It is frequently claimed that Winston Churchill once said “democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others”. Now that Donald Trump is on the verge of locking up the nomination as Republican candidate for POTUS, and U.S. surely is on the cusp to become fascist if he wins the nomination and the resulting election, I wonder if that statement should remove the qualifier. One TV commentator said in a daze when analyzing the Nevada cuscus that Republican Party just suffered a hostile takeover. I wonder whether U.S. will have a willing takeover as Germany did in 1932 by Adolf Hitler. Some may consider my sentiment alarmist, but given the angers from both the right and left exemplified by Trump and Sanders and the high turnouts in those primaries I think my worries may become nightmare. Let’s enumerate the promises flowed from Trump, build a wall on the border to Mexico and Mexico better pay for it, deport 12 million illegal aliens. 35% tariffs of goods from China, take oils from Iraq and maybe Iran for U.S. military expenses in Middle East, and I am sure soon will be threats against China. Surely those campaign promises are meaningless, or are they? And I thought I am too old to worry about climate warming which will raise sea levels 20 feet in a few hundred years.
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danielxu says
When Churchill said that, he was not aware of Gov. System with Chinese characteristic.
It is moot point, the problem is when the West assumes Liberal Democracy is the universal truth, it becomes another religion that need proselytising, imposing to other.
Grandparents come with bible in the hand and now Grandchildren come back with Liberal Democracy book, preaching and converting other people.
Donald Trump talks like Hitler, bombastic and bullying, his grandparents were German, I see the making another Hilter made in USA with imported stuff from Germany.
IF he gets into White House, The Chinese say “May you have an interesting life”.
Allen says
I disagree.
I love Trump. Actually, let me paraphrase, I don’t like Trump. But is Obama, or Hillary, or any other any better?
Remember throughout the years as presidents from opposing parties come and go, they engage in pretty much the same foreign policy (kill, kill, kill) and domestic policy (blame, blame, blame).
When Obama came in, he was awarded the Nobel. Bush is accused by many as a war criminal. But now it’s not unreasonable to accuse Obama of being a war criminal also.
I say let’s elect Donald. You think he’ll actually build a wall … and if he does, perhaps money spent there is better spent than on the next aircraft carrier… or more nuclear missiles, etc.
Just my 2 cents…
N.M.Cheung says
@danielxu
I quoted Churchill as irony. If in the last 100 years we produce 2 Hitler by way of democracy, then democracy must be the worst possible system period.
N.M.Cheung says
@Allen
I do not share your optimistic view. When the U.S. spy plane collided with Chinese fighter off Hainan Island, Neocons were already targeting China as enemy number one, 9/11 diverted that, resulting Iraq War further push China off the radar. Obama is making noises now with TPP and South China Sea with small military provocations. I expect Hillary to show she’s not a woman, but a real MAN by pumping up military and expect her to challenge China. I gave her a pass on Iraq vote as she was a senator from New York, she couldn’t afford to vote no, but she’s a realist and a traditional liberal, and I expect her to concentrate in reviving economy and on race. But make no mistake, Trump once elected, can’t afford to back down on his boastings of making America great again, and where do you think he will exert that? Certainly not by building a wall with Mexico, but making China enemy number 1 again. I just hope if he’s elected he might get bog down by trying to subjugate Iran and North Korea instead of China, which will be a tragedy for human race.
Allen says
@N.M.Cheung
I actually don’t buy the neocons bad argument. I think both parties are equally bloody and bad. I definitely don’t think Democratic party is the party of peace while Republicans are party of war – or that liberals are pro-economy while conservatives are pro-war….
Black Pheonix says
@Allen
I share Allen’s view that both parties are bad, for America. But in terms of dealing with China and the World, I think Trump and the Republicans are the bigger loose cannon.
The fact that Trump would suggest building walls, and deporting immigrants, ban refugees, is a warning to China and the World what craziness he would resort to.
Democrats, irrational as they are, are not nearly as irrational as GOP and Trump.
Democrats and Liberals, at least will try harder to hide their racism and neocolonialism.
GOP will elect guys like Trump and be openly proud of their own political incorrectness.
pug_ster says
Having the Donald running is certainly entertaining. People voting for him not because they genuinely like him, but people think that he has the best chance to win. Agreed that America’s democracy is fake as the candidates they field are paid by the establishment so they don’t really represent you.
