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India’s Agni-V missile

So I’ve been reading a lot on the media – and on many Indian blogs – how India’s Agni-V missile is going to reposition the balance of power in Asia, how it is designed to target Beijing and Shanghai. 1  Presumptively, India had notified all members on the security counsel – but China – ahead of the test.

Because there are so much hot air out there, I’d like to point people out to three articles that may be of interest.

In this BBC article, the author discusses that the launching of Agni-V is not really aimed at China, but merely part of its process of create a credible nuclear deterrence – that there is little risk of a arms race between China and India resulting from the Agni-V.

In this global times op-ed, the author noted that China does not treat India as a strategic competitor, but that if India must become one, China hopes it will be a peaceful competitor.

Finally, in this Huffington Post, the author warned that India’s ambition does not appear to be aimed at China only, but all of Europe and America.

Much will become clearer on what sort of threat – if any – India poses to the world in the coming decade.  But as long as China keeps its current course of reform, economic development, and military modernizations, it should be ready for whatever geopolitical or military challenges that arise.

As the global times op-ed duly noted:

It seems India’s path for boosting its military strength has not met too many obstacles. India is still poor and lags behind in infrastructure construction, but its society is highly supportive of developing nuclear power and the West chooses to overlook India’s disregard of nuclear and missile control treaties. The West remains silent on the fact that India’s military spending increased by 17 percent in 2012 and the country has again become the largest weapons importer in the world.

China and India should develop as friendly a relationship as possible. Even if this cannot be achieved, the two should at least tolerate each other and learn to coexist.

Their status as newly emerging countries shows the two should cooperate on the international stage. It would be unwise for China and India to seek a balance of power by developing missiles.

The geopolitics of Asia will become more dependent on the nature of Sino-Indian relations. The peace and stability of the region are crucial to both countries. China and India should both take responsibility for maintaining this peace and stability and be wary of external intervention.

…China hopes India will remain calm, as this would be beneficial to both giants.

Notes:

  1. See, e.g., this WSJ article.
  1. Raphael
    April 20th, 2012 at 15:49 | #1

    That WSJ article was chilling. You could really feel the glee of the author at the prospect of China and India nuking each other to bits and ensuring American hegemony for another century.

    When is Wendi Deng going to pull her side of the bargain and sway her husband’s propaganda mouthpieces away from being so sinophobic?

  2. melektaus
    April 21st, 2012 at 15:55 | #2

    Allen,

    I am much less roseate when it comes to India as you appear to be. I think India posses a much greater threat to not only China but the whole Asian continent than the US does or any other country. There’s no doubt that this latest episode of developing and launching the Agni-V was meant to send a tactical message to Beijing.

    If Beijing reciprocated with a missile defense system, there’s no doubt in my mind that Delhi would take that as a counter tactical message and may escalate into an arms race.

    India still has significant deep-seated hostilities towards China. Much of it stemming from their perceived humiliation of a 62 defeat and a belief that China is continuing to “occupy” its territory and wants to “encircle it.” India views China through the eyes of a threat but China does not view India in the same way (as M. Taylor Fravel has noted, China’s leaders seem to think that India’s economic rise is a good thing for China).

    Both India and China are wrong but in opposite ways. Right now China posses very little threat to India but India *does* pose a military risk to China (for the reasons given above).

    So long as India keeps its paranoid beliefs (both it public and its politicians) that China is “occupying” “their” territory, that China “attacked” them in 62, and that China is “encircling” them today, India will continue to pose that threat. So long as Chinese leaders don’t (or refuse) to see that India is a belligerent nation capable of attacking China unprovoked, it will be blinded by a overly positive image of India. Chinese leaders underestimate how far resentment and those false beliefs goes inside Indian society.

  3. ramesh
    April 21st, 2012 at 20:35 | #3

    Friend,
    I am sorry I do not agree . The Agni v is necessary for India own security. As 1948 Pak snached India land not returned.Where as India returned the won land in different war with pak India policy is very clear.Where as Pak not. As the same time China policy is horribal China believe that what they were in 100 years back those teretory is there. That is why they say Tibet is there part.Taiwan is under threat, inner mangolia captured by china. china is only country having terrotory problem with russia ,india, japan …….. To safegaurd our territory we need such weapon. India was never threat to any nation. Many nation do business with pakistan by showing india threat. It is not true. You put your nation in India & events of Hijack of IC814, December attack on Parliament 2003, 26 november attack on Mumbai does your nation tolerate it? If USA 100% attacked on pakistan, If it could be China/Israel 100% attacked on Pakistan to curb the terrorist.

  4. zack
    April 21st, 2012 at 20:49 | #4

    @melektaus
    you hit the nail on the head, melekataus; it’s no secret that Washington and Moscow secretly and ardently hope that India will be their patsy in stopping the rise of China (and itself) by militarily attacking China, or even having a cold war environment so that they can profit from arms sales to India.

    If it becomes clear that India is going to become a threat to China, then i say that China must do all in its power to make sure India collapses into seperate states and insurgencies. Russia is also another state that must be dealt with.

  5. Navigator..
    April 21st, 2012 at 22:40 | #5

    One would hope, that with a history drenched in blood as it is, the Chinese people would be wise enough to not again walk down the path to death and destruction.
    Instead of lashing out I hope that China is able to get along and finally make peace with its neighbors, and its environment.

  6. zack
    April 22nd, 2012 at 01:07 | #6

    @Navigator..
    One would hope, that with a history drenched in blood as it is, the white man would be wise enough to not again walk down the path to death and destruction.
    Instead of lashing out I hope that white man is able to get along and finally make peace with its neighbors, and its environment.

  7. Navigator..
    April 22nd, 2012 at 01:17 | #7

    Again with the comparisons Zack. Surely you are capable of showing more intelligence than this….

    My comment was one of peace and hope Zack, so sad it falls on deaf ears.

  8. zack
    April 22nd, 2012 at 01:24 | #8

    @Navigator..
    Again with the simplistic faux patronising; yeah, yeah aww why can’t we all sit together and sing kumbaya and look at how morally superior i am for voicing such things; now that that’s out of the way we can get right down to the nitty gritty of being a tool.

    let’s see now, “history drenched in blood”, i’m sorry, how exactly do you propose your comment was one of ‘peace and hope’ when you judge an entire civilisation’s history as being ‘drenched in blood’. I’ll tell you right now that just because you read The Economist, you’re still not The China Expert or even The World Peace Expert, you obviously fantasize yourself to be.

  9. Navigator..
    April 22nd, 2012 at 01:38 | #9

    So much anger Zack. Might I suggest some meditation and breathing exercises to help you become at one with the world, and come to terms with your own existence.

    All this bad qi needs to be expelled from your system, but this blog is not the right place. Lashing out out shadows will bring nothing but further frustration.

  10. raffiaflower
    April 22nd, 2012 at 07:12 | #10

    This is a nationalist missile. It has to do with chest-thumping, not a triumph of self-defense.
    But if it helps to assuage India’s perpetual inferiority complex towards China, it’s not necessary a bad thing.
    An elevated sense of self-confidence and security might help India develop a new maturity in its relationship with China, and give pragmatists a leg-up over the nationalists in dealings between the two countries.
    The pragmatic faction should – hopefully – understand the tru-ism that all nations have only self-interests, not friends.

    So Delhi may as well have informed the Royal Keeper of Cow Sheds in Bhutan/Sikkim/whoever about the upcoming test’; Intelligence sources would have channeled details to China earlier anyways.
    I don’t think China is sanguine about India at all. It needs an India without a chip on its shoulder that will constantly weigh on healthy relations between the two countries.
    A less volatile, more future-looking neighbour is good for China. Couple that with China’s own more confident attitude towards Japan*, there is potential for Asia’s three biggest economies to align interests for common prosperity.
    (*Again, as Zhang Weiwei says:“China overtaking Japan is an important milestone. It has implications for China and the rest of the world.’’)

