

    Call it what you want but China was already under occupation in 1894. Surely you don’t count the Qing as being Chinese. Thats clearly revisionist history. To make some of the sources known to you, here is a quick list

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Dynasty
    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/yuan/hd_yuan.htm
    http://www.history-of-china.com/yuan-dynasty/
    http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_aboutchina/2003-09/24/content_22824.htm
    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90782/90873/7155407.html

    Knock yourself out

    I guess China can wait another 800 years for an apology too…..

  27. raventhorn2000
    September 20th, 2011 at 09:44 | #27

    Call it what you want but Qing was a Chinese Dynasty, (no other Chinese dynasty during that time).

    I call your history revisionist.

    “I guess China can wait another 800 years for an apology too…..”

    Why? I thought Japan already repeatedly apologized, and sent some money/aid to China for it. I call that “admission of guilty”.

    I guess the Japanese people are more civilized than the other “opium” sellers’ descendants. 🙂

  28. September 20th, 2011 at 12:23 | #28

    @raventhorn2000
    Why waste breath on that silly character. The missiles can be pointed at the Japanese trying to invade Taiwan again through Tiaoyu Islands.

    Without the Yuan and Qing, China would not be the size today, it would be much smaller. The fact is China is a country that always grow stronger after invasions as repeated many times in history.

    The Japanese invasion is the catalyst that transformed the red army into the PLA that is capable of unifying China again.

  29. pug_ster
    September 20th, 2011 at 20:02 | #29

    Bah, morons in the US government thinks that they run Taiwan with this Taiwan Relations Act. It is clearly illegal because it violates sovereignty of other governments. Maybe China should have Native Indian Relations Act or Native Hawaiian Relations Act where China can sell weapons to these Natives to overthrow the government who is oppressing them.

  30. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 20:31 | #30

    Well Pugster, you voted the bastards in….

  31. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 20:39 | #31

    ‘Without the Yuan and Qing, China would not be the size today, it would be much smaller. The fact is China is a country that always grow stronger after invasions as repeated many times in history.
    The Japanese invasion is the catalyst that transformed the red army into the PLA that is capable of unifying China again.’

    Sounds like you are almost thankful to the Japanese….

  32. zack
    September 20th, 2011 at 20:53 | #32

    @Ron Jeremy
    given that i am taiwanese and am eligible for the draft and the vote i can answer that i’d be in favour of joint patrols, especially given the cordial relations between the Ma administration and Beijing

  33. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 22:19 | #33

    [deleted by yinyang for trolling]

  34. September 20th, 2011 at 22:44 | #34

    Folks, please ignore Ron Jeremy, Pete North, or whatever porno star he choose to be called. I am just too busy and don’t want to waste time deleting garbage.

  35. Ron Jeremy
    September 20th, 2011 at 23:02 | #35

    They are unable to ignore me. It’s a knee-jerk reaction over which they have no control

  36. September 21st, 2011 at 04:53 | #36

    America knows as well as anyone that if Taiwan makes a bid for Independence their status in the Pacific will be in just as much jeopardy as Taiwan is as likely to become a province of China in less than 2 days. Americas own projections concluded they cannot defend Taiwan much less repel an forceful Chinese takeover. If they are willing to risk that status-quo to protect Taiwan than so be it. China will have Taiwan through war or diplomacy, that has always been China’s stance, the question is, is America willing to bleed for Taiwan. Personally I don’t think so.

    @Ron; are you a libtard or just borderline anti-chinese racist? For example I have no problem admitting that I am very ethnocentric, which means I have no problem with the suppression of Tibetans or Uyghur Muslims where China’s sovereign integrity is concerned. You strike me as a liberal yet you seem only to be able to regurgitate contrarian ethnocentrism as a way to obfuscate the argument where nation state and sovereignty is concerned. It’s a bit confusing because I can’t really place who you are arguing for? Employing political in-correctness in the name of the underdogs? Not very politically correct but than liberals are not known for the consistency. At least have the decency to let people know where you stand, for example: wage war against China to free-tibet? lol.

    If you hate Chinese people; you’re not the first, join the list and wear it like a badge of honor like most rabidly anti-chinese or anti-han (I’m sure many minorities will find your moral support heart warming). There are plenty of races and ethnic minorities that hate the Chinese, after all it’s not only whites who have a monopoly on racism. For example the Vietnamese have no problem displaying their rabid nationalism, they’re proud and love their country, who’s to tell them otherwise? So why should Chinese be ashamed about their ethnocentrism? Because they don’t have democracy? Still better than the glorious democracy that is India – though admittedly that’s not saying much. Your white guilt is not going to free-tibet, bring Taiwan independence or for that matter help unify India.

    ps. what race or nationality are you? if you don’t mind me asking.