N.M.Cheung says
@pug_ster
It may be entertaining, but in a way also frightening. I remember the book “The Dead Zone” by Stephen King, which was made to a movie in 1983, in which a hustler very similar to Trump rises to power by tapping into the anger and discontent of people and threaten a nuclear holocaust. At present the power to be in Republican Party lost control and in disbelief, like a chemical reaction went into chain reaction. It remains to be seen whether Democrats can stop him.
N.M.Cheung says
I went to IMDB to check on the movie, “The Dead Zone”, and to my surprise found a dozen postings similar to my feeling on Trump as the villain Greg Stillson, but most of the postings were from December of last year, before he became the de facto front runner now.
pug_ster says
@N.M.Cheung
Agreed. Going back to what I said. Trump is starting getting endorsements from other Republicans with the similar attitude.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/chris-christie-endorses-donald-trump-president-n526716
Quoting from the article:
“The single most important thing for the Republican Party is to nominate the person who gives us the best chance to beat Hillary Clinton,” Christie said at a news conference in Fort Worth, Texas. “I can guarantee that the one person Hillary and Bill Clinton don’t want to see on that stage come next September is Donald Trump.”
“He is rewriting the playbook of American politics because he is providing strong leadership that is not dependent upon the status quo. The best person to beat Hillary Clinton in November is undoubtedly Donald Trump,” Christie added.
This is truly frightening sign why people are endorsing him, because they believe that Trump can beat Hillary.
Allen says
I need to write a post about Trump.
I do like him…
A bunch of media is against him: the Economist, New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Fox News, Huffington Post…
And whatever I read about him: what is so bad about him?
Beating Hillary is a good thing. She is hypocritical yet smart. She is ruthless. And she hates China.
As for Trump? Well he wants to put a tariff on China. Fine. Tariffs will hurt America more than China … so I don’t think he will do it eventually. He wants China to raise its currecy? That’s great! That means Chinese companies will be able to buy American assets at a cheaper price.
I don’t think Trump will play the S. China Sea in a way that Obama or Hillary had played. He is just not that ideological. He thinks Iraq was a mess. He is probably the only who would say the U.S. made a mistake. Saddam was better than disorder. I don’t see him talk ideological nonsense about the value of democracy.
Trump is practical. He is not super religious or ideological.
THAT’S A GOOD THING.
And about that famous wall? What’s wrong with wanting to build a wall?
Trump wants to build a wall because he thinks that’s the best way to enforce the laws already on the books. What’s wrong with enforcing laws on the books??? He is not saying we should have no immigration from the South. He is just saying if they come they must be legal.
Now, I have given him flap about characterizing all immigrants as rapists or criminals, but I don’t think he is saying no immigrants. He is only saying no illegal immigration.
If he had proposed enforcing laws against immigration, would people be so against him? What about building a fleet of drones to repel illegal immigration?
About the no new muslim in the nation thing … I’ve also given him flap … but not because that is per se racist. I don’t think it is.
Imagine if we know Africa has some serious pandemic that we understand little of, is it wrong to say let’s stop all people flow from there? At a certain threshold of seriousness, it must be ok.
Now imagine if the same pandemic is sweeping through the Arab world … or Islamic world (for whatever reason), what’s wrong with saying, ok, let’s hold everything for a few months until we understand what’s going on?
Terrorism … or more specially, radicalism, is a kind of pandemic … from certain perspectives.
Again … what’s wrong with what Trump is saying. The U.S. is already pursuing similar kind policy – profiling against Muslims and killing Muslims in Islamic lands…
Trump is at least honest. He points to a problem and purports to solve it. The current regime / system paints a rosy picture, and solves the problem off the books, off the media, within the rosy picture of human rights and democracy.
I like Trump. He is the best thing America has seen for a while. So many in the U.S. are against him because he is outside the system. But that’s what’s so good about it. The current system is so rotten, I believe Trump will be an improvement, whatever his faults are.
N.M.Cheung says
@Allen
“I like Trump. He is the best thing America has seen for a while. So many in the U.S. are against him because he is outside the system. But that’s what’s so good about it. The current system is so rotten, I believe Trump will be an improvement, whatever his faults are.”