  11. melektaus
    April 22nd, 2012 at 14:19 | #11

    @zack

    If India collapses, that would multiply the threat to China. From one threat to many threats each may compete with each other for who can get “tougher” on China. So I do not wish for a collapse of India. Moreover, I do not see the same level of belligerence from Russia. Russia seems to be ever more sincere in its friendship with China. It has since given back some disputed territory to China and their media is usually very supportive of a Chinese perspective. Granted, that either pro- or neutral China stance can change in a sudden but right now, Russia seems to be far friendlier than India. Just look at Indian media these last few years to see extreme belligerence to the point of asking for war with China from mainstream media sources.

  12. silentchinese
    April 23rd, 2012 at 10:07 | #12

    the part of not informing china is a really stupid move.
    China, like all other powers, sure knows what’s up already from recon satellite over flights. Agni-V is not some thing that just popped out of blue.

    not informing china, if it were to be true, shows how immature indian politicans are that they think they can rub it in and get away with it .

  13. silentchinese
    April 23rd, 2012 at 10:13 | #13

    The part about “The Chinese respect strength. We are not here to poke each other in the eye, but to continue to engage as equals,” one official said.”

    is really stupid too. India will never posses that kind of strength china has in the near or mid term future. so the part of egagement on equals because china only respect strength is bore out of some fanatsy of some supposed china hand. back in ’62 china was weaker than India in most respect, and it was india that think it was the stronger part so it can dicate the terms. the chinese didn’t bow to the strong back then, why do you think they would only respect the strong today.??? …

    (p.s. I think china generally respect the rational and self respecting kind, no matter their relative material strength)

    also,
    Building alliances to counter china seems like lilliputians trying to tie dow gulliver. silly and stupid.

  14. silentchinese
    April 23rd, 2012 at 10:18 | #14

    melektaus :@zack
    Just look at Indian media these last few years to see extreme belligerence to the point of asking for war with China from mainstream media sources.

    that is certainly true. China has had no major issues with india since the 80s.

    Their own world is a media echo chamber, that self resonates into a high fever pitch of jingoism. only if you step outside and realizes how quiet it is really on the outside.

  15. silentchinese
    April 23rd, 2012 at 10:22 | #15

    Also, Seems that US and Russia both sold guidance hardware to India.

    it is interesting that the much talked about non-proliferation rules are in the trash can once come in contact with geopolitics.

  16. zack
    April 23rd, 2012 at 11:30 | #16

    China really ought to accelerate military engagement with nepal and Bhutan and install anti ballistic missile batteries in both countries, as well as in Myanmar and Sri Lanka.

  17. April 23rd, 2012 at 11:32 | #17

    @zack

    Bhutan doesn’t have any military engagements with anyone as far as I know. It’s a poor buddhist country. It has much better relations with India than with China. China has good relations with Pakistan which does have a large military and is also distrustful of India.

  18. April 23rd, 2012 at 11:49 | #18

    My faith lies in the fact that both countries share very powerful trends together, and those will drive them to align. One of the biggest being their population. The rich developed nations will want to preserve their per-capita consumption and CO2 emissions, whereas China and India will want to close that gap.

    Chomsky replied to me once that he believes the competition for resources in everyone shooting for the level of consumption in developed countries may destroy this planet. Despite his criticism of U.S./NATO foreign policy, he stated that ‘consumption’ problem as the most dire.

    Not saying there is no distrust between India and China. I agree with Melektaus India is extremely paranoid about China. That’s largely due to China’s support for Pakistan and the border issue.

    It’s a tussle between these and other issues. My hope is constructive engagement between the two becomes the most prominent which defines their relationship.

  19. April 23rd, 2012 at 12:48 | #19

    @YinYang

    I see it as a race against time for establishing more business ties with India. The more of these business ties there are, the less the rich and influential would want war with China and the Indian government no doubt will bow their heads to those people’s demands. I fear that there may be conflict before that happens.

  20. zack
    April 23rd, 2012 at 16:31 | #20

    @melektaus
    true, but what if yellow journalism and US lobbying efforts compel the Elites in Delhi to adopt a more confrontational and warlike stance with respect to China? If so, it’s better to err on the side of caution and be prepared for any eventuality; the impression i’m getting from the security establishment/mass media in India is that Indians are willing to fight and die to avenge some sort of false wrong they believe to have been perpetrated by China (hence why historians who dont toe the official line are censored). simply labelling a missile as a ‘China killer’ reflects the sort of attitude Indians have with China: that they wish to kill her.

  21. ramesh
    April 23rd, 2012 at 18:36 | #21

    Hello friend, Agni 5 before test it was informed all nation saraounded to india including china.You can
    refer to Indian news channels, Daily news Pappers. thankyou.

  22. April 24th, 2012 at 14:09 | #22

    @zack

    Of course China ought to be prepared for the worst. The US can also stomp its feet but many Indians are aware that this US lobbying is just an attempt to use them as a buffer against China. It’s the internal Indian nationalist sentiment that I’m more worried about. India has a huge belligerent fascist political party which is the second largest political party in that country. It is literally and proudly fascist. It is the Hindu nationalist party or BJP and they may come to power and put the whole region in grave danger. Even many average non fascist Indians have very antagonistic attitudes towards their neighbors.

  23. April 24th, 2012 at 14:50 | #23

    @melektaus
    And, having external bogeyman can be a uniting force for all the divisions within India.

    Just like in America, cheer-leading in invading a foreign country is just about the only thing that unites the Republicans and the Democrats.

  24. SP
    April 24th, 2012 at 18:40 | #24

    India’s BJP is against “no-first-use” N policy that India currently adopts. That’s about to change once it’s in power and it will be in power, sooner or later.

    Agnis V is an ancient missile with 20% technologies (all the key ones such as entire laser gyroscope guidance system, special high temperature super-hard alloys, warhead re-try know-how for precision, and related special materials, etc.) bought from Russia under dual-use technologies for India civil satellite-launching rockets.

    Due to general IQ and infrastructure, India doesn’t have, and will not have, the advanced technologies from materials science and other fundamental sciences along with corresponding precision machinery industry to properly design, improve, manufacture and properly maintain the following Agni series on the reentry-related issues and miniaturisation of N-warheads, EXCEPT with further massive tech assistance from Russia primarily, and France. For the latter, I suspect, India intends to get nuke warhead-related design & testing facilities inside France as a part of undisclosed precondition of the Rafale deal (a recent news described Indian scientists are currently “touring” nuclear facilities in France…).

    As for the jingoistic hot air of hitting Beijing and Shanghai , the fact is that instead of being measured by metres like American/Russian/Chinese modern missiles are, the CEP of this Agni V is as wide as 600,000km2, which suggests that when targeting at BJ or SH it will have about the equal chance ending up on top of Mongolia, Seoul, or Guan, or Nagasaki, well, hitting it twice!

    With unrestrained support of all the turnkey tech from Russian and French arms industries however, India could get this Agni V operational with relative reliability and accuracy within 5 to 10 years, or within 1-2 years with 2 more tests only like what India intends to do as per the announcement of DRDO – one can have a taste of Indian Standard of Quality Control here, even with nuke gears.

    As one can see, Agni V is in fact merely a very expensive psyche boaster for India’s massive chip on the shoulder and have a realistic value of “zero” – India’s all-time favourite of course. Under normal circumstances, any high IQ strategic mind with noble intentions will conclude that India stands no chance against China economically, geopolitically and militarily ( for it’s empirically proven in the last 5000 years), and Agni V means 0 to India either under “no-first-use” or otherwise. It’s because either way when a first nuke is reached in China, anywhere being a major city or not, the Chinese retaliation would be so overwhelming that literally could wipe India off the map. Thus this Agni V missile series and future Indian weaponries will never be neither a “deterrence” nor “MAD” against China as Jingoistic Indian media and rattling Western media proclaimed. Most Chinese, even the CPC mouthpiece Globaltimes, believe so.

    However, China and most Chinese people are basing above conclusion and thus their natural response on some DEADLY presumptions:

    a) assuming IQ of India (masses AND elites) are the same as the Chinese, thus think at the similar level in general and have a long-term strategic vision;

    b) assuming India has noble intentions, say sort of a la Confucius;

    c) assuming Indian political elites are highly experienced, skilled and intelligent players of the Big League calibre;

    d) assuming with no powerful third-party interferences in terms of turnkey tech supply and/or strategic rattling, etc.