  37. xian
    September 21st, 2011 at 07:27 | #37

    @ Cockroach

    Rather blunt, but I sympathize with that realistic viewpoint.

  38. Ron Jeremy
    September 21st, 2011 at 08:12 | #38

    Questioning someones nationality is considered trolling so I am unable to answer you. Be careful.

    I find your honesty towards Chinese racism refreshing, and the others here should take a leaf out of your book, so well done on that count. Certainly your attitude is backed up by many PRC Han I have come across over the years, and this ‘proud ethnocentrism’ also goes some way to explaining why the Han seem to have such poor relations with many of their own ethnic minorities.

    E noho rā

  39. jimmy
    September 21st, 2011 at 09:45 | #39

    The US is such an evil double-dealer ! Perhaps China should be inviting Taliban to Beijing to inquire what they might need (for supplies and items). read http://www.scribd.com/jimmyfung40 for details. Thank you.

  40. September 21st, 2011 at 13:55 | #40

    Taiwan’s F-16 image below – check out the Chinese characters right outside the cockpit. (courtesy of Ray).

  41. raventhorn2000
    September 21st, 2011 at 14:35 | #41

    @jimmy

    No need for back-handing US. It’s going to get its Chicken coming home to roost.

    Look upon US and the West, the historical peddlers of drugs and guns preying on the rest of the world.

    Now see their own descendants becoming victims of guns and drugs in their own borders.

    And see how their “War on Drugs”, “War on Terrorism” fading into empty slogans, while the Mexican cartels and the Middle East Terrorists grow bolder and bolder.

    How long before the Middle East “allies” of US turn on them with weapons US sold to them?! (As the Mexican drug cartels use weapons sold in US against US citizens).

    Such is the inevitable consequences of the West believing in their own wonderful PR, ie. he who fools others so well that he end up fooling himself.

  42. raventhorn2000
    September 21st, 2011 at 15:07 | #42

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

    Some sobering statistics on the US “War on Drugs” in Mexico (LONG forgotten but still there).

    Funny how the Opium Dealer nation has become the drug addict. (Even Hillary Clinton admitted to US’s “insatiable appetite” for drugs fueling the drug war).

    Some Conservatives even want to legalize all guns, all drugs, Prostitution, and Gambling.

    What for? For TAX revenue!!

    *Imagine, a Superpower reduced to tax the Vices (instead of banning them). All I can say is, that Tax Base in US will definitely need all the Moral Righteous PR it can get in the future.

  43. September 28th, 2011 at 00:14 | #43

    Ron Jeremy :

    and this ‘proud ethnocentrism’ also goes some way to explaining why the Han seem to have such poor relations with many of their own ethnic minorities.

    Poor relations relative to who? Europe? – Europeans hate each other so much they needed two world wars; western euros vs eastern euro, Irish vs english, swede vs finn, finns vs russians, russians vs everybody, and so on. The eurozone is on the brink of disintegration so maybe thrid times the charm.
    India? – lol I don’t even know where to start. South East Asia? plenty of anti-chinese hate last time I checked. Malays hate Singaporeans, ethnic Malay hate ethnic Chinese, Indian Singaporeans hate Chinese and vice versa. And that is before the Chinese are Jews of Asia accusations. The only place I can think of is perhaps Korea, Japan and parts of Scandinavia where they have homogeneous populations, even so, in Japan they still discriminate against Koreans, Chinese and even Brazilian Japanese. The Nordic countries are becoming increasingly Islamophobic as more and more Muslims fail to integrate. So tell me where is this multiculti utopia that is the basis of your diversity benchmark?

    Your colourblind leftist fantasy doesn’t exist, but I suspect you know this though that isn’t the point, Han ethnocentrism is just a convenient strawman to dreg up as a way of shouting down any argument that doesn’t conform with your political agenda. As if by the mere fact that ethnic division exists in China means minorities would rather rally behind your leftist cult.

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1045/americans-claim-to-like-diverse-communities-but-do-they-really

    According to the U.S. Census Bureau, while blacks comprise just 12% of the U.S. population, about half of all blacks in 2000 lived in majority-black neighborhoods.2 Hispanics also tend to be clustered into segregated enclaves, though not quite to the same degree as are blacks. Latinos made up 12.5% of the U.S. population and 43% lived in majority-Latino neighborhoods as of 2000. (The table below ranks the nation’s most populous multi-racial and multi-ethnic metropolitan areas by their levels of black/non-black and Hispanic/non-Hispanic residential segregation.)