Allen,
Let me explain why I disagree with you. What you said I totally agree with, yet why do I feel disaster is just around the corner? Trump is the culmination and limitation of so called democracy/oligarchy hybrid. People are angry and feel powerless and helpless. He channels that anger from the right as much as Sanders from the left. He says things that are common sense, such as Iraq War, Bush’s failure, people with no health insurance dying in the street, which no republican candidates dare to whisper, not even main stream media or democrats challenge them, yet he’s immune from those remarks, that tells you something about the mood of the electorate. Even long time immigrant like me are ambivalent on the question of wall and border control, but those things like wall or 35% tariffs are not the issue. Trump is a total outsider, a wild card with his own wealth, apart from other oligarchs, and to your point it might not be bad to burn down the country with the mob, yet with nuclear weapons I shudder to think about the consequences to the rest of the world.
Hitler wanted to make German/white race great. Now Trump wants America/white race to be great again. Trump is a carnival barker, he has no program to achieve this except naked power.
Last night Bill Maher interviewed Michael Hayden on his show, General Hayden was former head of CIA and NSA, he tried to reassure Maher on the Trump issue. He said U.S. Army will refuse to obey unlawful orders, in essence bureaucracy will slow down any abrupt slide to anarchy. Yet given My Lai and Abu Ghraib I have my doubts on military be the last bulwark.
pug_ster says
@Allen
I’m sorry to say that Trump is no different than an snake oil salesman who is probably more polarizing figure than Frank Underwood. I do agree with you about the him better than any democrats in terms of being Anti-China though.
@N.M.Cheung
Funny that you mention Germany. The Donald’s grandfather Frederick Trump is from Kallstadt, Germany. America is going down the toilet and if Donald is elected president, it will accelerate the process.
N.M.Cheung says
Some may think I was over the top comparing Trump to Hitler, here is a quote from Guardian, that 2 former Mexico presidents compare Trump to Hitler.
“Felipe Calderon and Vicente Fox said the outspoken presidential candidate was stirring up hate like the Nazi dictator.”
Allen says
@N.M.Cheung
Shrug…
In this day, we compare to Hitler anything we don’t like. For America, Russians have Nazi tenancies. For Russians, Americans have Nazi tenancies. For Arabs, Israel is the Nazi reincarnate. For Israelis, Arabs – to the extent they profess the elimination of Israel – are the Nazi reincarnate.
Ukrainians are freedom fighters to the Americans, Nazis to the Russians. China is Nazi to the Japanese … but it is Japanese and Americans, who are writing WWII history, who seem to be reviving fascism.
We can go round and round…
It’s like imperialism. To me, that should be something humanity can unite to say is wrong. But no … Indians don’t think Japanese Imperialism is any bad… Tibetan exiles welcome Western imperialism but analogize Chinese rule to imperialism …. You can go on and on … Imperialism like nazism like human rights like freedom like democracy have been watered down and politicized … means NADA as a political term…
Nazi is such a political term. How come we don’t have one for the Japanese…? Again a political result.
When people compare someone to a Nazi, often it says more about the person making the comparison, rather than the person compared…
Allen says
@pug_ster
I don’t see the logic. To me, if America is going down the toilet, it will go down in despite of Donald, not because of Donald…
Exactly what of Donald’s make American great program will hasten the demise of America?
pug_ster says
@Allen
I find this article interesting that a good number of Chinese supporting Trump and like I said, if Trump would be elected, it would be good for China. If Trump would be elected, I would predict that the US would pull back a significant portion of Obama’s Asian Pivot policy and especially the SCS issue whereas Hillary would continue Obama’s Asian Pivot policies.
http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/could-a-donald-trump-presidency-improve-us-china-ties-chinese-netizens-say-yes/
I am ambivalent about Trump being elected at this point as Trump is just as honest as Obama/Clinton. Clinton would probably concentrate on domestic issues and try to balance the budget whereas Trump would spend more money and give it to the 1% so yes, Trump would bring America down the toilet faster than Clinton in my opinion.
Allen says
@pug_ster
Now we are into straight political territory.