    All of them are false!

    Furthermore, not even a token condemnation response of the US govt, the liberal one (!), told all one needs to know. Just imagine how much worse it could become for China when hardliner neocons in power later this year?

    Melektaus and Zack are thoroughly on the ball here. Eventually deluted Chinese rulers need to face the cruel reality that the world it re-awakens up to is not the one full of Confucius rosy ideal of harmony but “land of ganhdi” hand-in-hand with a big dirty bomb knocking your front door… On India, the forward pawn of the US, all major factors taken into account China eventually will face no other choices but ONE, THE golden one, THE most civic one and THE most muturally beneficial one actually that per others and I argued long ago under melektaus’s ’62 War piece: Balkanisation, I mean harmonisation, of the region. What chance neocons would stand after this, huh?

  25. April 26th, 2012 at 00:19 | #25

    @SP
    You have contributed many salient points, but this statement sticks out:
    “Due to general IQ and infrastructure, India doesn’t have, and will not have,…”
    Talking about the IQ of specific races is an iffy subject, even with substantial scientific evidence. Moreover, “will not have” is too definite a prediction for anyone to make. What I mean to say is that your argument would be relevant even without the use of a such a rude and demeaning statement. You could make a point about the general state of education in India instead.

    If we want people to take this blog seriously, we have to be mindful of our conduct and most importantly, stay disciplined.

  26. April 26th, 2012 at 04:29 | #26

    @Lao Da.
    “Han chauvinism knows no bounds it seems.”
    Well I have no proof that it “knows no bounds”. (Feel free to do so if you have. If you haven’t, then you’re trolling.) But I know that there are chauvinists in every society, and it is the job of moderates to show them they’re wrong. The offending remark has already been picked out and criticised, what remains is the topic at hand and a stop to thread derailment.

  27. SP
    April 26th, 2012 at 08:44 | #27

    Sigmar,

    Thank you!

    Yet I disagree with your view.

    The diversity of intelligence levels, as well as other physical and psychological traits, of human races, has been well researched and documented from ancient writings to modern scientific research across disciplines for as long as different races have existed.

    Telling thing as they are, not what PC brigade permit what you can say and can not say, is exactly the Chinese Motto of this blog “Explore, Harmony”, isn’t it?

    Knowing that it’s true during exploring yet claiming what is not seems neither Confucius nor democratic, anti-science aside. If this blog is about telling PC tales, what’s the difference from millions out there in the mainstream that you criticise?

    As for ” India doesn’t have, and will not have”, it’s not an overstatement IMO. It is a current FACT to start with, and it will remain so during our lifetimes and beyond. One can count with one hand on how many countries are capable accomplishing such things independently, since it’s not about having several highly intelligent and educated individuals whom India does have, but about having countless such individuals on top of ALL sectors of world-leading materials science, physics, chemistry, engineering, and the corresponding advanced industrial value chains. The width and depth of this kind of human resources are beyond the reach of India.

    —————

    I’d like to take the opportunity to extend a line on those “DEADLY presumptions” of the Chinese people that I talked about:

    e) assuming that trade is the secret weapon that be all and ends all, in this case increasing bilateral trade can solve all the headaches with India.

    Patently false as well, for trade is not always, or has to be as if in god’s name, win-win as Adams Smith and alike presumed (again, simplistically presuming that people on both sides of the trade are equally gifted and skilled albeit in different fields), whereas in reality trade is sometimes a simple zero-sum game more purely due to human diversity. Plus, if trade were so almighty what were the Opium Wars all about?

    Now “Harmony” is the current buzzword. Yet it doesn’t mean, and is not achieved by, softy softy folk dances, but balance, the balance between the soft and the hard, the black and the white, the good and the evil…the implication of which is that the current Chinese foreign policy contracts its means (aka soft talking only) to its principle (aka peaceful rising), however noble its intention is. India, Vietnam, Phillipines for example are obviously capitalising on that.

  28. April 26th, 2012 at 15:02 | #28

    @SP
    I would say that a people’s IQ level corresponds directly to the standard of education they are exposed to. Currently, a large number of youths in India do not have access to proper education, and thus they may lack the faculty of critical thinking. You may be surprised at the number of Indians who are clear-minded when it comes to foreign affairs regarding China. They are not jingoistic at all. Maitreya Bhakal, a frequent contributor to this blog, is one such Indian. You do people such as himself a disservice when you claim that India will not be able to “accomplish… things independently” during and beyond our lifetimes. This is a long time and nobody can say for certain what will happen in this span. What if India actually succeeds in accomplishing just that? It is not wise to plan foreign/defence policy based on a belief that other countries lack certain capabilities. All eventualities should be looked into. In any case, we know that India has technical assistance from other countries. We have to treat India as having the highlighted technological resources. Don’t forget, it was because of China’s complacency that she fell 200 years ago.

    However, I am aware that educated Indians may be swayed by more jingoistic, nationalistic or militaristic propaganda, especially with regards to China, and I agree with you that China should develop a defence policy based on this consideration. But this is exactly what China is doing. She is speaking softly by emphasising on harmony and her peaceful rise, and as her economy grows, she is developing her big stick, which is to say her defence capabilities.

  29. jxie
    April 26th, 2012 at 17:05 | #29

    @SP

    It’s hard to make a statement like “India doesn’t have, and will not have”, and be able to get away with it. You are predicting something well in the future that nobody can see. When the Eight-Nation Alliance was on their way to sack Beijing, Wilhelm II said “for a thousand years no Chinaman will dare to squint at a German.” He probably could see as far as the time when 朱自清 wrote his piece 白种人——上帝的骄子 that left some strong impression on me as a young boy… but a thousand years? That’s a very long time.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think the prevailing PC of emphasizing environment over heredity is all crap, and by extension the racial quota / AA type of policies are destroying societies from within. You are, IMHO, just going so far to the other side. A question to you, if Chinese are so smart (as a large group with the highest IQ), why the heck China fell behind and got our ass handed to us after the East and the West really met (the small prior scrimmages didn’t really count)? Not until they started measuring IQ among Chinese, the belief was that Chinese were intelligently and culturally inferior.

    An interesting theory on why Ashkenazi Jews’ average IQ is about 15 points higher than the Northwestern Europeans is that throughout the Middle Age and beyond, only the smartest boys were chosen to fulfill religious duties. Rabbis were allowed to bear children but priests weren’t. Overtime it became a self-inflicting policy of sterilizing your smartest people. Zhejiang is probably the province with the highest IQ (Shanghai may be higher but it’s a city) in China. A few recent studies have shown the average IQ of the Zhejiang children was at 115+, and the recent unannounced PISA test result could corroborate that. My theory is that the Zhejiang people there genetically are the closest to the Tang/Song Chinese, due to a host of historical reasons.

    The other hard question is, why Japan stopped advancing vis-a-vis the US after 1990? Isn’t Japan’ average IQ about 5-8 points higher?

  30. zack
    April 27th, 2012 at 01:52 | #30

    naturally the indians would make a big deal out of their ‘China killer’ missile; just today, S&P downgraded India’s economy to ‘negative’ rather than ‘stable’. It’s clear that the incompetance and infighting in Delhi between both major parties has not improved india’s position vis-a-vis the GFC and now they require strong nationalistic sentiment so as to shore up their own positions and prevent further unrest-already, trade unions are making a massive impact with their strikes.

  31. Raj
    April 27th, 2012 at 03:23 | #31

    Why “naturally”? What evidence do you have that nature plays any part in this?

    We need evidence otherwise its just spam!

  32. SP
    April 27th, 2012 at 09:43 | #32

    Sigmar,

    A typical angle involved to counter your IQ view is the issue of cause/effect: low level of education/nutrition etc. at this development stage such as India is the cause of low IQ or the effect of it? Since this is not a HBD entry, would you agree that we just leave this nature vs nurture issue for another time?

    My previous point was: India is not capable of developing such high tech *on its own*, and she cannot and will not achieve such *independently* for the forseeable future. Nothing is wrong with that. It’s a fact and will remain as a fact during our lifetimes.