    Trends in residential segregation have been mixed over the past several decades. Black/white segregation has declined significantly since 1960, when fully 70% of blacks lived in majority black neighborhoods.3 But immigrant segregation as well as Hispanic and Asian segregation has increased in recent decades,4 as has overall economic segregation. From 1970 to 2000, there was a 32% increase in the residential separation of high-income Americans (those in the top income quintile) from all other Americans, according to one analysis of Census data.5 Even with this increasing spatial isolation of the well-to-do, however, blacks are still nearly three times as segregated from whites as are affluent Americans from those who are less well off.

    So, 50 years of civil rights…. clearly, there’s much solidarity between blacks and whites, and muslims.

    A race war is going to engulf China right? lol.

  44. September 28th, 2011 at 09:40 | #44

    @Cockroach
    I think to use the word “hate” to describe ethnic relation in Southeast Asia is too strong. For the last hundred years or so how many, ethnic clashes have emerged? It could be counted with one hand for most Southeast Asian countries. The most serious division is politically religiously imposed. There are no savage wars, pogroms as you mentioned in Europe or lynching incidents, race riots in the US. The conflicts in Patani, Thailand; Aceh, Indonesia; Moro areas of Philippines are more about self rule than ethnicity hatred.

    I have lived and worked for considerable amount of time in both Malaysia and Singapore, so I will elaborate on those countries. The ethnic relation between the Malay/Chinese/Indian plus other minorities are better than those in most part of Europe and the US. Extremist groups like the skin heads or KKK simply don’t exist, try forming one and you would be hard press to find members. One have to bear in mind that, in Malaysia there is a self imposed segregation in education, namely there are Chinese language, Tamil language national type school, Malay language national school. It is a legacy from the British colonial era where each community fence for itself in education. On top of that there are special quota in civil service and resources allocation. Despite all this one can feel safe going from Chinese neighbourhood to Malay or Indian. However, the trend is that more and more areas are ethnically mixed than years ago. In Malaysia, it is common to see major ethnic groups living on the same street, going to the same school (currently 50,000 ethnic Malay go to Chinese schools), about half of ethnic Chinese go to national Malay school. The KFC and MacDonalds are Halal in Malaysia so ethnic mixing is very common.

    For example, when the first Malaysian idol contest was held, it is assume that either an ethnic Chinese (due to overwhelming number in the Klang Valley area), or a Malay winner would emerged. However, the winner turned out to be an ethnic Indian which is less than 10% of the population. It showed that despite the officially imposed segregation, the young generation is quite open minded. The next general election will be held pretty soon, and I expect to see the ruling coalition (which has been running the country since 1957) who consisted of ethnic base Malay, Chinese, Indian only parties to be severely weakened again. The opposition consist of KeAdilan which is multi-ethnic but Malay dominated; DAP, a spinoff of the PAP of Singapore after both countries split up, which is multi-ethnic but Chinese dominated; lastly there is PAS, a Muslim party. Yes, there are law imposed which favoured a certain group over the others. However, the public of all ethnicities are increasingly seeing the law as unfair and discriminatory. A common Malay folk simply got no chance at any big ticket government contract, which is given to party favourites or their children only (much like in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen etc).

  45. Wukailong
    September 28th, 2011 at 20:11 | #45

    @Cockroach: “swede vs finn”

    Oh really? Care to expound on this one? The war of hatred between these two peoples? And what on earth does it have to do with the euro zone?

    I happen to know that history in depth, but I’d be happy to hear about your understanding of it.

  46. September 29th, 2011 at 06:46 | #46

    @Wukailong
    Yeah, I work for a company that was formed from a merger of a Swedish firm with a Finnish firm, and would also like to here this one.

  47. raventhorn2000
    September 29th, 2011 at 07:12 | #47

    I think this is what Cockroach was talking about.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornedalians

    “Cultural imperialism, in combination with a fear of Russia, led to Swedish attempts to assimilate and Swedify the Finnish-speaking population between 1850 and 1950. Since the 1970s, efforts have been made to reverse some of the effects of the Swedification, notably in education.”

  48. Wukailong
    September 29th, 2011 at 22:13 | #48

    Actually, the Swedish/Finnish conflict is much older than that, mainly because Finland was part of Sweden for around 600 years and there was always a tension between the subjects and their rulers. The Tornedalians are just a small part of that. Not that there is much left of it today, though – all Scandinavian countries have good relations.

    So I’m curious about the hatred between these two peoples that Cockroach talks about. Finns have been ruled by both Swedes and Russians but as far as I know, they don’t have any strong feelings about either of these groups.

  49. September 30th, 2011 at 03:44 | #49

    @Wukailong – My Finnish colleagues make jokes about their Swedish co-workers, but it’s at much the same level as the Englishs/Scots/Welsh/Irish do. No hatred as far as I can see – many Finns work and live in Sweden – isn’t Stockholm the second largish Finnish city in terms of population?