In my mind Clinton is bought by all the established special interests – including Wall Street. Also Democrats traditionally are known for bigger budget. So I see no reason why she would try to balance things more than Trump.
pug_ster says
@Allen
While Clinton is brought by all the established special interests, but Trump IS the special interests. Trump will concentrate on war against Muslims…. errr terrorists while Hillary will outsource its foreign policy to terrorists and vassal states.
N.M.Cheung says
@Allen
It would be short sighted to compare whether Trump is better for China versus Clinton. To me whether Clinton will provoke China in South China Sea is rather minor thing. Trump will be a disaster for China, U.S., and the world. People think the things Trump said is boastful and will never come to pass, that he will be restrained by the bureaucracy. To me the world has come to an inflection point as 1932. For a megalomaniac like Trump, winning is everything whether the world goes down with him or not, and the U.S. is the major nuclear power. It’s not a surprise he was endorsed by KKK, Jean Marie Le Pen, and other white supremacy groups. Sure he will accelerate the decline of West, but the question is whether he will bring the rest of the world down with him. Now even Republicans are bailing ship, Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska just announced that he will not support Trump if he was nominated.
qeter says
What foreign spectators fail to appreciate about trump is that what he thinks is largely irrelevant as to why people support him. Many in america see trump as an insult to a government that they feel has betrayed/abandoned them to special interest groups. I suppose one could view trump as a barometer of how much actual Americans have given up on their republic; even if they aren’t fully aware of it.
pug_ster says
http://www.cjr.org/analysis/the_medias_trump_conundrum.php
I thought this is a good article about Trump’s rise is not because of his policy, but rather the Western Propaganda feeding off Trump’s provocative comments for ratings. Western Propaganda doesn’t seem to care about what the potential candidate to do for the country, but Western Propaganda wants to hear what is coming out from Tump’s mouth next like some Schadenfreude soap opera. Even the CBS’ CEO admitted that Trump is “good for us economically.”
https://theintercept.com/2016/02/29/cbs-donald-trump/
Like I said, I thought this whole election is entertaining, and I hate to admit to watch this Political election propaganda circus.
pug_ster says
I thought this is an interesting article of why Republicans fail and Trump is rising.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/02/ross_douthat_says_obama_created_trump_that_s_nuts.html
Republicans has been a party of “NO” for the past 8 years ever since Obama has been running and has been trying to stop Obama at every step and turn, even if Obama is running is more like a moderate and policies that Obama put out that is favored by some Republicans. I find it funny that Rubio and Cruz telling others that they are trying to unite the party like Regan and Lincoln when they are the very same obstructionists with no ideas in the first place. As crazy as Trump is, he does put some ideas and direction of what the country should be going to. Republican party is falling apart right before our eyes and the GOP party leaders start realizing that they have a real disconnect between them and their voters.
qeter says
@pug_ster
Indeed, it also seems to me that the GOP is falling apart because they stopped being a viable party for governance. That being said i’m interested in how congress will interact with a president trump; will everyone hate him or will he be strangely bi-partisan?
Allen says
I find it curious why people here (and most every media as well) would characterize Trump’s phenomenon as GOP falling apart.
GOP is falling apart in the sense that the electorate is voting in a way not expected or approved by the party elders. But it is not falling apart in the sense that the result is a reflection of the people.
This reminds me of people in the West talking about how the West lost China in the aftermath of WWII. China was lost from the perspective of those who wanted to control China … in the West … and later in the Soviet Union. But it was not lost from the perspective of the average Chinese people. The Chinese people wanted a revolution. They wanted more equality. They wanted more independence on the world stage. They wanted to “stand up.” This doesn’t mean Communist China did everything swell per se – there were lots of hardships – but to characterize it as “lost” reflects more of the people using those terms than China itself.
I feel the same about those who characterize the disintegration of the Republican Party.
Why don’t we characterize Clinton’s successes in the nomination process as the demise of the Democratic Party? If Democratic Party stands for equality and people over special interests, then it ought to go for Sanders…
Also, the reason Clinton won yesterday is because of black support. But black support her mostly for her personality – her background – her affiliation of Obama. That kind of character reverence seems ok for Clinton but not Trump.
Weird…
So who does the Republican Party belong to? The elders/establishment or the people?
N.M.Cheung says
@Allen
So who does the Republican Party belong to? The elders/establishment or the people?