    That said, my statement was not about on an individual level, but in general population sense. Of course it might “hurt some feelings” and doesn’t sound nice. Yet if one wants sounds-nice, I’d suggest to read People’s Daily, go to summer camp or book a med cruise or something.

    Bearing that in mind, China should be clear that IF India somehow gets it , it MUST BE obtained under “dual-use technology transfers” from third party sources of Russian, French, or Anglo-Saxon origins (Russia has supplied all the key tech, albeit relatively primitive ones compared with what UNSC 5 currently have, of Agni V and the US supplied critical guidance system for Agni II).

  33. SP
    April 27th, 2012 at 09:45 | #33

    jxie ,
    Whereas it’s hard to predict small numbers of individual random cases from time to time, it’s predictable whenever the Law of Large Numbers is involved. The more a person frequents a Casino, or the more visitors a Casino has at one time, the more predictable that the house will win. Whenever a nation is involved to follow the logic, on an arrange of industries and their value chains so advanced and widespread such as space-faring rockets/ nuclear & aerodynamics physics/advanced chemistry/extreme engineering as in this case, the numbers (in terms of individuals and activities) involved have reached such a large degree that the long term result is perfectly predictable as the Law of Large Numbers dictates, are you with me?

    As for your question why China lagged before when the East met the West, the answers are multiple which deserve an entirely different entry. One thing is certain that there’re other make-or-break factors involved whenever 2 large populations with similar IQ going head to head. One of such factors, in my opinion, is the social positions and incentives of the corresponding cognitive elites at a time.

    It’s good that you’re also a HBDer and it seems that you read Steve Sailer ( I also contributed many comments there including some under the PISA scores). As I said, when two high IQ populations are compared, such as 1900’s JPN Vs. the US, many other otherwise minor factors (became critical only after discounting the similar IQ – the dominant factor) will be involved and there isn’t a clearcut.

  34. colin
    April 27th, 2012 at 10:20 | #34

    I also question that Indians have low IQ’s. Many of them I come across seem every intelligent. Also, I think for a society to advance, I think you don’t necessarily need a higher average IQ, just enough of the key people with necessary IQ threshold to mobilize the rest of society. This is the same idea why I say China will become innovative and inventive despite the problems its educational system and its other hurdles. It only needs a few key people like Jack Ma or Robin Lee to inspire, organize and lead whole swathes of society.

  35. colin
    April 27th, 2012 at 10:56 | #35

    @colin

    I think the very thing that may hold India back is its so called democracy. Democracy and free markets have become such ingrained doctrine in the western world and india that the flaws are ignored and overlooked. That is even assuming that the democracies in the west actually work as intended, a highly questionable statement.

  36. zack
    April 27th, 2012 at 15:36 | #36

    @Raj
    i say ‘naturally’ because tbh, the Indian media and punditry and analysts have made no secret of their desire to make war on China, nor have the majority of them been anything but belligerent and confrontational vis-a-vis China. Now, granted, there are exceptions, but they are much too few.

    It is because of this environment of consistent political and mass media fearmongering against the Chinese, especially the sense of humiliation the Indians feel about the border war (and have whitewashed history accordingly to paint the Chinese as aggressors and instigators), along with the fact that many educated Indians are painfully aware that India cannot match China on either an industrial, scientific or military level, yet so many Indians wish to compare themselves to the Chinese. The result is an unfortunate sense of insecurity and inferiority, such that some in the Indian Establishment hope that by ‘bringing down China’, they can erase their own sense of inferiority. It is therefore natural from a human nature sense, that the Indians would make such a big deal out of this missile, having dubbed it a ‘China killer’.

    Strange how the Communist Chinese have never labelled their missiles ‘India killers’, and with respect to the DF-21, it’s only been the alarmist American strategic sector that’s labbeled the missile as a ‘carrier killer’.

    i grow tired of incessant Indian nationalism and their oft stated desires to kill their asian brothers for the sake of service to the white man (a pat on the head for being subservient to other whiter democracies).

  37. colin
    April 28th, 2012 at 02:27 | #37

    @zack
    “the Indian media and punditry and analysts have made no secret of their desire to make war on China”

    Yes, free press is hardly truthful press. Who thinks the indian press doesn’t have a huge agenda and vendetta when talking about China, especially against the backdrop of the false history that has been perpetuated with the 1962 war.

    Look at what a so called “free” press did in Thailand. A single individual in control of large media outlets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sondhi_Limthongkul) spread lies and fomented dissent that eventually led to the coup and downfall of Thaksin Shinawatra, who, while probably no angel, was a very capable and legitimate governor who made much progress for Thailand and the Thai. What follows is almost a decade of political strife and military involvement in politics, with crisis after crisis.

  38. Sigmar
    April 28th, 2012 at 07:44 | #38

    @SP
    Another factor to take into consideration when looking at India’s lack of educational infrastructure is the centuries of misgovernance by the British Empire.

  39. SP
    April 28th, 2012 at 12:03 | #39

    Sigmar,

    Hmmm…Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong and Canada’s lack of educational infrastructure must be also due to the centuries of mis-governance by the British Empire, what say you?

    Prior to the evil British Empire, “India” didn’t exist but a land of numerous kingdoms and tribes Educational infrastructure back then? The bared food locals would have looked at you martians in a sheer shock while eating with their bare hands (soup included), asking you that what was “education” and how was “infrastructure” spelt.

    Thanks to the evil British Empire, India as a modern entity came into being.

    Immediately after the evil British rule, India had arguablelly the best modern educational infrastructure in 1947, the eve of its independence.

    That included :

    * an evilly large number of universities that could chunk out a vast # of graduates with modern curricula that covered solid sciences of kinds not Hindustan snake charmer manuals for god’s sake (well, perhaps both…),

    *evilly independent media and institutions,

    *evil British Common Law,

    *entire evil layers of social/political/economic elites who could speak fluently English – the Langue Franca of the world commerce and the only life safer which differentiates today’s India from a medieval pit – namely English-speaking “call centres” a.k.a. “world-leading IT Software” Industry ( oke, at least they don’t categorise big mouths as hardware, that’s a progress! ), and were educated to modern standard either in the evil Britain itself by the evil British or the British colonial institutions inside India…

    etc. etc…

    that otherwise wouldn’t exist.

    What else you could put forward to explain the fact India’s lack of educational infrastructure, for that matter its lack of almost everything even outdoor squat toilet o a covered sewage, today? Genghis Khan from 500 years ago?

    Or the Big Foot from 10,000 B.C.?

  40. SP
    April 28th, 2012 at 12:26 | #40

    ( correction above: …bare footed locals…)

  41. LOLZ
    April 28th, 2012 at 23:18 | #41

    Only the China-bashers are happy with the prospect of China going on war with India, or China going on war with anyone for that matter. The thought of two 3rd world nations putting money into military rather than its people is rather distressing. Other than the military and defense industry, everyone else has little to gain from massive military buildups.

  42. zack
    April 29th, 2012 at 06:20 | #42

    @SP
    the philipines is the perfect example of what happens when the government doesnt put money into the peoples’ needs, but rather in wasteful military spending and corruption. Naturally the West wants and expects nothing else from Asians, and it’s little wonder that the Phillipines is America’s favourite

  43. jxie
    April 30th, 2012 at 10:00 | #43

    @SP

    Well didn’t real Steve Sailer’s blog at all, but since you mentioned it, I did check it out… A few points would like to make on this topic:

    * The prevailing PC notions in the West were born out of its own history. In a way, it’s a set of lies to cover another set of lies.

    * The racial quota / AA polices are extremely harmful to a society. A major reason why in Qing China was severely weakened from within was its own AA policy favoring Manchus and setting up a glass ceiling to the Han majority.

    * IQ test is relatively new so there isn’t a whole lot of historical data beyond a century. IQ 100 is the mean score in the Western society, but is today’s 100 the same as say 1920? In other words, assuming IQ is a reasonably good tool to measure one’s intelligence, are we getting smarter overall? I tend to think yes, given the improving early childhood medical care and nutrition. If that’s the case, a relatively “stupider” group today, should easily achieve something that a relatively “smarter” group achieved a few decades ago, right?