  50. Wukailong
    September 30th, 2011 at 05:27 | #50

    Yeah, I even think Finnish is the second largest language in Sweden except Swedish itself. There are news in the language and it’s not considered strange or something; several of the teachers in elementary school where I grew up were Finnish. Like you said, there are jokes but not any animosity as far as I know.

    To go back to the general discussion, I think all areas have their conflicts and I don’t believe any claims to the effect that there’s a perfect country or region without these issues. They might be contained but they always exist. Maybe it’s just human nature.

    One interesting thing to notice is that the word “Finn” is originally Swedish for “stranger” or “foreigner.” They don’t call themselves that. It’s a bit like some place close to China had been called 异国 and they would be known as Yeego in English. 😀

  51. raventhorn2000
    September 30th, 2011 at 06:29 | #51

    No “hatred” perhaps as of right now.

    But language and cultural differences often brew up conflicts over time.

    Just look at Belgium, which used to be touted as a sort of harmonious mix of different groups of people. Now, Belgium has essentially divided itself into 2 halves over language differences.

    I also wouldn’t called it “hatred” yet.

  52. October 2nd, 2011 at 08:31 | #52

    yinyang, I’m more than a bit surprised to see you recycling a photoshopped Tiexue picture as though it were genuine. As the people over at Sina pointed out:

    “台灣的F16不會有飛行員名字,臂章和飛行服的顏色也不對.
    PS的人還犯了一個錯誤: 母亲的”亲”是简体字,不是繁體字.”

    Here’s a picture of a Taiwanese pilot in the standard flight suit:

    http://service.photo.sina.com.cn/show_mop.php?type=middle&pic_id=7c1d9875gvb1a6au5vx0p&pm=1&v=690

    Yet another example of how certain people’s critical faculties are entirely dropped when it suits them.

  53. October 2nd, 2011 at 11:53 | #53

    @FOARP
    The pic was posted by me. It was indeed a ps. I was not careful. However, here are two former ROCAF pilots who are now a major general and a senior colonel in the PLAAF. One of the flew over in an F-5F in 1981 and an F-5E in 1989. One of them is a Zhuang and the other a Hakka.

    http://www.zhong5.cn/home-space-uid-100000-do-blog-id-75347.html

    yinyang is not an expert on the F-16 and is an honest mistake due to my fault. Your attack on him is below the belt. I bet you couldn’t tell an F-14 from an F-15 or an F/A-18 from an F-16 either.

  54. October 2nd, 2011 at 12:18 | #54

    @Ray
    “Yet another example of how certain people’s critical faculties are entirely dropped when it suits them.”

    This is a good line though but according to you, Jiang Zemin also passed away this year.

  55. October 2nd, 2011 at 13:12 | #55

    @Ray – You mean, according to Hong Kong Television – and I also posted when the story was denied. I’m sure the mistake was honest, though.

  56. October 2nd, 2011 at 16:46 | #56

    I’ve updated the caption to say that the photo is photoshopped.

    FOARP, you’ve been acting like an accuser whore lately.

  57. October 3rd, 2011 at 04:23 | #57

    @YinYang

    You see, it took me a while to work out that mere logical argument based on widely accepted evidence (such as, for example, the obvious fact that using the term “goose-step” to describe the parade-step of the PLA is a perfectly fine usage and does not show bias, as displayed by its usuage by Xinhua) is not enough on this website. Instead, the only time when people on this website will admit that they are wrong is where the evidence is overwhelming and originates from Mainland China.

    I very often come to this website, see something obviously incorrect, illogical, or unsupported by the facts, and start writing a comment only to ask myself: “What’s the point? If I rely on evidence from outside Mainland China, this will only be dismissed as part of an imagined plot to destabilise the country, nor is mere logic enough, since the most incredible distortions are accepted as fact on this site”.

  58. raventhorn2000
    October 3rd, 2011 at 05:46 | #58

    @FOARP

    Oh really, you want to compare the scale of “distortions”?

    Aren’t you making a mole hill into a mountain right about now??

    Yes, “what is your point”, FOARP?

    We are the same as you, but you are better??!! I would call that “distortion”!

  59. October 3rd, 2011 at 11:00 | #59

    @FOARP
    Look, I guess this is a give and take. I can’t speak for everyone on this blog, but many people are here simply because they feel the Western media narratives on ‘China’ are wrong.

    I agree with you to some extent that both Ray and myself took that particular image without enough critical thinking. Because, after all, a Taiwan pilot doing that on his F-16 would likely invite a great deal of controversy. So, we certainly appreciate you pointing this out.

    With regards to your disagreements with posts or comments on this blog, your comments are in full view just as are everyone else’s.

  60. October 3rd, 2011 at 19:05 | #60

Time limit is exhausted. Please reload the CAPTCHA.