Neither Democratic or Republican Party belong to the people. Republican Party is falling apart because they have lost control. Trump has initiated a hostile takeover. The quadrennial façade of election doesn’t challenge the basic control of the Oligarchs. You may think it’s the will of the people, but pure democracy when exercised can be pure mayhem especially for ignorant masses. I do not have high opinion on democracy. It can produce Salem witch trials, it produce lynching in the Old South, German people in their despair elected Hitler in 1932, and today with nuclear trigger that can have consequences. With demographic running against white people, Trump is the last gasp and some have welcome the coming of Rapture.
qeter says
@N.M.Cheung
what would you have had Germany do?
pug_ster says
@Allen
Your metaphor about China “standing up” is because of a catalyst, like Mao. The rise of Trump is a wakeup call to Republicans that people can’t be taken advantage of. Clinton is hardly a demise of the Democratic Party as she is in card carrying member of the Democrats and will continue Obama’s moderate stance whereas Sanders didn’t get the support from the Democratic superdelegates.
Allen says
@pug_ster
For the same exact thing you said, I’d say the Democratic party has fallen into demise.
Listen to Sanders again … he is saying the Democratic Party should be the party of the people, not special interests. I don’t see how people can openly disagree with that.
But if that’s true, then you – after agreeing that Clinton represents the oligarachy not people – should agree that Clinton’s rise would be another sign that the Democratic Party has fallen into demise.
pug_ster says
@Allen
The difference between Sanders and Trump is that Sanders didn’t step out of line and went against the Democratic establishment whereas Trump went against the Republican establishment. He ran as an independent in Vermont yet he is running as a democrat as the presidential candidate because the rigged electoral system would not allowed him to run as an independent in other states. Thus the reason why the democratic establishment superdelegates voted for Hillary overwhelmingly despite Sanders didn’t fall out of line so he is getting the short end of the stick. If for some reason Sanders decides to go nuclear and fall out of line from the Democrats, we will see the same kind of demise also. In the meantime, I disagree with you and the Democrats are intact.
Allen says
@pug_ster
I completely disagree. Whose party are we talking about? Trump has “fallen out of line” with the Republican Party … ??? But remember it is the Republican voters voting for him! He has only “fallen out of line” with the establishment / elders / oligarchs that have fallen out of touch with the people!
What of that? I call this rejuvenation … not demise!!!
Allen says
@N.M.Cheung
About those neocons that are today’s war criminals…
Here is a letter from a who’s who of those neocons attacking Trump…
I really like the fact that Trump doesn’t seem to love Japan that much. It’s probably the true feeling of the American people. But the press and oligarchy would have Americans believe it’s natural to love Japan and hate China…
pug_ster says
@Allen
I wouldn’t call this a rejuvenation as Trump seems to be the more moderate Republican trying to ‘hijack’ the establishment whom are mostly conservatives. Also, I don’t agree with you about the ‘rejuvenation’ message as a significant number of republicans are not conservatives. I suppose that this kind of revolt (or rejuvenation as you call it) is much like how he infighting between the moderates and conservatives.
Talking about the Democrats, I want to touch on Obama 8 years ago when he was elected. He basically ran as an progressive (socialist) but when he got in as president is was more like a moderate. Many of his promises of universal health care, closing gitmo, stopping unnecessary wars, going after wall street thugs, and etc… wasn’t even fulfilled. There should be a revolt within Democratic party now since Clinton is going to get nominated whereas sanders is getting the shaft.
Allen says
@pug_ster
I think you I and agree that Democratic Party is in demise then?
As for whether Republican Party is “hijacked” vs “rejuvenated” – I disagree with your premise that the Republican Party ought to be the party of “conservatives.”
If I remember my history correctly: the Republican Party of Lincoln were the “progressives” while the Democratic Party then was the part of the “conservatives.”
For various reasons, that shifted slowly from after the Civil War to the WWII. But the Democratic Party as a liberal party and Republicans as conservatives – that’s a more recent phenomenon starting in the civil rights era of the 1960’s.
So who is to say the Republican Party ought to be the “conservative” party? That’s rhetoric of the establishment! The rhetoric “hijack” is the view the establishment wish to promote! I’d leave all that out. It’s a change… approved by the people … that we should all agree on.