    * There is so much that we don’t yet know. The debate of nurture vs nature on human height is far less controversial. A few factoids:

    – Today the average young men’s (urban & rural) height in China is about 1.70m, which is actually higher than any Northwestern European nations in 1900. Well today the average young men in Netherlands is 1.84m.

    – In the WW2, while precise data is hard to come by but based on many personal accounts, the average Chinese soldiers were quite a bit taller than the average Japanese soldiers. However, today average Japanese men are slightly taller than average Chinese men.

    – They unearthed a lot of skeletons (close to 1000) from Qin era tombs in Sichuan. The average length of the male skeletons was about 1.70m, which indicates when alive they were about mid-1.70m. In the same era, Roman men’s average height was 1.68m. and the tallest sub-group in Europe was Dutch, then at 1.75m. Judged by the facial features of the Qin terracotta soldiers, you would think at least genetically modern-day Chinese should have pretty strong linkage back to Qin Chinese.

    Qin was some 2000 years ago. In between, there were wars, diseases, civilizational rising and falling cycles, and also climate changes. A few more millennia earlier, there was a splendid culture in Egypt; and at one point, today’s Sahara desert was once a tropical rainforest. A small earth’s axial tilt changed all that. At one point, the yellow-river basin was even full of forest and natural wonders… At a longer time-scale, people actually can get taller/shorter, smarter/stupider due to the environmental factors.

  44. SP
    May 1st, 2012 at 13:12 | #44

    jxie,

    A quickie to address some issues in your arguments:

    A. So the Chinese average height is similar to what was 2000 years ago? Nonetheless, your analogy from some specific physical characteristics to one’s intelligence requires a leap of faith. For the latter it takes 1000s of years of evolution, yet for the former e.g. muscles you need 2 months with proper diet and a good trainer.

    B. “…I tend to think yes, given the improving early childhood medical care and nutrition. If that’s the case, a relatively “stupider” group today, should easily achieve something that a relatively “smarter” group achieved a few decades ago, right?”

    —Errr…you’re…right, when [relatively “stupider” group today] touch down on Moon *independently* any time prior to 3012 A.D.?

    See, one important revelation of IQ is NOT, or beyond, its absolute value(which could be affected slightly by some tiny issues), but relative.

    E.g. Usain Bolt’s100m sprint was about 9.3s compared to 11.1s – my all time best, both measured by a Rolex. What does it tell you if Usain’ss 100m turns out to be 18s compared to my 22s, both measured by say a rather primitive sundial (IQ test of 1950s ), or being 11.15s and 13.50s respectively measured by a 2rd hand “mechanic” watch made/recycled by an uneducated fishman from Fiji (say IQ test of today) ?

  45. jxie
    May 1st, 2012 at 18:38 | #45

    @SP

    Human height is genetically quite sticky between generations. Actually the height table roughly looks this way:

    Country, 200-350 B.C. || 1900 (20-25, mean) || modern-day (youth)
    China, 1.75m || N/A || 1.70m
    Italy, 1.68m || 1.64m || 1.76m
    Netherlands, 1.75m || 1.68m || 1.84m

    You can draw a lot of conclusion from this…

    Obviously if both you and Bolt have children. The odds are strongly in favor of his running faster than yours. The prevailing PC belief is that the odds are even, which obviously is bunk. BTW, congrats to your 11.1s time.

    However, at a longer time-scale, things are different. When today’s Sahara desert once was a rainforest, it fed a large population and fostered a vibrant civilization, while comparatively speaking Europe was closer to the stone age than a civilization. There are a lot of theories out there that the ancient Egyptians had moved out gradually. One wacky theory is that ancient Chinese descended from them. Chances are though Egyptians then were closest linked to today’s Egyptians genetically. Well according to the ‘2rd hand “mechanic” watch made/recycled by an uneducated fishman from Fiji’, average Egyptians’ IQ is low 80s. You can almost feel in millennia, air had got drier, food had got scarcer, and gradually people had got dumber…

  46. Indian
    May 3rd, 2012 at 12:38 | #46

    I don’t know why you chinese are so childlike when it comes to politics/war. You become the literal labour of the west and wonder why they don’t love you–they lose your money and hold the debt they owe you hostage while blackmailing you out of more and your government blames ‘corrupt chinese officials”.
    IQ Tests which they develop to make sure their black/hispanic populations dont enter proffessional fields in large numbers are taken as god’s command and actually manages to put you into the opium dreams of superiority that they require to induce ”çhinese reality”.
    India has had the ability to strike all of china for quite a while as suprising as it is to some of you–the reason for the public demonstration is to do with the coming shift in the euro, not that you ”high IQ folks’ will have a clue as to what I am refferring to.
    And FYI, the reason Indian media keeps Bollywooding china as a scapegoat for all their arms buildup is for the exact reasons western peoples ignore indian arms buildup–EVeryone wants China taken down a notch. Gee, I wonder if Indian strategists would use such global popular sentiments for their own use?
    And this fantasy hope you guys have of India only being united by English–I think you chinese forget just how much we understand you and your race of Nagas, do you think you brecame buddhist by accident? Or that suddenly you wanted to build buildings in an indian style? Or that for most of your history you were following Indian grammer laws because you didn’t have any resulting in most chinese speaking today with an Indian accent–not that you high Iq people would know anything about that.

  47. colin
    May 3rd, 2012 at 13:22 | #47

    @Indian

    Most chinese hope for a more constructive understanding and relations between the two counties that should write the next century’s narrative (*).

    Who’s fault is it when the Indians call their missile “china killer”? Who’s childish again?

    (*) but not if the established western status quo would have anything to do with it.

  48. jxie
    May 4th, 2012 at 07:14 | #48

    @Indian

    The IQ topic is the baby of SP. Maybe I am of a race of Nagas who can’t understand the real truth. Would you mind elaborating this part? The rest of what you said is maybe debatable, but at least I know where you are coming from. This part is just strange to me…

    Or that for most of your history you were following Indian grammer laws because you didn’t have any resulting in most chinese speaking today with an Indian accent.

  49. zack
    May 4th, 2012 at 12:52 | #49

    @jxie
    indian inferiority complex; i wouldn’t be surprised if there are elements in India who actually believe-as some koreans believe- that everything worthwhile from other countries, originated from their own country, in this case, “Indian” believes that India is the source of Chinese language.
    apparently, he believes the class of languages defined as ‘sino tibetan languages’ follows indian grammar LOL

  50. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 06:14 | #50

    @zack

    zack :
    @jxie
    indian inferiority complex; i wouldn’t be surprised if there are elements in India who actually believe-as some koreans believe- that everything worthwhile from other countries, originated from their own country, in this case, “Indian” believes that India is the source of Chinese language.
    apparently, he believes the class of languages defined as ‘sino tibetan languages’ follows indian grammar LOL

    Inferiority complex this, inferiority complex that–very familiar with pop psychology are you? Read my post, but maybe you cant read? I wonder if it stems from a childhood of having a weak parent and wanting reality to conform in neat little winnable universes for yourself and your hopeful future dreams.

  51. SP
    May 5th, 2012 at 06:24 | #51

    {I don’t know why you chinese are so childlike when it comes to politics/war. You become the literal labour of the west and wonder why they don’t love you–they lose your money and hold the debt they owe you hostage while blackmailing you out of more and your government blames ‘corrupt chinese officials”.}

    Perhaps the IQ has contributed the bulk of what you don’t know that is quite obvious for the rest?

    {IQ Tests which they develop to make sure their black/hispanic populations dont enter proffessional fields in large numbers are taken as god’s command and actually manages to put you into the opium dreams of superiority that they require to induce ”çhinese reality”.}

    Blank/Hispanic? You forgot Indians.

    And don’t insult either the (American) Blacks or the Hispanics who have an average IQ of mid 80s and high 80s respectively due to a significant White admixture, notablely higher than Indian average. Indians in USA, recent immigrants of a self-selected bunch by and large representing the crème of Indian society, the best of the best really, have significantly higher IQ than that of worldwide Indians.

    The most advanced cities in India such as New Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore however, seas of mass poverty dotted by a handful of `upper caste` islands, are at the same per capita level of Sub Sahara Africa and won’t reach the general prosperity level of the major Hispanic cities of Central & South America with another 200 years, mind you.

    {India has had the ability to strike all of china for quite a while as suprising as it is to some of you–the reason for the public demonstration is to do with the coming shift in the euro, not that you ”high IQ folks’ will have a clue as to what I am refferring to. }¨

    It´s like a 3-yr-old kid with a 1970´s watergun (aka Russia-enabled Agni V) claiming being capable of striking every parts of his neighbourhood…dunno which is more laughable, the museum piece of Agni V, or the primitive IQ it presents…

    {And FYI, the reason Indian media keeps Bollywooding china as a scapegoat for all their arms buildup is for the exact reasons western peoples ignore indian arms buildup–EVeryone wants China taken down a notch. Gee, I wonder if Indian strategists would use such global popular sentiments for their own use? }

    Hint Hint: no wonder then, if you know how to calculate the average IQ of Indian `strategists` (for want of a better word since `Indians` & `Strategists` in one breath sounds hilarious to me) based on 81.

    {And this fantasy hope you guys have of India only being united by English–I think you chinese forget just how much we understand you and your race of Nagas, do you think you brecame buddhist by accident? Or that suddenly you wanted to build buildings in an indian style? Or that for most of your history you were following Indian grammer laws because you didn’t have any resulting in most chinese speaking today with an Indian accent–not that you high Iq people would know anything about that }

    — started off with an outright lie and ended with overwhelming delusions and more lies – even without looking at your moniker, we knew that you are a signature Indian. Say IQ 81 does sound mind-blowing, eh?

  52. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 06:35 | #52

    @SP

    SP :
    {I don’t know why you chinese are so childlike when it comes to politics/war. You become the literal labour of the west and wonder why they don’t love you–they lose your money and hold the debt they owe you hostage while blackmailing you out of more and your government blames ‘corrupt chinese officials”.}
    Perhaps the IQ contribute the bulk of what you don’t know that is quite obvious for the rest…
    {IQ Tests which they develop to make sure their black/hispanic populations dont enter proffessional fields in large numbers are taken as god’s command and actually manages to put you into the opium dreams of superiority that they require to induce ”çhinese reality”.}
    Blank/Hispanic? You forgot Indians.
    And don’t insult either the (American) Blacks or the Hispanics who have an average IQ of mid 80s and high 80s respectively due to a significant White admixture, notablely higher than Indian average. Indians in USA, recent immigrants of a self-selected bunch by and large representing the crème of Indian society, the best of the best really, have significantly higher IQ than that of worldwide Indians.
    The most advanced cities in India such as New Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore however, seas of mass poverty dotted by a handful of `upper caste` islands, are at the same per capita level of Sub Sahara Africa and won’t reach the general prosperity level of the major Hispanic cities of Central & South America with another 200 years, mind you.
    {India has had the ability to strike all of china for quite a while as suprising as it is to some of you–the reason for the public demonstration is to do with the coming shift in the euro, not that you ”high IQ folks’ will have a clue as to what I am refferring to. }¨
    It´s like a 3-yr-old kid with a 1970´s watergun (aka Russia-enabled Agni V) claiming being capable of striking every parts of his neighbourhood…dunno which is more laughable, the museum piece of Agni V, or the primitive IQ it presents…
    {And FYI, the reason Indian media keeps Bollywooding china as a scapegoat for all their arms buildup is for the exact reasons western peoples ignore indian arms buildup–EVeryone wants China taken down a notch. Gee, I wonder if Indian strategists would use such global popular sentiments for their own use? }
    Hint Hint: no wonder then, if you know how to calculate the average IQ of Indian `strategists` (for want of a better word since `Indians` & `Strategists` in one breath sounds hilarious to me) based on 81.
    {And this fantasy hope you guys have of India only being united by English–I think you chinese forget just how much we understand you and your race of Nagas, do you think you brecame buddhist by accident? Or that suddenly you wanted to build buildings in an indian style? Or that for most of your history you were following Indian grammer laws because you didn’t have any resulting in most chinese speaking today with an Indian accent–not that you high Iq people would know anything about that }
    – started off with an outright lie and ended with overwhelming delusions and more lies – even without looking at your moniker, we knew that you are a signature Indian. Say IQ 81 does sound mind-blowing, eh?

    Lol. Cool story bro–maybe your ‘high IQ’ should not get so easily offended? By the By whats someone of your ‘high IQ’ need to practice the art of propaganda for? Does reality with all its complexity terrify you still? Believe me Naga, it didn’t help your ancestors, its not going to help you.

  53. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 06:51 | #53

    @jxie

    jxie :
    @Indian
    The IQ topic is the baby of SP. Maybe I am of a race of Nagas who can’t understand the real truth. Would you mind elaborating this part? The rest of what you said is maybe debatable, but at least I know where you are coming from. This part is just strange to me…

    Or that for most of your history you were following Indian grammer laws because you didn’t have any resulting in most chinese speaking today with an Indian accent.

    I actually replied to you but for whatever reason its–gone. Internet mystery N0.34? I’ll be brief, In Indian cosmology, all east asians are born from Nagas–Dragons. If you observe the Chinese habit of portraying the Long and the fenghuang fighting over a widom pearl–that is a more toned down version of what happened in history–look up Garuda.

    As for the Grammer part, Chinese didn’t have a set of rules for Grammar, they were encouraged by Indian Monks to use Indian ones–the result today is that unkown to the majority of chinese, you are speaking with an Indian accent. Something not without forsight as it makes it easier for indians to sound like locals. Indian Buddhist Monks were a spy system used extensively by the Mauryan Empire.

    But what do I know? Lol at the Hi IQ though, seriously?

  54. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 07:17 | #54

    colin :
    @Indian
    Most chinese hope for a more constructive understanding and relations between the two counties that should write the next century’s narrative (*).
    Who’s fault is it when the Indians call their missile “china killer”? Who’s childish again?
    (*) but not if the established western status quo would have anything to do with it.

    Listen Brother, ghosts expect us to fight–why would you wish us not to use their chi against them? Look at the issue closely, you will see the underlying contempt most of us hold in deploying a strategy that uses such a blatant cartoonish stereotype. Look at facts not propaganda, chinese and Indian visible trade is very high, black trade is higher. Do you think these things take place without knowledge and assistance of both governments?

    Doesn’t matter what, Indians love Chinese people, you would be surprised in what ideal we hold you–but ghosts have managed to blackmail your energy grids–what do you want us to do? protest publicly that it is wrong? Join your efforts in achieving some sort of fictional harmony? Ghosts will not become good because you are. They are not going to acknowledge that ‘now’ you are civilized as they view it and open their arms in welcome–they will go to war.

  55. jxie
    May 5th, 2012 at 07:58 | #55

    @Indian

    Indian cosmology? You probably meant Indian astrology? Astrology is an area that I know next to nothing about, and want to remain that way.

    As for the Grammer part, Chinese didn’t have a set of rules for Grammar, they were encouraged by Indian Monks to use Indian ones–the result today is that unkown to the majority of chinese, you are speaking with an Indian accent.

    Methinks this is an unsubstantiated myth among those who actually don’t understand Chinese, the language. It’s the first time I heard about it, BTW.

    There are 2 problems. A minor one is that even if Chinese didn’t have grammatical rules and had to learn them from Indians when Buddhism arrived China, which started in about the 5th or the 6th century, how exactly you went from the grammatical side of it, to the tonal side of it (speaking with an Indian accent)?

    Well, I know Chinese, including massive volume of ancient texts way before the 5th century. I can assure you, there were grammars long ago, and they were quite similar to the formal records up until a bit over a century ago. Were they any influence of the Buddhism texts being translated to Chinese, on the Chinese literary? Quite possibly yes. But it’s far from what you heard.

  56. SP
    May 5th, 2012 at 08:07 | #56

    @Indian

    Indian, I am not your “bro”. If you are looking for one, I suggest you search closely inside some Australian reserves.

    Some Genetics abc:

    This is because you modern day “Indians” are mostly σ-1 people, a cross between two archaic species. Your closest living genetic bros are without a shred of doubt Australian aboriginals (with the lowest recorded average IQ of 65 ), who are the direct descendents of σ-1.

    The genetic map of you modern day “Indians” is: Archaic Homo Sapiens from Africa + pre-historic Homo Erectus of South Asia —> the σ-1 (the base population of modern day “Indians/India”) —> the Australian aboriginals.

    So genetically you Indians are basically Australoids, with some admixture of several Middle Eastern Caucasoid tribes. That explains why you skulls, for instance, have some Caucasoid characteristics but your average IQ is close to that of Australian aboriginals – Australoids – the friggin 4th major race that PC mainstream media ignores!!!

    On the contrary, the Chinese are at the OTHER END of the evolutionary line: the Chinese are mostly M-1 people(the core of Mongoloid race) + assimilation of minority σ-3 people from South China who originally came from Southeast Asia.

    “bro” who? The genetic differences between the Chinese and the Indians are even GREATER than that of the White Europeans and the African Blacks!

    BTW, the large increase from IQ 60s of original σ-1 mass of “India” to India’s current 81 was mainly due to 2 pre-historical large migrations and assimilations of the Dravidians and Aryans into the Sub Continent, modern era’s invasions/ infusions of the Turks,Arabs and Mongols aside.

    The Dravidians were a dark-skinned Caucasoid tribe from the Middle East who conquered the σ-1 mass and created Indus Valley Civilisation (inside modern day Pakistan).

    The Aryans (not Hitler’s propagandistic “blonde Aryans”) were dark hair fair-skinned Middle Eastern Caucasoid from modern day Afghanistan and Iran.

    Both these 2 groups had average IQ of at least high 80s at a time.

  57. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 08:16 | #57

    You are wrong, most of the linguistic professors in Beijing also concur–you should research the topic if you are interested–while the Chinese had many classes of literature, they did not unfortunately have a universal system of Grammar–Indian monks encouraged them to use Indian grammar laws to read and interpret their own ancient texts, which they did–they wrote systematic books on it. When a more formalized system of schooling was introduced in china the rules of Indian Grammar to read ancient texts resulted in–yes Chinese having an Indian accent today. You don’t sound like your ancestors did because you learnt to sound out those old texts in an Indian manner.

    There is an elaborate sutra from chanakya explaining this strategy and its intent–look at the end of the day Indians are much more familiar with you Chinese and east asians in general than you are perhaps aware of. Look at it this way, according to cartoons like SP you have very high IQ’s–can you envision the isolation and social systems that would occur when large groups of people who need to be validated are living with each other? It has its own inertia and believe me it is very far from being intelligent or reasonable.

  58. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 08:33 | #58

    @SP

    SP :
    @Indian
    Indian, I am not your “bro”. If you are looking for one, I suggest you search closely inside some Australian reserves.
    Some Genetics abc:
    This is because you modern day “Indians” are mostly σ-1 people, a cross between two archaic people. Your closest living genetical bros are without a shred of doubt Australian aboriginals (with the lowest recorded average IQ of 65 ), who are the direct descendents of σ-1.
    The genetic map of you modern day “Indians” is: Archaic Homo Sapiens from Africa + pre-historic Homo Erectus of South Asia —> the σ-1 (the base population of modern day “Indians/India”) —> the Australian aboriginals.
    So genetically you Indians are basically Australoids, with some admixture of several Middle Eastern Caucasoid tribes. That explains why you skulls for instance have some Caucasoid characteristics but your average IQ is close to that of Australoids – the friggin 4th major race that PC mainstream media ignores!!!
    On the contrary, the Chinese are at the OTHER END of the evolutionary line: the Chinese are mostly M-1 people(the core of Mongoloid race) + assimilation of minority σ-3 people from South China who originally came from Southeast Asia.
    “bro” who? The genetic differences between the Chinese and the Indians are even GREATER than that of the Whites and the Blacks!!
    BTW, the large increase from IQ 60s of original σ-1 mass of “India” to India’s current 81 was mainly due to 2 pre-historical large migrations and assimilations of the Dravidians and Aryans into the Sub Continent.
    The Dravidians were and still are a dark-skinned Caucasoid tribe from the Middle East who conquered the σ-1 mass and created Indus Valley Civilisation (inside modern day Pakistan).
    The Aryans (not Hitler’s propagandistic “blonde Aryans”) were, and some still are, dark hair fair-skinned Middle Eastern Caucasoid from modern day Afghanistan and Iran.
    Both these 2 groups had average IQ of at least high 80s at a time.

    Oh But Broooooo…… I guess there’s no need for war or any pursuit of art and ethics with people anymore because the hi Iq’s have got the inside knowledge of whats what. And look whose all grown up and figured out ip checks–guess world intelligence agencies have nothing on you, eh?

    Are you actually real? Really? Really? Explain, because you must have the ability you profess so loudly in having, how IQ results in intelligence and not speed pattern generation? And if you could, show the studies which link speed in regurgitating known pattern information and innovation and art. Common, there should be many examples right?

    Infact with such high IQ across the board for not thousands, but millions in west the rate at which all the streets looking the same and most people living the same suggests? Bacteria? trees?

    You confuse civil war within societies as a problem born out of low IQ instead of one resulting from high IQ and Hi IQ with docile behavior akin to herd animals.

    SD, or whatever your name is, predestination as a tool of domination works only by consent, what if we are tooo stupid bro? Broooo…

    I guess after this you will be having a conversation with the local flora and fauna to make sure they understand your new evolution pathways that you came up with on the toilet.

    Whats the real problem? White girls? Its usually something like this for ‘western orientals who get hooked on the whole IQ thing.

  59. jxie
    May 5th, 2012 at 08:49 | #59

    @Indian

    First, you need to make up your mind, did Chinese (prior to the 5th century) have no grammar, or just didn’t have a universal grammatical system? There are two problems that I can’t take you seriously:

    * Out of “most of the linguistic professors in Beijing”, can you name me one or two? Provide me the articles or books they published that endorse your theory, after you make up your mind?

    * Well I actually know a lot of the ancient Chinese texts prior to the 5th century, and a lot of after the 10th century — presumably during the centuries in between the unnamed cunning Indian monks took over the duty of transforming Chinese language, somehow I can’t figure out what transformation was done. Maybe you need to be less vague and be more specific, like name the names, tell me what “classes of literature”, what specific grammatical changes, in PinYin or in Hanzi if you like?

  60. May 5th, 2012 at 08:50 | #60

    @Indian
    Hi, I am the resident historian here. It is true that China has been importing Buddhist text since the Han dynasty but its influence is in the area of Buddhism. The Chinese language including written form and grammar was already well established by 500 BC. That’s why educated Chinese can still read the Original analects written by Confucian’s students and the “Art of war” by Sun Zi today. However, today China has the most complete collection of original Sanskrit Buddhist text anyway in the world. In case you don’t know, China also possessed the most sacred bones of Buddha in existence. In fact his skull bone was just exhibited last week in HK!

    However, there is indeed some migration of groups of Indian to China especially prominent during the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Kingdoms.

    Today if you see Chinese with the last name of Yuchi (尉遲). This would means his ancestors actually has the family name of Vijaya.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chinese-new-year-symbols-gods-of-gate.jpg

    If you look at the guy on the right, you can tell that he is of Indian origin. He is the most famous Yuchi (尉遲)in China. Although, all Chinese agree that he is as Chinese as anybody.

    Anyway, you have to provide evidence as to which professor of linguistics says Indian grammar influenced Chinese grammar because this is the first time I have heard about it. The core of the Chinese language is actually the written form. The tone might change over the borders or centuries but the written form stay the same, this is very unlike the various Indian languages. Also, grammar in the Chinese language is rather limited in a sense that ancient Chinese language is very concise that only a few characters is needed to express a concept or meaning.

  61. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 09:06 | #61

    @jxie

    jxie :
    @Indian
    First, you need to make up your mind, did Chinese (prior to the 5th century) have no grammar, or just didn’t have a universal grammatical system? There are two problems that I can’t take you seriously:
    * Out of “most of the linguistic professors in Beijing”, can you name me one or two? Provide me the articles or books they published that endorse your theory, after you make up your mind?
    * Well I actually know a lot of the ancient Chinese texts prior to the 5th century, and a lot of after the 10th century — presumably during the centuries in between the unnamed cunning Indian monks took over the duty of transforming Chinese language, somehow I can’t figure out what transformation was done. Maybe you need to be less vague and be more specific, like name the names, tell me what “classes of literature”, what specific grammatical changes, in PinYin or in Hanzi if you like?

    Look, don’t get worked up and have an episode, perhaps you need big helpful letters ‘DON’T PANIC’ right about now. The Chinese did not have a universal system of grammar–yes they had texts–yes they had a uniform way of reproducing them but it was more of a repetition drawing on exactly the same kind of relationships between the characters of previous texts. But no universal system of Grammar. Sometime after the han dynasty you guys started speaking differently to how you wrote.
    So you used Indian Grammar instead to figure out how the ancient texts were to be read.
    I don’t have time, study it yourself. You should look into phonetic history and chinese languages.

    Don’t panic.

  62. jxie
    May 5th, 2012 at 09:23 | #62

    @Indian

    Assuming you were an intelligent and open-minded person, and living in a world of geocentric belief, somebody laid down the heliocentric theory on you, and the elegant equations behind it, you would? Or you lived in the Newtonian world and the young Einstein laid the Relativity Theory on you, you would?

    To me, either one would be a wow moment in its purest form that makes life worth living for. For a New York minute I was expecting a mini-wow moment from you, then you gave me this:

    The Chinese did not have a universal system of grammar–yes they had texts–yes they had a uniform way of reproducing them but it was more of a repetition drawing on exactly the same kind of relationships between the characters of previous texts. But no universal system of Grammar. Sometime after the han dynasty you guys started speaking differently to how you wrote.

    Excusare me, you do realize what you wrote makes absolutely no sense to any Chinese speakers, right? I think we have both wasted too much of each other’s time already.

  63. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 09:43 | #63

    @jxie

    jxie :
    @Indian
    Assuming you were an intelligent and open-minded person, and living in a world of geocentric belief, somebody laid down the heliocentric theory on you, and the elegant equations behind it, you would? Or you lived in the Newtonian world and the young Einstein laid the Relativity Theory on you, you would?
    To me, either one would be a wow moment in its purest form that makes life worth living for. For a New York minute I was expecting a mini-wow moment from you, then you gave me this:

    The Chinese did not have a universal system of grammar–yes they had texts–yes they had a uniform way of reproducing them but it was more of a repetition drawing on exactly the same kind of relationships between the characters of previous texts. But no universal system of Grammar. Sometime after the han dynasty you guys started speaking differently to how you wrote.

    Excusare me, you do realize what you wrote makes absolutely no sense to any Chinese speakers, right? I think we have both wasted too much of each other’s time already.

    Lol, sorry brooo,/jk– I can see where I lost you. The chinese after the Han dynasty had a change of accent, as in they started drifting tonally. After applying Indian Grammar laws on these same texts you started reading them out loud with an Sanskrit accent. And have continued doing so–da da doom! dramatic curtain!

    Wouldn’t expect any wow moments if I was you–its not that type of yuga.

  64. Indian
    May 5th, 2012 at 10:12 | #64

    Ray :
    @Indian
    Hi, I am the resident historian here. It is true that China has been importing Buddhist text since the Han dynasty but its influence is in the area of Buddhism. The Chinese language including written form and grammar was already well established by 500 BC. That’s why educated Chinese can still read the Original analects written by Confucian’s students and the “Art of war” by Sun Zi today. However, today China has the most complete collection of original Sanskrit Buddhist text anyway in the world. In case you don’t know, China also possessed the most sacred bones of Buddha in existence. In fact his skull bone was just exhibited last week in HK!
    However, there is indeed some migration of groups of Indian to China especially prominent during the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Kingdoms.
    Today if you see Chinese with the last name of Yuchi (尉遲). This would means his ancestors actually has the family name of Vijaya.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chinese-new-year-symbols-gods-of-gate.jpg
    If you look at the guy on the right, you can tell that he is of Indian origin. He is the most famous Yuchi (尉遲)in China. Although, all Chinese agree that he is as Chinese as anybody.
    Anyway, you have to provide evidence as to which professor of linguistics says Indian grammar influenced Chinese grammar because this is the first time I have heard about it. The core of the Chinese language is actually the written form. The tone might change over the borders or centuries but the written form stay the same, this is very unlike the various Indian languages. Also, grammar in the Chinese language is rather limited in a sense that ancient Chinese language is very concise that only a few characters is needed to express a concept or meaning.

    Sorry Brother didn’t see your post–look I don’t really want to go and trace so many references , you seem to like wiki I’ll point you to one of their pages but, you being a historian!, you know information is pulled from a wide spectrum and analyzed–you’d have to go into Mauryan policts to try to understand the rationale of what I am referring to–the arthasustra is good but I don’t think there are full copies in English–so, here is the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Chinese_phonology

  65. SP
    May 5th, 2012 at 10:24 | #65

    What “Indian Grammar”?! The fellow is diluted beyond redeem. Thank God “grammar” was spelt correctly though…

    “Indian grammar” is as funny as “world’s grammar” literally, “Fishes’ wings” conceptually (some fishes do have wings while some don’t), and “Sub-Sahara’s Rocket Science” intellectually. It makes one cringe.

    What does “Indian” mean here btw? It means zero, zilch, since “Indian” was a recent “geographical term” invented by the British “no more a united nation than the Equator”, to borrow a line from Winston Churchill.

    “Indian”, for that matter “India”, means no single concrete thing!

    So called “Indian” contains perhaps 1000 different languages (not only dialects) and 10,000 different religions, rat gods , cow saints and snake lords… only “official languages of India” there are about 2 dozens… Which are “Indian” and which are not?

    Is Dravidian grammar “Indian grammar “?

    Is σ-1 grammar (assume that they did invent speaking language as sophisticated and orderly as other people do in grammar) “Indian”?

    Is Hindi grammar “Indian grammar ” or Hindi+ σ-1 grammar 2.0 ?

    Is Punjabi grammar “Indian grammar “?

    Is the Untouchable’s grammar “Indian grammar”?

    Is Persian grammar “Indian grammar “?

    … etc.etc.

    They all are?

    And they all NOT?!

    …because they are totally unrelated different grammars, if any, created originally by totally different friggin people of avg IQ ranging from mid 60s to high 80 , meaning completely different orders and norms…

    The same as “Indian history”, which is merely a random yet partial collection of “Homo Erectus history”+ “Dravidian history” + “Australian aboriginal history” + “Turk history” + “Persian history” + “Mongolian history”+ “British history”…and so on and so forth.

    “Indian grammar”? [hitwall:]

    Welcome to the wild, unlimited and unstoppable random bullcr@p of IQ 81’s world!

  66. zack
    May 5th, 2012 at 12:20 | #66

    @Indian
    lol wow, you didn’t bother addressing my points and instead went directly to ad hominems; seems to be a case of transference right there. Fellas, this is a classic case of the inferiority complex i was talking about earlier.
    First of you your idea of an ‘India’ is an artificial construct, it didn’t exist before the British came and forced the melding together of difference castes, language and cultures, and it can even be argued that current Indian nationalism is as much a tool of Delhi to prevent the utter collapse of India than any genuine sense of nationhood. Tell me again, how are the lovely insurgencies in India this time of year?

  67. raventhorn
    May 5th, 2012 at 14:40 | #67

    @Indian

    Be warned, your 1st comment started out with ad hom attacks, and racist label, clearly with the intent to disrupt civilized discussion.

    if you continue with such remarks, your comments will be moderated.

    This warning is your 1st and final, and not subject to debate.

  68. Robert Thomas
    May 8th, 2012 at 04:50 | #68

    @raventhorn

    Raventhorn, as you are referring here to moderation of offensive remarks made by users, I would like to bring the following posts to your attention:

    ‘Crossing the gender divide’ post 1.

    ‘US forget 「respecting Rule of Law」, full on 「Vigilante Human Rights」’ posts 16 and 20.

    Many thanks.

    PS – For future reference, is there anywhere that users can access a copy of your policy on moderating.

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